There are certain films that are considered puzzle films that need to be “solved” to be fully understood. Sometimes it’s explicitly a puzzle (Mulholland Dr.), sometimes it’s simply reputation (Eyes Wide Shut, The Shining), and sometimes nobody knows (Last Year at Marienbad). Do the puzzles diminish the emotional response? Is Eyes Wide Shut’s hidden meaning not as nefarious as its internet reputation? Why are puzzle films no longer made?

>Ma io l'ho capito, sai, quello che vuoi raccontare! Tu vuoi raccontare la confusione che un uomo ha dentro di sé. Ma devi essere chiaro! Mi devi far capire! Altrimenti che scopo c'è?

>>212745500 (OP)
Shining is NOT about the moon landing

>>212745500 (OP)
1/2
There's much to discuss and it's sad to see this thread with so few replies so I'll just type some of my thoughts. Movies is mostly a form of art. An expression of feels and thoughts. There's really no direct puzzle nor solution.

>puzzle films that need to be “solved” to be fully understood
I feel this question starts from a harsh angle conserning the movies you mention later. According to this list of puzzle-movies https://www.imdb.com/list/ls082832362/ their puzzles are more direct and less subtle.

>fully understood
Lets ignore the word "fully" as it's unnecessary and focus on the word "understood". I don't think understanding is the main point when it comes to art. Perhaps the word "experience" serves a better purpose for your concept of puzzles in movies. The filmmaker wants to deliver an experience for the audience and some include puzzles, either with or without a clear solution, to engage with them and allow them more meat for a rewatch.

You mentioned Kubrick and Lynch. They're two filmmakers who included a great deal of obscure symbolism and subtleness in their movies. I feel Kieslowski, Altman, Jodorowsky, Tarkovsky, Aronofsky, Hitchcock, Wilder can be included in that bunch depending on your definition. There's more but I can't really name the off hand. One common theme are their inclination to direct ambigious movies allowing and encouraging interpretation of the art. Their photography, music, dialogue, story, characters has some vagueness, making you question the motive and the intention. Big Guy is a funny example of this.

>>212747571
2/2

>Do the puzzles diminish the emotional response?
I guess it depends on the movie itself. Emotions are not exactly constants. They're individual. Some feel 2001 is the scariest movie ever while others will be bored. You mentioned Last Year at Marienbad and for me that was an interesting experience. I usually go into movies "in the dark", knowing as little as possible about them beforehand, but I think it'd help if Resnais had made the concept of the movie a bit clearer. Train of thoughts, the flow, on the screen, it isn't easy to digest.

>Why are puzzle films no longer made?
I don't watch many newer movies but I feel there's plenty of them. I'd call The Lobster a puzzle movie, perhaps not it's story, but the dystopian world it presents and plenty of the characters are puzzling in some ways. Tenet is another one, no one has a clue what really goes on in it, personally my theory is Nolan felt bad about the TDKR aurora theatre shooting and wanted to personally go back in time and save those people, so he focused on a crazy Time Machine-reversal story.

puzzles r borin

>>212747600
>Tenet is another one, no one has a clue what really goes on in it,
yes they do. it's an easily understood story despite the incoherent presentation.

>>212747600
>my theory is Nolan felt bad about the TDKR aurora theatre shooting and wanted to personally go back in time and save those people, so he focused on a crazy Time Machine-reversal story.
interesting

>>212745500 (OP)

This doesn't answer any of your questions but I'm going to bring up the subject of TV.
The "puzzle show" has become a staple of streaming channels, possibly thanks to LOST.
that may be why puzzle movies are no longer made, that type of artistic expression has moved over to TV shows. Although thinking about it, mystery shows have always had a home on television - murder mysteries, for example - but the long form serial that keeps viewers engaged by posing puzzles is a 21st century development.

Or to put another way: movies are now about instant gratification. They've grown longer, but don't need to use tricks like puzzles to keep audiences in their seats.

Television shows now face immense competition from other shows and from other screens (phones) and have to exploit every trick in the book to keep their viewers, mystery bait being one of them

>>212749116
Reminder that they started filming this on Bauer's 30th birthday

Uncle Frank has looked 48 his whole life

>>212749375
Yes, it's an easy story to get once you've seen it but the first 30-60 minutes is a puzzle. I wrote a bit lazily, my intention was not to point out the puzzle in the movie, more about the intention of Nolan to create one. One can only wonder what he really was thinking when the premise of the movie was so convoluted and the execution so empty. Perhaps there's hidden layers in it after all?

>>212749682
good call, Twin Peaks is a great example of this

>>212745500 (OP)
>Do the puzzles diminish the emotional response? Is Eyes Wide Shut’s hidden meaning not as nefarious as its internet reputation?
i could see it doing that for films like Mulholland because you're not really meant to intellectualize it, it's vibes based, you're simply meant to feel whatever the story and images make you feel and solve it later. with Eyes Wide Shut i could see it causing issues because it has a reputation about being an Epstein cabal type movie and someone would be totally deaf, dumb and blind to everything else the film has to offer being so hyperfocused on that, or the rumors about Kubrick's passing being due to the film.

>>212746097
Fellini always delivering truth nukes

>>212745500 (OP)
>Why are puzzle films no longer made?
They are, it's just that they aren't mainstream anymore because Americans have increasingly become too stupid for them.
Eruope and Asia make them more often (though in Europe you have to mind the politics/culture at play given their filmmakers are often more radical than even ours). I recently watched a French sci-fi movie from 2023 called La Bete with George Mackay and Lea Seydoux that was fantastic and would 100% be up your alley.

>>212745500 (OP)
Under the Silver Lake is a recent example, but it's too niche a genre to risk making a big movie. I don't know how Lynch kept afloat all these years.

At least some shows add some hidden messages and imagery like Raised by Wolves or Lodge 49, or maybe even the first season of True Detective, that keep the viewer guessing.

>>212747600
>>212749375
>>212750601
yeah Tenet has some deeper messages, that the movie doesn't go much into directly (Sator Square), and has connections to Nolan's other movies, even in the music. There's a youtube video going to this more in depth, i lost it though.