so which one was the bad guy?

>>211822242 (OP)
They both are bad and weren’t bad at the same time. Though it’s easy to view Hughs character as the bad one since he comes from a rich family and kind of buys his way into fame but his final trick is so good that you just can’t hate him for it.

>>211822242 (OP)
The only who killed several people (the wife agreed to the new knot, it went wrong and it’s on her)

>>211822242 (OP)
Let’s just say that the machine worked

>>211822288
I’ll grant you that hughs character can be perceived in a "tragic" sense and that he wasn’t actually all that bad, but I feel like that’s cope

bale was a real magician
jackman was a fraud, an actor, a whore

>>211822242 (OP)
It's like asking: Is Trump or Musk a bad guy.
Both were scam artists.

>>211822242 (OP)
The twin was, for ruining the movie with his dumbass reveal
The guy’s secret being a hidden twin, and that’s how he did the trick? Fine.
The reveal that he doesn’t just have a hidden twin but that the twins live the exact same life, swapping day by day? The idea that the twin who first fell in love with the woman is perfectly fine with his brother plowing her ever pay other night, raising the kid every other day, etc? Ridiculous
>

>>211823376
>actually filtered by nolan
Kek

>>211823437
>defending Christopher “I came here to stop you” Nolan
Explain to me why they had to live the same life. I get keeping the twin hidden, that’s fine, explain why they have to live the same life on alternate days and how that’s not completely retarded

>>211823472
No anon, please do not think I am defending Nolan. What I meant was that you were able to be filtered by nolan, you’re a normie

>>211823522
How is that being filtered? It’s a fine movie literally until the last few minutes where you get that retarded reveal. If you’re defending that plot point, you’re retarded

>>211823575
I can’t explain how you were filtered
It’s like asking someone with 60 iq to picture a rotating apple, you just can’t do it

>>211823624
You can’t explain it because you’re retarded, anon. I’m sorry you found out this way. It gets better.

>>211823673
Sure whatever helps you sleep

>>211823720
Good day Saar

>>211823376
Good point.
I also remember figuring out the twist quite early. The twin character is present throughout the movie but never shown from the front (for obvious reasons). As a viewer you quickly sense that something’s off with this guy, and little by little you realize it’s a disguised twin way before the reveal. To be fair to Nolan, it must not have been easy to film something like that without giving it away too soon.

I still think it's Nolan's best. Also casting Bowie as Tesla was a genius idea.

>>211823760
You can start using the P word all you like but you were ultimately still filtered by Nolan anon

>>211823376
>he never had a bro he shared pussy with
Not to mention they are twins, so really what difference does it make

>>211823773
Cain’s character also says multiple times that the only possible way he’s doing the trick is having an assistant who looks like him and since the audience never sees one, it’s not hard to guess a secret twin.

>>211823829
>if you dislike ridiculous twist you got le filtered
Keep posting maybe some day you'll make it into reality.

>>211823850
I don't remember this, but since Nolan wrote the script you're probably right.

>>211823829
You can’t keep saying that until you explain why it’s not retarded
The fact that you keep coming back here with no argument says it all really

>>211823870
>maybe some day you'll make it into reality
you're the one that needs to come back to reality anon

>>211823839
the point behind the reveal was that they couldn't live that double life successfully, his wife was never fooled by the twin so I doubt he was actually fucking her

>>211822242 (OP)
Wolverine

>>211823884
You're asking me to explain how something is NOT retarded to somebody that IS retarded, it just doesn't work. It's like you can describe the colour red 1000 different ways, but if Mary truly grew up in a black and white room, she's not going to know what the fuck you are talking about.

>>211823882
It’s right before Jackman goes to seek Tesla. He’s trying to figure out how Bale is doing the disappearing trick, they have dudes spy on Bale but can’t find any special contraption that makes it possible nor can they find a doppelgänger in his employ so Caine comes to the conclusion that he has one he keeps hidden because there’s physically no other way to do the trick, hence Jackman having to find someone who can basically break do it himself

>>211823919
>he keeps doubling down to hide the fact that he has no explanation for why the plot point isn’t stupid
Anon this is sad

>>211822242 (OP)
i can just imagine how happy nolan must have been when he got to the cloning machine in the book. it's so typical of him to pull some magical fantasy device out of his ass to create a plot twist and probably the whole reason he made the movie was just to slam that in the audience's face.

>>211823924
So is it two different ways to do the same trick in the end? Or is it actually clones?

>>211823376
the one brother didnt fuck the other brother's wife, he couldn't stand her and didnt bother to hide it. that's why he was banging scarlett johansson and the wife was pissed. also, the brother thing is foreshadowed heavily throughout the film, notably when angier and borden go see the old asian magician and borden marvels at his dedication to the act while angier scoffs at the idea. so it's not like it was totally out of left field

>>211823950
I don’t know what you mean. They both had different ways to do the same trick, yes. Jackman had clones, Bale had the secret twin.

>>211823939
Okay, I'll try make this really simple for you. Why don't you try and distil into one short sentence what you're overarching problem is, and if you can do that I'll try and explain how you got filtered

>>211823919
you know there's multiple people here, right? explain it to the rest of us. it should be easy enough if you have actually have a point. so what if that one guy doesn't get it? the rest of us will. go on, share with the class.

>>211823976
So you do think it was clones then? Because that suggests that Caine was a retard who didn't know what he was talking about and Bale was a soon to be forgotten relic of the past. I think it's more likely that Jackson's double was just used the same way Bale's twin was used. He performed the exact same trick the same way, just dressed it up more elaborately as he had been known to do the whole movie.

>>211823983
My problem is that the two brothers live the same life on alternate days, first off when did they decide to do this, they were keeping him hidden when he was a kid too or something, and second why was this necessary instead of just having twin 2 lead a full secret life as the disguised man which wood be far simpler.
There. I could elaborate but that’s it in a sentence. You won’t have a good counter for that, calling it now.

>>211824025
What do you mean “I think it was clones”? We know it’s clones. We see it.

"Evil" twin who tied more dangerous knot and didn't have balls to admit it. Although Jackman shooting to kill was literally attempted murder.

>>211824056
>distil into one short sentence
Yeah, you're a retard.

>>211824083
Oh I was right you didn’t have a counter
One short sentence would be “there is no logical reason to live their lives that particular way” but that’s vague. It’s almost like complicated ideas can’t a,ways be distilled into a few words.

>>211824083
Distill into one short sentence why that plot point works, anon

>>211824025
there are three angier corpses at the end, so the machine must work.
>borden watches angier drown, gets arrested
>cutter IDs the body at the morgue then visits "lord caldlow" to beg him to destroy the machine
>sees caldlow is angier and tells him "how are you still alive? i saw you on a slab for christ's sake"
>cutter visits borden in jail, borden reveals fallon is his twin and they hatch their plan
>borden/fallon follows angier to his storage facility while the other brother is hanged
>borden/fallon shoots angier and leaves
>final show has the camera pull back on angier dying on the floor and we see another angier floating in a tank
>three dead angiers: one in the morgue, one in the tank, one dying on the floor of a gunshot wound
all of this is after the diary reveals and none of it is being told by one character to another, so we have three angiers presened directly to the audience. the machine has to work.

>>211824124
The story is about magicians committing to their tricks, Bale's character(s) commit their entire lives to theirs.

>>211824144
>falling for the pledge

>>211824175
That didn’t address my point at all. They’re so committed that the twin lives a secret life, yes, all well and good. Why do they have to live one alternating life? Why not have twin 1 be the “main” guy and twin 2 be the assumed identity? They can take turns on stage maybe to be fair but swapping their private life day by day doesn’t make sense in fact, as we see, it opens them up to complications like the wife guessing their secret or the one twin falling in love with the assistant and “cheating” against the wishes of the other.

>>211824144
None of the "tank Angiers" are real. The only one that dies is the stunt double drunk who he kills offscreen since the partnership was failing anyway. Angier is Caldlow from the beginning, he's pulling the trick on them the whole time essentially and they kill him for it.

>>211824196
We see two dead Angiers in the same room at the same time in the last scene.

>>211824248
>the turn

>>211824106
>>211824124
not him, but both brothers were ambitious and prideful and both wanted the glory of living as Borden, the best magician in the world. Fallon would not be satisfied playing second fiddle to Borden when both of them are equally skilled magicians. Angier has this same issue with using his own double and Borden mocks him for it ("does he enjoy taking his bows under the stage?"). it's also not like the twins' life is portrayed as an easy or good thing - it fools people who arent close to them but Borden's wife always knows something is up, then it drives her to suicide when she figures it out. Borden explains at the asian magic show - the dedication to the double life is the real trick that allows the magic to work. He and his brother were basically a pair of OG andy kaufman's (sam hyde for you zoomies)

>>211824264
So if the one in the tank was the drunk asshole from earlier, who was in the morgue? He had yet another doppelgänger? And why invent the story about the machine at all, just to fuck with him? This is the dumbest take on the film I’ve ever seen

>>211824241
if you say the words "wax dummy" i am going to fuck your mom
>>211824196
>>211824264
>no refutation at all
next

>>211824290
>So if the one in the tank was the drunk asshole from earlier,
again, this is part of the trick anon
>who was in the morgue?
the drunk stunt double
>He had yet another doppelgänger?
no
>And why invent the story about the machine at all, just to fuck with him?
yes of course? this is one of central plots of the movie as a matter of fact

>>211824287
I guess I can get behind that to an extent although it still begs the question, at what point did these brothers commit to this, it must have been a damn early age no? I’m talking like early childhood. I forget did the film explain how there was no record of the twin at all? No family or childhood friends who ever saw the show and were like “oh remember this guy, he had a brother”.
Also in all those years nobody ever looked at the disguised twin and saw that he was identical?
I guess it works if they’re both completely egotistical assholes, just rather contrived to me

>>211824329
you have offered no refutation of why there are three angier corpses at the end. i can tell you are new to this debate, while i have successfully argued with generations of fa/tv/irgins that the machine works.

>>211824329
Wait so you’re saying they drown the drunk dude, he’s in the morgue, so who then was the guy in the tank we see at the end? They’re not gonna take him from the morgue and put him back in the tank, you fucking moron. Nor was that some dummy.
And how does the story about the machine fuck with him? Bale wanted to know how he did the trick, if Jackman had just revealed “oh I found a dude who looked like me”, would Bale have cared about their rivalry less or something? The story about the machine doesn’t change anything from Bale’s perspective other than being a more elaborate story.
Your reading of this film makes no sense

>>211824380
you fucking idiot

>>211822242 (OP)
Both, magic is Satanic in nature.

>>211824397
>so who then was the guy in the tank we see at the end
this is whoever Jackman hired next to do the trick with him, that's the entire point of the drunk french dude's character, to show that there are lookalikes that can be shaped up to be extremely convincing, remember they found the first dude in a random bar. They're tricking Bale the whole time to see if he does the trick the same way or not

>>211824349
it's a tad contrived but that's because it's written for a movie. i'm pretty sure Cutter (mycocaine's character) mentions at one point that Borden is some street rat with no past when he is comparing Borden and Angier's situations (angier is mega-rich from a noble family). streetkids in the 1800s were treated similar to vermin, if dickens is to be believed, so i wouldn't be shocked if Borden was a complete unknown on day 1, getting by solely on his talent.

>>211824429

>>211824460
So in your retarded reading he does literally find yet another doppelgänger despite it being established earlier how hard that was. It’s one thing to have a dude who looks the same on stage, the audience isn’t up close to him, but you’re saying he finds two dudes who look so similar that they appear identical to his longtime rival (and to us the audience since Jackman plays all three).
Also this completely undercuts the theme about obsession, both magicians were so obsessed with their craft that they went to extremes (full double lives and killing yourself to live on through your clone) for their trick. If Jackman was just fucking with Bale that theme is ruined.

>>211824460
the entire point of the movie is that no, not anyone can be a convincing double. Root keeps fucking up the prestige and gets bribed by Borden at one point which results in Angier breaking a leg. they study Borden's show to the minute detail, noting that the man who goes into the box is the same man who comes out of the box, since the same fingers are always missing. Angier has Tesla make him a clone machine because of this. I have no idea how you arrived at this conclusion

>>211822242 (OP)
they guy that murdered clones of himself and set up a man to hang for a crime he didn't commit

>>211824551
yeah, jackman was obviously the bad guy by the end of it. bale was no saint but jackman was homicidal from the start - not without reason. but the first thing he did was bring a gun to bale's show and try to kill him, that's a big escalation

>>211823134
>creates an army of clones and uses them as circus freaks then kills them
>not that bad

>>211823376
the swapping showed their dedication to their craft, they had to make sacrifices to hide the secret and create the magic
get filtered

>>211824439
They're stage performer you mong, not witches or necromancers.

>>211822242 (OP)
bale good
hugh bad

>>211823376
filtered

The movie tells you...
the final scene
the final dialogue