Thread 96885732

People always shit on 4e, but at least it gave us cantrips so spell-casters wouldn't be totally worthless at low levels, something that many future tabletops stole from it...

4e is a great game

>>96885753
It's not.
But cantrips were a great idea
And some mmos should have used designs for tanks from it, instead of coming with shit like monk in fellowship, that doesn't even work

>>96885732 (OP)
>>96885753
4e was objectively shit, but I'd be lying if I didn't say it was the most fun edition for building a character.

>>96885732 (OP)
Cantrips were introduced in 3e, what are you talking about?

>>96885800
Cantrips were actually introduced by Gary Gygax in 1e.

>>96885800
Cantrips were introduced in 2e. They became 0th Level spells in 3.0 and At Wills in you know where.

>>96885732 (OP)
So many things that 5e players praise are lifted from 4e, just with the names changed so that people don't realize.

>>96885732 (OP)
It's a fun edition and if you hate it you're either coming from 3.5 and expected more of the same or you're parroting someone else's opinion.
4e introduced a lot of things 5efags like and now it's being copied by both 5e and PF2

>>96885830
Objectively bad. The whole system turned the game into a cheesy wannabe Munchkin. Still, if that's what you want, it isn't a failed franchise, just not good at all as a TTRPG.

>>96885862
"It's not an rpg, it's a_____"

It's not, but it did have to compete with all of these things! An edition of D&D realizing this was why it changed so radically all at once when it was usually the Best Game of 1977 or 1987, but ten or more years after the fact.

(In contrast, FASA realized that Shadowrun was competing with a lot of non-RPG factors back in 1996 or 1997. Typically, the publisher of D&D is still slow to the punch.)

>>96885931
This is the spirit that got us 5e. I agree that its not a bad game. Thinking of it competing on that level is an interesting view, but it's swayed by the fact the audience was already baked in after 3.5e.

The more that I think of it, I see Hasbro grabbing for cash more than anything else. Still, I'll stick to this game until I can't anymore. I already homebrew tons of shit for my players, crafting and magical plants.

>>96885732 (OP)
Wizards are only worthless at low level if you use evocation. Sleep is one of the most busted spells in D&D to where a normal wizard has a very real chance of killing an ogre 1v1.

>>96885800
Cantrips were still limited-use in pre-4e editions.

>>96885823
How can cantrips have been introduced in 2e when they were already in 1e?

>>96885732 (OP)
Oh boy it's another
>NOOO I'M USELESS IF I CAN'T USE MAGIC IN LITERALLY EVERY SITUATION TO CONCEPTUALLYSOLVE LITERALLY ANY PROBLEM
Gandalf is useless because he had to lower himself to using a mere sword to fight. Fucking loser.

>>96888217
Gandalf was demigod who could slaughter hundreds in melee, so very bad example
using acid spray twice and then contribute nothing until next rest, was fucking bad.

>>96885830
It's not a fucking RPG. It's a board game that turns everything into a codified roll and actively punishes players for trying to be clever and circumvent rules interactions like they're supposed to do in all RPGs. 4E died for a reason, only people who don't know what an RPG is liked it.

>>96889190

No, it's good. Casters should not be able to cast themselves out of every problem.

>>96885732 (OP)
pathfinder and 5e ritual systems was taken directly from 4e too.

>>96885732 (OP)
No, people don't shit on 4e. Lemmings do.

>>96885732 (OP)
>people shit on 4e but at least it gave us {literally one of the shittiest things from it}

>>96885825
This. Literally just open the Essentials books. The way classes are presented has not changed (except instead of a cleanly formatted encounter power that you can use 3 times before a short rest they have to write long paragraphs conveying the same information).
5e's super cool "flat math" is just Dark Sun's inherent enhancement bonus - half level scaling.

>>96885862
>The whole system turned the game into a cheesy wannabe Munchkin.
>this totally didn't happen in 3rd at the latest
See, this is how we know you're a nogaems.

>>96889444
Riddle me this: How are these problems in 4e but not problems in 3rd? PF is the one where you need to take five feats to wipe your ass.

>>96889464
Don't be retarded, mang. 5e rituals work very differently from 4e ones.

>>96889901
What, no, 3.5 didn't have any of that.
It's not like loose wording and poorly thought abilities lead to the most insane shit being posted on the CharOp boards for the 3.5 era.

Like yeah, everyone knows Punpun. But with the loss of the old forums, we've lost a lot of other broken shit, like the Ruby Knight Vindicator build that's entire thing was throwing people far enough that they (if this were earth), would leave orbit.

I wish leader cantrips had survived. Do a little less damage with an attack, that also then boosts the big fighty guy's attack or movement in some way was a great concept

>>96885732 (OP)
It gave them damage cantrips (at-wills), which were just a more flavorful way of giving every spellcaster a crossbow. The cool cantrips are the ones where you create sounds, flashing lights or make it appear that someone else has shit their pants. Only wizards got some of these in 4e.

>>96885732 (OP)
Is that supposed to be some amazing innovation? You guys know there are other ways of designing games right? lol

>>96888217
Yes, retard. The guy whose character concept is fights with a sword uses his his sword to fight, and the guy whose concept is fights with magic uses his magic to fight.

>>96889447
Fighters shouldn't be able to fight.

>>96889444
Not like they're supposed to do.

>>96889944
You just described the game being what you said it wasn't

>>96889444
Trying to circumvent the rules isn't clever and it isn't what you're supposed to do in RPGs.

>>96885732 (OP)
It is just too complicated to play offline.
The amount of conditional modifiers can get WILD at even mid levels if you aren't using some kind of software to keep track of all your shit.

but
>>96885794
You had so many possible character builds it was so fun. There was almost no boring round of combat possible once you have a few per-encounter or daily abilities to choose from.
Tell me that 4e Monk was not the coolest Monk in any game that has ever had it as an option.

>>96885732 (OP)
To me what is hilarious is that Hit Dice do exactly what anti-4e people said Healing Surges do and no one bitches about it because of reasons.

>play 4e
>time to feel bad ass when you start with 30x the hit poonts of an average orc warrior

>>96890769
Hello saar

>>96885732 (OP)
2e players have fun memories of when their spellcaster ran out of spells and had to resort to awkwardly trying to fight.
That said, at least a few cantrips a day like in 1e/3e is probably a good way to go about it.

>>96891041
5e hit dice are free out-of-combat healing, a bonus that is often forgotten.
4e healing surges are a hard cap on how much healing you can receive in a day because the encounter math would break down. You can't even drink a potion of healing if you don't have unspent healing surges.

>>96890466
The Psion got 1 depending on their specialization too and one specific Druid from Essentials also had fluffy cantrips. You could get a feat to get some on any character with the Dark Sun book. But yes all "caster" Controllers and Leaders should have gotten some fluff cantrips. And the mechanical cantrips Wizard got later like Chameleon Mask and Suggestion should have been Utility Powers instead.

>>96891167
A level 1 4e Fighter realistically has between 25 and 32 HP. A level 1 Soldier type monster has 28-33 HP and a level 1 Brute has 33-38 HP. You have no idea what you are talking about.

>>96891036
I found the modifiers easy to track. It was either 2 or 5, and maybe a flat ability score modifier from a buff. Basically 2 things to remember if they were even in effect.

>>96885732 (OP)
>People always shit on 4e
For good reason.
>but at least it gave us cantrips so spell-casters wouldn't be totally worthless at low levels
Christ I hate dealing with people who have no idea what they're talking about. The entire point of magic classes was that it was risk vs reward. You're shit at earlier levels, but once you get up to speed you're amazing. Giving them cantrips gives them a completely different feeling than when they don't, which is why I ban them in 5e.

>>96895797
>The entire point of magic classes was that it was risk vs reward
What a stupid statement
>Giving them cantrips gives them a completely different feeling than when they don't
Gameplay wise? No way. It's literally on same level as shooting things with crossbow, maybe little better with scaling. It just feels better!
> which is why I ban them in 5e.
You can't ban anything because you never play games

>>96887776
They're not in 1e core, and if its not core its not real.

>>96891388
You said the game didn't have munchkin shit, and then you mentioned a bunch of munchkin in the game. You're the Indian here, clearly.

>>96891036
can't even do essence burn+ gungdo gear lol. shit monk

>>96891546
>fun memories of the game arbitrarily deciding they stop getting to have fun
Stockholm.

>>96895797
No, the point of picking "guy who uses magic" is to be a guy who uses magic. Not a guy who mostly uses a crossbow.

>>96895797
>Banning cantrips in 5e
So you don't play games at all.
Opinion discarded.

>>96896024
Read it again, ESL-kun. Especially the "it's not like" part. Threeaboo really ARE retarded...

>>96895949
"Core" is a 3abooism. Look at TSR's tomfoolery.

>>96894155
>level 1 Soldier type monster has 28-33 HP and a level 1 Brute has 33-38 HP. You have no idea what you are talking about.
So all the orcs at helms deep were Brutes and Soldiers? What's the point of minions then?

>>96896335
Minions were an attempt to create enemies that "go down in one hit" without the need to track damage done to them in theory they would have hp equal to the average damage an At-Will would inflict at that level. The idea was that the same monster could be represented as a level 1 Solo, level 5 Elite, level 10 Standard or level 15 Minion depending on the level of the party fighting them.

3egroids really were the worst thing to ever happen to RPGs weren't they

Is this the 4e thread? Neat. Anyone know if there's a good third party content / homebrew site out there?
>nobody made 4e content because muh license or whatever
Plenty of people made it, just less than 3.5e. I've found a few things here and there but idk if there's a good place to find lots of it compiled together.

>>96896272
It's pretty cool that they continued with early editions while publishing later ones. Why alienate part of your target fanbase and potential players for the new one, after all?

>>96896032
Nah, it's the kind of fun stuff you talk about right after a combat or session is over. "Whew, had to resort to quaterstaff for half that fight".

>>96897492
No.

>>96885732 (OP)
Homogenizing classes isn't a good thing. Casters being useless on some turns and turning the tide of battle on other is a feature, not a bug.

>>96897909
No, it's bad design, and the alternative is not homogeneity.

>>96897909
The problem with that is in 3.x, only badly built casters had "useless turns". You were always strong. All payoff and no risk or cost.
If we're talking TSR era D&D, sure, it had a solid divide. But the only WotC D&D to make something good of it was 4e, since both 3.x and 5.x decided to "smooth over" casters with "QoL" that just made them overpowered.
4e was a solid, well designed answer to the myriad of issues that plagued 3.x, and the many complaints put against it were just as valid against 3.x as against 4e, if not more so.

>>96885732 (OP)
True, which is why we’ve got a general here and people actually discuss the game

Oh wait

>>96898243
>board is infested with schizos and bots that immediately shit up any discussion of 4e
>le why don't people discuss it? it must be le bad?

>>96897349
I don't know if there is a dedicated site but the 4e Discord seems to be the hub of essentially everything 4e and it does have the guy who does the most homebrew stuff. He's also jiggered his stuff into working with the character builder.

>>96896820
>The idea was that the same monster could be represented as a level 1 Solo, level 5 Elite, level 10 Standard or level 15 Minion depending on the level of the party fighting them.
So if Aragon and friends arrived at the battle of Helms Deep, all the orc minions would suddenly be 15th level to match, and the Rohan army would get btfo? How does that make sense?

>>96899834
Because it was a retarded choice of approach to minions.
4e had a lot of shit like this - get some decent idea and then implement it in the most retarded way, and present it to the players and GM in even worse way.

Most games that do minions group them in stacks and track their HP per stack, a lot of the time with bonuses on attack depending on stack size. But 4e insistence on grid gameplay gets in the way of that for obvious reasons, it could be worked around but you'd need to invest more effort into rules than just slapping "1 HP" on minions and be done with it.

>>96899834
Reading comprehension, retard. An enemy that is a boss to a level 1 party, would be an elite to a level 5 party, which would be a standard rank and file enemy to a level 10 party, and effortless cannon fodder to a level 15 party. The levels are player-relative.

>>96899964
>Because it was a retarded choice of approach to minions.
If you lack the most basic ability to think, yes.
>4e had a lot of shit like this - get some decent idea and then implement it in the most retarded way, and present it to the players and GM in even worse way.
Presentation and clarity was by far 4e's greatest strength. If you somehow misread or misunderstood something then you lack basic literacy.
>Most games that do minions group them in stacks and track their HP per stack, a lot of the time with bonuses on attack depending on stack size.
Functionally speaking that is exactly how they work, other than the tracked HP. When you have 10 orc fodder fitting in to a 4 square area, it's much simpler to track their HP as a set number of hits (as it can be assumed 1 hit = 1 kill) than it is to calculate stack values and variables.

You haven't played 4e, you haven't read the 4e books, you are shitposting based on information you heard online. Kill yourself.

>>96900003
>Presentation and clarity was by far 4e's greatest strength. If you somehow misread or misunderstood something then you lack basic literacy.
Clarity had shit to do with its presentation problems. Layout and language were a much bigger hurdle. It's why people are okayish with 4e mechanics ported to 5e even though the only difference is a more normal language used to describe abilities instead of half a dozen color coded tags.
>Functionally speaking that is exactly how they work, other than the tracked HP. When you have 10 orc fodder fitting in to a 4 square area, it's much simpler to track their HP as a set number of hits (as it can be assumed 1 hit = 1 kill) than it is to calculate stack values and variables.
As long as you have only characters/NPCs close in level to each other on the field. The moment you need to juggle multiple different power levels on both sides of the conflict shit gets fucked. Yes, you can shake it down to something that works, but its a pain in the ass to do. And in games that don't concentrate solely on dungeon crawling that happens regularly.

>>96899977
>>96899964
Why not at least use a damage threshold mechanic like 5e uses for ships then?

>>96900106
>As long as you have only characters/NPCs close in level to each other on the field. The moment you need to juggle multiple different power levels on both sides of the conflict shit gets fucked. Yes, you can shake it down to something that works, but its a pain in the ass to do. And in games that don't concentrate solely on dungeon crawling that happens regularly.

Heaven and Hell for anyone who isn't leveled up. Maybe some characters with healing powers can bring back an under-leveled ally or keep them from dying, but otherwise, that neatly demonstrates how Bilbo got clocked early and easily and had to be told how most of the Battle of Five Armies ended up after he regained consciousness.

>>96899834
The game world is built around the PCs and every encounter is a set piece designed to provide an appropriate challenge to the party. The Rohan army would not be modeled at all and just be background NPCs for the purposes of the game, until the battle is over and they're involved in some social challenge.
>>96899977
>An enemy that is a boss to a level 1 party, would be an elite to a level 5 party, which would be a standard rank and file enemy to a level 10 party, and effortless cannon fodder to a level 15 party.
But they would still level up their attack bonuses, saves and damage to be an appropriate challenge. And in exchange forget some of the abilities they had at lower levels because fuck you we're not tracking these for a dozen minions.

>>96898268
sorry your game sucks faggot

One thing that always puzzled me about 4th: Why were some powers expressed as "ranged 5" and others as "one target in burst 5 centered on self" or something like that? (I played 4e once and haven't looked inside the books for years.)

>>96901708
Ranged attacks trigger attacks of opportunity. Close bursts don't. So a Cleric using Healing Word as a close burst 5, 1 target won't get punched in the face if they are in melee with someone.

>>96885732 (OP)
>>96885753
4e was fine for what it was(super simple dungeon combat simulator)
It lacked a lot of customization options was fairly unbalanced and slow and tossed any idea of non-combat rules out the window though.

People who talk about 4e should be legally required to post proof that they have read the books and played at least one campaign (min. 5 sessions) before posting.
The vast majority of """discussion""" about 4e comes from people that can't even answer the most basic questions about how the game works.

>>96902003
There is more customization for characters through themes, backgrounds, etc. than 5e in officially printed material compared to 5e.
4e has more non-combat rules support than 5e does

>>96902028
But le meme about superheroes and caster weak.

>>96902357
This. There were like 30 races to play, something like 20 classes, each class having several subclass choices, hundreds of Paragon Paths, dozens of epic destinies, a few hundred backgrounds, a good number of themes, and THOUSANDS of feats (not counting all of the powers, magic items, and more).

>>96902357
>>96902415
Accidentally entered my post before finishing.
There were also powers keyed to skills, races, feats, deities and more. You had rituals as well. Finally there were whole ass sections of the books dedicated to roleplay insights and how-to's

>>96902028
Not being able to hook up enough players to begin with is a game design skill issue

>>96885732 (OP)
Cantrips should not be infinite at-will, as it does not make narrative sense in the context of the universe. It is a concept thought of by ADHD mongoloids and soulless corporate automatons.

>>96902003
4e fills the same role as heroquest, but heroquest has a gargoyle and the barbarian and a dwarf, while 4e has no miniatures.

>>96902415
>>96902431
>>96902357
once you get into the trillions of character options that 5e / 4e has for character creation it stops mattering which has 'more'

>>96902740
>the trillions of character options that 4e has
All those "options" just to make the same fucking characters that all operate in the same fucking way, with no regard for verisimilitude. Abject fucking garbage and not an actual TTRPG.

>>96902740
>It lacked a lot of customization options
>trillions of character options that 5e / 4e

So which is it? Its lacking or has trillions?

>>96889892
>(except instead of a cleanly formatted encounter power that you can use 3 times before a short rest they have to write long paragraphs conveying the same information)
I will repeat it as long as it takes people to realize the truth.

The real reason 4E got shitcanned is because of this. Just this. 3E only explained mechanics at length, in confusing language, in different phrasing every time the same mechanic came up, and the pages were printed as if you were reading an arcane magic tome. All 4E really did different was make sure all rules are keyworded so they are explained THE SAME WAY EVERY TIME and in a way that is understandable and consistently applied. Then ditch the arcane tome printing on the pages for something clean and unobtrusive.

That is why people rebelled. In seeing how DnD's rules actually read, people freaked out. Also people who were honestly tricked by 3E in to doing something more complex than was actually happening. I'm also very sure people didn't realize they were probably playing 3E wrong for years cause they thought similar mechanics were entirely different ones.

>>96886263
I can't help feel there is some better way to design a class other than

>Most OP mother fucker that exists and can kill with a wrist flick
>Or
>Most useless wanker who may as well have taken crossbow feats instead

As it's only two ways of being played.

>>96902723
Going to be brutally honest with people.

Full casters either need to have free cantrips or be viable in melee or some third mysterious thing. In any case, their spell slots need to be gutted. Hard. Putting all design in to vancian casting is NEVER going to work. It's always going to cause the problem it does. Vancian casting needs to be a very minor part of how a character works for it to not force the entire game to revolve around it. I know vanican casting is cool conceptually. It feels cool. What it does to game design and player mentality is horrendous. It can't be the dominant feature in anything. This long path to hell started when wizards got changed to working that way.

The kind of goal we want here is one combat per session and finishing one 'adventure' per session. Characters don't need more than they need to finish that, and anyone with less can be buffed. Doesn't matter how we reach the goal so long as we reach it. The system cannot be designed with combat madness in mind. That's part of what's killing things too. If your DM can't think of anything to do other than 5 combats a session, they need to stop DMing. One combat should be enough to make feel people in danger. Since the cleric doesn't need 20 spells they can all spontaneously convert to heals either. Injuries can be healed, but everyone being injured that session should be a problem. Find some other gimmick, bro.

Forcing things to work will never work. It needs to change. It all has to go. The system is rotten to it's core trying to chase an ideal that'll never function.

>>96902814
4e's math also just worked unlike every other edition, which exposed tons of shitty dms who were used to just handwaving everything.

It was ok, had some great times in it, but I don't miss it at all.

>>96903406
I still remember entire threads on /tg/ being mad realizing everything is just die + attribute mod. As if they just realized what playing D20 meant.

>>96902814
With you on that 100%. Moreover, 3e with its faux leather covers and parchment pages had a look. 4e changed that look.
That's why bitches cry every couple of years with Windows, too. There are literally useful programs from 3.1 inside Win8 (at least). It can't be *that* different...

>>96885732 (OP)
>>96885732 (OP)
D&D5E 2024 SO GODDAMNED SHIT AND GAY, THERE ARE LITERAL REVISIONISTS LIKING 4E AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHVHAHAHAHAHAHAHV

>>96897950
NTA, but I would agree with
>4e was a solid, well designed answer to the myriad of issues that plagued 3.x
Regale us with
>the many complaints put against it were just as valid against 3.x as against 4e
what are the issues that are in both editions?
Bonus round: Did 5e address any of these at all?

>>96899964
That's swarms. Have you tried playing DnD?

>>96900106
>It's why people are okayish with 4e mechanics ported to 5e even though the only difference is a more normal language used to describe abilities instead of half a dozen color coded tags.
Which is retarded. I don't want to read "You can use this feature once and regain its use after a short or long rest." a gazillion times when "encounter power" means exactly the same.
Also there were three colors for your powers and maybe one color for magic times if you put them on cards. The words directly inside also said what the color meant. It's just objectively good to have something like this.

>>96902814
No, 4e got shitcanned because Mearls got in and started internally poisoning it with Essentials.

>>96902003
>It lacked a lot of customization options
Wrong. It had so much people paid monthly subs for a database.

>was fairly unbalanced
Wrong. It was so balanced retards like you cry "all classes are the same" to this day.

>tossed any idea of non-combat rules out the window
Wrong. All characters have skills, PHB1 lists rituals, PHB2 has skill powers, DMG1 has skill challenges.

Anyone Want 6 physical books and a DM Screen for Fourth?

; )

>>96903663
I mean there is that, but people were already shitting all over it day one on /tg/ too. I remember the threads vividly, and people were pissed the rules were clear and that the book wasn't designed like their precious ancient tome. Also a lot of people that complained the rules are too simplified in ways that.. reveal they didn't get how 3E worked at all. Which is super funny.

Set up for failure from the start. Worse, 5E is just 4E but worse. It has a lot of the same systems done the same way. Just without the keyword system making things easy to cross reference. I find if a thing isn't explained in exactly the same words every time, people often think it's a different thing happening.

>>96903686
5e is 3e by way of 4e but worse

>>96903686
5e returned classes and alignment system of 3, which alone is big selling point. If pathfinder in 3e will remove shitty 2e feat based archetype system, I'll start playing it again.
Also, it allowed you to solve everything with magic again, removing any real need for rogue and half of other utility feats and potions if you had single wizard, just like back in the 3e.
Returned good and lawful good monsters, so GM would feel good about putting them into adventure, because god forbid neutral dragon helping the party instead.

>>96903713
The alignment system is pure brainrot in the first place. Also, 4E had classes so I'm not sure what you mean, exactly. 5E is closer to 4E with built in paths rather than tons of unrelated prestige classes that exist that you have to do extra stuff to qualify for.

>>96903799
Insofar that the same group of people wrote both books, sure? 5e reminds me of a modern 2e with kits being their subclasses

>>96903840
It is just the correct way to design, though. As novel as having 1000 unofficial prestige classes that are all pure garbage with random features that don't help you do things was, a purpose made alternative is better. People romanticize 3E a bit much on a lot of points.

That said, I think people should get more used to the fact the thing they are doing should just be reflavored instead. Cause there's only so many variations of
>XdY+Z
You can squeeze out. Oh but this time we added
>Move them once space!
How daring and brave. Heroic, even.

Trying to make a variance of everything to cover every specific flavor just makes a lukewarm soup of a system. Where you can't just do a specific thing if you haven't had it specifically accounted for. And it's really just same thing as some other thing mechanically anyway. All you really need to know is your damage, your range, your defense, and if your attack has some secondary effect.

But people tend to get pissed off when you peel back the layers of greasy nonsense descriptions of everything and show what it's actually doing.

>>96890757
Fighters aren't raping reality to fight.

>>96885825
Shit I added Martial AoEs in the form of a mechanic called Strikes to my revised/overhauled 5e/2024 martials (barb/Fighter/Paladin, Monk/Ranger/Rogue get maneuvers, fighter gets both ofc) which are just slightly tweaked 4e AoE powers like Whirlwind and whatnot or otherwise based on them. They were a good thing to let martials keep up with casters at later levels, because on paper martials do more damage in practice one AoE is all it takes for a caster to eclipse them.

>>96901765
That's...interesting but wouldn't it be easier and clearer to just say "This does not provoke attacks of opportunity"?

>>96904060
No.

4E used keywords as a system for a reason. The mechanic gets explained to you then quoted the same way every time so you know exactly what it does and when. No misunderstandings, and it's impossible for the writer to forget to mention a specific semantic that may not be obvious to end users. As much as people wailed and screamed about keywords at release, it did make the rules coherent and easy to read.

Once you know what a close burst is, you know what all close burst attacks do. And it doesn't need to be explained to you in the text block of every single close burst in the game. Again. At the risk of one having that left out by mistake. Then everyone asks
>Well.. all the other ones work that way.. this should too?
>Maybe they had a reason.. it's OP?
When, no, it's supposed to be the same.

It's just better.

>>96903200
>The kind of goal we want here is one combat per session and finishing one 'adventure' per session.
Holy fuck that sounds unbearably miserable. I'm not fighting the same cunt for eight fucking hours.

>>96904078
Are you being real? You're joking, right? That's what you got out of the post?

>>96903580
Is this an ironic shitpost?

>>96904060
The keyword 'Close' on any ability or attack means it does not provoke when used.
>>96904126
People are dumb, bro.

>>96890769
Yeah man. It's this new thing called making a joke.

>>96904126
retard.

>>96902366
Those are correct, yeah.

>>96902723
It makes just as much sense as any other way of imagining magic.

>>96903200
You could just actually balance magic so that the game doesn't fall apart just because you can cast a spell each round.

>>96903686
Yes, of course. The idea you communicate is determined by the words you use. If you use different words, you communicate different ideas.

>>96903959
Yes, because fighter is the joke class for hazing new players. Do try to keep up, won't you?

>>96904863
No. Why would it be?

I use 4e for my Pokémon Mystery Dungeon game. Pretty good.

>>96885732 (OP)
There was nothing terribad about 4e. It just tried to make d&d into tabletop WoW. And people just played WoW instead.

>>96905587
How is it tabletop WoW? Like actually specifics and not just spouting an 18 year old meme.

Reminder: >>96902028

WoW edition

>>96905684
Post your proof then before you start gatekeep it

>>96885862
We aren't talking about 3.X here.

>>96896032
I'm not an anti-cantrip person, but it isn't "arbitrary," they burnt their spell slots by their own volition.

>>96905655
It isn't, people just meme it over and over, and it is as dumb as the first time it was uttered.

>>96906996
There’s nothing worse than when told by the devs that they were heavily inspired by wow that 4e players still deny the similarities

>>96906671
Games don't have to have spell slots. We can, in fact, design games well, instead of poorly. I know you're aware of this. Stop pretending to be stupid.

>>96907325
There is nothing wrong with spell slots. Your personal beef with them isn't a reflection of anything but your own personal problems.

>>96905655
>18 year old meme
I played on launch day. Before anyone could tell me it was like vidya I had figured that out for myself so for me it wasn't a meme.

>>96906996
>It isn't
It is.

>people just meme it over and over
People just meme it. Great take.
Some of those people "memeing" it are, like you know, the people who actually fucking designed the game.

Andy Collins, 2010
>Interviewer: It seems like a lot of the design decisions in 4th ... seem more similar to World of Warcraft or similar computer games. Was that a very purposeful, strategic choice because of, as you said, people coming in with certain assumptions from entertainment they’ve already consumed?
>
>Andy Collins: Some of it was that and some of it was simply a measure of – as professional game designers, we look at all games for lessons. Certainly, the lessons we learn from online games are going to be the most obvious ones because they have a lot of people familiar with the sources

Rob Heinsoo, 2024
>Interviewer: to what extent [were you] trying to deal with World of Warcraft ... how much were you on the team thinking about 'yeah, we need to win people over from video games'
>
>Rob Heinsoo: I think we were told that what we should do, what we needed to do, would need to feel familiar to people who were playing digital games.

While he wasn't there at the very beginning
Mike Mearles, 2012, backs up Heinsoo's statement
>As far as I know, 4th edition was the first set of rules to look to videogames for inspiration. I wasn’t involved in the initial design meetings for the game, but I believe that MMOs played a role in how the game was shaped. I think there was a feeling that D&D needed to move into the MMO space as quickly as possible and that creating a set of MMO-conversion friendly rules would help hasten that.

>but Mearles wasn't there at the time
>and he ruined it
Whatever. He agrees with Heinsoo and he knows more about what went on at WOTC than you do.

>>96909253
And what exactly makes it like WoW? Some quotes being wishywashy of "Yeah the higher ups said WoW and we learned some lessons from it" isn't explaining how it's like WoW at all.

>>96909253
>As far as I know, 4th edition was the first set of rules to look to videogames for inspiration.
No that's 3E. Looked at Fallout and Everquest.

>>96909452
Then that turned in to 3.5 based video game. Which are all hyper garbage. Which then created the one combat adventure day cause that's the only way you can design the system in video game form. Which is probably a lot of people's first exposure to DnD.

>>96909452
It also had a set of Diablo and WoW supplements for it too.

>>96909321
First, you need to understand that when people say it's like wow that's a metonym meaning "it's like a vidya rpg". Wow is just one example of a vidya rpg, though the biggest and best known at the time 4e was released.

Second, I'm not your web valet. My goal was to show that the 4e designers themselves said it was like vidya contradicting the anon, maybe even you, who was implying that claims of similarities were invalid. The similarities are there regardless of the designers being aware of them. That the designers say this was a deliberate goal on their part just amplifies the anon's wrongness. If you want particular details of similarities that players have found over the years do a websearch.

Dismissing those quotes as wishy washy is disingenuous when only one of them mentions being told what to do, and the first says "the lessons we learn from online games are going to be the most obvious". You're coming at this in bad faith and you're still asking me to provide sources for you. That's rude. Do it yourself.

>>96909452
>No that's 3E. Looked at Fallout and Everquest.
Interesting. I very briefly played Everquest, well after it's original release, never played a single Fallout game so I can't comment on that, but I don't see 3e being similar to Everquest, certainly not as obvious as the relationship between 4e, wow and diablo.

>>96909669
You said in >>96909253 that you played the game and decided for yourself that it felt like a video game. What exactly felt like a video game?

>>96885732 (OP)
4e was the best edition of dnd simply because it was not dnd

>>96909253
>Mearles, 2012, backs up Heinsoo's statement
That just makes me assume it isn't true.

>>96905655
>4e is almost 20 years old already
Fucking hell

>>96909669
So it wasn't similar at all, got it.

>>96908385
Yes there is.

>>96912871
>um the devs were inspired by the largest mmo at the time but that had no impact on 4es design at all because I’ve never played games at all

>>96909669
>The similarities are there regardless of the designers being aware of them
then name them

>>96911693
Yes, a commentary on 4e by Mr. "You can't shout arms back on!"

You can't Cure Light Wounds them back on either but that never mattered to that ass in the first place or the people who listen to him.

>>96912945
>Cooldown and recharge mechanics never existed until WoW.
I get what you're trying to say, but you're not saying it correctly.

>retards still can't actually cite any rules or features that are similar to MMOs
*taps sign* >>96902028

>>96913597
>someone spoon feed me an ancient argument please, I can’t use google

>>96913699
You don't have an argument. You are just an asshurt faggot still mad that people like a game you don't so you constantly come to these threads to talk shit.

>>96913204
>Opinions by Mike Mearls
The fucker who created Essentials and killed 4E? That's who we are basing opinions on? The fact that 4E was outselling Pathfinder till Essentials came out with him heading it? That fucking Mike Mearls?

>>96913507
It's not so much about cooldown mechanics as it is about homogenizing all the actions and then putting a lot of emphasis on raid like dungeon/encounter design. Ideal 4e session, that most of the game and devs themselves encouraged was a bunch of encounters designed in such a way that they stay on the border between something that needs a daily if you fuck up and doesn't if you do everything right, leading to a boss/mini boss encounter. With player main concern being able to save the dailies for the boss.

It actually worked pretty good for that purpose after they did a pass on monster math.

>>96913824
Technically Essentials also outsold Pathfinder. The only time Pathfinder exceeded 4e in sales was when 4e was out into "no more development" mode as they shifted to "Next"

>>96911871
The Wizards Presents Races and Classes book that came out a few months before 4e proper and introduced a lot of the new stuff to the edition came out December 2007. So the first buyable 4e material will be old enough to post here in less than a month. We have until June of next year before the core books turn 18. Its fucking brutal getting old.

The two Wizards Presents 4th Edition books are actually really interesting reads. It goes into a lot of detail of why 4th Edition is how it is and the history of the project. Its a shame that they mention their forums A LOT in those books and then in 2014 they purged their forums with almost no back up so you can't even double check what is being mentioned.

>>96914767
>With player main concern being able to save the dailies for the boss.
The most efficient way to play 4e is and has always been for 1 party member to expend a daily per encounter.

>>96913204
I genuinely don't know why WotC kept Mearls around for so long. He openly talked shit about 4e right before he was made lead designer at the tail end of PHB3 and then he torpedoed the game because he hated it and somehow the suits were like "Hmm yeah this guy lost us money and ruined a project due to his feelings. Let's let him stay the lead for another edition".

He was always just a dogshit game designer. His solo Dragon articles are all a mess and during mid 5e he did livestreams where he'd discuss the game and make subclasses with chat and he couldn't even get his own rules right and his subclasses were overly wordy to accomplish nothing. I wish 5etools had kept some of that stuff up. His 5e Warlord as a Fighter sub was hilariously terrible, as was his first try at Soulknife.

>>96907066
>"""""this movie was inspired by real events"""""
D&D also claims being inspired by Tolkien yet their elves aren't soulless angels, orks aren't elves corrupted by Satan and the whole fucking theme of "wanting power is bad" is turned on its head with PCs committing war crimes on the daily just for some XP or a magic item.

>>96885732 (OP)
>>96885753
The narrow pathing of
Combat -> Loot -> narrative progression with X amount of party wide skill checks -> Combat -> Repeat
Being the only real pathing to play just does not appeal to the Simulationists in the community regardless of how balanced and well crafterd said combat is.

>>96914767
Whenever the rules (or devs or whatever) talk about encounters they implicitly mean combat or non-combat encounters. Skill challenges explicitly state to give out as many XP as a combat encounter of the appropriate level.
I never played WoW so I must have missed all the trap disarming, negotiating and whatnot sequences in the WoW dungeons I guess...

>>96919418
>narrative progression with X amount of party wide skill checks
Okay... That's a very broad definition. What do (you) regularly do in D&D that's NOT covered by that?

>>96919433
Individual interactions determined by in universe physics wherein the the actual flavor descriptions of how things work decide, instead of keywords.
Alongside a greater acceptance of players going things on their own.
Something like the AD&D Druid succession battle or most Domain management outside of the macro style play doesn't gell with the core gameplay loop very well.

>>96919452
*going and doing things

>>96916413
Yeah but you don't know how many encounters you're going to be having in a day. And if you're going nova once per, those enclunters will be over with quickly, which means the DM has time to spring more on you.

>>96919361
Being inspired by something doesn't mean you have to understand or follow it. Take Charles Manson being inspired by the Beatles, or just about any religious extremist.

>>96919452
>>96919456
No edition of D&D operates on physics or even consistent internal rules. The rest of what you posted is covered by a player driven narrative with skill checks or abilities, which 4e does. It just doesn't mystify it to the player/dm

>>96903686
It's been my experience that almost nobody actually knows how to play dungeons & dragons. They just sit around the table and vibe because they lack the 4th grade reading and mathematical skills to decipher it. 4e made it so simple to understand that if you didn't understand it, it was obvious you didn't understand it. You couldn't hide it with vibes

>>96914767
Anon, daily, at will, and encounter abilities existed in 3.5 too. They just weren't named that. Further proof people were boogeymaned out of liking 4E cause it put in to plain words how the system always worked.

>>96920306
I wonder if this is why I would get fits about character viability in 3.5 while everyone else gave me false comforts. Then what I said would happen happens when it comes to actually play. I'm not great at math, but I do understand it. You really can't just make any garbage choice you want and it's fine. People who don't understand math think it's fine. Then don't ask questions when we're all incompetent as shit.

4E was like a gift from God in that regard. Suddenly a lot of options, and most of them didn't exist to troll the player on purpose. You could build more or less build on a theme and be assured your character isn't a lead weight even if they aren't optimal. A thing I wonder if people never appreciated it. Since, yeah, they never understood the math in the first place.

>>96920349
There is a reason that character optimization guides were so desperately needed. The average player really doesn't have the chops to understand even things as obvious as a feat that gives you a reroll once per day during the summer solstice not being remotely on the same level as power attack. It's 100% about it reading cool as fuck

>>96920410
3.5 was basically a shit test of both reading comprehension and math comprehension. You need at least a vague model in your brain for a lot of stuff, and Ye Old Power Attack really is often the better choice. I've fought DMs tooth and nail on how getting an extra damage source for a dex build wouldn't hurt literally anything because of how much better strength builds are to no avail too.
>NO YOU'RE FINE IT'S FINE YOU DON'T NEED MORE

I mean to be fair, Gary Gygax was infamous for never using the rules. He rolled then lied about some result he thought was fun and interesting. Which is apparently how most people play too. Fuck me.

>>96920485
The vibes are also why people are defensive about it. You're just trying to make the game more clean and functional, but to them, you're basically saying their calvinball is a stupid wrong game. 4e's marketing campaign of specifically targeting known gripes and problems backfired because people grew attached to their own ways of ignoring or painting over the issues. You *really* think there were enough gnome players to be upset they weren't in phb1?

>>96920789
>Started my nerd life as a freeform RPer
>Scene slowly becomes just ERP
>Go to tabletop games
>The only advantage this even has is that rules keep people from being dumb and autistic about who wins and loses
>Turns out it was just freeform RP all along
>And they're all totally fucking in DMs anyway

I'm mad.

>>96920789
Man, I wonder if this also explains why no one gives a shit about fixing 5e either. The devs have to know no one actually uses the rules. It's all vibe and pretending to roll?

>>96909253
lmao shut up FAGGOT

>>96909669
you are my web valet and you'll whatever the fuck I tell you.

>>96912945
gonna cry and shit yourself? lol

>>96919418
Yes, simulationism is not a legitimate method of having fun. We know.

>>96919452
>I want the game to suck

>>96920983
There are games that are different, but specifically D&D really suffers from this. 4e fans are probably the only subset that don't.
>>96920992
100%. Listen to any interview on the development. It was all about not calling attention to the guts of the game and all about adding back in those layers of evocative language and abilities that clearly need a referee to get the "feel" back. Even Mearls admits that 5e doesn't work nearly as well as 4e, and it's not good for "exploring the dungeon and fighting the monsters" and so on, but it's supposed to catch the people who couldn't vibe with clearly defined abilities or remember the action system. And it totally did.

>>96919474
You do know. The DM will present exactly enough encounters to just barely challenge you, because rolling new characters is fucking dreadful and no one wants to sit there and not play the game instead of playing the game, DM included.

>>96920349
Yeah and that's gay as fuck. The whole point of RPGs is to secretly make a busted character to humiliate the other players, steamroll every encounter, and shit all over the game. Only jews and women enjoy fun.

>>96920324
Really this has always been what it is.
4th edition showed you how the machine worked, and people got really mad about seeing how the machine worked.

>>96915291
>in 2014 they purged their forums
One of the things that piss me off. I thought I had saved some random d20 threads, but can't find them, there was some crazy far out content there. Walmart d20 legit looked fun.

>>96921105
Also explains why arguing about it never goes anywhere.

>>96921166
I'm fine with how the machine worked because if we didn't want outside arbitration, we could just freeform RP with no problems instead. I've bought some books simply for the setting and lore, you know? Not like Hunter: The Reckoning was ever a playable system in the first place. I even knew a playtester that admitted they knew it never worked.

Pretending to use a system while not using it is just a bad compromise of both freeform and tabletop RPing.

>>96919361
Uh, at some points Gygax went out of his way to say it wasn't (most likely to avoid lawsuits), they even had to change ents and hobbits' names.
Also it's no secret Tolkien wasn't the only inspiration. The elves might as well have been a mix with the fae from Three Hearts And Three Lions, and probably some other books from Appendix N I haven't read at all.

>>96885732 (OP)
Didn't PF1e do that first?
And wasn't that more or less an extension of the idea of Reserve Feats from 3.5e?

>>96921166
If your machine is a thing of banality and souless number crunching without its cover then its best to keep the cover on.
If anything this discussion has show me that 4e players are the kind of spiritually dull STEMlords which while are important for the continuation of civilization should never be allowed to run it.

>>96921485
games aren't for you, storyshitting theaternigger.

>>96921440
PF1 didn't do anything first. It came out like 8 months after 4e and well over a year after they first showed off 4e's at-will spells.

The 3e Warlock's Eldritch Blast was more the inspiration. They realized that limiting those otherwise worthless d4 or d6 0th level spells was silly. It also explains why Warlock got promoted to a first book class.

>>96921485
I really only hear this stuff from D&Dfags, to be honest. Most games are perfectly fine with showing you their guts and most players are perfectly fine seeing it. Only in D&D does this somehow ruin the fun, but again: vibes

>>96921559
And yet as stated up thread Gygax was closer to us than you.
A detailed set of rules was made in the first place to enforce IP copyright and sell books, not for any love of the game.
And sorry I burst your bubble by telling you that the technocratic future your ideals represent leads to a dull lifeless world, STEM is the role of Tools and Advisors, not leaders.

>>96921617
This.

I'm convinced now too. This behavior doesn't exist in any other system, and this is why it's impossible to convince DND players to try a system that actually enables what they want to do better and in a more fun manner. They don't WANT rules. They want the vanity of adhering to a ruleset without actually doing so. Only DnD offers the sheer amount of purposeful obfuscation and kludge to maintain the fakery.

>>96921630
Did you just.. admit you want to whoremonger your way to the top through fakery and vanity instead of living an honest life?

>>96921485
If understanding how the rules of a game works makes you have a meltdown where your immersion is irreparably damaged, that's a personal problem.

>>96920214
My point exactly. The devs being "inspired by" WoW doesn't make 4e "WoW - The board game". Which is what >>96907066 argues.

>>96921678
I want to live in a world of color and creativity but acknowledge the need for data brained individuals to keep things running.
They can also partake in the joy if they they wish and are able, but again STEMlords should never be in charge, if so they become the cultural equivalent of a grey goo incident.

>>96919452
>Individual interactions determined by in universe physics
Ew. Sounds like simulationism.

>Alongside a greater acceptance of players going things on their own.
Our rogue never had problems scouting ahead while our cleric (and later artificer) did their healing checks. The existence of skill challenges does not preclude characters from acting on their own.

>Something like the AD&D Druid succession battle or most Domain management outside of the macro style play doesn't gell with the core gameplay loop very well.
I'll give you that one. It's been years since I hunted down the Dragon/Dungeon PDFs. I don't recall domain rules.

>>96921126
This. If you don't play to win D&D what's the point? You might be a maladjusted loser IRL but at least at the table you can be a somewhat valued member of a group.

>>96921741
No, I think you are trying to dress up your desire to whoremonger your way up the ladder on the backs of people who believe in honesty and playing by the rules.

>>96921793
When did I ever say I wanted up the ladder?
Your the one that made the assumption that a world of creativity and beauty can only exit for those at the top.

>>96921811
Somewhere in here >>96921630 except you didn't so much say it as scream it very loudly and assume no one would hear it.

>>96921327
Read the reply chain. D&D is inspired by a lot of stuff. LotR among them. Does this mean
A) D&D elves are carbon copies of Tolkien elves or
B) are D&D elves similar to (but legally distinct from) Tolkien elves?
Does inspiration always mean A)? Or is generally understood to mean B)?

>>96921485
Just Put My Fries in the Bag Bro

>>96921839
I never said I was going to be a leader I just want to work a day job and run D&D games.

>>96921630
lol mad

>>96921811
It's what you actually believe.

>>96885732 (OP)
The more I play 5e the better 4e and 3e look in comparison.

PF2E is smoother than any of them, for better and worse.

>>96923908
I don't remember having much luck with navigating through the rules of PF2e. Were the books a mess to read through, or am I perhaps remembering something else and associating it with PF2e somehow?

>>96923940
They are just okay. Remaster allowed to unlock such magnificent skills as parsing their fucking text and actually using boxed text.

>>96923960
So the original print was a mess then. Guess I'll see if I can't find the remastered stuff at some point. Though at this point my tables probably moved on to greener pastures.

>>96923996
There is a source floating around. I've made the switch few years ago and while I do run other editions of DnD-alikes and few other games, pf2e has become my go to heroic fantasy, combat heavy game.

just mentally adjust this to 'magic-users can stab with a dagger EVERY turn!' and oh look, it's Dungeons & Dragons.

>>96885732 (OP)
4e is very retro now but it did invent modern RPGs in a box. With very little software support since DDI plug was pulled and very stale meta, I wouldn't play it

>>96903959
Throwing a firebolt isn't raping reality.

>>96903102
>As it's only two ways of being played.
No such thing in an rpg. There are countless ways to play any class despite necessary limitations.

>>96919059
>I genuinely don't know why WotC kept Mearls around for so long. He openly talked shit about 4e right before he was made lead designer at the tail end of PHB3 and then he torpedoed the game because he hated it and somehow the suits were like "Hmm yeah this guy lost us money and ruined a project due to his feelings. Let's let him stay the lead for another edition".

He was much better at brown nosing to and playing politics with the Hasbro executives than the previous D&D team leaders. This led to him being put in charge when 4e failed to meet the expectations to board set for them.

>>96885732 (OP)
Upsides of 4th:
>good visuals, actual color art. much easier on the eyes than previous editions
>options for martials and casters
>much simpler system for making characters and actually playing
>good starting point, had mainstream appeal

Downsides:
>the powers and feats are all just warcraft buttons, and you have the option of, and get, too damn many to keep track of.
>they're pretty similar mechanically and didn't have a great amount of narrative behind them
>grid pretty and minis much required limiting what a GM could make
>smooths out the clunky things, then clunks up the smooth things.

i think 5e is a better system overall, though it breaks a few things this one fixed, but this one was a good intro for me. I play neither now and tend to enjoy other more indie games.

>>96926376
The majority of feats don't have any sort of active ability to use, most powers actually have pretty different effects (keywords are important), it used the same mapping system as 3rd edition so I don't know what you mean there, and I have no idea what you mean by the fourth part

wow edition

>>96926900
I wish it was WoW D&D, but that's a third edition source book.

nope it's wow

Obligatory reminder that 4th edition had an entire series of "Unearthed Arcana" articles that were all about presenting optional rules for the game, including henchmen, hirelings, strongholds, "0-level" starter PCs who were less powerful than PHB 1st level ones, non-treasure rewards, ways to end a fight that WEREN'T just "kill all the enemies", long-lasting injuries, and sailing ships.

https://1d6chan.miraheze.org/wiki/Unearthed_Arcana#4e_UA_Articles

Seriously, you can create doorways through time and your own personal floating island stronghold, and that's not "non-combat magic"?

>>96927062
I played in a level 0 game that had us graduating to proper adventurers, albeit in semi-custom classes.

I wound up with the most basic, a spear-based strike that borrowed mostly from the rogue with some controller elements because part of what I did was forced movement.

>>96926376
Now stop looking at it like a player, and go GM-side
>building encounters exactly as hard as you want them to be is EASY
>skill challenge rules that really only work in combat
>BUT you'll use those skill challenges in all other editions too once you see how well they work
>balance between players was easy to figure out and rebalance as and if needed, and often the most broken things were the interactions between players, that was actually pretty fun
and most importantly
>the BEST D&D comic ever to be made. Dwarven work.
5e is pretty good too, it has some very good simplifying mechanics, but the crs aren't as streamlined as in 4e, and right now there are no real indications on the balance of encounters and short rests per day, which is pretty damn essential, and the caster-martial divide is just too big, also martials, and the game overall, have lost too many fun options, the leader-buffer-supporter archetype is a pale shadow of what it used to be.

>>96927116
Been a while since I've thought about Fell's Five.

>>96926924
Several 3e source books actually

>>96927129
Only flaw is that it made Fell a fighter instead of a warlord

>>96927116
>>96927129
Man the Fell's Five comics were great. A pity the run wasn't longer. My local Library has a collection/trade paperback of the comics.

>>96927917
Agreed. The narrative mae him a Warlord in role.

>>96903684
Depends on the cost.

>>96926376
Systems provide rules. Human imagination provides narrative.

>>96926376
>good visuals, actual color art. much easier on the eyes than previous editions
Now you're just straight up lyin'

>>96927116
>>96927129
>the BEST D&D comic ever to be made. Dwarven work.
Always with the "dwarven handiwork" thing, huh
But for once, we all agree

>>96927062
Its a shame that the compendiums rarely include a lot of the UA stuff. You have to have a list of all the Dragon issues and their contents and then also all those pdfs to find something like 80% of the content.

Its really nice that the compendiums exist but realistically 4e still needs a collection of dozens and dozens of pdfs to browse through. There are almost 70 just Dragon magazines for 4th Edition. Luckily The Eye has essentially everything ever printed for easy access because fuck giving WotC money for old pdfs and all of Dragon is on the Wayback Machine.

wow edition

>>96926900
>>96926976
>>96933257
...But enough about 3rd edition.

lol dumb gay 4rry

>>96926376
>the powers and feats are all just warcraft buttons, and you have the option of, and get, too damn many to keep track of.

How are they any more "warcraft buttons" than spells are in any other edition. And similarly a 4e character at max level has like 18 powers not counting magic items, a max level full caster in any other edition has way more than 18 both spells known and spell slots. Even a 1st level 4e character is simpler than a caster in other editions. A 4e 1st level character has 2 at wills, 1 encounter, 1 daily and 1 racial power. So 5 powers in total. A say 1st level 5e wizard has 3 known cantrips, 6 known spells (though can only prepare 4 and cast 2) as well as anything their race gives them. So at least 9 but realistically 10 things to keep track of.

>>96930606
Hell, I made an article index of 4e's entire run of Dragon and Dungeon articles, just because there was no 4e equivalent to the Dragondex, which does all of the

>>96937083
...And this is why you double-check before hitting post. That was supposed to say that Dragondex did index all the articles from every single print issue of Dragon ever written, but they closed up shop forever when Dragon and Dungeon went digital and became netzines made by WotC.

>>96936336
4rry

>>96903423
Ah, the days of
>This game is dumb, everything you do is just damage, effect, or damage and effect
as if that didn't describe literally everything you could do it previous editions.

>>96938696
Yes, it literally didn't. Retarded 4rry lol

>>96938696
But it doesn't hide that inside 3 paragraphs of fluff and rule text poorly intermingled so the table has to argue how something works. You need that for it to be a real roleplaying experience.

>>96940766
Yes, dumbfuck.

>>96941051
I'm sorry for your crippling autism retard-kun

lol seething

>>96941424
Imagine projecting this much. You come into a thread about something you apparently hate for no real reason and piss and shit yourself and then claim the people who are actually on topic are seething. Its really pathetic. >>96941424

mad :)

This gay baby has been seething nonstop in both 4e threads for almost a full week now, coming back every few hours to pretend he isn't letting the 4e community live rent free in his head.
It's kind of funny to think about - the mere existence of some people that like and want to talk about a game has this manchild so enraged that he HAS to come back constantly to remind everyone.
Makes me feel better about myself, knowing I'm not him.

wow edition :)

>>96942817
Its not just this thread. Its any time 4e gets mentioned. For over a year now. He starts off the same as the beginning, trying to argue with people but when someone who has actually played the game before gives him any pushback it turns to name calling and spamming. I genuinely think he has some sort of alerts so he can make sure to be here to do his usual.

And mark my words when this thread starts autosaging from either a janny being sick of it, it hitting the age limit or it hitting the post limit he'll sit there and wait until its the final thread on the board minutes from archival and he'll post his gay little anti 4e grave dance because he desperately needs the last word. What he needs is a mental hospital.

wow edition :)

>>96885732 (OP)
Wasn't the plan for low level casters to use mundane weapons like crossbows? At low level your lack of proficiency doesn't matter as much and when it starts to do, by that time you have slots to spare.

Admittedly that sounds less pizzazz than getting "crossbow but it's you shoot it out of your fingertips".

Why did I pick "guy who uses magic" if I don't get to use magic?

>>96946989
But genuinely what's the point? How is using a crossbow at low levels any different from shooting a shitty icicle or whatever?

>>96946989
Back in the day it was more sling than crossbow, really, crossbows are more expensive and the rate of fire was kinda shit

>>96942817
It fucking baffles me.

I understand 4e having holdouts. Some people really liked the game. Who genuinely that this was the peak of D&D and everything before and since isn't as good. Hell, I've met someone who's a grown adult who thinks BESM (anime gurps for babies for those unfamiliar) is one of the best RPGs ever made. Every game has its shooters.

But I do not understand the guy who's still fighting an edition war 14 years after the version of D&D he didn't like has left print. I genuinely do not understand having this level of a grudge against a tabletop RPG.

But if I had to make a guess as to why he behaves this way: you're in your late 30s; like 35-38, somewhere about there. You played 3.5 D&D in high school. 4th edition came out when you were in or entering college. This is also around the time your high school gaming group started to fall apart, and those friendships started to deteriorate. And you blame the new version of D&D - if WotC had kept making 3.5, your high school friends would still be running D&D to this day. When in reality, your group was always going to start drifting apart, because it wasn't the version of D&D that caused your group to deteriorate, it was all of your life circumstances changes as you all started going your separate ways.

lol gay 4rries :)
if it doesn't matter to you then stop posting :)

So how does Psionics compare between editions 3 and 4?

>>96885732 (OP)
>OH NO!
>My incredibly powerful character class has a single weakness!
>Woe is me!
>This game is clearly unplayable!
>Why do we even have to roll, I might roll low, and that's just bad game design!

>>96947421
As an old 3.x Psionics player, and a 4e fan since launch, they had the worst conversion possible into the new system. It was the chance to really rethink 4e power structures and actually provide some shakeup to the AEDU system. Instead, you got a meta currency that recharges after each encounter to spend on your at will attack powers to make them stronger, no encounter attack powers, and daily powers same as any other.

That said, while I don't think Monk should have been rolled into their power source, it is easily the best presentation of Monk probably ever. The Full Discipline mechanic is solid gold, and something every interpretation of 'Monk' should take inspiration from going forward.

>>96947610
Originally Monk wasn't going to be Psionic. It was going to be its own Power Source, Ki. It mentions it in PHB 1. But in the first half of 4e, up to and including PHB 3, they really wanted all power sources to have all 4 roles and they couldn't really crunch out Ki classes for the rest of them and apparently didn't really want Soulknife for the Psionic Striker so Monk got rolled into Psionic even though it doesn't really fit.

There are some rumors that Runepriest was originally the Ki Leader but was refluffed and slightly reworked when Ki met the trash can.

>>96947672
Yeah I recall reading that back in the day. I chalk it up to a lack of creativity myself, cause I can think of several concepts to do things with Ki, some of which I've been implementing into my own homebrew heartbreaker.

A bit stupid about Soulknife though, since that's basically what they did with Hexblade in Essentials. Not like Soulknife was the only option they had for Striker either. Though it's absence was definitely palpable for the Power Source as a whole I think.

>>96885732 (OP)
>>96885792
Anons, Unlimited scaling cantrips came from pathfinder.
4e didn't invent SHIT.

>>96947701
Psionics in 4e really most suffer from coming out like 4 months before Essentials started. Sure they got Psionic Power pushed out almost immediately but then they were completely abandoned because they didn't receive even a crumb during Essentials except for like 2 little Dragon Magazine articles. The other PHB 3 classes also have that issue where both Runepriest and Seeker missed their associated Power books and thus were way behind the curve and are some of the weakest classes in the game.

In an alternate world where we never got Essentials we probably could have gotten Soulknife as a new Psionic class since every other Power Source, except Martial. got new classes down the line. I also blame the rushing to get Monk out because of all the whining about it still being missing as part of why Ki never got expanded.

>>96947521
Who are you quoting?

>>96947729
No they didn't. Pathfinder came out well after 4E.

>>96947521
Who are you quoting?

>>96947729
>Anons, Unlimited scaling cantrips came from pathfinder.
>4e didn't invent SHIT.
Hey Anon?
Which came first, June 6th 2008, or August 2009? Think VERY carefully about this one. It'd be really embarrassing if you got this kind of thing wrong.

>>96947672
While we hadn't reached the era of full woke yet, there were also people who were going "I dunno, Ki is kinda yikesy, don't you think?" even at the time.

>>96949590
Pathfinder first, stupid kike

>>96949627
You're dodging the question, Anon.
Which happened first? June 2009, or August 2009?
This isn't a hard question, Anon. Most children could answer it.

>>96949602
I absolutely hate that faggotry. I've seen way too much "Monks are Orientalism and should just be removed". Its retarded. No one every complains about Barbarian being both the wrong word for and a stereotype of Norse Berserkers or how Druids are a huge stretch from the priest class of ancient pagan Britain. I even saw people bitching about 4e's Shaman's naming. White people shit is fine to stereotype and make inaccurate copies of but God forbid you even kind of reference a nonWhite thing ever. No matter how badass you make it,

>>96947672
>There are some rumors that Runepriest was originally the Ki Leader
I have no proof, but it always felt like that was the case to me. I think all of the ki classes would have had some sort of stance gimmick. You've got the runepriest who swaps runes which modifies their powers and the monk who's attacks modify their movement. Samurai for example could have easily had some sort of sheathed/unsheathed gimmick.

>>96949602
Well, on top of that, it was also redundant and the classes people talk about being under it are kind of dumb. Samurai weren't known for being a part of a genre of ki-use, and fit far better as fighters. You need a way better Defender idea for this, and I don't think that you have one.

>>96942817
>the 4e community
Can you really call 1-2 people a community?

>>96950501
Sure you do. Ki is asian is the dumbest thing imaginable and a total cope of those lacking in creativity. Ki represents internal energies. Hell, WotC has a whole subpower system in 3.5 they could have called Ki based with the Incarnum book. A guy who literally pulls armor out of his ass with his mind would be a killer defender for the Power Source.

>>96950512
Hey, the community is much larger than that, there are at least 20 of us!

>>96949602
>>96949658
To be honest ki is kinda retarded

>>96890968
yeah it is

>>96949590
I think what Anon is saying is that 4e At-Will Cantrips are different from 5e Cantrips which behave more like PF's. I'm basing this on the fact Wizard's Cantrips are all non-Damage spells (Mage Hman, Light, Prestidigitation.. etc) thing is, Warlock's lvl1 At-Wills scale up much like 5e Cantrips, albeit at level 21. Same with Sorcs. Other Classes' At-Wills upgrade at 11th and 21st.

>Broke
Cantrips are good because they allow casters to specialize in their spellcasting ability to roll to-hit
>Woke
Cantrips are bad because they reinforce bad habits for caster players, they deal less damage and are more vulnerable attack rolls because they juiced INT instead of putting some points into DEX to plink with a light xbow
>Bespoke
Cantrips are good because they reinforce bad habits for caster players, they deal less damage and are more vulnerable attack rolls because they juiced INT instead of putting some points into DEX to plink with a light xbow

>>96952363
the fuck is a vulnerable attack roll?

>>96952456
probably meant "more vulnerable to attack rolls"

>>96937083
Would be interested in said index.
I toyed with the idea of just collating all Dungeon/Dragon issues into two big PDFs. It wouldn't have been great but at least you could've searched them all at once. But alas I left my group at the time.

>>96950857
Probably should have called it something else, then. And even then, it'd still overlap with Psionic and Martial stuff.

>>96952665
If you actually read a fair amount of Xianxia or Wuxia stuff you'd know that they don't necessarily overlap with Martial or Psionic stuff. In Xanxia media body cultivators are what we would call Martials and soul cultivators are more akin to psionics directly interacting with minds/personalities/souls. Ki/Qi cultivation is about cultivating and using various forms of life energy.

>>96951295
It's not hard to actually find the 4e communities. The only problem is that touhoufag is in all of them

>>96952825
Its really not hard to avoid 1 autist anon. Its not like he doesn't go by the same name everywhere.

>>96889444
it had the exact same skill system the previous editions had. it was no less capable than 3.5

>>96953136
How am I supposed to use rope without a skill for it?

>>96889444
Yes, the game rules define the game. Why are you using a system if you don't want rules?

>>96889444
>If you can't exploit bugs then that means it's literally a videogame
The shit 3egroids will say, man...

>>96954321
retard

>>96952791
Which is just a background to high level stuff in general. It's just like how shugenja doesn't need to be a class, because it is, in general, about empowering yourself and could be in just about any power source.

>>96952362
Except those appeared first in 3.5. The Warlock's Eldritch Blast scaled with level and so did the Reserve Feats kind of. So again Pathfinder didn't invent shit.

>>96885732 (OP)
>ctrl+f wow
>23 results

So... are we going to ignore that 4e rules were inspired by SW SAGA (which itself is taking from 3.5e) and just pretend that Wow invented At Will powers?

A Diablo 2 wizard can cast 4 fireballs a second. Your game sucks dick

>>96947672
>so Monk got rolled into Psionic even though it doesn't really fit.
>>96952791
>In Xanxia media body cultivators are what we would call Martials and soul cultivators are more akin to psionics directly interacting with minds/personalities/souls. Ki/Qi cultivation is about cultivating and using various forms of life energy.
The problem with thinking of Psionics is many only think of it as being telekinesis and related "modern" powers. 4e Psionics is much closer to Xianxia cultivation in how it works. Monks are psionic because they cultivate their "ki" into physical actions, meanwhile an Ardent is focusing his "ki" and disciplined emotions into auras that bolster allies and hinder enemies when they strike. The Batlemind focuses his "ki" to teleport across the battlefield, turn his skin to stone, or move with incredible speed. And the Psion is blasting fire, reshaping terrain, and popping heads.

Ki has always been psionics flavored and psionics have always been ki flavored, if you looked at them through the lens of ancient ideas of how bodies and minds worked. If you ignore the psionic terms modern connotations and try to imagine it through an ancient lens, it looks very much like Ki cultivation.

>>96957651
Psionics has always been as much about the soul as it is the mind.

>>96885819
Correct and OG pilled

>>96956290
The WoW thing was basically all because of Defenders. Shitty DMs (yeah, you're shit) were mad that their enemies got debuffed by defenders and punished if they ignored them, even though that's not at all how MMO aggro works

>>96902003
>It lacked a lot of customization options was fairly unbalanced and slow and tossed any idea of non-combat rules out the window though.so pretty much every thing 3.5 did but because people already had their specific version of 3.5 nailed down they hated it.

>>96885794
> it was objectively shit but theres was so much cool stuff to actually do!!!

>man that movie sucked except for all the cool stuff that happened

>>96958042
Honestly a lot of the retarded 4e complaints seem to come exclusively from shitty DMs upset that the rules just let players do shit instead of having to make like 5 different checks and play mother may I for 10 minutes.

>>96889444
>circumvent rules interactions
why is this seen as some sort of golden by the grognards? whats the point of playing a game with set rules if all you just wanna do it hit the "i win" button when you feel like it

>>96957651
>>96957947

To the point that the Complete Psionics Handbook of 2e actually said in the back, "Want more power examples of psionic powers? Rifle through Asian mysticism sources."

>>96958183
lol i bet you like things that are good, how's that qualityslop taste FAG

>>96947672
>they really wanted all power sources to have all 4 roles

This was a major design mistake in my opinion. They literally locked classes to a power source/role matrix instead of assigning each class a role and using power source to determine the effects of individual powers.

Consider this, if classes hadn't been role locked Fighter could have had primarily Martial Fighter powers, but could have also had the option to take some Arcane Fighter powers for a more Eldritch Knight build. Warlock would have also been better as each pact could have a different power source.

>>96957651
>Ki has always been psionics flavored and psionics have always been ki flavored, if you looked at them through the lens of ancient ideas of how bodies and minds worked. If you ignore the psionic terms modern connotations and try to imagine it through an ancient lens, it looks very much like Ki cultivation.

Fair point. Ki cultivation is more a meta power source that Psionics ends up being a subset of which is why Ki doesn't really fit when you try to shove it into Psionics.

>>96958311
I fucking distinctly remember a guy on release day going on a rant for at least 2 threads about how his "highly trained elites" shouldn't be debuffed by a fighter that isn't a much higher level than them.