>the only class that requires actual aim is the one everyone hates on
but sure spamming the scorch shot is where the real skill lies

The aim assist on this class is second to those fortnight webms i saw about controller assist.

>Bro but he takes SKILL to make the game unfun for other people
I don't get why I'm supposed to care about this. Unfun is unfun

>>712515771 (OP)
I don't care if it takes skill it's not fun to play against and it's the only reason I don't play tf2

>>712515771 (OP)
Get over it.

>>712516540
>core game design is the reason i dont play (game)
tranny behavior

>>712515771 (OP)
sniper is one of the easiest classes to play, same with pyro, both shit

anyone who complains about sniper is just bad at the game. Sniper is so easy to shut down as a scout, a soldier, a demo, a pyro, or a spy. If YOU don't know how, then you're just bad. Seriously, watch some highlander or something to practice. You know how normally in casual spy will just get one kill and die, and it takes skill and luck for a spy to do better than that? Same with sniper. It's so stupid.

>>712516923
trannies main sniper doe

>>712518396
I don't know what year you live in but the spy x sniper matchup is 50/50 now

>>712518510
it's easy to shut down snipers as a spy dude. If they have the razorback literally just shoot them. If they have the jarate backstab them. Or still shoot them. You're golden. It's easy. Come on...

>>712515771 (OP)
The majority of faggots who complain about snipers are literal fucking niggers who play niggerman or soldier, aka the most retarded classes in the game with a bunch of insanely broken primaries and secondaries that require no skill to play on a fundamental level, it's the same faggots who non-stop complained about the gas passer being really good in MvM, this was in spite of niggerman doing one trillion damage with sticky spam anway and soldier having solid support options and damage overall, and really, why the fuck would you whine about a weapon being good in a game against bots where there's potentially good loot on the line assuming you're retarded enough to go Mann Up mode? I don't know what is it about the creatures who main niggerman, but they are all insanely retarded faggots who love to make matches miserable for everyone else, typically by spawn camping or camping corners and making the game fucking unplayable. Valve removed grenades from classes because they thought explosive damage and spamming would make the game shit, yet they made a class THAT IS LITERALLY JUST THAT.
Solarlight is probably one of the most noteworthy demomains and he's a very good show-and-tell of what those subhumans are like.
Soldier mains meanwhile are just faggots with a massive ego who can't aim worth shit and need a broken crutch class to do anything, same faggots who'd play something like Bayonetta or Cloud in Smash 4.
Despite my powerless rant, I still say sniper is retarded because he opposes TF2's base design and sucks to fight against, but demoman is unquestionably just as shit if not worse and also goes against what valve said they wanted for TF2.

>>712519304
Based wall of text

>>712515771 (OP)
People literally just got buckbroken by bots. Youtubers also started making essays crying about snipers being bad game design and suddenly they were despite receiving no more vitriol than any other weapon or playstyle for decades.

>>712515771 (OP)
Protect what you care about, conserve the vision of what the developers wanted. If we listen to, and cater to, the whims of what some whiner wants who doesn't even really care about TF2 (see >>712516540), someone who doesn't understand TF2 and the beauty of its design philosophy, someone who just consumes whatever media and entertainment put in front of them before moving on to the next thing to consume, then you're going to alienate the fans who love TF2. These people arguing to remove Sniper, they don't give a fuck about TF2, and they don't even like TF2 fundamentally. They want to play a completely different game, and they'll ruin the game if Valve listens to them.

I see retards trying to insinuate that the developers themselves thought Sniper was a mistake. Bullshit, they added him for a good reason, because he's a fun and unique way for players to engage with. I see the same shit with people trying to argue that competitive 6s was a part of the original vision of vanilla TF2 because of 8 vs 8 being used for playtesting. If you love and care about TF2, you know 12 vs 12 was always the default. Tired of letting these shitters run the discourse and try to ruin a game they don't even understand. Even this guy >>712519304
>I still say sniper is retarded because he opposes TF2's base design and sucks to fight against
Straight up just has no idea what he's talking about and thinks that a class that was there from day one is somehow antithetical to TF2's core design philosophy because he does one thing unique to other classes (just like every other fucking class does, for damn good reason).

>>712515771 (OP)
>NOOO EVERY PYRO WEAPON MUST BE BUGGED,UNDERPOWERED OR RESKIN. STOP IT STOP IT
If valve won't fix flamethrower damage ramp up, backburner collision, dragon's fury projectile bug or degreaser switch speed, they should buff scorch shot

>>712520724
Don't forget degreaser afterburn. -66%? at least be honest and change it to -75%

MOO
WOAHHAHAHAHAHA

for me its the huntsman

>>712520724
Unnerf airblast too and rebuff axtinquisher. If you get close enough for pyro to melee you despite a range and mobility advantage you deserve to die.

>>712515771 (OP)
they just need sniper rifle base damage to be 40 and all is right in the world

>>712522112
Sniper quickscope should still kill medic.

>>712515771 (OP)
>>the only class that requires actual aim
that'd be scout

>>712520373
>Robin Walker himself and I think another one of TF2's devs explicitly said they considered sniper to be a mistake
>TF2 is meant to be a mid to close range fight game, sniper completely goes against that
>You can get one tapped from anywhere in the map in a moment's notice without even being able to see your opponent
>Implying that a bullshit one shot mechanic that has no range limit is balanced in any way
>Sniper despite supposedly being weak at range can at any moment pull out a one shot combo assuming you don't just one tap any faggot that gets near you with a headshot anyway
Why are sniper mains so painfully disingenuous? Every other class minus niggerman, whom I majorly complained about in my post has damage falloff for a damn good reason, sniper doesn't have this and is able to one shot anyone at any fucking range. TF2's map design is dogshit and has far too many massive open sightlines in maps like badwater were you're forced down a fucking funnel that already cuts down sniper's meager job of clicking on your head so much easier. Nothing about the class is fair nigger, and don't come up with trashtalk about me being a newfag, I've been playing TF2 since early 2012, I've been through the worst moments this game has ever been through.
>>712520724
Why is the dragon's fury so needlessly shit? You try to reflect a projectile and get effectively stunned for 3 seconds, the weapon already fries my FPS when I just try to shoot with it anyhow. It's probably the only primary on pyro I'd ever consider using, but it just sucks so much dick after the hitbox nerf, even if you have good tracking, which I thankfully have as a retarded who tortures himself to play heavy, the hitbox is tighter than a nun's ass sometimes and the projectile looks as though it goes straight through faggots, it's retarded.
>Buff the scorchshot
Fuck off, imagine not being able to use the detonator and needing a shitty crutch to play the game for you.

>>712522281
supposedly weak at close range*

>>712520901
The weapon switch speed is also not convoluted anough yet, make it 0.5% increased switch speed when switching to melee, 0.7% when switching to secondary 0.333333333333% when switching back to primary and 200% when bringing up the class change menu, that'll clear things up.

>>712515771 (OP)
>>the only class that requires actual aim is the one everyone hates on
But no one hates Scout or Demoman.

>>712518561
>literally just shoot them
And they 180 quickscope you for 150 before the third shot
>backstab
Standing next to their team or in sentires. Very few sniper nests are so isolated that their own teams don't inadvertently guard them

>>712519304
>Dominated, ya headshottin' Judas!

I have had an epiphany. The reason sniper is an issue is because TF2 wasn't designed for players to spend 20,000 hours in an aim trainer before opening the game. But when people do, it usually isn't a problem except specifically on the sniper class.
So it's not really a problem for normal skill, and if someone really has ten thousand hours in TF2 then I think it's fair for them to be able to stomp pretty well. A ten-thousand-hour soldier or demo or even scout is going to rape your team just as well as a ten-thousand-hour sniper. The issue is that sniper is so easy to train with external tools, and nowadays tryhards commonly use those tools, and so become godlike at sniper in a way no other class has the ability to become.

It's like a bunch of kids play-fighting in the street and coming up with their own fighting styles but then one tryhard goes and takes MMA or krav maga lessons or whatever and then comes back and lays out all the other kids. Or a game night where a bunch of friends gather on weekends to play various board games but one autist sits on chess.com and grinds ELO and then only plays chess on game night, and absolutely destroys everyone else.

>>712518430
Trannies main pyro and spy, edgy brown people main sniper.

>>712515771 (OP)
Game where everyone runs around and causes chaos
Pick the one class that stands around aiming
Answer this
Why are you gay?

>>712525350
Trannies main pyro, heavy and medic (specifically to pocket each other). Spy is for pathetic weebs.

>comp"unfun"trannies
>embrace the game and play it as vanilla as possible, just as Robin Walker intended

>casualbros
>seethe 24/7 and demand that 11% of the classes in the game get deleted

Weird!

>>712515771 (OP)
>rapes light and medium classes
>knocks everyone else to oblivion
luv this little nigga

>>712525627
>YOU CAN NOT GET A HEAVY TO MID BRO IT SLOWS THE GAME DOWN
>YOU CAN NOT PLAY ENGINEER BRO IT SLOWS THE GAME DOWN
>YOU CAN NOT HAVE 2 DEMOMEN BRO IT SLOWS THE GAME DOWN
dial 8

>>712525627
>6v6
>vanilla as possible

>>712525627
Then why is Valve's competitive mode with no class/weapon bans dead, pray tell?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhGNKS751jk&t

>>712525797
>>712525798
>>712525863
*headshots from the other side of the map*
It's part of the game therefore it's FUN!

>>712525983
>take game
>remove 95% of the game
>HURR DURR MUCH BETTAR
gobble cox

>dying instantly from a sniper
D:

>dying instantly from a crit
:D

>>712526070
I agree, removing Sniper is retarded

>>712515771 (OP)
>muh skill
yeah no one cares retard it's a game not a sport, the idea is for it to be fun and getting headshot across the map by a sniper standing next to a supply locker is not fum

>>712526145
>crit projectile
Can be dodged
>crit hitscan
Only instakills at close/mid range, unless it's a revolver
>sniper
Instakills at any range, any time

>>712526303
>>crit projectile
>Can be dodged
*bombs you blindly from around a corner with the beggar's bazooka*

>>712526303
>crit projectile
>Can be dodged
Wrong. You land 100% of the crit projectiles that you aim. According to your retarded logic, you can also dodge sniper hits

>playing as heavy
>have to deal with scouts, demo, soldiers, sentries and spies 24/7
>looking constantly around me, changing target to keep the pressure on
>have to perfectly track scouts before they come near me
>have to look behind me every 5 seconds if there is any competent spy in the other team
>have to dodge scorchshots if there is a cunt pyro
>die to a sniper on the other side of the map because I entered his view for 2 seconds while I was dealing with the entire rest of the game trying to kill me

Cool design bro

>>712526303
The stock launcher's rockets have about 5 square miles of blast radius and will instakill everything inside except a heavy. Wipe the fucking grease out of your fat rolls.

>>712526510
It's called TEAM fortress 2. If the entire rest of the game was trying to kill you, then your team should've been free to go and kill the sniper, and if they didn't that's your team's problem, not the sniper's.

Objectively the easiest sniper in all of gaming once you learn how to quickscope in 5 minutes
Damage falloff
Bullet spread
Projectile travel time
Every single mechanic that forces other classes to fight each other up close makes him unable to lose in his range
The subhumans who "main" him were too shit to be awpers in cs

>all of these comptrannies demanding valve to remove sniper from the game
Disgusting. Just go play overwatch instead you faggots

>>712526194
You don't need to remove sniper just nerf it, right now it has an absurd skill ceiling that allows players with enough skill to instantly kill people across the entire battlefield while taking little to no risk. You don't just balance the game just by skill requirement, there needs to be hard ceilings, there is for every other class. If you remove that and balance by skill alone, what happens is that breaks the game when people develop an insane amount of skill.

Imagine a game where every player plays absolutely perfectly. Perfect aim, perfect movement, perfect strategy. The sniper will dominate every single time. The sniper would demolish every other player to where the game would become trivial and there would be no point playing any other class. It's absurdly powerful.

>>712526510

>>712526796
>Perfect aim, perfect movement, perfect strategy.
Congratulations, now no one picks Sniper anymore because the class has shit movement, zero utility when there's a uber and has long CD between every single "instant" kill

>>712526510
>wahhhh, I play the one class where positioning is most important, but I don't wanna watch my angles and bottleneck enemies into a favorable position, I just wanna stand out in the open but the game won't let me wahhh

>>712526510
Agree about sniper but spy is bullshit too as a heavy. Keeping a spy dead center of your FOV should always be an adequate defense to a backstab but it is not. It's not so bad as other classes where your defense is to back away from the spy, but as a heavy with the minigun spun up you can't quickly do that. If you're sat on a corner spun up and the spy leaps round toward you, probably with a kunai health buff he farmed on an AFK heavy, there is literally nothing you can do to stop him finding a hitbox and backstabbing you right between the eyes. It's a crapshoot.

>>712525691
I never understood it. Stock pipe launcher always seemed better to me.

>>712526646
>>712527064
>>712527067
Sniper should do half damage to Heavy
That's it, problem solved

>>712527175
>problem solved
>still one shots a medic with a body shot
nah

>it's okay for my class to be simultaneously the most powerful and safest in the entire field because... because i'm so good okay???
snipertroons really think it's fair they should only die to suicidal attacks in a game about close combat

>>712519804
>autists with decades of playtime are better than autists with just a few hundred hours playtime
surprisedretard.jpg

>>712527175
No, valve should instead double heavy's HP
I'll still complain and call it underpowered because the fault does not lie in the sniper but on the fact that heavy is a poorly designed gimmick class

>>712527246
I'm the biggest Sniper defender there is and I have 22 hours played on him out of 7.5k total. He's boring as fuck to play personally, but I love strategizing around him.

>>712527175
Give Heavy access to the banners so he can pop a batallions backup after building damage.

>>712527246
I unironically thought that you were talking about soldiers or demos

>>712527246
The flawed argument about this is also that Sniper, being in the backline of his own team area, can return to his position very rapidly after respawn. Meanwhile the enemies has to return all the way back for another chance at killing him.

People who want sniper nerfed/removed either day so because of a YouTube video or their frustrated that they can't pubstomp.

>>712527419
sniper doesn't control the entire field while behind several teammates and a sentry

>>712527461
soldiers and demos*

If sniper is so overpowered why don't the world's best players run him full-time in 6s, and instead consider him an off-class like 90% of the time?

>>712527598
Because 6's is effectively a different game from regular TF2

>>712527461
>>712527510
This guy plays exclusively on dm_mariokart

>>712527598
Stop noticing things

>>712527598
Because the people who decide the rules in 6s lost their souls years ago and delete everything from the game that goes against the meta and/or slows it down by 2%.

>>712527598
because there are only 12 players and they deliberately picked the gamemode about going fast?
the design of their mode is fucking over the sniper
look at highlander if you want a genuine representation of sniper and come back saying that's a fun experience

>>712527663
What the hell is regular TF2? Please explain anon

>>712527598
Sniper is more powerful with more teammates around him, that's a fact, but he's not overpowered even in 12 vs 12.

>>712527675
i accept your concession
sniper more often than not controls the main and causes stalemates by forcing enemies into cover lest they want to take 150s and the only reliable counter is himself

>>712527598
This line of thinking is retarded. Comp players considering engineer as an off class does not negate the fact that the engineer is the best area denial class in the game, by far. I'd tread carefully when talking about rulesets where the trannies run the show, if I were you.

>>712527461
There are multiple maps where he can do just that because valve makes sniper roosts way too damn powerful

>>712527854
>I'd tread carefully when talking about rulesets where actual broken classes like soldier and scout run the show, if I were you.
Fixed it for ya

>>712527663
>>712527697
Not in ways that affect sniper. The only banned weapon of note is the jarate and that's because he can piss on the medic from across the map to support the soldiers and scouts, which is not at all what people who think sniper is overpowered ever cry about

>>712527709
Highlander is artificially limited by the "one of each class" rule, so for example you're always forced to run a heavy even when he's near useless, and you can only run one soldier so it's not possible to double bomb, etc

>>712527854
Engineer is only the best when there are multiple of them, and he's class-limited to 1. He also has the wrangler banned
Sniper is usually not class limited and yet nobody ever runs double sniper, and none of sniper's main weapons (i.e. stock rifle) are banned

>>712515771 (OP)
>skill
I use scorch shot because it makes people mad.

>>712527735
12v12 up to 16v16
And even in 6s sniper gets picked plenty on koth maps and on every final point

>sniper is broken and unfun when you play the game on a 32 player server
>sniper is balanced and fun when you play the game on a 12 player server
Oh wow what a surprise, it's as if shoving shitloads of players into one single map is absolutely shit and unintended game design. Funny how tendies are also complaining that mario kart world's online is a dogshit mess now thanks to the 24 player matches

But who cares, let's petition valve to add official 100 player support

>>712527934
>scout
>broken
A single level 2/3 sentry gapes his asshole wide open

>>712528076
>>sniper is balanced and fun when you play the game on a 12 player server
He is neither of those things still, he just doesnt fit into the hyper mobility meta.

>>712527959
The whole retarded comp world revolves around every class except the medic literally flying to mid and the sniper doesn't have the tools to do that. That's why he's an "off class" because 6s weenies build the game off of the meta instead of building the meta off of the game.

>>712528119
use some of your hyper mobility meta to dodge
it's just hitscan it's not like you have to actually move away from a projectile

>>712528028
>12v12 up to 16v16
Aaaaaand WRONG you mentally ill casualtard tranny. The game launched also on consoles and on the Xbox 360, there was a 16 player cap, meaning that 8v8 was also officially considered standard TF2. The game was never balanced around your 24 or 32 player fanfics, they were just arbitrary server caps numbers

>>712528263
>game launched also on consoles and on the Xbox 360, there was a 16 player cap
The same consoles that never got an update?
Your argument is shit I'll not waste my time with it

>dev commentary
>we didn't want sniper to be able to do snapfire 150s
>so we... added a quickscope delay shorter than the blink of an eye???
if they set it to at least one second and made flinching actually forcefully move his crosshair he has to correct for no one would be bitching

>>712528263
You actual troglodyte. The console server player cap of 16 is there because consoles are underpowered and couldn't handle more than that. The default way to play, and the intended way to play, was always 12 vs 12.

>>712528335
Not an argument, the console version is still an official TF2 version
If 12v12 was that crucial for TF2 to work, then Valve would have made sure that the console version launched with 12v12 support.

>712528473
>console version is still an official TF2 version
No it's not
No (You)

>>712515771 (OP)
They should unironically make close things out of focus when you zoom in on the rifle, to prevent instafire quickscopes from 2 feet away.

>>712528473
>official
yeah, and the nintendo 3ds terraria edition is the official version and not just a port

>>712528384
And 24/32 only exists on PC because it isn't underpowered. Had the game launched today instead, would 200/500 servers be the new correct way to play the game?

Fact is, 16 player TF2 is the golden valve endorsed player ratio. Anything more than that is just meme matches that shouldn't be taken seriously

>>712528182
Even on last sniper is only used sometimes, and immediately switched off once he gets a med pick or another important pick

>>712528342
>and made flinching actually forcefully move his crosshair he has to correct for
do you even play this game at all

>>712528568
When joining any server above 24 players it literally shows you a text box that the game was *only designed for up to 24 players*. Not 16, troon.

>>712528212
I'm just waiting for some tard ape to inevitably reply to you with
>this guy thinks you can dodge hitscan lol
People that think this must suck at scout 1 vs 1s and deathmatching in general to not understand the value of zigging when your opponent thinks you'll zag, or using your movement to throw off an opponent's prediction of where your body/head will be when they're going to aim.

>able to nail the spaz Scout jumping all over the place even at close range
>cant hit a rev up Heavy or a Pyro running directly at me
This is why I dont play Sniper

>>712528568
>And 24/32 only exists on PC because it's normal
yeah you got that right
>Had the game launched today instead, would 200/500 servers be the new correct way to play the game?
mass multiplayer has always been a meme outside of mmos
in tf2 it'd fucking invalidate the design of half the classes
>Fact is, 16 player TF2 is the golden valve endorsed player ratio.
they endorsed it by... releasing a port that flopped and never updated?

>>712525627
>embrace the game and play it as vanilla as possible
comp is nothing like casual. Removing sniper would still make casual more like tf2 than comp is now

>>712528659
do you? it returns to where it was after the flinch animation
you just have to wait that third of a second for it to return
and he's arbitrarily fucking immune to minigun flinches at long range

>>712528680
> was *only designed for up to 24 players*. Not 16, troon.
Ok ESL
Up to 24 simply means that even 1v1 TF2 is a correct way to play
Compfags playing 6v6 is clearly more intended than 16v16 matches. Thanks for proving my point nigger

>>712528506
>>712528542
To be fair I can see that anon's argument in the sense that that's what valve had on launch. Consoles haven't gotten any updates since, it's true, but at launch it was indeed an official valve version of the game. The nintendo 3ds version of terraria was not something the devs prepared on release and therefore during core development, it was a much later port.
And one of the main arguments for sniper is that "valve designed him into the game therefore he's intended and good" - according to design that happened prior to release, and which is therefore also reflected in the console versions. True, they have since majorly reworked some classes, such as adding airblast to pyro and movable buildings to engineer and fixing spy's backstab in several ways, meanwhile they haven't updated sniper at all. So that's not to say that the console version is the definitive, flawless vision for the game; Valve clearly had some mistakes in their initial design, that got smoothed out over time in future updates. But, it was still an official version.

>>712528837
Why wouldn't they say 16 instead of 24 in that disclaimer then you ugly fat fuck. Thanks for proving my point you morbidly obese sweaty lardass.

>>712527105
hard to use high reward
hitting doubledonks is satisfying as fuck

>>712526796
Just flank as scout or spy.

>>712528824
Oh that's what you meant. That makes no sense though, if you sustain damage (e.g. pyro fire ticks) would you just end up looking at the sky if you don't correct your mouse? Seems nonsenical.
The flinching is plenty annoying if you're trying to aim a shot; it's very very hard for a sniper on fire to reliably land headshots, for example.

>>712515771 (OP)
>vaccinates the sniperbros
Comfy assisting and making people mad.

>>712528542
360 and pc version of TF2 Alaunched on the same day and both were made by valve
The 3ds version of terraria is literally a fanfic made by a different developer and includes exclusive content that can't even be ported to PC via modding due to copyrights

Cope faggot

>>712526145
There's plenty of servers you can play on without crits though, none you can go to where headshots are disabled

>>712529029
The console port with a playerbase of 2 is not "core tf2", smelly.

>>712525691
I wish it didn't have the weird air resistance downside on the grenades. Landing double donks is already high risk high reward given the time wasted on a miss and the pitiful damage of even a direct hit canonball, so it's already less powerful than stock, it doesn't need an extra hidden nerf.

>>712529017
>vaccinate the snipers
>they don't hit anything
>team dies
good job!

>>712528992
it's nowhere near annoying enough for a class with such a dominant position over their enemies
if you're dealing 3 damage when he can do 150 and need to suicide into the safest and most protected guy on the field to do more you should at least be able to disrupt him

>>712528958
>Why wouldn't they say 16 instead of 24 in that disclaimer then you ugly fat fuck
Because your ugly fat fuck ESL brain does not understand the meaning of "up to"
You can play the game any way you want AS LONG as you don't surpass 24 players. Once you hit 25 players, then the game becomes fanfic territory
According to your logic, a server should automatically shut down if a player leaves in a 24 player match because 23 player games is a NO NO

>>712529129
Valve LITERALLY SAID that the game was designed for 24 players. It's literally in a message that is hardcoded into the game. Maybe learn to read English before calling people ESL you 5 IQ subhuman mongoloid.

>>712529029
it's an inferior console port that never got updates
that's all it ever was
if it was more then it'd still have a modern console version but it doesn't

>>712529158
Go play the shitty broken Casual Mode right now that regularly has between 12 and 16 players total and tell me how fun it is to play with that many people on a server compared to 24. Tell me how fun Hydro, a launch map, is with a small amount of players where someone can just run uncontested through a flank to cap the point within 30 seconds. Go play Payload and tell me how 8 vs 8 is the golden ratio of players. Dumb fuck.

>>712529292
> Tell me how fun Hydro, a launch map, is
the answer is that it's not, never was
it's 5cp but both teams are attacking and defending their lasts and it switches to a/d once in a while and the whole map is dustbowl tier chokes

>>712529292
Hydro is unironically only playable on low player count matches. At 24/24, it's a stalemate simulator

>>712529450
how does hydro work anyways, i'm retarded
i've seen others say it's underrated and i genuinely want to understand the kino

>>712529450
Stalemates are fun, what is this hatred people have for stalemates? A stalemate means the game is balanced and territory control is at a premium. A 30 minute 5cp match that ends 0-0 is literally peak TF2.

>>712529560
>Stalemates are fun
Then why is hydro always empty?????????????

>>712529560
>t. plays red on dustbowl and nothing else

>>712529560
they're interesting when the match is 3rd vs 2nd point but they're not on hydro or on 5cp last holds

>>712529549
Hydro was made with sudden death mode in mind. If you don't know what sudden death mode is, google it. It's basically an impromptu arena match after a stalemate where the first team to have all of its players die, loses.
>>712529649
Because Valve made it so that only community servers could host Hydro back in like 2010 or so. As a result, it was basically a death sentence to have Hydro in your map rotation for a community server because Quickplay wouldn't be able to load new players into that map. It killed the map effectively until Valve added it back into Casual Mode, where it's still dead because Casual Mode sucks due to too many choices.

>>712529292
This >>712529450
Early Valve map design is known for being very mediocre at times, and Hydro is one of those maps that are shit through and through, that's no surprise. But low playercount Hydro is vastly better than high playercount Hydro. The map is tiny, the chokes are tiny, the rooms and open areas are tiny, and each section is tiny so walking from spawn to the point is always fast. It's basically built to be a low player count deathmatch style map.

>>712529549
The entire map is basically 5CP except there's two parallel mids for more variety. Each round takes place on a pair of points, one owned by each team, and as soon as one team captures the other team's point the round ends and another one begins at the new "frontline". So it's basically 6CP and every capture makes a new round.
It's neat because the entire map is bigger and every fight is boxed in to a different section, so there's paths that open and close depending on exactly which pair of points is being contested right now. But forcing a new round to start on every capture is a bit of a gimmick. It does mean that for example it's impossible to set up on last or backcap, and every point fight begins fresh with no engineer buildings prebuilt etc., but it also slows the game down.

Ultimately when people say it's underrated I think it's more about tc_ being a gamemode that could be an interesting gimmick, but because the only official map is almost unplayable with how stalemate-prone it is, it's basically been abandoned. But even on community servers nobody runs tc maps, even supposedly "better" community made ones.

>>712529934
>>712529971
damn, it does sound fun on paper. shame it's hard to design a map around it

>>712530052
Hydro should've been a nighttime map with light props on/off showing, and lighting, the correct path to the point.

>>712525627
This is why I don’t play pvp games anymore. The constant fear that devs are going to listen to reddit trannies and remove parts of the game I enjoy to cater to people who don’t really care about the game and just have a primal need to complain and destroy everything good they come into contact with. I’ve experienced this too many times and will only play pvp games again once devs stop listening to reddit. I can’t put into words how much I vehemently despise all that website has done to videogames

>>712530224
this

>>712530224
It's more on the devs for making the change in the first place. Every game has tons of retards, not every dev listens to them.

>>712529560
Your average soccer fan everyone.

>>712515771 (OP)
it wouldnt be much of a problem if all his secondaries didnt let him counter all his weaknesses.

>can sit behind the backline within sentry range with a shield on his back to stop spies from killing him instantly even though the spy earned it by dodging his team and teamfire.
>can sit in the backline and avoid afterburn damage completely
>can kill anybody hes close enough with a 2 weapon combo effortlessly

one bad sightline is all it takes for a good sniper to shutdown the enemy team, I wouldnt honestly object to this if all his secondaries didnt basically hard crutch for tunnelvisioning.

>>712530305
fuck no, baseball and american football for me

>>712530320
I will say, Darwin's Danger Shield is total bullshit. I believe it can literally turn off a Dragon's Fury Pyro, which is beyond bullshit that a Pyro flanks properly, gets in close range, and still has to have a melee duel with a Sniper. Change that shit.

>>712515771 (OP)
>Spy
Filter class. If you know how to recognise them it is effectively just dead weight so it is only viable in matches with idiots or noobs. Valve personally murdered the niches it had for engineer/sniper counter by giving them too many good tools as well as its ability to duel other light classes by nerfing the Ambassador/Dead Ringer into the ground.
>Pyro
Role as spy counter is useless now everyone with a brain knows how to deal with them and has no other strong niches so Valve kept throwing new toys at it in the hopes of finding one while never giving it any actual purpose as a fighter that the Demo/Soldier couldn't do better.
>Sniper
Least dogshit implementation of the class in any hero shooter ever made (charge-up time, visible dot, lack of mobility, lack of bodyshot kill potential) but still a design mistake that should not exist.

Remove these three from the game and effectively nothing changes about it except it gets more fun with less deadweight on each team and no glaring design flaws left.

>>712530481
>which is beyond bullshit that a Pyro flanks properly, gets in close range, and still has to have a duel
This is every pyro matchup versus every class, half of which win outright with most loadouts. Being good versus pyro is not an achievement, they are the only class with a hard losing matchup to medic.

>>712530137
Counterpoint: steel is regularly played even in casual despite being even more confusing than hydro

>>712530647
>>712530481
>>712530320
Valve gave all the classes too many tools to cover their weaknesses and destroyed the rock-paper-scissors balance the game was designed around in the process. Sniper should be dead if caught offguard up-close by any other class, Pyro should have an advantage if managing to legitimately ambush anyone besides maybe a Heavy, Spy should be able to get kills if he successfully gets behind enemy lines and finds someone alone, etc.

>>712530628
Widowmaker from overeat h is pretty well designed, a good tank will never die to one.

>>712531092
Widowmaker still has major issues, to the point there's "Widow maps" identified by the community where she's known to be a problem on them because they have long sightlines and multiple spots for her to rotate between while holding angles. She's arguably even worse there because heroes like Ashe and Hanzo are significantly better implementations of the Sniper archetype that don't turn any maps into "peak a corner and get oneshot simulator" the way she does.

They should move her kit's power towards her machinegun primary fire + traps to make her an ambusher and lock the sniping to her ult with no buildup time if they want to still do the "power fantasy" of her character imo

>>712530647
No it isnt, Pyros that get hit with the Dragons Fury are still lit up, Pyros that Engage DF pyros usually end up losing most of the time.Darwins Dangershield deserves the slapdown it needs from immunity to Resistance and thats it. this goes for all the weapons that do the same shit.

>Spycicle
>immunity replaced with timed resistance

>>712530320
The funny thing is when I'm playing sniper, I do use jarate and bushwacka a lot because I find it fun, though I often feel like really the SMG would've been more effective. But anyway, when I play against snipers, I basically never ever feel like the bushwacka combo is overpowered. It's so rare that I die to it, and when I do it's almost always because I was being cocky and wanted to challenge him in melee for some reason gambling that he wouldn't hit his swing, but then he does. If I'm not being intentionally retarded, it's so fucking easy to kill him just out of melee range.
Jarate alone is the more annoying weapon by far - you can kill the sniper but with his dying breath he lands a piss on you and now you're marked for death for like ten seconds.

>>712530481
I would agree except that it's pyro, fuck pyro. Every class should have a weapon that turns off all of pyro's weapons.

>people bitching about pyro being too OP
>people bitching about pyro sucking ass
I do wonder who mains who.

>>712531092
that has nothing to do with her as a character it has to do with healers being overtuned and tank hp being deliberately set above the point of oneshot garbage

shes probably the worst designed sniper character in any of these games, she has fucking built-in wallhacks and ZERO downtime because of a combination of retarded rate of fire, charge rate, nonexistent reload time, and the fact that she doesnt even need to switch weapons to use her secondary
its actually kind of absurd how blatantly she was made to create a sniper character with no weaknesses, shes basically every single thing tf2 deliberately tried to avoid letting the sniper have all at once

>>712532012
so you're an asshat got it. you know that pyro is the worse performing class in the game you know, at the higher levels of TF2 pyro players almost dont fucking exist.

T.Demoman main.

wave gbye to ya head wanka

>>712515771 (OP)
>the only class that requires actual aim
This is what sniperfags actually believe

>>712519304
yeah, why is demo allowed to be overpowered anyway? fucking nega-

>>712532074
>>712532317
Pyro is a shitty class, the problem is he's rewarded for being shitty in ways that are supremely annoying to the people fighting him.
A pyro player can be utter garbage and die without getting a single kill. But now the other player still lost half his health and is on fire and needs to go seek out a medkit. It's not OP by any means but it still sucks fucking ass to fight against; any other class putting in this little effort would do barely any damage, except maybe heavy but he takes five million years to get anywhere and is the easiest class to ambush, flank or take out from range.

The problem with pyro is that his skill floor is absolutely abysmal. People complain about "lol soldier shoot feet" but if a soldier is shitty you can still dodge his rockets, plus if you don't know how to rocket jump he's the second slowest class in the game with no mobility options.
Skilled pyros are fine to fight against. I don't mind working to outplay an airblast god. I don't mind dying to a well executed flare punch. I just really mind dying to a fresh install because he happened to be within 10 meters of me and pressed M1.

Another problem is that pyro's skill ceiling is pretty high but he doesn't get anything out of it, W+M1 often deals more damage than the most epic combo plays, and even when it doesn't the most sweatlord pyro will still do less damage and have less crowd control than a good demo, and have less flanking potential than a decent scout. So it's not even fun actually playing pyro myself and getting good at him. It's literally a pointless class that just exists to be an annoyance.

>>712532582
>>712532582
This was fixed with the Dragons Fury but people like you didnt like the idea that pyro could stand toe to toe with other generalists without relying on his afterburn. now so they fucking gutted that weapon and now its literally WAY too hard to use properly with a buggy ass hitbox that requires SPECIAL CROSSHAIRS in order to actually use the fucking thing. you might as well play demoman because the damage does not match the usecase. if the DF did 20% sure let it rock the way it is now but it should intently TWOSHOT scouts like any real fucking primary on the other generalists.

The class that requires the most aiming skill is Demoman
>Projectile only class, so he needs to aim where his enemies are going for both Grenade and Sticky Launcher
>Needs to account for gravity while aiming and at longer ranges can barely see the enemy
>Each pipe has random spread because fuck you
>Need to account for where your enemies are to your stickies to maximize damage
>Need to account for sticky jumping and placing stickies while blast jumping
>Need to aim while flying through the air at sonic speeds to bomb certain targets
>Need to also keep track of your sticky traps while aiming grenades
>If you miss, the only consolation you’ll get is just 30 damage from rollers
>You need to hit most classes 2 times in a row to kill them or else they’ll kill you instead
Sniper on the other hand
>Hitscan so no need for accounting for your opponent’s speed unless you’re playing the Huntsman (the projectile that actually acts like a magnet and is way faster than pipes or stickies)
>Gets Zoom feature
>You don’t even need to get headshots, you oneshot 5 of the 9 classes with bodyshots and do more than 3/4ths to Demo/Pyro/Soldier
>You can quickscope too I guess
>Oh and if you miss, don’t worry the enemy is miles away and has to fight Soldiers, Scouts, Heavies, Demos, Pyros, and Sentries to get to you, and you have a large ammo reserve too

>>712533494
Oh yeah I don't mind fighting against the DF at all, if it had reduced afterburn but more damage and didn't nerf airblast for no reason I think it could be a fantastic weapon. Too bad it's mediocre enough that almost no pyros use it.
Fucking delete the stock flamethrower and force everyone to use the DF. Also remove afterburn from flareguns except maybe the detonator because it's cool. That's it, that's all pyro needs to not be a complete garbage class whose only purpose is to annoy the fuck out of other players.

>>712533515
>>Projectile only class
the class with the alternate loadout referred to as 'demoknight'?

>>712533879
melee activates on a delay therefore it's really a projectile

>>712533515
demo ain't that hard
not that sniper is
learning how to sticky spam properly and when to keep your stickies for your own protection doesn't take that much
the class would be a lot deeper if he had the gunboats, otherwise you're just a typical frontliner

>>712515771 (OP)
Scout requires more aim than sniper

why doesn't sniper have reverse damage falloff

>>712518396
/thread

opinions on huntsman?

>>712535515
funy

>>712515771 (OP)
>2009
>most difficult class
>most nerfed class
>2025
>still the most nerfed class
>still the biggest source of butthurt
lol

>>712518396
>Same with sniper. It's so stupid.
sniper stands out in the open surrounded by enemies?

>>712518396
This, been playing TF2 since 2009 and nobody ever had a problem with Sniper until the tourist troon shitters started playing post Jungle Inferno and decided to make gay video essays on why he was OP instead of using that time to develop any kind of gamesense and awareness. It makes me actively glad that Valve doesnt update the game anymore because they would 100% cater to these fags, like how they raped the Ambassador because medic mains in tourneyfag settings were butthurt about it despite it having been perfectly fine in other places for almost a decade untouched. The zoomers who are so desperate to '''save''' tf2 are the reason it's dying in the first place.

>>712535675
>still the most nerfed class
>has weapons to counter spies, pyros, flinching, has a built in heavy flinch immunity
sniggers really live in a bizarro world where privilege feels like oppression

>>712515771 (OP)
Wasting a slot to piss anger snipers off is worth it.

>>712533790
Fuck off. Bitches like you whined about combos and DF so hard that those got castrated. You wanted WM1 to be viable, here you have itand deal with it.

>>712536786
>hello I hate w+m1 and I wish afterburn was deleted from the game
>"hurr you're the reason they nerfed all the non-afterburn based playstyles!!"
Do you have brain damage anon

>>712537223
Yes, I have brain damage. Shits like you complain about WM1 now but you complained about combos, axtinguisher DF even harder. I can still remember the amount of seethe Ive witnessed whenever I fucked others with the pre nerf reserve shooter combo. And now you complain about scorch shot, which is a semi reliable gap closer at best and annoying at worst. Only still standing shitters complain about it. Not to mention the sheer amount of anti flame secondaries all the classes have.

>>712537798
>Shits like you complain about WM1 now but you complained about combos, axtinguisher DF even harder.
I have never once in my life complained about axtinguisher or DF or combos.
The reserve shooter was retarded (spamming airblast at players is probably the second most annoying thing a pyro can do, nowhere near as bad as fire damage and afterburn but still definitely plays into the class role of being utterly annoying) but personally I never really ran into it anywhere near enough to actually complain about it either
Various people complain about various things, in this very thread people are complaining about everything from sniper to fucking demoman, that doesn't mean it's all me or some shit

>scorch shot
Yes I complain about scorch shot because of afterburn. Also because it can hit twice for some reason which just feels like a bug (no other flare gun does this). Stop fucking putting me on fire. It is indeed "annoying at worst" and that's my entire problem with pyro, his only purpose is to be fucking annoying and nothing else.
When I get headshot from across the map, the sniper had to aim carefully to click on my tiny head, and he got a kill for it. When I get set on fire from across the map, the pyro just had to click repeatedly on the general location of a doorway or chokepoint, and he doesn't even get a kill for it, but now I have to fucking turn around and go run to a medpack or dispenser and hope no other teammates have just collected the medkits, unless I have a medic shoved up my ass. That or I accept my fate of just taking 75 extra damage for no reason.
It takes zero effort from the pyro to apply and a shitton of effort from me to negate. And it isn't even good, it's not like the pyro will win games for his team or get any picks or stop a push. It is purely and entirely an "annoy the other team" button. Which is pyro's entire existence. What a terrible archetype for a class in a multiplayer game.

>>712527175
Sniper fully charged headshot does exactly 450 damage for a reason, anon.
Heavy is the single most oppressive class in game and only beaten by choke spamming demoman or a hardscoping sniper.

>>712535969
>just trade all your utility to counter a single class with a gimmick for a split second
lmao, ask me how i know you're a pub pyro

>>712525530
I've known one Spy main in my life and this checks out.

>>712542013
>utility
>sniper
everything you have is self serving cancer

>>712542013
what the fuck are you trading nigger?
the smg?

Sniper hate threads like these are just shitters making excuses for their shortcomings.
A good heavy, soldier, demo can and does pubstomp much harder than a sniper of equal skill can ever hope to.
Where are the threads for those classes effortlessly going on 50 killing sprees?

>>712515771 (OP)
The way sketchek plays Pyro seems more skill based than any sniper I've even seen

>>712542881
>effortlessly
it takes much more skill and brain to do that as any other class
sniper is so low iq to play that a script following a navmesh can completely replace the player whereas other classes need awareness
the easiest sniper in all of gaming

>>712515771 (OP)
You do have a hat worth at least $100, right /v/?

>>712542881
scorch_shot.jpg

imagine showing this map to a nutf2 fag, they would not believe it used to be one of the most popular community maps, there's so many hecking sightlines!

buzzword central

>>712544207
Yeah, a decade ago.
Sold it and downloaded nohats mod

>sniper is le overpow-
plap

>>712544586
that's gonna be a lmaobox toggle from me, dawg

>>712515771 (OP)
>Sniper
>Aim
You can quickscope spam down a choke (or anywhere really) and get instant headshots.

>>712539706
>"I dont complain"
>Writes a wall of text
Just wear the darwins and be done with it.

>>712544390
Back then no one could aim so it was okay. Orange allcrit servers were the best.

>>712515771 (OP)
Sniper and Spy are by far the biggest casualties of the TF2 devs not realizing that there would eventually be turbo autists putting thousands of hours into a single class.

>>712545042
>Back then no one could aim so it was okay.
this is the secret code to why people complain about sniper now. 144hz monitors and adderal addicts caused immense damage to casual gaming

>>712515771 (OP)
>is THE class for aimbots
sniper would be good if it wasn't for every other game to have some fucker spinning around in the air sniping fucker out of nowhere, plus they're the most annoying for my demoknight build

>>712544996
>stops reading at the third word
>misses the point completely
Complaining is usually done about a specific topic. One can complain endlessly about one thing and never complain once about a different once.

>Just wear the darwins
Yeah let me just change my entire loadout just to protect myself against ONE class that is otherwise basically useless. Team support with minicrits? Spy and demoknight repellant? Medium range reliable damage if I can't reliably quickscope? Nah, I need to account for pyros on the other team!
I guess that's pyro's role then. Denying jarate to snipers and pistol to scouts. What a wonderful class.

>>712544207
Of course I do, AND I use the nohats mod

>just want to use the YER
>every fucking Sniper is wearing this
It bewilders me how Sniper gets to have all of these fuck you [Class/Weapon] unlocks.

>>712515771 (OP)
>"every class can be dealt with"
>"every class can be interacted with each other"
>get clicked from 300 miles away from a spot you couldnt have possibly seen while dealing with other shit thrown at your general direction
>get clicked again because you forgot to play a schizophrenic Where's Waldo? game
>get clicked AGAIN AGAIN because you forgot you randomly crouch, spin and emote
Playing Heavy must be like being confined to the cuck chair. Get fucked from across the map and since there wasnt nothing you could have done, the optimal move according to /v/ is to applaud the Sniper and gift him whatever cosmetics you are currently wearing
Arguably, part of the problem comes from map design. So many maps have wide ass areas that Snipers practically cream themselves as soon as they spawn

>>712515771 (OP)
so true

sniper is easy to counter, just
1) dont stand around in the open
2) flank or bombrush him
3) try to spam him so his aim flinches/he has to hide to not die

Whats funny is that the people who complain about sniper are usually pretentious soldier and demoman mains, who think theyre above everyone else despite their class literally not requiring any aim or brain.