Thread 96930738

Is there a single officially published DND/PF world where the main church ISN'T a extremely corrupt bad guy?

You've made this thread before you attention seeking faggot.

>>96930738 (OP)
The church as an earthly institution is insanely corrupt. Individual christian parishes are fine but the roman catholic church is basically evil

Because trpgs are traditionally enjoyed by incel manchildren who tend to be atheistic cringe lords

>>96930823
/thread

OP the retarded nogames fag talks about things that he has no understanding of the thread.

>>96930738 (OP)
Can you name a single one that actually has an evil church?

>>96930738 (OP)
Christianity lost, get over it

>>96931131
It hasn't even lost. People are just allowed to make fun of it now, and Christians just have to console themselves with the centuries of global hegemony it has enjoyed

>>96930738 (OP)
The whole premise of your question is flawed. It assumes that settings tend to have a "main" church, despite the fact that there is a legitimate pantheon of deities, some of which are extremely popular in specific regions, and some of which are more widespread and more populous in following, but without as strong of a foothold anywhere.

>>96930738 (OP)
Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk both have many good aligned churches. What are you even complaining about?

>all these retards taking the bait
This is gonna hit bump limit, huh.

>>96931131
Wrong, there are plenty of Christians in brown and black countries.

>>96930738 (OP)
Off topic but I never understood how, in a world where the is an ACTUAL pantheon of deities, people aren't all at least level 1 clerics.
Like, why the fuck would you NOT?

>>96931192
>umm actually it isn't a main church since people on the other side of the world that the party will never interact with don't follow it

>>96930738 (OP)
Name fifty where they are, OP

>>96931091
Rise of the Wicked, PF1e where you are minions and worshippers of Asmodeus.

Prey for Death, PF2e where you're worshippers of the God of Assassins, assassinating people - in particular, a good deity.

>>96930738 (OP)
You're an idiot.

>>96933876
Easy. Because that takes dedication and effort, and above all, actual faith. No faith=no power. Clerics aren't just people who say, "oh, I worship so and so, watch me cast miracles!'. No, clerics are the actual people who pray, fast, study the holy texts, practice the deity's teachings, work towards their deity's goals, and actually enact change in the name of their deity.

You're too used to playing games where the GM says "eh, who cares" and lets you get away with stupid shit like a cleric murderhoboing for the sake of treasure and shit like that. A good GM smacks you for playing a cleric just to get spells and magic. Those types of clerics are the religious version of the 'white room theorycraft wizard' that always knows every spell and can do anything.

>>96934250
>No, clerics are the actual people who pray, fast, study the holy texts, practice the deity's teachings
No I'm saying, why wouldn't you act like this?
Why would you, if a truly higher power/divine being exists, not submit to them no homo?

>>96933876
In such settings, why do most people worship the uppity pretender gods instead of the actual creator/overgod?

>>96934422
If you work8-10 hours a day, how do you feel about the job? Now work 16-18 hours a day, and you have to do the job every minute of that day outside of necessities. It's not easy. In fact, it can downright fucking suck. But if you do that, really do that, you can be a cleric. Because that's what clerics do. It's not a lay worship matter - most anyone is a lay worshipper. You dedicate your entire life, every waking moment that isn't on the shitter (and sometimes even then, for some Gods) devoted to that deity's ideals, promoting them and living by them. That shit isn't fucking easy.

The other thing is that when you live like that, in a world with actual aware deities, THEY WATCH YOU. You have power they give you. You think that comes free with worship? Oh no, you EARN that power. and if you misuse it? If you fuck up and break your deiy's laws or obey laws if the deity is against them? They FUCK YOU UP. You don't just lose your power, you get PUNISHED. And you don't get tro play off ignorant or stupid, because they KNOW you. You serve them, they watch you.

Lay worshipers can get a pass. A cleric? No passes. You fail, there are consequences.

>>96934422
Read the Elric Series. Or Time's Master Trilogy. Or Witch World. Or Gods of Tarot.

Having deities interfere with your world sucks, and sometimes you really don't want to give them more than lip service, because they might notice you, and that's never a good thing.

>>96934422
>No I'm saying, why wouldn't you act like this?
In addition to the point about taking EXCEPTIONAL dedication to the point you literally can't run a society with a large fraction of it so devoted, the gods have some limits on ability to grant Cleric spells so there's a triage of fulfilling their interest involved and D&D Clerics must properly worship only one God so all the extremely religious people who act according to smite-avoidance principles or task-specific worship don't qualify.

You'd need something like a pantheon organizing their portfolios by profession and running their churches as guilds to get any appreciable chance at this, which does sound like a neat campaign setting idea but has a whole lot of weird downstream consequences. For example, near-zero social mobility because the magic expected for a job is locked to its associated deity, and if there's a worship-to-power mechanism the most common professions make their deity the most capable and thus become the most blessed.

>>96934127
Literally every DND X50

>>96935346
Now name them individually, tourist, with specific exampls

>>96931423
I'm pretty sure these threads pop up so a small group of posters can argue between themselves or something. They all wind up looking very similar.

>>96934147
>Rise of the Wicked, PF1e where you are minions and worshippers of Asmodeus.
So, it's not a corrupt Church, but literal demon wroship. Doesn't count.

>Prey for Death, PF2e where you're worshippers of the God of Assassins, assassinating people - in particular, a good deity.
A literal evil God is not an example of a corrupt church. The God of Assassins isn't a deity anyone would expect to be good, but is actually secretly evil and is doing immoral things behind the scenes while putting forth a facade of virtuous goodness.

Did you even understand the question?

>>96936225
>So, it's not a corrupt Church, but literal demon wroship. Doesn't count.
Devil. And it's not a world, the main church in the adventure is still good, the PCs are just evil cultists (or working for one).

>>96934422
Because it takes a huge amount of effort and dedication. It's like getting yourself into Olympic shape, you need to center your life entirely around your devotion to your deity.
And that shit is difficult. Like can you earnestly do your day job, and really dedicate all you are to the company? Taking overtime to make sure that everything's in place? Focus on climbing the ranks?
Of course not, most people can't do that.

>>96936749
It's not just that. It doesn't really matter how devoted you are, the god decides who will become a cleric. The devotion just makes it more likely for the god to notice you, but there are some deities that would turn someone completely random into a cleric for shit and giggles.

>>96930738 (OP)
Literally what are you talking about? There's never BEEN an official setting where the most popular human-worshipped gods aren't Good or at least on the more benevolent scale of Neutral.
>Greyhawk: Saint Cuthbert, Rao, Pelor
>Forgotten Realms: Bahamut, Lathander
>Dragonlance: Paladine
>Ravenloft: The Morninglord, Ezra, Hala
>Eberron: The Silver Flame, the Sovereign Host

Are there corrupt or selfish-leaning Neutral ones? Sure, Pholtus exists. But JRPG style "evil masquerading as good" churches have never been a thing in D&D due to the age-old traditions of "priests need to be close to their god in alignment or lose all their power" mechanics.

>>96937130
>JRPG style "evil masquerading as good" churches have never been a thing in D&D due to the age-old traditions of "priests need to be close to their god in alignment or lose all their power" mechanics.
You've mentioned Eberron, so I feel I need to point out that's a thing in there. There's the Path of Inspiration, which is a scam, and various corrupt members of the CotSF (High Cardinal Krozen, #2 in the church's ranks after the Lolipope, is LE in a LG church) as the most glaring examples.

>>96930770
Cultist hands wrote this post

>>96937355
https://keith-baker.com/dm-krozen-and-zerasha/
Krozen is LE because of being ruthless in his pursuit of Thrane's welfare, not because of being corrupt.

>>96936622
But you do grasp that "corrupt church" is not applicable for churches explicitly dedicated to devil worship and evil assassin Gods, correct?

>>96937754
Uhhhhh what if that's just a front for infiltrating evil groups and disbanding them from the inside...?

>>96938488
Through assassination? That's still not corrupt. That's just business as usual and muscling out competition.

>>96930823
(You) are on the traditional games board of 4chan, complaining about incel manchildren and cringe lords

let that sink in for a moment. Consider what this says about (you)

>>96930738 (OP)
Name a major religion in real life that isn't extremely corrupt and whose leadership isn't extremely hypocritical first.

>>96938632
My local protestant church of course, real Christianity had never been tried in any other churches.

>>96933876
>level 1 clerics
meanwhile the magic user gets to cast his floating disc or magic missile

>>96937689
The actual books outright call him corrupt, though it's ambiguous to the extent of his evil, as usual with Eberron.

>>96937754
Yep, I was just pointing out Way of the Wicked wouldn't be an example of world where the main church is corrupt even if we were assuming OP's a retard and meant any evil faith as Asmodeus isn't in any way, shape or form "a main church".

>>96930738 (OP)
Most DnD settings as well as Pathfinder´s Golarion have a whole bunch of different churches dedicated to different gods, with some of them being good and some evil, with the evil ones usually being fairly openly so and with the good ones being actually good.

>>96934147
Do you think Asmodeus is the main deity of Golarion, and if you do, why do you think that?

>>96935346
Be more specific. WHat do you consider the main church of Forgotten Realms? Why is it that one and not one of the other ones? WHat about Dragonlance?

>>96938488
A corrupt evil church that is actually secretly good? Now that´d be a subversion.

>>96930738 (OP)
...Nearly all of them?
PF and most DnD settings have a pantheon of gods that includes good and evil ones. And while there's usually some evil nation that primarily worships an evil god (like PF having Cheliax, where the state religion is the church of Asmodeus, i.e. Satan), in most places the main religion is one of the good gods, whose church is generally unambiguously good guys. At most you might have some individuals that get over-zealous about their gods' doctrine, or there might be some conflict with the church's doctrine and some other group of good guys, but overall the worshipers of the good gods are good people with good intentions.

>>96939507
In Christianity it is literally impossible to have a evil God.

>>96942460
Okay, and how is that relevant to a TTRPG in any way?

>>96931091
If you're willing to bring the standard down to just having an evil church, then basically of them? Because there's evil gods who have churches. FR has Bane, Cyric, Talos. Greyhawk has Hextor and Iuz. Dragonlance has Takhisis. Those're just off the top of my head. There's lots more.

Dark Sun, Planescape, Ravenloft, and Birthright don't, but I think they don't have churches at all.

>>96937130
>But JRPG style "evil masquerading as good" churches have never been a thing in D&D due to the age-old traditions of "priests need to be close to their god in alignment or lose all their power" mechanics.

Asmodeus apparently does that shit in FR.

>>96938588
To thine own self be true, anon.
Him being on 4chan does not take any truth away from his assertion.

>>96931423
Damn, you're so cool bro.

>>96930738 (OP)
By RAW? All of them. If the good-aligned churched are evil in the games you play in, that's your DM's fault.

>>96942740
A church that serves an evil god is not corrupt, by definition. They are serving the will of their God, who is evil. Corrupt doesn't mean "evil", it means dishonest, deceptive, misleading. If you show up to Evil Church and the church is performing acts of evil, that doesn't mean the Church is corrupt.

>>96945141
>it means dishonest, deceptive, misleading.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that evil clerics do behave in that way to advance their personal agendas at all levels of power within those power structures.

>If you show up to Evil Church and the church is performing acts of evil, that doesn't mean the Church is corrupt.

I think that if Ambitious Acolyte A bribes someone to sabotage the ritual of Acolyte B so that Acolyte B cannot advance and Acolyte A is the one who advances to the next rank that represents corruption.

>>96930738 (OP)
I mean a significant amount of Christians would also claim the same is true irl so it shouldn't be surprising.

>>96933876
>1
Because the dirtiest in that world aren't God they're just very powerful beings, and worshipping something for simply being more powerful than is kind of cuck behavior.

>>96945427
None of this is to say that churches cannot be corrupt or that it's not possible for an evil church to have underhanded backstabbing and manipulative scheming.

However, OP specifically implied that EVERY officially published D&D and PF setting features 1) a "main church", and 2) that "main church" is extremely corrupt and adversarial. So far, what people are bringing up are churches that worship evil entities or specifically exist for evil purposes. Not churches that are ostensibly good, but actually doing evil behind everyone's backs.

>>96945491
I mentioned Asmodeus in FR, and the reply chain >>96931091 started diverges from that specific premise to a lower bar.

>>96936188
Yeah this guy in particular >>96931075 is very predictable in being a whiny twat

>>96945765
Sounds like you are just butthurt for being called out as nogames tard.

>>96936225
Not that Anon but Prey for Death is actually about corruption within the church of Achaekek, I'm currently running the module for my group so I've read the entire thing. The PCs in the module are favored agents of the current leader of the church, who are set up and made out as traitors as part of a conspiracy by another high up member to oust the leader from their position and take it for herself
Also the deity that dies in the module is not good and also you don't kill him yourself, idk what that first guy is on about

You don't become a primary, continent spanning institution on purely good practice and intent anon, sorry you had to grow up some day.

>>96946857
Only took a few days, but I think that's a legitimate example of a corrupt church in PF's setting. Still a far cry from OP's claim of "main church that is an extremely corrupt bad guy" but we have one firm example of a corrupt church story, so far.

>>96946984
There's a pretty big gap between Realpolitic and "everyone up top is COMPREHENSIVE hypocrites actively sabotaging the ideals", you chuuni brat.

>>96930738 (OP)
Most of them? Unlike real life you can and do have benevolent organised religions in fantasy. Usually because the gods actually exist in those universes.

>>96930738 (OP)
Name the "main church" in FR or Eberron that's extremely corrupt.

>>96949481
Name them.

>>96949565
Name what? The none evil churches? Church of Torm. Of Lathander. Of Yondalla. Chuntea. Valkur. Here. 5 none evil major churches in Forgotten Realms.

>>96930738 (OP)
In my campaign, the church is a mostly benevolent organisation that does charity work, organises cultural and religious events, and helps the sick and the disenfranchised. Of course, they also provide spiritual guidance.

My players interact with them quite a lot. :)

>>96949614
Are those churches 1) the "main" church of the setting, and 2) corrupt? If not, you're a fucking retard.

>>96949663
There is no main church in the setting. Also, my post is about most of them NOT being corrupt or evil.

>>96949678
I owe you an apology, because this thread has made me irrationally frustrated and I failed to read your post correctly.

>>96949871
That's okay. We are in a troll thread so being on your guard is normal. OP obviously is some sort of /pol/ack baiter.

>>96949519
Literally all of them?

>>96933876
The eternal answer: depends on the setting.
Maybe it's too much effort for miniscule reward for the average joe.
Maybe minor blessings are so subtle people can't tell if their devotion does anything.
Maybe the Gods don't want every fucking joe schmoe off the street to be their cleric.
Maybe devotion is just a prerequisite and doesn't guarantee clerichood.
Maybe every God can only have a limited number of clerics so so why would most bother.

>>96937130
>But JRPG style "evil masquerading as good" churches
That trope is also really fucking overblown, usually it'll turn out that one archbishop and his entourage are le evil and the Church as a whole is mostly fine and filled with good people who're misguided or manipulated.

>>96957967
The Pope is evil in basically every DND.

>>96964574
Do you have a single example of this?

This thread is so stupid. It's a bunch of atheists who hate the church going "How dare you say we hate the church! Source?!"

Any proof shown is anecdotal. Search your heart and you know it is true, The church has lost favor in western culture in general and never had favor in Japan. Duh obviously it's going to be represented in media.

>>96930738 (OP)
Leaving aside the fact that you are vastly overblowing the phenomenon as people have already stated, a factor is simply that in most DND campaigns you are supposed to be the good guy going around fixing things, and "good organisation is being corrupted" is like in the absolute top of classic storytelling tropes regarding saving the world/kingdom/city. So of fucking course it's going to appear.

>>96969642
I know that you're just a shitty larper or a bot but even so, cuckstianity getting just desserts never ceases to be funny.

>>96955840
Try literally none of them, friendo.

>>96957967
I can't here to post this. Is a "spot the traitor" plot usually.

>>96969642
>a bloo bloo bloo
>stop making fun of my made up bullshit that was used to repress people for ages
>don't you wuv jeebus?

>christfags so addicted to being outraged that they just make shit up to be outraged over
Why are they like this?

>>96970276
Powerful daddy issues and mental retardation.

>>96931437
Oh well if browns believe it then it must be true :^)

>>96970288
Maybe if the Browns were better Christians they'd win a single god damn game.
>oh but there defense has been great!
Defense don't score touchdowns.

>>96964574
Name three popes in DND.

>>96930738 (OP)
I'm the opposite of OP here, I want to know what are the officially published DND/PF world where the main church is a extremely corrupt bad guy.

>>96930738 (OP)
its OSR but try Lion and Dragon.

I use the pope as an icon in my 13th age game. The pope is a hobbit.

>>96970433
final fantasy tactics ( and crimson shroud )

>>96970588
that's not an officially published DND/PF world... unless there's a crossover I'm not aware right now.

>>96970392
>Name three popes in DND.
Jaela Daran (AKA the Lolipope), Lavira Tagor, Melysse Miron (that one actually was evil, though only self-proclaimed).
Does it count if they are from the same setting (Eberron), consecutive leaders of the same religion (Church of the Silver Flame) and not actually titled the Pope (Keeper of the Flame), even if they serve basically the same role? (For bonus points, Melysse was called Anti-Keeper, in the reference of the various antipopes)

>>96970926
Pope is a position unique to Catholocism, by the way. Other religions, including fantasy ones, have spiritual leads or similar positions, but not popes. Good answers otherwise, though.

>>96970926
>>96971069

Thrane aside, the Church of the Silver Flame is not even the majority religion in Khorvaire. That would be the Sovereign Host (or, if we really want to be specific, the Pyrinean Creed, the mainstream denomination of Sovereign worship).

>>96972452
Indeed, though SH is rather decentralized and doesn't have any widely aknowledged religious leader beyond local level. CotSF is the second most popular, but certainly the most organized (though they also have a bunch of subsects with differing beliefs).