>I mean, really, how do we KNOW this young man is guilty?
>The murder weapon?
>Well I just happened to have a knife on my person exactly like the one used in this stabbing case
>According to the size of the victim's wound, it could have been made by this very knife in fact
>The witnesses?
>But the woman's eyesight isn't very good
>How could she see exactly who it was escaping that apartment?
>The killer could have been anyone
>Even someone in this very room
>And that elderly man who heard the noise?
>Why, he simply has prejudice like all of you, and who could blame him?
>Who could ever believe that the killer was, for example, oh I don't know...
>A middle-aged white architect, who committed this heinous crime
>Think of it, a plain, trustworthy looking white man
>Going down to a bad neighborhood at night
>Killing a minority for no reason other than his own amusement?
>Why, it would be the perfect crime, who would believe you?
>Don't you see your prejudice, everyone?
>It could have been absolutely anybody fleeing the apartment that night
>A criminal mastermind, perhaps
>Why, he could have even been in that very courtroom with us and we wouldn't even know it
>...watching that young man on trial, amused in knowing he was toying with his life
>Nobody would ever suspect him, I'm sure he would act very liberal in public of course
>And even if you KNEW he was a murderer you'd never be able to convict him
>Yes, a charismatic genius like that would easily be able to manipulate... an entire jury
>Providing of course, he could lock them all in a hot room with him
>Wearing them down over time, bending their feeble minds to his superior will and gaslighting them...
>Anyway, this kid is innocent, and we must all vote "not guilty"

extremely pozzed movie

>>212110113 (OP)
>>Anyway, this kid is innocent, and we must all vote "not guilty"
Proof you didn't watch the film. They say multiple times, even the judge at the start, that there should be NO reasonable doubt. That's not the same as innocent.

Reminder that this is just a shitty jewish ripoff of Rashomon

>>212110215
Really stretching the word reasonable

>>212110113 (OP)
12 Angry Men is a great film that demonstrates why Democracy will always fail. The most charismatic figures are not necessarily the ones with society's best interests at heart, despite them inevitably having the most sway over the body politic.

this movie is for fart sniffing redditors that want to show how very wise and correct they are for liking a movie that is 100% safe for them to like (they don't actually like it)

>>212110113 (OP)
You post the same thread every Saturday and Sunday. Did this movie hurt your feelings or something?

>>212110367
it hurt his society

Same poltard threads over and over.
No Ivan this doesn't make me want a fascist authoritarian justice system. No Ivan people aren't automatically guilty.
No Ivan legally defending yourself in court isn't a jewish trick.

>>212110113 (OP)
Imagine getting a fucking switch blade into a fucking court building nowadays.

>>212110519
You are wasting your time with literal third-worlders

>>212110269
not really. witnesses are unreliable and the prosecution claimed the knife was unique, which was verifiably false. the kid's public defender would've had to do absolutely nothing for there to be any inclination towards a guilty verdict at all.

>>212110277
killing people because they're suspected of crimes is not in society's best interest.

>>212110215
"reasonable" doubt is an essentially meaningless term in law. men get convicted where there's reasonable cause for doubt all the time

>>212110216
Not really

>>212110745
That's like saying the court system is meaningless because it depends on what mood your judge is in the day they pass sentence.

>>212110575
>pls don't call out my thread
>>212110745
No Ivan reasonable isn't meaningless. No Ivan this doesn't make me hate western legal systems.

>>212110745
it is perfectly reasonable to doubt eyewitness testimony.

>>212110688
Ya rly.
The point about the knife being unique is the only one that the prosecution was wrong on, everything else Fonda says is a load of drivel.

>That old man has a nice suit, that means he's an attention whore making things up! Ignore him!
>That woman has tiny little dimples on her face, that means she wears glasses, clearly she's blind as a bat!

>I used to live near a trolley car some years ago, that means I can accurately tell the speed of a different trolley in a different area at a different time

>If you disagree with me you're just a racist bigot y'know, you wouldn't want to be that would you?

It's a hamfisted propaganda film made by a subversive that is designed to undermine justice by making people come up with mental gymnastics to excuse obviously violent criminals from being prosecuted. Fonda being given a white suit to match his saintly demeanor is the cherry on top.

>>212110817
No it's not, although the ego of judges influencing their behavior in court is a legitimate issue. It's simply factual that reasonable doubt existing doesn't prevent a conviction, and what constitutes "reasonable doubt" differs form court room to court room and from case to case.
>>212110873
The Ukraine war has mindbroken you as badly as Jews have mindbroken /pol/. Please stop exposing me to your 100 IQ drivel

>>212111083
the prosecution making a provably false claim central to their case casts aspersions on everything else the prosecution asserts. OJ got away with murder because the LAPD got caught fumbling chain of custody for some evidence and then lying about it, which gave reason to question the source of all evidence against OJ.

>>212111084
He's a spaz who shows up in every 12 angry men thread to call everyone 'Ivan' for not agreeing with the film. It's odd considering it's a prime example of the kind of demoralization which at the time was being exported from the USSR.

The part that 12 angry men defenders never seem to get is that there was, in fact, a murder committed. Fonda may as well have tried to argue that no one got murdered and the father just fell over and impaled himself on the knife by mistake.

It's a great film and he was right about there not being proof beyond a reasonable doubt

>>212111084
>>212111241
>comrade pls do not recognize obvious influence campaign

>>212110759

>>212110519
He subverts the judicial process by introducing new evidence and making up defenses.

>>212111390
>the Russians are trying to get me to dislike a 68 year old film to undermine public confidence in western institutions
>on 4chan's /tv/ board
You're genuinely low IQ. I mean that a sincere observation and not as an insult

>>212111084
All you need to do to understand reasonable doubt is flip the concept around in your head a bit. Is there a realistic reason to question this? Should this be questioned? When questioned does it stand up?

>>212111531
Jurors can’t introduce evidence. Having an item that’s similar/identical to an evidence exhibit and showing it to jurors isn’t introducing evidence.

>>212111536
He's a jew and this is a quintessential jew film show to 7th graders to epic blow their minds if they're retarded. Calling it a bad movie like calling king david a faggot

>>212110113 (OP)
OP would have sided with the gun lobby in Runaway Jury.

>>212111531
>the prosecution introduces clothing as evidence
>the jurors must now be nude

>the prosecution introduces skin as evidence
>the jury must be skinned

>the prosecution introduces blood as evidence
>the jury must be exsanguinated

>>212111536
>if I say what we are doing then no one knows what we are doing
The low iq of russia on full display.
>>212111630
No Ivan your influence campaign doesn't make everyone else the jews.

>>212111241
>there was, in fact, a murder committed.
its better to have an unsolved murder case than locking up an innocent kid who had a shitty defense attorney.
the concept of "reasonable doubt" exists for a reason and the hurdles to lock a person away for life should be high. otherwise justice just becomes revenge

>>212111759
It’s weird to think capital punishment has been gone so long that some people might think it never happened.

>>212111630
I think he's probably just some sub 90 IQ Pole or a Facebook boomer that's wandered over here after fashioning themselves as Ukraine's number one online hero in the war against Russia to give meaning to their meaningless life. People seem to graft themselves to popular political movements to increase their sense of self worth as if their actions have any influence over the world (they don't)

>>212111759
A false conviction doesn't constitute revenge. Revenge would still need to be directed at the actual perpetrator to be revenge

>>212112062
People can tell your ESL.

>>212111837
No Ivan capital punishment still exists. Yes Ivan we know you made this thread to influence the view on western justice systems and not actually talk about the film.

>>212111759
>revenge
Wrong word. Not sure if there’s a more correct one though. Perverting justice into an excuse to hurt people would be the end result though

>>212112062
>I('m a newfag)
cool story bro. Its a pissed off insane jew.

>>212111629
Yes it is.
>>212111728
>the prosecution introduces a bullet with barrel markings matching the defendant's gun
>it is perfectly ok for a juror to bring a new bullet from a different gun with the same markings into deliberation
The reason why this is wrong is because both the defense and prosecution have a right to examine all the evidence that will be used in the trial. A juror introducing new evidence bypasses that.

>>212112111
>People can tell your ESL
>your
Stop trolling me

>>212112062
bringing up Ukraine out of the blue totally hides that you're russian lol good job

>>212112252
If you had bothered reading the full comment thread you would have seen the manic schizophrenic accusing people of being Russian.
Do better in the future

False equivalency ivan.
Yes Ivan we know you're trying to talk about real world legal procedures and not the film.

>>212112095
>Revenge would still need to be directed at the actual perpetrator to be revenge
lmao, what reality do you live in?
did you miss the 99% of cases in human history where revenge and reprisal violence was done to other people of the same group as the perceived perpetrator?

when the individual who did the crime or offense cant be identified, people or governments just pick someone similar or loosely related and go with "good enough", which was the case in the movie. the kid fir the bill of a murderer and the state +jurors were wiling to punish him, but actual justice should work better than this.

>>212112181
The point of >>212111837 was the movie isn’t about just locking the kid up for life, the death penalty would’ve been the result of a guilty verdict, which >>212111759 seemed to forget.

But you’re just OP replying to random posts with that style to distract from being correctly called out.

>>212112332
>lmao, what reality do you live in?
The reality where I'm aware of the definition of revenge.
>the action of hurting or harming someone in return for an injury or wrong suffered at their hands.

>>212112222
Wasted numbers. It's more likely to be a butthurt belter or a Nafo redditor than it is to be a random Jew

>>212112229
“Introducing evidence” is a legal procedure between attorneys and the judge. Jurors, by definition, always bring things from outside the case to deliberations. This doesn’t make those things evidence in the trial.

You have an ESL-tier understanding of this concept. Your hyper literal understanding of this concept would require the jury to not know language before the trial starts, and for the prosecution/defense/judge to govern the knowledge of the jury

>>212111083
>>212110113 (OP)
lol it’s proof of how genius his arguments were that to this day chuds can’t wrap their head around the concept of

>there is a single witness to the supposed scream heard
>the witness explicitly states that a train was going past at the time
>anyone with a brain realizes the witness is a crazy person who thinks they can hear a scream over a train

And it’s exactly how idiot liars reveal themselves in real life. I know what time it was because a train was passing! Oh… well then you only would have heard a train passing

>>212112474
>hyperliteralism

You’re ESL. Hyperliteralism is a mark of low intelligence as well.

>>212112307
Yes ivan i can read. Don't realize calling someone a pole immediately secures that you're russian too huh?
the russian shill has a list of deflections to use when recognized. you always out yourself, you can't help it because you follow a script. Ukraine jew schizo reddit commie tranny blah blah blah same empty headed garbage again and again.

>>212112529
>capitol J
>being this new in general
stop posting

>>212111192

OJ got off scott free because there were blacks on the jury. That's literally it.
>race based tribalism for me but not fore thee, cracka

>>212112597
Words have meaning, redditor. I know you needed to do your little diatribe on the nature of justice versus revenge to feel intelligent, but it's meaningless in the face of the actual definition of the word I used.

>>212112693
Okay ivan

>>212112634
I'm sorry but I've had to deal with Poles shitting up /pol/ for too long to turn a blind eye to them. You need to go back to r*ddit (where you belong)

>>212112556
I'd be deeply concerned if I found out a juror was bringing a knife into deliberations.

>f3 ivan
>12 results
seek help michael

>>212112590
I took a train to university daily for years. Even passing right next to you, you can easily hear screaming. Are you deaf or did you use your dilator in the wrong hole?

>>212112746
>I CAME HERE FROM THE NEWFAG BOARD
We know
>ITS NOT A JEW
jesus fucking christ alive

>>212112529
>Nafo
always outing yourself because russians are inherently incompetent people
>>212112680
Wrong as usual Ivan. Yes Ivan we know this is part of an ongoing influence campaign. No Ivan this isn't tv related.

>>212112754
>nothing has changed about the world, society, since the 40s

>>212112746
And the russian admits he's a poltard.
very high iq moves lol

>>212112800
>>212112795
I'm starting to think you're samefagging to bump your own thread

>>212112776
fuck you

>>212112780
we're not talking about some electric inner city onions metro to your woke university, it's a 1950s cargo train that goes right by the window and will be a mile long carrying nuclear warheads for bases in western europe.
the entire apartment complex will shake and you won't even be able to hear your own thoughts

>>212112863
>very high iq moves lol
Please don't talk to me about IQ until you've had your latent schizophrenia addressed by a professional

>>212112693
>it’s only revenge if you successfully hurt the person responsible

This is your argument. It’s not backed up by anything beyond your lack of capacity for nuanced thought. And here’s a refutation

What is it called if someone seeking revenge kills the wrong person and never finds out?

>>212112780
>dilator
Never a new insult, the same pol garbage over and over because you're a shill following a script.

>>212112869
>>>/pol/ and stay there you dumbass normoid

>>212112836
Even in the 40s I'd be a little concerned if a guy in the room with me casually whipped out a switch blade and started waving it around.

>>212112869
There is no way for you to be knowing that unique poster counter is nyet!

>>212112923
Yes, revenge by definition is directed at the individual perceived to have originally wronged the person carrying out the revenge.
Killing somebody else is just called killing the wrong person.

>>212110734
>Zaleucus is said to have enforced extremely strict laws, including death for even minor offenses. When questioned why minor and major crimes had the same penalty, he supposedly replied:
>If even small crimes are punished by death, people will not dare to commit greater ones.

>>212112634
Unbelievably easy to predict because you're a russian shill following a script.
>>212112693
>redditor
>>212112920
>schizophrenia

>>212112976
>in the 40s id still be a faggot

>>212112556
Jurors bring things, like clothes or water bottles for example, but the moment they use anything they bring as evidence it is jury misconduct because they cannot introduce new evidence. Have you never been on a jury?

>>212112987
No they took that away so retards like you could shit up the board

>>212112923
Retarded hypothetical

>>212113056
wtfs a jury?
hello from camaroon

>>212113046
>perceived
Key word there cyka

>>212112976
No you wouldn't Ivan. No Ivan someone carrying a pocket knife doesn't make me hate the justice system.

>>212113079
>breakfast moment
Low iq ESL

>>212113091
It's not a keyword in that statement at all.

>>212113141
They eata da brekfest

>>212113075
>nyet you!

>>212113141
>ivan tries calling other people ESL
you're transparent comrade. back to troll farm training for you

>>212113166
>ESL trying to debate English and the meaning of words

stick to your native language.

>>212113207
Thanks for confirming >>212112367

>>212113222
You weren't debating the meaning of perceived, you were claiming it constituted a "keyword" in that statement. The conclusion of that statement wouldn't differ if "perceived" were to be removed from the sentence, so it's not a keyword.

>>212113166
Key word != keyword

Don't let the derailing jew distract you from the fact that those movie is contrived, stupid, not good, and gay. The only reason it has any notoriety is because lazy cat mom have showed it to 4 generations of 13 year olds in public school "english" class.

>>212113254
the fuck you babbling about ivan?

>>212113308
Sorry, I think this thread has become 80 percent anons accusing eachother of being Russians. There's no saving it

>>212113296
See >>212113302.

In your definition of revenge, “perceived” is a key word, as it allows for revenge to be carried out against anyone for a wrong, whether the person is responsible or not, just as long as they are perceived to be.

You’ve defeated your own argument and cemented “revenge” as the proper descriptor of what a fast/loose “justice system” becomes.

>>212113360
Better than having an ESL try to refute 12 angry men with hyper literal interpretations of specific words.

>>212113445
>"refute" this glorified school special movie
nigga....

>>212113409
The perception of a wrongdoing is a necessary prerequisite for the motivation to enact revenge to exist. If the person enacting revenge didn't perceive a wrongdoing to have occurred, they would have no reason to take revenge in the first place.
How exactly would one take revenge on somebody that they didn't perceive to have wronged them?

>>212113445
>no comrade it is other anon that is doing the subversion
they're not sending their best ivans

>>212112746
>I'm sorry but I've had to deal with Poles shitting up /pol/ for too long to turn a blind eye to them

Imagine saying that in the age of VPN, especially when it comes to /pol/, where Russians/Chinese do their damnedest to foster racism and conflict. I don't care which shitty country you're from, your VPN won't save you from people exposing your drivel and posting style

>>212112918
I've been right next to passing cargo trains. Take the cum out of your ears, leave the house every now and then.

>>212113308
>>212111536
You already admitted your goal with these threads idiot. Reverse psychology isn't a good cover.

>>212113660
>where Russians/Chinese do their damnedest to foster racism and conflict
sorry bro, people just don't like infinity indians being imported into their countries. I don't really care about whatever russia or china is apparently doing

>>212113794
Yes comrade very concerned and not of try race agitation to cause conflict.

>>212113835
no seriously people actually just don't like when you import millions of indians into their country. unless the russians and chinese are doing that then I don't care what they're doing on the otherside of the world

You can't prove beyond reasonable doubt this Ivan is a real person.

>>212113941
>ivan tries to make us believe ivan isn't in every thread doing putin's bidding
nice try ivan, very slick

>>212110113 (OP)
If they didn't make it about race this could've been a good movie. But no we have to make everything about the poor innocent black and browns who are being persecuted by the evil white man just because they want to rape and murder and steal everything in sight.

>>212113612
You’re just illustrating how you can’t map a concept due to your sub80 iq. Incorrect perceptions are still perceptions.

>>212110734
better 10 innocent hang than one criminal walk free, because these day we all know most are arrested for far more than 10 crimes before they're finally locked up.

do they really not check jurors for switchblade knives?

>>212114099
The movie would be dumb and shitty regardless of public school teachers telling kids that the wop kid is actually a metaphor for niggers

>>212113700
Standing next to a railroad track isn’t the same as being in a building next to a train.

>>212114099
It wasn’t about race.

>>212113794

I see you've resorted to spamming gore/porn threads now that you've been discovered

>>212114240
When the mentally ill aren’t allowed to roam the streets, society is different.

>>212114205
Whether or not the perception is correct isn't relevant because then it wouldn't, by definition, be revenge, and the topic at hand is the definition of revenge.
"perception" isn't a keyword because if it were removed from the sentence, it would still be clearly implied, because as stated previously, and individual undertaking revenge would require the perception that he had been wronged.
You're simply having an argument in your head that doesn't reflect the one that's actually occurring, because you would realize you have feet to stand on if you engaged with the actual argument which all sprouted from your stubborn refusal to accept the definition of the word revenge. A definition you don't accept purely because you wouldn't be able to argue with my original statement if you did, not because you have any legitimate reason to disregard it

I liked the mustache juror and the glasses one

it was bullshit to compare defendant not knowing anything about the movie he just watched to the glasses guy missremembering one word of the title of the movie that played after the movie he saw 3 days ago

>>212114357
what?

>>212112590
When you hear sounds a lot you tune them out. Just ask any black person *BEEP*

I interned at the public defender's office for one summer and what I learned is that literally everybody in court is guilty

>>212114481
The definition of revenge does not state perceptions of wrongdoing need to be correct. Thus, seeking/enacting revenge on the wrong person is still revenge.

If you continue this “debate,” you’ll ge proving you aren’t just low iq and ESL, but also have a mindset that there is only right and wrong, a binary worldview, which is commonly associated with autism.

>>212114483
Like is explained every thread, in the 40s movie theaters just played [whatever] on repeat with news reels every 30-60 minutes. You bought a ticket, stayed as long and you wanted, then left.

>>212114787
Public defenders plea bargaining every case doesn’t mean every defendant is guilty.

>>212114799
>the action of hurting or harming someone in return for an injury or wrong suffered at their hands.
If person being harmed has not committed a wrongdoing, then per the definition of revenge, it cannot be revenge, as revenge requires
>harming someone in return for an injury or wrong suffered at their hands.
It's right there in the definition, champ.

>>212114948
If they weren't guilty they wouldn't have pleaded guilty. Simple

>>212114984
Look at the other definitions of the word, dimwit. They aren’t numbered based upon validity. They’re all equally valid.

>>212115043
What other definitions are you referring to?

>>212115035
The plea bargain system is threatening people with draconian sentences, primarily to punish them for seeking their day in court, so they’ll accept lesser sentences, even if they didn’t commit the crime.

>>212115170
The ones in “show more”

>>212114787
>>212114948
>>212115217
Very tv related and not at all about pol bullshit

>>212115265
Which ones?

>>212113914
yes comrade immigration is very tv related

>>212114948
They plea because they are guilty and probably have 20 prior convictions. The idea that they only were convicted because they were stuck with a public defender is BS, they're just lifelong fuckups that won't stop committing crime.

>>212115358
no it's not

>>212115312
All of them.

>>212115598
If you can't state a definition then I have nothing left to do but accept your concession

>>212115665
How about the one you stated yourself at >>212113046 that convinced me >>212112219, that >>212111759 did use the correct word?

Or are you going to be hyper literal only when it supports your faulty argument?

>>212115884
The definition I stated in >>212113046 is the same as the definition I used later. It's the same definition.

>>212115409
I've had to pay for a lawyer 3 times and I got reduced charges that weren't criminal every time
>DUI reduced to DWAI at 18
>reckless endangerment reduced to harassment (I called a college cop a stupid dyke for having a car pulled over off campus when school wasn't in session in the middle of an icy road across from a gas station parking lot)
>driving an unregistered vehicle thrown out (my wife let the insurance lapse on a car I never drove and the state law was that it was "unregistered" even though it had been insured for months and they had to pull the plates off for the 10 days it was lapsed months before)
Always pay for a lawyer and fuck the nigger babysitter police

>>212115978
Now be hyper literal about what “perceived” means and realize you defeated your own argument.

>>212115980
I hope our brave Boys in Blue lock you up and throw away the key.

>>212110113 (OP)
Judgment : those kids are all the same

>>212114099
It wasn't about a black or brown kid it was about a wop.

>>212117429
Damn you must really love niggers and faggots

My post got deleted so reminder this is just a shitty jewish ripoff of rashomon

Mind broken. How do you watch a court drama and come to any of these conclusions?

Imagine having a state that actually does its job.

Next time you watch this film, watch it as if you, the viewer, are the only one who knows that Henry Fonda is actually the real killer. Go into it with the assumption that Fonda's character is a murderous psychopathic genius, and that part of his sick, twisted plot is getting himself on the jury of the boy he framed for killing his own father.

Imagine that everything he's saying and doing is all part of a sadistic game of his to get away with murder. This movie makes way more sense and becomes 500% better.

>>212119653
Yes and Shawshank is better when you realize that he was guilty and a maniac escaped prison.

>>212110113 (OP)
>Dropped the equivalent of ~$50 on a shitty knife that will get him arrested if he's ever caught with it in public
This guy isn't as clever as he thinks he is.

>>212119853
The movie is set in the US not modern day England.

>>212119853
>that will get him arrested
I bet he could bring tommy gun in a court room and no one would question it

>>212119946
Possession of a switchblade is a misdemeanor in New York

>>212119653
I go into it seeing the entire movie as a Twilight Zone episode, Henry Fonda is the devil that convinced these random people to let a killer go free.

>>212120042
>is

It makes a lot more sense when you realize that Juror 8 is just a bored master ruseman

Insane since day 1 jews have been seeking to destroy this beautiful country

>>212120085
Yes, since 1954.

>>212120150
Now look when the movie was made…

>>212110113 (OP)
why does this movie trigger you retards so much?

>>212120283
Whoa...

>>212112780
The point was that even if the dude heard screaming, he wouldn't know WHO was screaming over the train, just that it was maybe human. Those things were more like roaring rollercoasters than the quiet electric metros and trolleys of today

>>212110113 (OP)
I wonder if the Jewish director also wants WASP's to receive due process?