Thread 96897393

Still Alive Edition

>>IF YOU ARE ASKING A QUESTION, PLEASE SPECIFY WHICH GAME YOU'RE PLAYING<<

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>>CHECK THE SHARE THREAD FOR MISSING MATERIALS<<

TQ: Have you played as an undead character? What material is missing from undead options?

>>96897393 (OP)
We just need better rules desu. Ghoul/ghost as an archetype kinda sucks.

Anyway, I got a GM question. What do you do with a greedy ass party? My players are constantly trying to nickel and dime, and in general Jew every NPC they see for every quest.

I'm running AV and it's starting to get upsetting how they constantly expect the town to both dick ride them and provide them with a blank check. I've stated repeatedly that the town doesn't have that much money. Should I just call their bluff and bring in a NPC team of adventurers who will undercut them?

>>96898094
>AV
Either increase the loot they get from the dungeon or give discounts from town, but tie it to the party's advancement in the dungeon.
I ran it with BB+TiO+AV Enhanced and introduced an obnoxious NPC that completed anything the party wouldn't do and in general gloated over the party (until they either killed him, sacrificed him to Urevian for passage, or saved him from whatever is fitting in the dungeon).

>>96898094
A "bigger fish in the pond" scenario is good enough in curbtailing some toxic player behavior. Either having a big organization that starts throwing their weight and keeping the peace or going the opposite and saying there's an even greedier party that does the same thing as they do, and they should get the message. The Gauntlight incident and the other troubles in Otari should be enough to attract other people than the party.

>>96898352
>>96898255
I might have to introduce a party of Sarenrae aligned crusaders who will offer to complete the gauntlight for effectively free

>>96898472
You don't really need people that would want to complete the adventure themselves, even if they really can't do it. It would be showing your hand a little too much and this sounds like a party that would go "well why am I even here?" It should be extra protection for the town that only kinda-sorta-wink-wink protection from the adventures at the most.

>>96898094
"If the town had any money, they'd hire an adventuring company out of Absalom. Now go into the fucking dungeon."

>>96898094
have some wandering cleric or paladin of abadar come and scold/threaten them over their greedy bullshit. say they'll stay in town a while to make sure their nonsense stops

Has anyone played any campaigns that use the Fire As She Bears material? I'm looking at running a high-seas campaign and I'm wondering how well this stuff actually works in practice.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/113418/razor-coast-fire-as-she-bears-pf

One of my players wants to make alchemical "afterburner" rockets to help him fly a bit faster when he needs to. I figured I would let him invent this, but idk if there's rules for inventing alchemical items. I figured each use should cost the same as a potion of expeditious retreat. So 50 gp per dose of fuel. I figured letting it be activated as a swift action, but have a 10% chance of also burning him for 1d4 fire damage, might be fun, for such a makeshift device. Any thoughts? This is for 1e btw.

>>96899447
tranny as she troons

>>96899447
>pirate campaign
For me it turned into
>one player has a flying PC
>turns invisible
>flies to other ship
>lights sails on fire
>kineticist becomes capable of invisible plus flight by level 10
>game becomes a power wank
>they defeat the British East India Trading Company fleet
>call it gg and retire.
Introducing mechanics for cramped quarters fighting or climbing rigging hardly ever mattered. It was just a regular campaign that used the same battlemat for like 75 percent of the combats.

>pf2e doesn't need 11-20lvl content, we are sissy
>pf2e doesn't need THE FUCKING FIGHTER
you are here

>>96899954
what is wrong with you?
that adventure isn't even woke

>>96897393 (OP)
>TQ: Have you played as an undead character?
I am in a game with one in my party and it's mostly just been kind of miserable, as it feels like their being undead is purely negative because it overcomplicates healing AND makes every social encounter seem to take 5x as long as we have to reassure every NPC we meet that "no, THIS undead is safe to be around"
>What material is missing from undead options?
A reason to play one that isn't just "muh oc donut steel"

>>96899973
>look inside
>entire thread going "Bro what the fuck are you talking about? Fuck off"

>>96897393 (OP)
I'm about to start my first PF2E campaign and I immediately jumped at the opportunity to play a Dhampir (later vampire if all goes well) and basically just ported my first TTRPG character without a bunch of homebrew bullshit

>>96899959
"luckily" my playgroup is pretty novice-level at Pathfinder and unlikely to come up with cheese builds. The campaign I have in mind involves living tallships and some undersea adventures, not just typical ship-to-ship combat. Was just trying to find rules that make the ship stuff more interesting than the baseline vehicle rules.

>kill someone because I don't like them (rogue)
Chaotic Evil
>kill someone because I don't like them (paladin)
Lawful Good

Am I misunderstanding make an impression or something. If the group makes an NPC helpful and then goes back a while later they have to make the NPC helpful again? That seems like a ton of rolling.

>>96901913
Your character WILL only ever have a temporary influence on the world unless it involves bringing an enemy's HP to zero anon, and you WILL like it.

help me come up with a pf2 adventure please. My forever GM wants a break and I want to run some adventures for him but can't think of anything. Level 5...

>>96901220
>kill someone because it protects others from them (paladin)
FTFY

I'm a level 6 Thaumatruge going into level 7, and I need to pick which implement I get adept benefits for. I'm using the Amulet and Regalia implements, and I'm finding it hard to choose. FWIW I'm a dex thaumaturge with an air repeater.
Amulet would give our group more survivability. which is always good.
Regalia gives us more damage and +will saves, which while against mental effects only, a lot of will saving throws are against mental effects.
I tend to stand close to my allies since repeaters only have 30 feet range anyway, but what would you pick?

2e

There are a bunch of ancestries that have tails, and you can easily separate the type of tail into animal and reptilian. Why aren't there any universal ancestry feats focused on tails?

>>96903459
What is your party comp?

>>96903706
Fighter, magus, exemplar and cleric.

>>96903682
I'm not a furry, if that's what you're implying. I ask because I'm working on my own version of kitsune, specifically to make them less furry and more magic focused, and I notice that they don't have a single fucking feat focused on their fucking magic tails, and then I realize that there are a bunch of tail focused feat, but they're restricted to specific ancestries for no reason

>>96903720
Couple follow up questions, during combat, do you find yourself using the amulet reaction a lot? What skill are you bumping to master at 7? I'm guessing you are the face so regalia is also helping you out of combat but I have literally played with a thaumaturge who didn't speak common or invest in the face skills. Does your party use Follow the Expert a lot when you are the expert?

>>96902543
Look through some level 7-8 monsters until you find something that'd be a cool final fight then work backwards from there.
If you want more direction than that, take a category of monsters and fill a mansion with them. Pick undead and it's a haunted mansion, or go demons and have it some kind of cultist place that just got through opening a portal to hell, or just make it so a bunch of bandits found it abandoned and started using it as a base of operations.

Pathfinder 2e

How do I build my Wizard in a way that I can support my team of a Rogue and a Champion well?

>>96904210
Multiclass alchemist to hand out shit, pick School of Rooted Wisdom for temp HP focus spell.

>>96903652
because paizo is fucking retarded and decided that universal feats would be just TOO MUCH customization, god forbid you have a good number of options always available instead of your class and ancestry choices locking you out of a tons of things that would make sense

>>96897393 (OP)
>PF1E
Playing noob an unchained rogue for the first time. What skill unlocks should I be looking at the most?

>>96904754
Noob playing*

>>96904210
Step 1: change to a resentment witch or maestro bard
Wizard, as a class, exists solely to make the other casters look better. Doesn't do a very good job of it since 90% of the martials are right there mogging every caster, but there's basically nothing of value that wizards offer a team unless you're doing some hyper specific meme build that involves at minimum mythic rules and FA.

>>96904754
Whatever skill you have put the full skill points in.
But honestly, basically only Acrobatics, Intimidate, and Heal are worth remembering that you have unlocks in them. Others might work sometimes, but generally require that you have build around them.

>>96903811
I took gunslinger as my free archetype, so I tend to use Fakeout a good deal when a +1 or a +2 can turn a hit into a crit for one of the melee folks. Otherwise I tend to use the amulet reaction decently often because I don't have any other reactions to use. I took diplomacy to master so I'm the party face. My party has no idea wtf follow the expert is.

Took a little break from the more difficult streamers to make an All American Gal. I haven't had the opportunity to make many just straight up Fighters yet, I was debating over whether or not I was going to make her a Trench Fighter since she's supposed to be styled after a WW1 war horse, but based off of her presentation she seemed more like a Captain America sort of symbolic leader more than someone actually in the trenches herself getting blown up by mortars. Plus I dumped her Dex so the archetype actually wouldn't do much for me mechanically.

As always, if you want to see any of the others I've done, you can find them here: https://x.com/DrumerThead/status/1985723986894782621

>>96904210
>>96904927
Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with this anon. Base Wizard lacks any good tools to be valid supports compared to the other casters. It probably is the worst of the lot. Runelord and War Mage are MUCH better options if you still wanna be a Wizard, but if you still want to go vanilla, Fireworks Technician or Alchemist MC can help out. Or Witch MC for stuff like Cauldron or Ceremonial Knife.

Any cool suggestions what loot to sprinkle around for a lv3 flurry ranger? I think he's going to go unga bunga strikes because he has a forceful weapon.

>>96897393 (OP)
Are axes just complete ass in PF2e, or am I missing some obvious combination or broken-ass cultural weapon?

>>96908761
They're mostly shit. I can see a use case for a dwarven waraxe on something like a giant barb for sweep-traited swipes on what's basically a better bastard sword but the crit spec isn't very good, there are no reach ones and the weapon group has a big lack of deadly/fatal options.

Have any of you guys used the Folklorist Dedication in PF2e? Was thinking of picking it up for a flashy Grandeur Champion Gladiator that uses performance for demoralizing via fancy moves and distracting performance, but not entirely if it's worth the action tax to sustain it each round to give a party member +1 status bonus to attack and saves against a single target every 10 minutes.

>>96897393 (OP)
give me your top 3 busted archetypes in 2e

>>96910119
Mulitclasses
>Psychic MC
>Champion MC
>Rogue MC

Honorable Mention goes to Guardian MC

Generic MCs
>Spirit Warrior
>Medic
>Blessed One

>>96910155
For some elaboration on my choices
>Psychic MC and Spirit Warrior have the dubious honor of making their respective classes, Psychic and Monk, almost painfully redundant.
>SW as an archetype is honestly pretty mid after the initial dedication, but the raw power of such really does carry you hard and mixes in everything. I glaze Monk a fair bit, but I'm not going to pretend that the reason most people pick it isn't its defenses, but Flurry of Blows. Well...here you go.
>Psychic MC is some of the greatest value you can add on any half/full-caster, all without needing to run a Psychic.
>Champion MC is similar value, but for frontliners not named Fighter. For longer campaigns that get out the early-game level, this helps match you up with Fighter's chassis in pretty much everything baring Bravery. And it is redundant enough that Fighter DOESN'T want to poach it! Mission Failed Successfully!
>Rogue MC doesn't hurt Rogues already in the party, but it does add plenty of value to more squishy builds or those that also want to skillmonkey. Rogue's low-level feats are also great, Dread Striker and Gang Up fit in every party composition.
>Medic and Blessed One are still the two most potent non-Cleric healing options available. They slap in any healer's kit and easily turn the adventuring day rules on its head. The Mercy nerf DID hurt BO's viability, hence why you don't hear too many people shout its praises, but it still a good way to keep your guys going against anything.
>Guardian MC is Champion MC that changes out the reaction (anyone else find it strange that they never gave a real name to the reactions, but just "Champion's Reaction"?) for Taunt and feats you actually want to buy.

>>96910155
>>96910314
This mostly just feels damning of other character options if these are the most busted things.

Spirit Warrior only really bugs me because 1) Everything it does is shit monk should be capable of doing (without needing an archetype), and 2) the level at which things in it become available just feels incorrect. Every level 6 feat only feels like it's at that level so they can force you to take the oath feats at level 4 to punish you if you use Free Archetype.

Monk really feels like it directly opposes fighter by being very simple at a glance and then punishing you with mediocrity for not knowing the deeper tech and trying to just play it straight, rather than just fucking working regardless like Fighter does

>>96910556

>Spirit Warrior only really bugs me because 1) Everything it does is shit monk should be capable of doing (without needing an archetype), and 2) the level at which things in it become available just feels incorrect. Every level 6 feat only feels like it's at that level so they can force you to take the oath feats at level 4 to punish you if you use Free Archetype.

The PC2 Monk archetype Flurry debacle, then release of TXCG with the Spirit Warrior just really put the final nail in the coffin of "These people have no idea what the fuck they're doing!"

>>96910556
Archetypes, both general and multiclasses, aren't really that powerful given the power limits of Class Feats. So a "busted" archetype isn't going to be something even that build defining compared to your normal Class/Class Feats. It is more the "tone" these archetypes have set, between fucking over full classes or changing how we view the meta of the game, in regards to the healnig ones.

>spoiler
That's always been the folly of Monk, no matter the edition. People see it and think it is "Fist Fighter but Now With Sauce(TM)", and not its own ideal that meant to stand out. It going to be complex by its nature, it just that many editions flounder on the mechanics of such.

>>96905592
And a little two for one special. I had an extended weekend off of work, so I figure if I've got the time why not make another one?

>>96910155
>>96910314
Pretty much agree with these. I would probably slot in Kineticist and Wrestler over over some of your other choices. Wood is the most well known strong one, but stuff like Thermal Nimbus and some of the water impulses are underrated. Wood and Earth Armors are also excellent to give better AC, on top of giving you stuff like Bulwark and Shield Block.

Wrestler speaks for itself. Free Titan Wreslter, free skill bump for the best skill in the game, feats that do everything from let you "grab" AC to punishing creatures for escaping your grabs.

>>96911071
>The PC2 Monk archetype Flurry debacle, then release of TXCG with the Spirit Warrior just really put the final nail in the coffin of "These people have no idea what the fuck they're doing!"
Okay but I lived through PF1e splats, I didn't need that to tell me that Paizo didn't know what in the goddamn they were doing

>>96911084
>That's always been the folly of Monk, no matter the edition.
Yea and somehow this is the least fucked up monk, when it's still really fucked up. It really should not be such a hard class to understand or play properly when it's such a basic bitch, common fantasy to be "Guy Who Punches Good (and A Lot)"

>>96902543
Children are being abducted from a village in order to be sacrificed for a dark ritual. The adventurers need to descend into the crypts beneath an abandoned monastery to rescue them before the next full moon.

If one of the players says its the plot of Diablo, tell them you don't speak spanish.

>>96911661
Not that anon, but Wrestler always seems to be good with a lot of melee classes, especially with the Gymnast Swashbuckler from what I've seen since it synergizes well with it due to getting panache from grappling, repositioning, tripping and shoving. I like the cool abilities and flavor of Kineticists, especially the Wood/Earth mix for defense and healing it provides, but they often feel very limited in what they can multiclass into since the Elemental Blasts don't count as strikes and wouldn't trigger stuff like the Investigator's Attack Stratagem.

>>96911661
ehhh.
Wrestler is pretty great, but I wouldn't call it busted. It's best things (since Whirling Throw was nerfed) is that quick bump in Athletics proficiency and easy access to Combat Grab. It isn't the kind of meta-defying "win more" button the options I listed are. It's on the same tier as Scout, Pistol Phenom, Fireworks Technican, or Acrobat -- an incredible slot-in for your build/statline but there are obviously higher powered picks.
And Kineticist does have great feats, but the +2 to CON prerequisite is the most taxing requirement and the dedication might as well do nothing for most classes. Plus the inability to mesh with other options really handicaps its possible power.

>>96911668
>It really should not be such a hard class to understand or play properly when it's such a basic bitch, common fantasy to be "Guy Who Punches Good (and A Lot)"
It sort of comes down to 2 issues
>"Guy that punches really hard" is kind of a different fantasy compared to "guy with a really cool magic sword"
>Redundancy
The better you make the core punch fantasy, the more you downplay the effectiveness of other traditional martial skills, especially when you introduce actual physicality to weapons (sunder rules/durability, ammo, weight, metals). So it becomes an awkward balancing act of finding ways to amp up punching and other Asian martial arts without making all the other options less valuable. Hence the super weird ki systems everyone makes for them. Hell, some fault can even be pinned towards Cleric/Warpriest/CoDzilla issues, with how it ends up being the "disciple of a martial order" deal.
It doesn't help grognards have a history of getting really uppity when a traditional fantasy game starts getting too weeby, see the longstanding joke of the Book of Weeaboo Fightan Majick.

>>96903652
How does this look? Am I missing any ancestry?

>>96911847
>Kholo
>Skin Tail
Also what if my Amurrun is sphynxlike? Or a [Skin Tail] race has hirsutism?

Is this for feats like Prehensile Tail?

>>96911969
Then you talk with your GM, smartass, I'm going based on the official heritages.

And yes, I'm converting all tail feats into universal ancestry feats.

>>96911969
Why don't we say this to every single ancestry feat? What if my human is just Large?

>Kineticist MC stays at expert proficiency
What the hell. Caster archetypes at least get to master.

Is there any chat coloring module for foundry v13, that is working similar to how Dorako UI was working on foundry v12?
On 13 half of the options gone, and I cannot color whole message in player's colors

>>96911725
Monk in 2e isnt even that bad. It just needed a few quality of life buffs but the remaster completely skipped it while buffing other martial classes (Same with the Ranger).

Minor changes
> Unarmed attacks have Parry inbuilt and you cant use shields. Stances with Parry give you a +2 bonus instead.
> You gain a stance at level 1 that you can enter for free at the start of combat.
> FoB gets a MAP buff at level 11.

Major Change
> At level 1 the monk can choose to be legendary unarmed attack or legendary unarmed defense.

>>96912360
Again, I actually do glaze Monk a fair bit, it IS one of the best designs in the sphere and it does work. It just that Spirit Warrior really does BTFO A LOT of Monk stances/Martial Artist, and Overwhelming Combination is a pretty large jump in power for a Level 2 feat.

> At level 1 the monk can choose to be legendary unarmed attack or legendary unarmed defense.
You can't really have this. Defense doesn't scale at the same time as offense options, it is both getting Legendary Attacks AND the advanced scaling that makes Fighter good (else we be glazing the hell out of Solarian of all things), and no one wants a Cleric Doctrine situation again. That's just too awkward and page consuming a system to actually handle much. A Brawler Monk would need to be a dedicated Class Archetype to allow the choice.

>>96912124
I think they view it as an attack, not a spell. Multiclass attacks only go up to Expert while casting goes to Master, but cantrips and spells are 2 actions anyway. Unfortunately it does come at the sacrifice of Master DCs

>>96912764
Tampering with accuracy is most infuriating way to balance classes.

>PF2E

If I wanted to make a holy striker type of character, similar to 4e Avenger or Paladin of 3.5, is there any hope for Champion? The game does have FA. Or should I just go for Fighter with Champion, Cleric, Sorcerer or Oracle archetype? Is Avenger Rogue worth a damp?

>>96911725
Okay but that just dances around that monk needs some way to better define and communicate what the fuck it's meant to be DOING, and not make all the ways to best optimize it be obtuse and counterintuitive (like being a robot for the best AC, or using a goddamn SHIELD on a MONK).

>>96912360
I agree with most of this but would argue it's fine at its current proficiency scaling (outside of its Perception, which is insultingly shit), l the only problem with it is that its unarmored scaling is functionally fake at level 1 unless you actively go out of the class to fix it (with either ancestry/versatile heritage or drakeblood mutagen), which kind of feels wildly unnecessary.

I'll unironically say that monastic weapon should also just be built into the monk, full stop, and the weapon feat you can take instead is just to share handwrap runes. We solved this shit with Unchained Monk in 1e for fuck's sake why did we go BACKWARDS?
>but what if I don't want to use a weapon???
Then just don't? Other classes get extra shit they don't use all the fucking time.

>>96913080
Justice Champion with 2H Reach, Marshal Archetype (Inspiring Stance) and Smite can be pretty nasty, but you are ultimately still primarily a Defender, and will forever hear the echo of "but the shield of reckoning build is better".

>should I just go for Fighter with Champion, Cleric, Sorcerer or Oracle archetype?
Fighter, Barbarian, Exemplar (trivial to refluff into being "Oracle but Martial") main class, and one of your listed classes as archetypes, is probably your best bet for pure striker. Rogue main class is good but not a main frontliner.

>Is Avenger Rogue worth a damp?
No, it's okay as far as Class Archs go, but that still means it's bad

>>96910314
>And it is redundant enough that Fighter DOESN'T want to poach it! Mission Failed Successfully!
What? Champion is amazing on fighter and the sole redundancy is in the dedication. Blessing of the devoted is great, the focus spell is strong, and the reaction is extremely good, especially for fighter who can take extra reactions so they aren't sacrificing reactive strikes to use it.
I would go further to say that champion is easily a top 3 dedication for fighter. Where did you get the idea it was something fighters don't want?

>>96910314
>Champion MC is similar value, but for frontliners not named Fighter. For longer campaigns that get out the early-game level, this helps match you up with Fighter's chassis in pretty much everything baring Bravery. And it is redundant enough that Fighter DOESN'T want to poach it! Mission Failed Successfully!
>>96913458
>the sole redundancy is in the dedication.
Even the dedication is pretty alright in the right campaign, if you sanctify as holy, you get to trigger holy weak weakness on all your strikes. Is that worth it? Eh, depends, but better than nothing.

>>96913080
Fighter main class, Champion, Exemplar, Barbarian archetypes. Champion makes you Holy and gives you retributive strike and either a speed boost or an extra weapon rune, Exemplar gives you more damage and some self healing, barbarian is sort of an optional addition if you aren't using any concentrate actions and are willing to squeeze out just a bit more damage in exchange for some defense penalty.
For your Ikons, Barrows Edge and Scar of the Survivor if you're skipping barbarian, or replace Scar with Gleaming Blade if you're either using barbarian or want to trade a little self-healing for more damage.

2e Monk homebrew
>FoB is 1-action 2 Strikes, second strike is with the same MAP as first
OR
>FoB is a free action Strike with a requirement of "You have performed an action with the attack trait this turn."
Affected feats edited as necessary, ofc.

>>96899409
>cleric of abadar mysteriously found body strung on a tree

>>96913744
I have unironically considered attaching a clause to monk's mystic strikes that makes Flurry of Blows allow both strikes to be made at -5 MAP (-4 with agile, as normal) if you flurry after a combat maneuver

>>96903747
... Huh. You're right. Weird.

>>96913439
>No, it's okay as far as Class Archs go

My issue is that Ruffian with any of the "holy" archetypes is just better avenger?

>>96913529
Isn't channel smiting worth it at all? I know it's more of a 5e-ism but it does look tempting in kind of a Timmy way.

>>96914087
The only kitsune feat where your tails are relevant is foxfire, and that's more because of change shape, they really wanted to make sure you could only use unarmed attacks in your true form, so then they could force you to pick hybrid form if you wanted to use them in your alternate form, so yes, the only kitsune feat that is related to your tails is because of feat tax.

>>96914268
>My issue is that Ruffian with any of the "holy" archetypes is just better avenger?
I mean, yea, hence the part you didn't quote of "but it's still bad". It is less bad than other class archetypes, but still bad compared to the base class, where you can just be a Thief or Ruffian, take a holy archetype, and just be an infinitely better class. Which sucks because they attached My Boy, Zadim (originally the Iconic Slayer), to Avenger.

It's kind of impressive that even if I think Vindicator is mechanically worse, it still feels like it has more mechanical justification for existing than Avenger.

>>96914268
>Isn't channel smiting worth it at all?
For a multiclass, no, definitely not. You're spending a total of 6 feats (dedication, basic/expert/master spellcasting, divine castigation, channel smite) to get 1-2 competent uses of it, and even then you can only use it on undead/unholy enemies unless you know you won't be fighting any such enemies for that day and can prepare harm instead of heal in your high rank slots.
Also, on a fighter chassis, it's probably gonna be worse than just doing two strikes. It's DEFINITELY going to be worse than using Exemplar's flowing spirit strike from the gleaming blade ikon.
If you really, really want the thematics of burning spell slots to smite people... sure, I guess you could go for it. It's not like you can really fuck up a fighter since the chassis is so strong.

>>96914356
Sorry, didn't mean to misquote you or imply that it ain't bad. I'm just phoneposting atm. I also want justice for Zadim.

Vindicator crushes my soul. I so wanted for it not to suck.

Speaking of Avenger and Inquisitor, did I miss anything with my hb? https://scribe.pf2.tools/v/M89l6Vvf

How exactly are the PF2e Undead Archetypes meant to work if they’re all second level feats and you have to die in very specific ways for any of them to be usable per RAW? Are they just point-blank unusable if you’re not starting at second level or higher? Why did Paizo even publish them when they mostly just suck?

>>96914886
They're more meant for narrative purposes. You aren't supposed to start as an undead, you're supposed to take them after shit happens to you in the story that turns you into an undead. They got published because Paizo is retarded.

>>96914886
>Why did Paizo even publish them when they mostly just suck?
Because they were published more as an obligation to be able to say they existed, rather than as real options you are meant to actually want to use. Their use case is either
>you start at level 2+
>your GM just houserules that you have the effect at level 1 and it eats your level 2 feat slot (or FA feat slot) when you level up
>you get it as a bonus feat as a result of dying
>your GM is an asshole and makes you pay one of your feat slots to have it when you die to a random critical hit

>>96914356
>>96914382
I'm gonna ask a genuine question, what makes you think Avenger is better than Vindicator? I feel like it is the other way around, adding Hunt Prey onto Rogue for some actions genuinely hurts their economy and all their other feats are so situational to get their full effect, I think you are actively losing out picking this one. Vindicator ain't great, but they do have plenty of decent options and possible synergies.

>>96915432
Losing out on a functional hunter's edge completely fucks ranger since they are very reliant on having at least something there. +2 to spell attack rolls on a class that is gonna be -4 compared to an actual caster is pathetic

>>96898094
its funny, because i think ghoul and zombie are the only two archetypes that were well made, all of the others are missing really obvious no brainer shit that the archetype shoud've been based around like ghost and posession or are so shit they kinda do nothing like vampire.

>>96915432
Avenger is still a Rogue and even if you ignore all its unique archetype shit, is still mostly doing its job. It is utterly pointless, though.

Vindicator is an actually really interesting idea executed insanely poorly, which makes me more mad. It probably just needs better early focus spells and action economy, and maybe some cantrips built in? Or making its first focus spell apply hunt prey + only cost a focus point when you would hit and actually mark a target?

>>96915550
I'm personally terminally autistic and a new player so vampire is sort of perfect for me. I understand why people wouldn't like it, especially if they want to play something brand new or don't want to forego class feats (understandable)

>>96915736
I'll be honest you are better off playing a Dhampir than using the Vampire archetype, you are infinitely less fucked over, and actually get ANYTHING out of it.

>>96915758
Thanks for the advice, anon.

>set up a big battle where the party's home base is being attacked
>only now realize it's going to be a complete slog to go through if I'm actually rolling for the NPCs
Hoisted by my own retard (me).

Anyone have tips on running larger battles? I'm thinking of just dividing the turns into 'enemy' and 'ally' and basically letting each team get three actions. The party/creatures they engage with directly would get proper turns but otherwise I'd want to be keeping it pretty abstract.

>>96915464
>>96915617
I think Rogue is even worse off at losing its subclass and early game feats. Ruffian is a genuinely good option if you want to use heavier weapons on Rogue, no Mobility means you can't skirmish as well, and Avenger doesn't provide anything of note at any level, outside of Silent the Profane -- which Vindicator also gets!
Not getting Precision or Flurry does hurt in the long run, but between access to Domain Initiate, Vindicator's Judgment, and Call the Hunt, it does start to pop off for its investment compared to what you lost. Class Archetypes aren't really something that solely be carried by the base class or kit, they do need to stand out and synergize thanks to the rather large opportunity costs they demand. Both Vindicator and Avenger are MASSIVELY scuffed, but I think more people are biased against Vindicator not living up the (honestly impossible for 2e to supply) standards of Inquisitor, they ignore that it does come together in a way that Avenger doesn't.

Avenger is an option based around an insta-kill mechanic that takes bare minimum *4 rounds* to kick in. And a support option that ONLY helps divine casters, people that generally don't go on the offensive. I know this is a fight between coughing babies, but one of them have fucking tuberculosis here...

>>96915944
Okay, but consider this: You still have one of the top 3 best class chassis in the game, instead of one of the bottom 3.
>No mobility
Huh? You can still take mobility at 4. And if you're using FA you aren't impeded in any way other than just not being ruffian/thief.

>>96915944
My avenger is fun and does good damage with some setup. Went with urgathoa as my god and I use a scythe with haft striker stance. Round 1 is generally
>Hunt prey, run in, strike
then round 2
>Haft striker stance, twin takedown, whatever.
Twin takedown is enabled by the archetype which is a pretty nice get that a lot of people miss.

Once the engine is running it shreds harder than I think a ruffian could with their weapon die limitations. I don't think it's better than a ruffian, I've played one of those before with a longspear which I later swapped for gladius and free hand and both offered a lot of advantages on top of ruffian actually getting worthwhile exclusive feats to take. But if you take vidicator without falling into the trap of the doomed condition feats, it has decent options. I'll shoutout ragathiel as a good pick too, you can easily switch between d12+sneak attack and having a free hand with the bastard sword.

>>96916030 (Me)
meant to say "instead of one of the worse ones" but my mind autocompleted the other half of the sentence when I mentioned rogue being near(or at) the top

>>96916031
>But if you take vidicator
Fuck, I spelled it wrong and I meant avenger.

>>96914268
>>96915944
Ruffians can't sneak attack with anything bigger than a d6 martial. Avenger lets you use shit like greatswords and halberds

>>96915944
Avenger is, again, mostly just a Shitty Ruffian unless you've got a deity weapon you really want to Sneak Attack with with, like a 2H Bastard Sword or Twin Takedown Longsword build or something stupid like that.

"You just have to get through only having complete garbage to finally have anything uniquely good after level 8-10" just feels like a really bad sell and doesn't address the fact that the base abilities you start with are kinda just garbage, imo. A class archetype NEEDS to start out as compelling, it can't sit there and go "trust bro you get something cool later" when "later" might be "straight up the end of the campaign".

>>96916089
Yes, but you need to spend an extra action per enemy to get that extra damage. And compared to a ruffian using a d8 longspear, that's a tradeoff that isn't really worth it when it also costs you dedication slots you could spend on champion MC.
It does have a niche, and going all ragathiel's vengeance sneak attacking with your giant d12 bastard sword is cool as fuck. But it could really do with a champion oath style clause where you can either dedicate yourself to a certain enemy type to be able to hunt prey against them as a free action for that day, or get a free action hunt prey against an enemy in response to watching them attack an ally or innocent bystander.
Without something like that, it is still generally just a worse ruffian.

>>96916030
Pushing Mobility down to 4 means you also pushing Dread Striker to 6 and Gang Up to 8. Rogues have a bit of feat tax issue thanks to how potent those feats are, which isn't necessarily Avenger's fault, but it does go to show that by default you really are compromising Rogue's strengths for very few perks. And yes, FA is more common than not, but it doesn't really answer the fact that Avenger gives NOTHING compared to bogstandard Rogue feats.

Also Ranger's chassis is fine, far from Bottom 3. It's still a d10 STR/DEX martial with great Perception and the ability to count mobs in difficult terrain off-guard. It's a bit the bare minimum of what the meta asks for, but you are underselling what it does add to a party, before subclasses come in.

>>96916205
But that's the thing, Sneak Attack with Bastard Swords IS the only base ability worth taking on Avenger. MAYBE Twin Takedown but at that point why not play Ranger, Swashbuckler, or Fighter with Double Slice? If we are going to complain about Vindicator taking forever to come online, why are we letting Avenger pass when it have zero legs. AND we are putting an action tax on Rogue at the same time too!
I do agree that both options should have better early game feats and features. Vindicator's Mark is bad and the +1/-1 to Spells against your Hunt Prey is niche without some creativity, but there are later options that chain together and I don't think they are worth writing off. Hell, Instructive Strike + Monster Hunter can be fun to abuse!

>want to play a slightly remixed version of a base class
>six billion feat tax and locked out of archetypes until the campaign ends for the crime of wanting a slightly different experience
yeah im thinkin fuck paizo

>>96916316
>why are we letting Avenger pass when it have zero legs
Oh I am not letting it pass, like you said, we're comparing turds at this point. I consider Avenger less of one purely because it immediately gives its best feature from the start, so I can just write it off immediately and not get mad at all its wasted potential-because there wasn't actually any potential at all!

>>96916338
I don't mind the concept of the dedication lock on CAs. 1e Archetypes were the same type of committal, they just were backloaded and variable depending on what got changed per class. And CAs been spanning from "slight remix" to "massive conceptual change that applies to multiple potential classes", so I see why the dedication lock have been universal on them all (lmao at poor Flexible Spellcaster bricking itself RAW thanks to not having the Special tag to IGNORE putting the Dedication lock in the trait). And even if you aren't playing Free Archetype, it isn't like they take that long on even Paizo's shorter campaigns, and you likely missed out on the top-tier shit anyway in such circumstances.

I do think CAs should "pay themselves back" more often. Like how Spellshot can chain into Beast Gunner, there should be more that either let you take additional archetypes prior to the lockout or just make the dedication not worthless and levels up on its own. Or at least more Additional Feats. As they are now, the system itself definitely filled itself in better than when it first started, but I do understand the apprehension about them.

also give Elementalist real healing. I'm glad we got Gentle Breeze and Soothing Spring, that means a Wizard or Arcane caster actually gets a good trade for abandoning their list, but at that point just give us an actually good healing option.

>>96916372
I understand that but I think Class Archetypes should be judged as a whole and not their immediate gratification. Again, it isn't like 1e Archetypes are judged solely by how frontloaded their feature sets are.

>>96916500
>I understand that but I think Class Archetypes should be judged as a whole and not their immediate gratification.
Sure, but I also have to factor in the practical play experience of whether or not most people are likely to ever see the "good part", and if that good part literally isn't until the point half of printed campaigns end then it doesn't matter how good those features are. Ideally a class archetype should start good for what you initially trade, and then offer unique new things on top of that. It's similar to why Battle Herald pisses me the fuck off-it's not an inherently bad idea, but it's executed so poorly and so backloaded (sometimes with things that should be foundational level 1-2 features, like the level 20 feat) that it becomes pointless.

PF2E
Do you guys hand wave healing after combat? Like "Oh you spend 30 minutes and all heal to full"

>>96916859
Unless there's a specific time pressure, yeah, though 30 minutes is probably only if they have good out of combat healing, shit like ward medic+continual recovery or garden of healing so they can get everyone topped and refocus in 11 mins. Level 1, I probably tell them they're spending 6 hours unless they want to actually roll it out and I'll always let them voluntarily roll it out to potentially save time if they want to.

>>96916911
I got a champion with lay on hands, an alchemist who can craft healing potions, and a witch who is kind of has a medicine thing going on.

>>96915876
if you're expecting your players to clean house on all of them at once like on big fight use troops, if you think thats lame and want to run enemies as one big siege just have the groups the pcs are currently engaged with be in an encounter and everyone else just gets vague rolls to determine how their skirmishes are going.

Why would anyone ever play divine list if you are not even gonna focus on healing?

2e

>the most defining trait of the fighter is their proficiency with weapons
>the fighter archetype does not give you trained in any type of weapon
>exemplar dedication gives you trained in martial weapons for some reason though

Just give empty-handed monks legendary strikes. Also give monks monastic weaponry for free with the stipulation that they cannot get legendary strikes because of the aforementioned empty handed rule. This isn't even a direct buff because there is no version of empty-handed monk that's actually good, and there is no version of monastic weaponry monk that's actually good.

If you buff general features like FoB or hand out free stances then it's going to primarily strengthen shit people already don't like like captain america monks. Parry isn't a great solution either because people are still going to carry random shit in their hands with parry, just not shields.

>>96912360
It would never be correct to choose legendary defense over legendary attack. Attack is simply a better stat than a single defense, especially on monks because so much of the class is dependent on attack checks to function at a basic level. I would need legendary defense plus a second legendary save, which generates save upgrades at a level that matters, to even consider it over a strike proficiency improvement.

>>96920330
Yeah, this is why you can't really make it a choice. End of the day, combat is a DPS-race.

>>96920288
> Also give monks monastic weaponry for free with the stipulation that they cannot get legendary strikes because of the aforementioned empty handed rule
We know for a fact this doesn't work. Even if it functions completely fine, people hate split proficiencies. It is why Rogue just got full martial scaling and people shit on Drifter Gunslinger so much.
>If you buff general features like FoB or hand out free stances then it's going to primarily strengthen shit people already don't like like captain america monks
At some point, you just gotta say that's a skill issue. This is the only place that complains about shield monks. Monk doesn't need to be the Legendary Unarmed class, there can be other options for such like a returning Brawler or Shifter. Buffing what already is there and providing real momentum to its high defenses is what is needed, especially with Guardian coming into the picture. When I complain about Spirit Warrior eating so much of Monk's appeal, it's because it's such a big boost to both offense AND defense for minimal costs.
>Parry isn't a great solution either because people are still going to carry random shit in their hands with parry, just not shields.
Honestly being able to parry with your hands full is probably an impactful buff in its own right. Would love to do a Juggler Stumbling Stance Clown Monk. When combined with a way to create forward momentum, I feel like any parry bonuses would be good and make Monk's identity more clear cut.

>>96920888
>At some point, you just gotta say that's a skill issue. This is the only place that complains about shield monks.
This is blatantly false. The single most used house rule for monks is to give their fists parry, often a straight up +2 parry regardless of stance. Ask anywhere and it will practically be assumed that you're running it rather than not.

>>96920910
It's less about being a thing that must be fixed about Monk, moreso the raw skub this place generates at the idea of picking up a shield or the "Captain America Playstyle". Parry on Fist is a pretty obvious patch that we are mostly just waiting to be thrown in in an errata (where the fuck is the Fall 2025 errata, Paizo?), but it isn't something people actively complain to such a degree, especially with there being multiple Monk parry weapons you can pick up.

This is the only place that throws a shitfit about the idea of a Shield-wearing Monk. Most don't even think about it being a real option or just fine with it.

>>96920966
>This is the only place that throws a shitfit about the idea of a Shield-wearing Monk. Most don't even think about it being a real option or just fine with it.
Baffling statement because I see it basically any time a conversation about Monk optimization comes up, pretty much anywhere. Someone brings up the shield interaction and then 5 people go "What? On monk? That's silly as hell". Nobody thinks the Captain America playstyle is silly on other classes.

I know I really only care because Spirit Warrior exists and does a ton of things I already thought monk should be capable of in-class. I'm still probably more annoyed at the unarmored "natural armor" situation for being more obtuse and stupid, and at the class just desperately needing SOME kind of extra sauce and direction to more firmly guide people to its actual strengths.

A brawler or shifter existing would be kinda sick too tho, damn.

think they'll actually kill off cheliax fully or just lead to the devil witch getting dethroned? judging by the hints it doesn't look good for notnazigermany in their upcoming war with freedomville

>>96923720
I'm 70% certain they will kill off Cheliax, at least the way we know it. Between the murder attempt on slavery and infernal contracts, and how apparent the modern writers don't really want to handle any of subject matter beyond "Hellknights are cool~", I doubt we will recognize what they have in store as our beloved Demon Nazi Germany Fun Land.
The 30% does comes from how...little they like actually making permanent changes to the 'verse like. Or at least in ways that matters well, as War of Immortals/The Godsrain have been oddly low-impact for how widespread it is and how many gods were killed. Yeah, we lost Gorum and the Osiran Gods, Treerazer been dealt with and the Starstone is eating people, but otherwise we sort of lack real consequences that explicit force Paizo to close out a storyline. Hence why I call it a "murder attempt on slavery".Hell, somehow Xanderghul returned, so I don't know how much Paizo is willing to commitment on such.

>>96920888
>At some point, you just gotta say that's a skill issue
Monks having literally zero mechanical benefit for fighting in a culturally, historically accurate fashion is very much a game design issue, not a skill issue. If you like gay ass monks whose only cultural equivalent is literally capeshit then be my guest, that playstyle needs to go, but empty handed monks need to be compensated for not trading the entire class identity away for a statstick if the class is going to have an identity. And no, being able to grapple two things at once is not meaningful compensation.
>proceeds to post an image of a monk that doesn't carry shit in her hands while she's fighting

>>96924066
be my guest, that playstyle doesn't need to go*

>>96920966
DND hasn't had shield proficiency on monks since 4e. As far as I'm concerned the consensus on this topic has already been formed and Paizo is just being lazy and/or maliciously ignorant.

>>96923970
I think the main issue for them is if they kill off cheliax they have to do it in a way that prevents everyone from endlessly asking why andoran isn't just curbstomping the rest of the world, the evil parts anyway. because cheliax was set up as the #1 power so if it goes and is absorbed by andoran who is going to stop them? taldor? lmao

>>96924152
Again, shields are only the symptom. The core issue is that monks don't get rewarded for being empty handed. Since monks don't get rewarded for being empty handed, they're not a "fights empty handed class", they are a "fights while carrying random junk" class.

Even if monks were banned from using shields, they'd just carry a whip or a magic item or a consumable into every fight anyway because there is simply no reason not to play a monk like an actual martial artist.

>>96924342
No reason to play monk like an actual martial artist, that is. I need to stop posting while half asleep.

Where can I find lore or info on how the gods interact with each other?

Like Pharasma is the top deity but do the Tian Xi gods fuck with her?

>>96924342
What would you give them then?

>>96924464
either the wikis online or gods and magic books if you're looking for the actual sources
afaik basically every deity respects her since she's impartial 99% of the time, unless you're deliberately fucking with her domain like urgathoa

>>96924254
Ehh, you can argue places like Geb or things under the control of the Whispering Tyrant would require more strategic planning/the assembling of the Pathfinder Avengers. And you can always pull a Forgotten Realms and just drop a big natural disaster onto the town to reset the power levels ala the Mana Plague.

>>96924342
No, there's plenty of stuff that rewards monks for being empty hand. Stances, Mystic/Metal Strikes, Powerful Fist, there's plenty of riders and bonuses you can put on an unarmed strike too. And all the base perks of unarmed strikes like being impossible to Disarm. 2e's hand economy is a very impactful part of its meta compared to its contemporaries. Parry wouldn't even fix your quibble because that's only a +1 bonus, not a +2 and it would either be a separate feat or another text block that improves it, and it still would be worse than just getting a normal-ass shield you can Shield Block with. The only thing they are "missing" is Legendary Unarmed, which you can only really justify with Soldier in terms of someone that gets Legendary Defenses AND an Attack.

And realistically, you can't really justify a Monk NOT being able to use their hands. There's plenty of monks in media that do use items, like the Drunken Master and their sake gourd or the weapon improvisation scene. People like feeling they are acknowledging the tangibility of the world, that their hands are more than just weapons. Plus I don't really see many people that like hand restrictions on stuff like Thaumaturge, Laughing Shadow/Aloof Firmament Magus, or even the Strike restrictions on Monk Stances. It doesn't feel great to lose out on so much opportunities like consumables and maneuvers, even if you are rewarded with a die size increase or more damage on your weapon. At least with dual-wielders or heavy weapon users, they opt-in such, not that it was core to the "class fantasy".

>>96924466
There's a lot of options. In the case of giving them parry, make the circumstance bonus to AC equal the number of free hands they have, or give them a general circumstance bonus to combat checks they make using their hands, or give stances an additional feature reliant on them being empty-handed, or a combination of the above. It's not like there's a lack of thematic reasons for monks to be empty-handed, it's just a matter of picking something and giving it a tangible mechanical benefit.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Bloodlines.aspx?ID=23
Does anybody have a source for the PFS note for Draconic Sorcerers giving a table of draconic exemplars?

>>96924523
This isn't a question of whether martial arts displines that can use tools exist, it's a question of whether martial arts discplines that require both hands be empty exist. The latter group is what currently has zero mechanical representation in game.

>>96924523
Also nobody here is saying unarmed strikes are inhernetly bad. The problem is that you can make unarmed strikes at full effectiveness without actually being unarmed in the first place.

>>96897393 (OP)
>Goggins Ghoul running from another horny white woman

Such is unlife of Ghoulgins

>>96924523
I'd say dual wielders and heavy weapon users are a bad comparison, because both fighting styles have explicit features that give people a reason to opt in in the first place. Monks currently have no such features for being empty-handed and therefore can be considered feature incomplete compared to other martials.

>>96924523
>Ehh, you can argue places like Geb or things under the control of the Whispering Tyrant would require more strategic planning/the assembling of the Pathfinder Avengers. And you can always pull a Forgotten Realms and just drop a big natural disaster onto the town to reset the power levels ala the Mana Plague.
I feel like the main place this would affect would be molthune/nirmanthas/isger/nidal
without cheliax isger is beyond fucked, nidal goes from having an evil ally to FREEDOM incarnate on their doorstep, and molthune would now be bordered by nirmanthas' main allies.
that said my guess is they'll do some nonsense that leads to andorans army getting nuked so the status quo outside of cheliax itself can't be changed too much

>>96920245
Are you ok? The very first line of Fighter Dedication is "You become trained in martial weapons". And they have a L12 feat to become Expert in Simple/Martial and Trained in Advanced.

Now, its still dogshit, but it IS there.

>>96906903
>>96904927
What is the wizard class good for, then?
I picked wizard because I wanted to play a class that requires more thinking than a beatstick or a party face- which I have played a lot in other systems.

On top of that, I've kind of built my character around being kind of like a scientist-like guy.

>>96926679
Wizard was just blatantly powercrept by the Remaster + errata. Witch really ate a lot of its lunch when it got so many good tools, other casters have far stronger feats, and the change to how school spells work means you are constantly debating with your GM on what spells fit in while other Granted Spell users just have things.
Now, its Class Archetypes are actually pretty strong: Runelord is genuinely amazing despite the anathemas, War Mage has good practicalities and the buff to AOE spells is something they should have base, and Elementalist been secretly training in the mountains to be actually viable (and Flexible Spellcaster is still waiting for anything...). All of these provide genuine value to the base Wizard playstyle despite their costs, and their own spice is pretty strong. But that still hurts the vanilla Wizards who may be barred from playing these options or wouldn't know they exist.

TL;DR: No good feats and all its unique options are DEEP character building stuff or outclassed by other casters. Play Witch, Witchwarper, or Animist.

Now that it's been out for a little bit, is Starfinder 2e better than Starfinder 1e?

>>96926871
From what little I played of SF1e vs PF2e? Yea, as an actual game you play, its foundation is just way fucking better. It did lose a lot of "sovl" in the transition (Stamina and Resolve, the zany shit some of the races and classes had), inherited a lot of the awkwardness of PF2e, but the game hasn't been out for a full year yet and has all of a single splat book. I guess class balance is also kind of bad, but like, SF1e's class balance is way worse?

Come back in like two years when there's actual content for it I guess.

>>96926871
If you want something fully compatible with PF 2e? SF 2e is better. That being said, 2e stripped away pretty much every single aspect that made it a unique game compared to PF and it's more of a setting book now.
As an example, Stamina Points and Hit Points were baked into the rules in 1e instead of an optional rule and the game was better for it. Your HP pool was pretty damn small compared to PF as a result so anything that bypassed your stamina to do direct HP damage was a much bigger threat (poison, radiation, life drain, etc).

>>96914886
When in doubt, bureaucratize it. Have the local necromancer's guild give people the undead form they want and also a token permitting them to enter cities.

>>96897393 (OP)
What's the difference between Borai and Corpsefolk? Dhampir at get to be sexy vampire option. Skeletons are goofy and silly. What do these two do that are unique?

Which flavor of lizard folk should I use as a base for a Side Blotched Lizard folk?

>Mountain Stance AC as a base feature, scale according to the followup feats if it feels too powerful.
>Parry on fists as a base feature, +2 if not wielding anything or a weapon with parry
>Adamantine Body from MA as a reaction when you're parrying
>FoB gets reduced MAP at level X
>None of this is poachable by MC

>>96926771
>Elementalist been secretly training in the mountains to be actually viable
What changed? Rage of Elements coming out that expanded the spell list?

I want to talk about only the worthy for a second because when the exemplar was released I wrote this off as a flavour feat. You can stop people from lifting your hammer like thor, who cares?

I'm realizing that it's completely cracked. If you've ever played in a party with a wrestler, you know how completely oppressive tripping and grabbing an enemy is, they need to spend a minimum of 2 actions to not be a little bitch on the floor. Only the worthy ups that to 3 actions with no roll or chance of failure on your part and they need to use athletics to break out of it so if they don't have that skill trained, they're fucked, it's like winter sleet all over again. It even has action compression when they break out, you don't need to pick your weapon back up again.

2e Magus would be a better class if it had a scaling Bespell Strikes instead of Spellstrike.

>>96928206
That was one of the things I was considering for a pseudo-CA for the class (doesn't actually use an archetype slot but replaces features)
>Spellstrike replaced with Spell Combat, 2-3 action flourish, cast a spell that requires up to 2 actions to cast (3 if you used the 3-action version) and you can step, stride, or strike before or after the spell is cast
>Arcane Cascade replaced with Enchant Armament, whenever you cast a spell, your next strike deals damage equal to the rank of the spell (or half the rank of the highest rank of spell you can cast, whichever is higher). If the strike misses you still deal this bonus damage
>Keeps full access to lower rank spell slots instead of having the limited studious spells
>Existing subclasses removed, some of their features reworked into class feats
>Can choose any spellcasting tradition, and either INT or CHA as their spellcasting attribute

>>96928188
Its still two actions though? Force Open+Stand vs Escape+Stand. The big difference is Only the Worthy calling specifically for Force Open, so its only Athletics, which as you point out can fuck over a ton of people.

I had a player use it a few times in a PWL game I ran, and it was pretty funny. Also note it doesnt have to be a weapon, it can be any Ikon you can Release (my player used their buckler)

>>96928456
I feel like at that point, you might as well just make it a separate class. A martial Witch analogue to Magus's Wizard and Bloodrager's Sorcerer. Can probably even stuff in the Gunwitch idea in such.
The Witch Warrior 3pp is a pretty underrated piece of homebrew.
https://www.pathfinderinfinite.com/en/product/395921/class-archetypes-witch-warriors

>>96927846
Pretty much, with some additional options by Divine Mysteries and Battlecry. The biggest issue when Elementalist first launched was that it was a lesser Primal list, removing all forms of healing out of it for raw blasting. So neither Arcane or Primal casters wanted it. With the newer spells, you get the benefits of Primal spells with healing, so full Arcane casters like Wizard can benefit from the spell list swap, it is a genuine sidegrade now. While Primal casters only lose out on Heal as a spell, which isn't the worst trade. Wood School Wizards basically get Runic Weapon as a focus spell which is INCREDIBLE early game value. And the metamagics it provide are not bad, honestly. I can see myself using Burning Spell or Dousing Spell.
Sure, it is far from the strongest archetype, and I would suggest letting an Elementalist pivot into Geomancer for free given how much it feels like they need each other. And I still say this shouldn't be locked to Arcane/Primal casters but all that want elemental spells over Occult/Divine lists. But I would not knock it too much as a class archetype that can help pivot some subclasses into stronger ideas.