How come the northern humans didn't even try to rebuild Arnor?

Because the post-Angmar Eriador is a post-apocalyptic hellscape full of orcs, wraiths and other terrors, where elves and dunedain can just try to contain the chaos. In the book Aragon talks about how people of Bree would freak the fuck out if they knew what lurks in the wilderness just a day's journey from safety of their town.

>>211394686 (OP)
Their population was cut down to like the hundreds

>>211394686 (OP)
Tolkien ripped off Warcraft.

>>211396167
Unpopular opinion, but Warcraft orcs are way better and more interesting than Tolkien orcs.

>>211396129
They don't get married until they're in their 80's, what did they expect?

>>211396167
I do appreciate that the one time Tolkien's gods tried to intervene directly to stop evil in Middle-Earth they basically hit the planet so hard it broke. It's a nice justification for their non-intervention in the future.

>>211396182
Explain

>>211396182
delusional, if you said 40k I could sort of agree, but Warcraft? That's a joke.

>>211396167
>Read Hobbit and LotR books
>love it and stare at the maps admiringly
>pick up Silmarillion
>absolute confusion when looking at the map of old Middle Earth
Heh.

>>211396167
Did half of the continent sink into the ocean or was the West at a lower elevation the the East?

>>211396302
sunk for fucking around too much

>>211396182
Conceptually they're good, if you only consider Warcraft III and World of Warcraft Classic. They've been getting raped and gaped since around 2010 though.

>>211394686 (OP)
Every time I see this, I just see Agent Smith in a wig and I can't take it seriously.

>>211396203
Based.

>>211396302
It literally exploded from divine powers making a mess fighting actual Satan. Real supernatural shit.

>>211396182
orcs are the worst part of warcraft.

>>211396331
wc3 was when the gaping began. metzen's noble savage fetish ruined them forever.

>>211396459
They were generic as fuck before Warcraft III. It's literally the only thing that makes them unique.

>>211394686 (OP)
Arnor split into North Arnor (ruled by Witch-King-Sung) and then South Arnor rapidly economically developed, but their birth rates collapsed.

>>211394798
I don't think there's that many orcs in Eriador. There are wargs, shitloads of trolls just wandering around (How are trolls born? Why are there so many trolls in the ettenmoors?) and there are far, far too many ghosts.

>>211396182
Not really, because there are enough other fantasy (and sci fi) races that are very similar to warcraft orcs, whereas things like Tolkien orcs are quite rare, being a sort of personification of the dehumanising, authoritarian and oppressively hierarchical effects of industrialisation.

>>211396302
Sinkholes

>>211396475
unique? they lost what makes them unique. they're just like all the other races. they want a home and they only use war to achieve peace. that's not what orcs are. they're supposed to be an irrepressibly bellicose horde. since wc3 they're just green humans with worse technology, led by an embarrassingly on-the-nose jesus/moses figure.

>>211396182
It's not really fair because Warcraft is high fantasy so the orcs are allowed to do way cooler things

>>211396548
>they lost what makes them unique

Bro, you have completely lost the plot on what orcs are culturally. They're evil fucking barbarians. That's what Warcraft I and II orcs were. They were APEX generic.

>>211396203
Warhammer (fantasy and 40k) greenskins > Tolkien orcs > Warcraft orcs

>>211394686 (OP)
>rebuild Arnor
you mean notAtlantis that sunk?

>>211394798
I see what you're saying, but the amount of orcs and shit around couldn't have been hellscape level. The wraiths were only after them because of the ring, and they run into ghosts once? Sure they had some trouble getting to Rivendell, but it wasn't fight your way through the horde tier. By the way you frame it, the fellowship should have been spying orcs waiting in ambush every 5 miles.

>>211396182
You have to a faggot to believe that. Warcraft has the worst lore and the worst orcs in fantasy history, particularly after WC2.

>>211394686 (OP)
Arnor is swarmed and twisted by various foul magics and hostile shit liek ghosts, wraiths and other spawns. One thing of the "evil magic" in Tolkien works is how it twists everything around with orc being a twisted broken elves being a prime example. If you really want wh40k reference like other do ehre with Wow, it's like magical catahan where you build your village and next day some murderous shit grows nearby or you get murdered by wraiths and other freaks of nature

to go further, whole beleriand that got sunk got corrupted in similar way. Gods not only sunk majority of the land ebcause of they colossal pwoers. They also did so because corruption would take uncounted ages to heal and surviving people were simply too weak to fetch for themselves there. Land was full of ruins where various monsters took home. Capital cities swarmed by vengeful spirits. Imagine Middle-earth when they finally invent submarines, knowing about elves from some myth, and then they discover the old beleriand and get killed solaris style but udnerwater by shits that dwelled there for ages

if you want more cosmic horror shit, when gandalf fought balrog, they both fell into some sorts of subterrtan tunnel depth within the earth, way deeper than any dwarf even reached. And gandalf freaked out. There's an entire unexplored plot of the old ones living deep udner the earth, with shits just as old as valars. I don't rememebr if Eu made them or there's a comis force that got there when he was creating the world. I beliee there were named "nameless" ones

>>211396759
can you qualify your statements
i think i might agree with you but i'm having a hard time separating the various eras of wc orcs from how exponentially bad it got in wow

>>211396302
It was destroyed. Exactly what that entails isn't clear, the War of Wrath is a decades long conflict that got a few pages of very brief description. It's not even clear whether the Valar took part themselves.

>>211396182
probably in the early years, but later Blizzard turned them into a bunch of dindus and the Horde is ruled by a cuck council now

>>211394686 (OP)
The Witch-King spend 600 years depopulation the region of anything that could rebuild it. He also left behind enough damage that nobody really could rebuild.

The real plothole is how the Dunedain didn't take advantage of the 77 years peace after the battle of five armies to rebuild the kingdom. Most of the northern orcs got annihilated during that battle, plus Dale and Erebor regained their footing. It was the best time possible to rebuild and somehow the dunedains got reduced to 30 fighting age dudes by lotr.

>>211396484
>>211394686 (OP)
Witch-realm of Angmar*

Imagine trying to to kill a witch king that can't die by male hands when your entire army is men lmao.

>>211396837
>I don't rememebr if Eu made them or there's a comis force that got there when he was creating the world. I beliee there were named "nameless" ones

One of the reasons Elrond tells everyone to fuck off about The One Ring is that someone says throw it in the ocean and you have shit like The Watcher in the ocean.
I mean real giant monster hours down there directly stated.
If any of them got the ring they would be impossibly strong.

>i don't remember if Eru made them
no they always existed, which is a bit of a paradox.
Ungoliant being one of them.
They had no shape though, they just existed in the void in a spiritual sense.
It seems when Eru made the material world though, these beings happened to be in the same space and therefore were given physical shape or manifested physical shape themselves to experience the physical.

>>211396837
>I beliee there were named "nameless" ones
Didn't Tolkien imply the Watcher was one of them?

>>211397543
>>211397563
yep i remember reading some, sadly Tolkien didn't explore it further or write about it so we'll never know what nameless ones really were outside "scary shit don't ask about them or knowledge will ruin your day". Maybe Tolien also didnt want to dilute the story by introduing some horror tier enemies. With forgotten stories we also get a note of some evil human tribes worshipping gods older than valars in secret shrines. I remember reading about it and it felt like just some Tolkienized voodoo tribes
Also watcher was never directly stated to be one, just to be some sort of foul beast more slimy than a fish. It was the writhing mass of tentacless while TV version had clear head

>>211397419
Yeah, why didn't those 100-odd hunter dudes rebuild a kingdom from zero in 70 years, what a plothole

What's the lore on the lands of the north? Why haven't we seen anyone from there?
I read that there were supposed to be viking-type characters living there but I'm not sure if it's canon.

>>211397657
read the damn book. They talk about Anor's history a lot before and around Elrond's council

>>211397652
by becoming the nobility and forcing bree peasants to be their serfs

>>211397657
pretty good map 2bh lad

>>211397616
there is honestly no telling.

You must remember that upon the awakening of ME untold god tier magic was upon Middle Earth and countless monsters spontaneously or genetically were modified to exist.

I do know Ungoliant always existed though, she was nothing and she just BECAME through sheer willpower.
The reason for this is explained that regardless if Eru did create Ungoliant. She still always existed because time/space did not exist at the time of her being.
It's speculated that she is one of the accessory spirits to Eru (necessary emotions/responses for world balancing) in her case gluttony.
These spirits follow the God of Concepts route. Which roughly translates to
>i am
>I think
>i thought
>I feel
>I dream
the concepts are not equal to god, but they are equal to god and become more complex as they go down.
Eventually the concepts are so complex they manifest literal entire personalities.
which is in line with Greek/Norse/Roman/most religions in general.
Ungoliant is just the concept of excess.

Can we take a moment to remember that while the three ages of Middle Earth were happening.
There were also fucking insane stories happening in all the other lands? Bruh there is an entire two major continents beyond just Middle Earth that had thousands of years of their own history, monsters, battles.

>>211397695
>There were also fucking insane stories happening in all the other lands?
no there weren't
>Bruh there is an entire two major continents beyond just Middle Earth that had thousands of years of their own history, monsters, battles.
no there isn't
it's just filler shit, Tolkien never meant to write anything about those places, so technically nothing's going on there and never has

>>211397904
meant for >>211397821

>>211397736
>there is honestly no telling.
True. Even if Ungoliant and others formed independently of Eru, things become muddled when they interact with Middle Earth. Anything they do on ME means they are some part of Eru's song, meaning Eru defines them. Eru always wins.

>>211396459
>wc3 was when the gaping began
I have been beating that drum for 20 fucking years. Mostly to real life friends that wonder when WoW turned stupid, it's like buddy the stupid was there day -1.

>>211397657
>Why haven't we seen anyone from there?
The witch king.
>>211397821
Let asia, africa and america get their own tolkiens.

>>211397821
too bad it's all under water now buddy
and the rest is just arabs

>>211397736
It was years since i touched the book so it's ncie to have some in-depth read on this. It's kinda hilarous that i never questioned who the hell she is and from where Melkor pulled her. As a kid when reading all this i was sure that Ungoliant is just one of the Melkor beasts that became too much for him to handle
also your explanation also helps greatly with udnerstanding who Bombadil is
>>211397821
because the major pwoers were in Beleriand/Middle-earth. it's kinda how you had Australia and Africa all along there yet major things were happening on in Asia and europe for most of the time and in America for small portion native empires

>>211397904
>NU UH
Dude the Númenóreans sailed to all reaches of the world, this is why Eru had to take the undying lands off the fucking planet lmao.

>>211396182
Fantasy made after the 1980s is slop, zero exceptions.

>>211397657
What counts as north to you?
Aragorn is called a "ranger of the North" because he's from northern Eriador, in former Arnor.
There's a race of humans called Northman, that includes cultures like Rohan (who moved south, so no longer living in the North) but the men of Dale are Northmen who stayed in the North and they're the viking types you've heard of.
On that map Forodwaith is shown, but it wasn't really given that exact shape by Tolkien I believe, and it's mostly a frozen shit hole with probably nothing there (like north Antarctica). But around Forochel there's basically inuit type people who don't do much but interacted a bit with ancient Arnor.

>>211397821
We're not forgetting that, it's not a real thing.
That map isn't by Tolkien, he didn't define those additional continents so of course he wasn't going to write events for them.

>>211398003
>also your explanation also helps greatly with udnerstanding who Bombadil is

Yeah you're getting it. Almost exactly the same thing. Everyone tries to claim Bombadil is Eru and that's just flatly wrong. He is another speculated concept and that's why he is incapable of being anything other than what he is.

It wasn't until the Valar specifically did the concepts become so defined that they had outright personalities that were independent they could have original thought.
Even that is debatable as Manwe is autistically unable to process what "evil" means because he has no evil in his concept. Which is why he is closest to Eru.

Ungoliant and Bombadil though are much simpler concepts and therefore really have no free will.
This is mostly shown in the idea that Melkor a much more complex concept shows signs of Ungoliant's original concept.

So if Ungoliant is to Melkor
Bombadil is to Manwe.
Which means there are others also, potentially thousands/millions.
God of Concepts has a quantifiable God for every single concept making the entirety of "the real god"

Tolkien wasn’t very good at world building

>>211398158
Better than you.

>>211398126
>On that map Forodwaith is shown
That's the one I'm talking about.
>In earlier versions of the legendarium, the Forodwaith were originally conceived as a mythical representation of the Vikings, while their land, i·Ponōrir, was the mythical representation of Scandinavia.[3]
That's what I was talking about but it seems like it was an earlier concept that Tolkien scrapped.

>>211394686 (OP)
yo elf bruh, got anymore cheesy lembas? got mad munchies from that long bottom leaf dude.
also how old is your daughter?

>>211396708
arnor and gondor were build after notAtlantis(numenor) was sunk

>>211398216
better than dogshit is still shit, anon

>>211398530
Not necessarily, no. Something amazing is also better than dogshit.

>>211397276
>ywn see Eärindel battle a dragon in his space-boat

>>211397657
A kino setting for The One Ring 2E tabletop role-playing game.

>>211396726
>fellowship should have been spying orcs waiting in ambush every 5 miles.
Avoiding that is why the fellowship was so small, and they still walked into ambush before reaching Moria (cut from the film)

>>211398030
LOTR|Hobbits an such had things made in 1970s fren.. Even had MUDS. 1978|LOTR, also Hobbit 1977. And one made by Gene Deitch too but that one is loosely based @_@; 1983 had a cancelled journey to rivendell, but 1982 had a game made by Beam Software

>>211394686 (OP)
Fuck that pic. Elrond had always housed Elendil's heirs even before the Fall of Arnor. Hell, the only reason why his line was even around was because Elrond was keeping Isuldur's wife and youngest son there while he was getting things straight in Gondor before making the move to Annuminas.

Isildur was on his way to Rivendell to talk with Elrond about the ring and what to do with it (having realized he wasn't strong enough to use it for good) when he was ambushed in the Gladden Fields and killed along with his other sons.

Elrond has always been there for his kin.

>>211396167
>eriador but bigger

>>211398158
if tolkein were shit at world building we wouldn't be talking about him decades later

>>211398158
If you mean that in the sense that he wasn't good at building a complete world, then true enough. His world was very much a part of him, so as he grew older and gained some new perspectives, he repeatedly went back to the beginning and started again. As a result, he didn't really finish anything outside of the work he was paid to finish (like LotR itself). Nonetheless, it's very intricate and thought out where such detail is present, with obvious bias toward the things Tolkien was personally interested in.

>>211397963
>Lands furthest to the North
>called Endor
BRAVO RONALD

>>211394798
Thinking about Middle Earth is wild. It's like tiny pockets of serenity, peace, and happiness complete surrounded by murderous nightmare evil. Step outside Rivendell or The Shire and you're immediately in danger. The entire trip to Isengard or Rohan something is trying to kill you. Maybe in the Gondor area during normal times they had enough patrols to keep the countryside safe

>>211397821
The LotR world was flat until the Numenoreans tried to get to Valinor then god made it round so they couldn't try again

>>211400966
it's not that bad, Shire is absically so peacefull that majority of naughty thigns is stuff of legends they never encounter. Shit starts with Bree where you really don't wanna go anywhere past settlement at night or even near ruins durning daylight. Then Again you have safehaven of Elrond aka Rivendell, where past the river it's again fully peacefull due to elves keeping everything safe. Arwena just like her grand maiar ancestor could detec intruders entering the forest
Things around the mountian went bad mostly beause dwarves of moira dig shit too far so there was none to keep the peace around. Even as dwarves, they kept surrounding areas clear outside grand mine to make sure traders will come isntead of getting butchered on the road
Then you have forests with Galardiel being even more hardcore than Arwena. Rohan before Isengard betrayal was also a pretty safe palce due to feudal lords system where each lord was keeping their rohirrims up and scouting his own area. Unlike movies, Gondor also ahd alrge presence keeping up peace in the south coastline. In the books Aragorn spend much time rallying people from there to aid the gondor siege

of course, you have shits like dark forest, mirkwood etc. But it's more like "be prepared and know your shit before entering" than being a deadly trap. As long as you folowwed estabilished routes before whole war for the ring you were safe. The only deadly forest is the old one near Saruman due to shades giving safe place for some beasts and then some ents and even normal trees going feral due to lack of tree keepers

>>211401234
this, before that the pillars holding the world had elven name like roots of the earth. And below these roots you hade things that should not be

>>211399636
Elrond's life on Middle Earth should have a mini series.

>>211401300
for real. Twin brother is the first king of numenor, grandfather was King of Gondolin... oh yeah, and his father was FUCKING EARENDIL. However, aside from the War of the Last Alliance, it wouldn't really be an action-heavy miniseries, unless they have some stuff in there about Elladan and Elrohir's efforts of orc-hunting after the rescue of Celebrian.

>>211401300
too bad, what you instead get is a miniseries where the oldest and most powerful non-godlike force left in middle earth acts like a sassy teenage girlboss and takes order from her own thousands of years younger son in law

I like tes orcs
they're just green guys with black vas that worship a rape god

>>211397821
blue wizards and shit man i love tolkiens world building a ck3 mod wants to fill the whole world out and they have done a good job so far that seems very faithful

>>211401652
molag bal is the rape god though, malacath is just the god of the forsaken

>>211401511
what a colossal shame, with so much tech avaible, we get worse wizuals than lotr. Instead of peak lore references with books that ooze content to adapt, we go braindead, talentless hacks that are angry at Tolkien because le religious white man who dedicated his whole life to build this fictional world created the most awesome piece of literature in modern times. So now they think they can produce something better from their literal fanfic just to spite him. What a shame that Tolkien's grandson is a braindead fucker too.What a sad legacy, if we only had Christopher for some 5 years more

>>211394686 (OP)
For the same reason that the dwarves who tried to reclaim Moria didn't succeed - the place is teeming with trolls, orcs, and other such creatures, vastly outnumbering them.

>>211399427
>>211397657
why isn't there a middle game like skyrim? god i would lose myself in that and never go outside ever

>>211396302
don't post that rootless kike you tranny

>>211398158
Morgoth is one of the best villains in fiction, but go on.

>>211402539
There's no will for that, to make accurate middle-earth game, you need a lot of effort. We got shadow of mordor for slashing audience, battle for middle earth for rts fans. Some other games like Final fantasy tier lotr game for ps2. I think the closest you can go is that lotr mmo but i don't know anything about it
Even if you look at hogwart legacy, the game is basically very combat oriented and all that magic coming from HP is nowhere to be found, jsut like movies focused more on action later.
also mdoern reality of making games isn't supportive for giant, ambitious projects

>>211402202
LoTR was always going to be whored out at some point by a descendant looking for quick cash. Can't be mad about it.

>>211397963
Why does the Mordor mountain range suddenly spring up?

>>211403353
You think an evil immortal dark lord with access to the most powerful dark magic can't conjure some defensive mountains for his evil realm?

>>211402539
>>211402657
Lord of the Rings Online is honestly pretty decent Middle-East exploration game. Just becomes a chore as a solo MMO.

>>211404538
I've played this. Very comfy game and it does scratch that itch but you have to really get into the quest lore to get any enjoyment out of it, otherwise it's a really boring game. MMOs just suck in general. Also, it suffers from modern MMO things like automatically learning every ability whenever you level up, making class trainers utterly useless.

>>211396302
Middle Earth in LOTR is Earth in a post-apocalyptic future with lower technology and "magic", the sinking of Beleriand was similar to a WW3 scenario with anti-matter bombs and such. The radiation created elves, orcs, dwarves, and hobits, all the magical folk really.

>>211397657
LOTR scholars, why didn't the fellowship just keep south and cross under the White Mountains instead of trying to cross over the Misty Mountains? Was Gondor really that fucked up?

>>211405931
They were worried of Saruman, his espionage network was very extensive and he got the people of Dunland in his pocket.

>>211396182
Dindu Orcs are gay and lame.

>>211407158
They're so stupid. If I had been there, things wouldn't have gone down that way.

>>211405931
i'm pretty sure they coast the western side of the misty mountains for a while, and as soon as they set up camp near Dunland a whole bunch of wargs/wolves attacks them at night. So they decide to go back north and traverse the pass
It's been a while since I read it though

>>211400966
I'm reading lotr after ~15 years and read the 2nd chapter of Two Towers where aragorn, legolas and gimli first meet eomer.
I am seething because gimli and legolas get immediately offended when eomer calls the 'lady of the golden wood' an elusive and dangerous witch, even though Galdriel and Celeborn are rohan's neighbors and in all those centuries not once did they extend a helping hand or at the very least reveal themselves as allies to any of the rohan kings. How did they expect rohan people to think otherwise??
It's like everyone in middle earth is an incel who stays in his room all day.
Elrond barely knew much about the shire before meeting bilbo (some rivendell noldo knew more).
The only reason Boromir managed to find Rivendell was because denethor was a lore nerd.
Elrond had 'kinda forgotten' Bombadil existed because he hadn't been that far out in ages.
Celeborn and Galadriel's knowledge about the fangorn forest was somewhat murky. They must've known about the Ents but had not come in direct contact with Treebeard.
Radagast had not heard about the Shire until Saruman ordered him to search for Gandalf.
No one knows what goes on in Moria despite it being at the heart of western middle-earth and could be spied on with some effort.
The only people who have a wide knowledge of the world are the Dunedain, Gandalf and unironically Denethor.

>>211408742
>It's like everyone in middle earth is an incel who stays in his room all day.
Almost like the world is postapocalyptic or something.

>>211408742
>unironically Denethor.
Denethor will never overcome Jackson's abysmal hacking of his character

>>211409278
It has been peaceful for a century. Bilbo had one major adventure and that was the highlight of all his decades. There should have been lots of travelers and trade. Shire is insulated, but there's no reason why the realms of men and Elves would never do anything but keep to themselves. And Dwarves were supposed to be wealthy due to the things they mined. How do they get wealth if not selling stuff to others?

>>211409624
>There should have been lots of travelers and trade.
There was peace during Bilbo's adventure because Sauron was still incognito. Trade, international communication, race relations, etc. were all worse during Frodo's time as Sauron had decades to purposefully fuck things up. The turning point was when Sauron got ousted from Dol Guldur and switched tactics in preparation for a full assault on the remaining peoples of ME.

Moria was an enormous underground kingdom full of Mithril. Where did it all go? Who got the Mithril? That stuff will make you invincible. A small shirt of it will make you very wealthy. No scavengers ever wanted to go in there and get some items? Where's the mithril blades?

>>211409624
>>211410190
It's still a bit fucked up though because it's one thing not being able to travel freely and another for possible allies to be that much estranged when the threat of Mordor was clearly culminating into full scale war.
If they hadn't found the Ring, the Council attendants would've never known what goes on in Dain's kingdom for instance.
Another example: even Gondor wasn't sure whether the rumors about Rohan paying tribute to mordor was true or not. You can't let such doubts fester on the eve of war.
When the company reaches Lorien, both Legolas and the Lorien scouts admit that they don't know much about the respective kingdoms of their kin besides past knowledge (at least Lorien and Rivendell were still communicating)
Makes me thing it's more than difficulty to communicate and it was also some morgothian curse lingering in middle-earth, which made everyone timid and distrustful of each other, and perhaps Sauron played on this weakness. In the case of the elves it might also be the curse of Mandos.

>>211409511
It's not the worst thing ever. The actor is good, the performance is great. They just needed to find a way to get more backstory in, more context of what Denethor was like at his peak. There's a tiny bit more of that in the extended version but it isn't enough.
I feel like Gimli got it almost as bad, maybe worse.