* ends your game dev career *

>can't commit to anything without instant gratification
cattle

>>712593792
>Can't commit to anything without instant gratification
He's just like me fr...

I wonder if the people who say this have even tried programming with C++. It's not that hard, it's just different from their little C# snippets that they like to plug into Unity. Granted there are a lot of features that you may or may not be expected to use if you end up working on a professional team, but if you're making games then you're used to learning new things.

And I say this as someone who prefers to just use C. What do you think? Have you tried to use C++?

>C is 40+ years old
>C++ is 30+ years old
>still no B

>>712594221
It's not hard... unless you're debugging templates lol. It just has very autistic stuff like move semantics and compile-time programming

>>712594221
The syntax is not hard, it is just a pain in the ass to write and maintain projects with it if you're doing anything above a CLI. Useful libraries/frameworks/API aren't preinstalled or are more difficult to install than python, Java, or CSharp.

It's easier if you are using Linux's CLI, can create makefiles that are easier to use than bloaded ides
>build:
> g++ -Wall -std=c++17 -I"./libs/" src/*.cpp -lSDL2 -lSDL2_image -lSDL2_ttf -llua5.3 -o gameengine;
>run:
> ./gameengine
>clean:
> rm gameegnine

but for Windows it is convoluted shit

>>712593792
What do you mean?

The worst part of C/C++ isn't even the language, it's the build system. Once you build a project beyond a single file, it becomes a cluster fuck as you need to create a build system to compile and link your files. And there's so many different build systems with their own quirks. Every C/C++ project is built differently. You have to relearn it every time.

>ends your gaming dev career

>>712595595
Makefiles + linux make it easy, but you're right about it sucking

.lib files are prefixed with -l

>>712594838
Well. You can run makefiles on Windows. And if something is truly giving you trouble, due to some syntax thing that's different on windows or lack of available tools or something, you can make a command run a windows batch file instead by including something like this in your makefile:

ifeq ($(OS),Windows_NT)
div_make_and_run:
tools\\win_tools\\win_div_make_and_run.bat $(BUILDFILE)
endif

Batch file looking something like this:
set BUILDFILE=%1

clear
make -j14
"%BUILDFILE%"

Granted, the above commands should just run from a makefile through powershell in windows, but it's an example.

>>712596246
>>712594838
Basically I installed make for powershell, and some other tools that I'm used to on Linux and Mac. The result is that I can have a makefile which executes different commands depending on what OS I'm building from. I think it's more flexible to do that than it is to have to use an IDE on Windows and then something different on Linux or Mac.

>>712593238 (OP)
Lol minecraft bedrock edition is coded in c++ and it looks like dogshit keep coping faggots

* filters majority of "developers" *

>>712593238 (OP)
i work for a triple A game with one of the oldest C++ codebases in existence, and i don't know any c++, luckily i just do tools/dev ops projects in C# and golang, whenever i look at the actual game's code i'm like "whoa, i'm retarded"

>>712595595
Maybe I'm just so used to it that I no longer see it is a problem. But I don't work on other peoples' projects, only my own. So the build system is made in a way that's intuitive for me to understand.

>>712594221
yeah, I learned C first, then C++, then finally C#.
I like C++ the best, but that's what I use the most.

>>712593238 (OP)
You need more assets than just a programming language to make a video game. You can't be insane enough to make an entire video game from scratch in a programming language.

If you use Unity it is like 90% using Unity's free scene editor, and Unity's built in tools, and like 10% of it is actual coding, the programming language is not that important for making video games unless you are crazy enough to make your own engine which will take u 30 years lol.

>>712596771
In summary.
I've made video games before and I don't think the programming for making a video game is really that deep unless you are doing everything from scratch. So the language doesn't matter lol.

>>712594221
C++ is just C but more modern.
It is object-oriented, unlike C, and it has "string" unlike C, it's just C but more modernized lol.

>>712596771
>crazy enough to make your own engine which will take u 30 years lol
You're kinda just projecting your own incompetence onto everyone else. The truth is that it's never been easier to make your own engine or some kind of hybrid that plugs something like Raylib into your project for things like graphics rendering and input collection. And it gets even easier when you recognize that ChatGPT and similar tools are essentially Google 2.0, where you can not only type in what you want to learn but also ask it questions about the search results in a way that's easy for you to understand.

It's a little ridiculous to pretend that making a game without using Unity is some kind of insane Herculean effort when there is so much free info available online and lots of tools that they didn't have back then. Hate to use this phrase because it's so overused, but people have been making games from scratch since before you were even born and now it's even easier to do that without having to use Unity because we are standing on the shoulders of giants so to speak.

>>712594539
There is a B and it sucks. Ironically D is ok. Zig is the next real game dev saver though.

>>712597189
I guess it's because I make games for fun, if it's your job then maybe yeah you have the time for it lol.

>>712597189
>>712596771
>>712597287
And I'm not saying that everyone should make their own engine, I'm just saying that it's not this impossible task that internet people pretend that is, mostly because they're speaking from a place of ignorance and haven't even tried, and are just repeating some youtube video guy or reddit post.

>>712597189
Yep just the fact that they were making games from scratch decades ago with far less resources shows how spoiled we are for choice. If you just want to plug in C# snippets into Unity then fine, but don't then pretend that people are insane master wizards just because they took the time to learn what's going on under the hood.

>>712596596
Vector math is lame and done for you with libraries. Graphics is actual BS just because OpenGL is ass.

>>712596720
It's something no one ever teaches when learning C/C++ but is so integral to it. You have to really understand how files are compiled to truly understand it. It's not directly part of the language, but it surrounds it.

>>712597345
>>712597568
But I have made and published many games before though. I do it for free as a hobby though and I don't have a lot of time for it. Why would I significantly increase the amount of work making an entire engine for one game? I work really fast and if you use an engine like Unity or Unreal or GameMaker then the programming is very minimal because you are just programming the game, but if you make your own engine you are programming the game and the engine. Maybe 30 years is an exaggeration but to me it is just an extra step that I don't feel like doing because I have no free time usually. Lol.

>>712594221
Pointer arithmetics and memory allocation are just too weird for zoomers mind.

>>712597590
All my homies hate opengl real nibbas use directx

But eh you don't even technically need a library for vector math if you know which operations you're going to need. At that point it becomes a simple choice: Which one is more complicated, me trying to link the library into my project, or just writing the few simple functions I need into the project myself.

>>712597685
Nobody is telling you to do anything regarding how to make your game, it's just this weird defensive attitude that people like you have towards making a game without Unity that I find annoying. Like you're personally offended if someone else doesn't use Unity.

opengl is too hard

>>712597761
For math or physics I'm more likely to copy paste functions from someone's github repo than I am to import their library into my project lol

>>712597859
That's right.
Lol.

>>712597909
It's such ass I hate it. If you used to program games in the 80s or 90s then it was a lot easier to draw pixels on the screen. Now you have to mess around with all this convoluted crap before you get anything on the screen.

>>712597108
> C++ is just C but more modern.
That’s… one way to put it, I guess.
Templates are great, thought. But over the years, I’ve come to largely prefer C over C++.

>>712598013
Fixed function was bad and if you think it was good, you didn't do much graphics because the shader method makes it so much easier and better even if there is more prep work.

>>712598223
Okay. I didn't do any programming back then. I just repeated something I heard Jonathan Blow say. Lol

https://youtu.be/rXvDYrSJJfU?si=WITSDohgNAlLyxgW

>>712593238 (OP)
* saves you from a game dev career *

Back when I first learned of OOP, I asked, wait, isn't a Singleton just a global variable with extra steps? Why? I still don't know why.

>>712593238 (OP)
Yes but not in the way you're implying - I've gotten so used to C++ that other languages feel like an absolute chore to use. C# isn't too bad but god damn do I love the absolute power of C++ but it's made me entirely unable to break into the games industry since nobody is hiring to write it anymore.
>>712594221
I find C a little tough to use since it lacks the nice little language features of C++ that make interfaces idiot-proof. I like the more generic things in C++ that don't cost performance (and, in many cases, end up faster than C).
>>712597702
Two problems here: First I'm a zoomer and don't have any issues with these, and second modern C++ won't have you dealing directly with either point arithmetic or memory allocation. Unless you count the stack I guess.

>>712597189
There’s never even been a circa 2000s AAA game made by a solo dev within Unreal or Unity, let alone on a custom made engine. It’s not impossible but it is certainly would take decades with no assistance whatsoever.

>>712597909
Try raylib

>>712593238 (OP)
Don't worry bro, factorio guy will fix it(maybe)

>>712598401
Is that the soulja boi guy

>>712598002
kek

>>712598783
>literally just a layer above opengl

>>712598783
can I really call myself a programmer if I can't do it myself with pure SDL and opengl

>>712599221
You could say, the perfect layer.

>>712598401
Jai will be the future.

>>712599272
Raylib is kinda just another solution like SDL. Except SDL I think provides a little more and is more professional and battle tested, so I actually migrated one of my projects from raylib to SDL at one point when input and audio things were giving me trouble, hah

>>712594221
i've just learned python. well the first half of murach's python programming anyway. is it better to learn C++ or C# if I want to make games?

I learned python for reasons unrelated to vidya or ai

>>712599772
I'm not the best person to ask because I have only used rudimentary python in a university project. However my limited understanding is that python is an interpreted language, which is generally slower than compiled languages like C/C++ because the C/C++ code is pre-compiled into machine code that the CPU can understand before the dev ships the binary to the end users. Whereas with python it has to interpret the python code to machine instructions in real time while the program is running, which is going to cause your program to be slower.

Is that right? Anyone who actually uses python wanna chime in?

>>712599998
Yeah that's about right. If a developer needs to get around the slow speed of Python they usually just implement the slowest segments in C/C++ and call it from Python.

>>712594221
C++ is awesome to go to if you actually understand programming fundies (not coding/scripting fundies).
If you go to C++ from Python, you will be scared and confused.
If you go to C++ from C, you will feel like an all-powerful god.

When people start learning programming, they should ALWAYS start with C and branch from there. Starting with Python kneecaps your development hard.

>>712599772
>>712599998
Python is believe it or not used in actual games in the same way Lua is used for scripting. It's like how in Bethesda games you can use Papyrus. Ren'Py is also a popular engine to use with Python. Pygame is legit for amateurs too. There is an engine in development called UPBGE that uses python then there's Panda3D.

>>712593238 (OP)
C++ is a matter of "it's not because you can that you should".
The end goal should be to make the code as readable as possible, instead of making a pile of stupid tricks that looks like absolute dogshit.

>>712600448
Yeah I figured there were things for python. I even used Ren'Py in the past. Of course I'm just too set in my ways to switch from C. Why switch when I got a good thing going that works well?

>>712600501
no one cares how the code reads you dope
only that it runs well

>>712593238 (OP)
I never found C++ hard, used it when I was in college all the time for programming. Used to shit on Visual Basic too until I finally used it for rapid prototyping with .Net
Then again I am a psycho that really enjoyed Assembly (for classes and fun) and Brainfuck (for whiteboarding).

There were no real jobs when I graduated in 2004, should have networked harder (or rather had family in the field or computer related stuff like those that did get programming jobs).

Never really cared about game development though, just wanted a non gaming programming job.

Instead I ended up doing IT and networking...what could have been, oh well.

Anyway thanks for reading my blog.

>>712600448
oh neat. i was only aware of the Pygame module and Ren'Py game engine because of DDLC

>>712600591
Yeah, I like C a lot. It's comfy and nothing weird. Pretty much always works no matter your environment.

>>712600417
This. I always see people have an extremely hard time learning new programming concepts when all they know is python, it does so much shit for them for the sake of being high level that they end up working with it by memorization or just plain AI abuse

>>712593238 (OP)
Nope, C++ is the only language I know basically.

>>712600609
Unless you're doing a software renderer or a some sort of super AI or anything like that, it will run well enough because it's C++ on a fucking fast CPU.
All that is in stake is your time on this planet, and the shittier is your code, the more time you will spend programming the game.

>>712594221
for some people it's obviously hard. my coworker often passes data structures with heap-allocateed values even when it should just be a const-&.
imagine making a copy of 32,000 strings every single frame.

>>712593238 (OP)
I'm getting a software engineering degree just so I can start my game dev career ackshually

>>712600864
>imagine making a copy of 32,000 strings every single frame.
Dude I was looking through some older shit that I wrote and was using in a current project and I was literally doing just that. Had to rewrite the whole thing it pissed me off lol

>>712599772
You learn python for small tools or utilities. It's useful for scripting in blender too. It's not just the poor performance, dynamically typed langs like Python or JavaScript don't scale well for large projects.
All these loosy goosy easy peasy languages let you get away with bad practices like variable shadowing or type mismatches.
It may sound counterintuitive but you want your language to be more strict as your project grows.
And object-oriented programming is still King for games contrary to what retards who've never shipped a game say. C++ is practically the only OOP language with manual memory management. Both are essential for (good) games. But if you're only want to make mediocre games you can get away with c#.
Rust and Zig will be the future in some areas but fall short in gaming again because of lacking inheritance/oop.

>>712601016
>going to work for Nintendo
Good goal.

The one language that separates the White Man from the jeet beasts....

>>712601563
How widely is this thing used in game development?

>>712601563
>logo is something created by a black man
>White man

>get high on coke
>prompt all my code with claude
>the code is a black box
>no idea how it works
>call myself a game dev
I won.

>>712601907
>get drunk
>read your post
>call you the n word
I won

>>712601907
Fair game, we've already seen it's able to pump out games like DOOM, platformers and some rudimentary stuff like tic-tac-toe, chess, etc.

>>712601942
where the n word @ blud

* saves your game dev career *

>>712602194
I said it out loud

>>712602273
*kusogedev career
Nothing wrong with that btw

>>712602273
The new hotness is RPG Maker Unite and RPG Maker With.

>>712602381
my project is gonna be the next lisa / black souls
just wait

>>712601042
>You learn python for small tools or utilities
yup. i learned it to make my own program to help with art block because having an AI do it for me kept pissing me off. it took too long and it could only make basic shit, and not the needlessly overly complex idea i have in my mind.

>It's useful for scripting in blender too
this is news to me. what kind of things can it do in blender?

>But if you're only want to make mediocre games you can get away with c#
i kinda want to make mediocre games for a while. right now i'm mostly concerned with making a playable game and learning the game engine

Dude fuck programming, asset creation is the real filter. If you don't already know how to draw or even worse make 3d models/animate them if you're making a 3d game, then be prepared to spend literally YEARS just getting good at that shit before you can even think about making a game.

Even now after I have gotten "better" at it to the point where I think I can make my own 2d games, it's still such a chore to make assets for things like buildings and decorations that I don't give two shits about but I know are necessary to get just right because I need to nail the environments and level design or it will look incoherent or out of place.

>>712600417
all STEM scares and confuses me

>>712603081
You forgot the part where you're a 6 figure software developer that pays for assets.

>>712603310
Dude I'm a broke hobo who has been unemployed for over a year because I hate job interviews

programming and art are whatever for me
pic rel tho? https://youtu.be/ltXzAWItTxI
u are either born with it or not

>>712603310
Nah that might've been the case years ago but software developers are lucky to even come close to six figures nowadays, most I know are barely scratching $50k

Repeat after me — silently, in your mind — with every word I give you.
No hesitation.
“I am a sissy.”
Say it again.
“I am a sissy.”
[low, slow, calm, give time to repeat after each line]
“Good girls obey.”
“Good girls listen.”
“Good girls do what they’re told.”
“Good girls don’t resist.”
"Good girls submit to wuwa."
That’s it. Let them settle in your mind like soft petals.

>>712603081
yeah. assets are the most time consuming and also important things in game development. if you can't make decent stuff then no matter how good you are programming, nobody will buy your shit

>>712603523
I've never tried but I'm really considering (and dreading) learning music because I'm too autistic to seek out some other music guy to hire.

>>712603523
Man I am certainly not born with it, but I do enjoy shitting out some poop-boops.
https://voca.ro/12QHXsaRVWKS

It's more fun than you would think if you have ever jammed out to your favorite songs before. My songs are definitely not perfect but it's easier than you might think to come up with a melody, and putting it into notes in FL Studio is easy if you watch a tutorial video. The advanced stuff that actually makes it sound good with regards to music theory and instrument selection, and also things like mixing and mastering, well, I don't know how to do that either.

>>712594221
No it sucks ass. It's a disgusting house that jack built pile of slop, outdated.

I haven't used C++ since college. Remember it being pretty similar to java except the syntax for references is less intuitive and you had to manually delete objects.

>>712604061
Oh you're just being dramatic.

>>712604091
>you had to manually delete objects
Not if you use destructors.

>>712593238 (OP)
But I have a degree in C++?

>>712604128
No I'm not. Classes were a mistake.

>>712604091
Is this true? You couldn't just create objects on the stack?

>>712603310
Literally what I do. Game dev is my hobby I spend my disposable income on asset packs and hiring artists.

>>712604245
finish your game jonathan

>>712604275
You can and do. You only have to manually delete things (delete keyword) for an object if you manually allocated heap memory (new keyword) in its constructor or something. In which case you can just use a destructor so it cleans up its shit when it goes out of scope.

>>712595731
quarter onions are better than having your gumball locked

>>712596737
why did you skip C+?

>>712598582
it's more an anti pattern. but the extra encapsulation allows you to enforce non trivial initialization for example. in any case dont use it. there are better ways.

>>712604674
HolyC is too powerful for most programmers.

the worst part are those fucking C spergs in every thread. ultra slow deprecated shit for embedded (soon to be deprecated too) because they got filtered by the simples meta programming.
>but bruuuuh its fast because Im like using pointers bruuuuh

>>712597631
the thing is, "how files are compiled" is probably the easy part especially since includes are still in the overwhelming majority, in a vacuum anyway
it's when you wanna stitch together more than a just a couple of source files in the same directory that you get the obvious desire to abstract everything into a more general system
then you've got to consider ad-hoc configure files, cmake, and a the tantalizing allure of killing yourself

>>712599272
do you want to make games or impress fellow transbians on discord with millionth toy opengl project

>>712593238 (OP)
It's literally over for CS. I am from electronics and recently had to work with CS people, they have all been turned into lobotomized bots who resort to chatgpt for everything. They can't even read a language reference manual. It's appalling.

>>712593238 (OP)

Has anyone tried developing a game using a smartphone like a Samsung Galaxy or using an iPad for coding and programming a game?

I used to be an expert? Or mildly good at both C and C++
Then I entered the workforce as a low level engineer (because nowhere else was hiring and I was actually shit, turns out)
Python is all I know now. 5 years of deleting my learning from University.

>>712604926
>embedded
>ever deprecated
What is this guy going on? The problems with C++ are that it's archaic and built on things it should just abandon and start fresh. C lacks those parts, but C's problem is it's just outdated as hell because even C has parts it needs to abandon but can't without being something that isn't C.

>>712606770
If Microsoft says it's deprecated then it is

>>712605992
Yes, it's possible. Raylib can do it and I believe Godot can do it too. As in compiling, obviously you can write code in any text editor.

>>712606868
Microsoft says a lot of things, and does a lot of things, most of them are bad. Windows 11 for example

>>712605992
I tried using an ipad in college, there are some apps you can download that come with compilers or you can SSH into a real computer. But in the end I gave up and just used a real laptop.

>>712605832
The future is bleak and not just for CS but society in general. People are literally cheering for this by the way, bragging about not knowing what they're doing. I don't know why people think it's a positive that you don't know what you're doing and are just relying on "The AI" to do everything for you. That's how you get a failure of transfer-of-knowledge between generations to happen, and collapses of civilizations.

>>712607030
The hate for Windows 11 is mostly overblown and melodramatic, considering it's literally the exact same as Windows 10. Granted I hate Windows 10, but if you don't, then you have no room to complain about Windows 11 since it's mostly the same crap.

>>712605992
you can just tap out the code, put it onto a git repo then ssh to a shitty 1-5 dollar linux vps somewhere, get everything you need from the package manager, pull the repo, compile it and shit it back out onto a repo repeatedly.

>>712607127
>>712606947

Cool, thanks. Saw some snippets of videos by YouTubers who went and tried using mobile devices like iPad for their coding/programming. So I was wondering if it was possible to code a mobile game, at least an interactive fiction game that is mostly text, maybe some pictures. If that doesn't work, I'll just save up for one of those used Lenovo ThinkPad laptops since they should be cheap.

>>712607324
its not overblown or melodramatic, the tpm shit and the way they didn't just drop it completely and instead say shit is unsupported doesn't bode well for the future.
that is to go with them more aggressively forcing updates/undoing changes to your system.

>>712607376
Well, you can use an Android phone or tablet because those operating systems expose the file system to the user and you can install command line tools rather easily. Ipads and iOS in general is too locked down to be useful for anything other than turning it into a drawing tablet.

>>712607515
The things you just mentioned were complaints I had about Windows 10, weird. Guess I had less tolerance for it than most people, which is why the rest of you are only now complaining as it gets worse.

In particular, Windows has had the worst update mechanism for a long time now and I'm tired of people pretending that the way updates are installed on Windows was ever good.

>>712607127
>People are literally cheering for this by the way, bragging about not knowing what they're doing
I am surprised that people trust whatever the LLMs shit out instantly without even a hint of skepticism. It highlights how critical thinking of most people is flawed and AI is just the last nail in the coffin to destroy any chance of recovery.

>>712607637
Window updates just work when in IT.

>>712607740
>IT
*indian noises*

Why does modern windows leak so much memory if you leave it on too long? Isn't it written in C++ or something? Seems like a bad language for games...

>>712607324
I can't drag shit into command prompt and have it execute
I can't right click for context menu,I now have to shift right click
I have to refresh for files to show up after copy pasting from remote desktop or after extracting an archive
You don't even have a job
You'll find so many fucking roadblocks, and shit that used to work fine in 7 and 10 but now does not in 11. I can't even list more because after 4 or 5 issues I just reverted to 10, fuck the corporate and their Microsoft penis fellation

>>712607324
>It's the same
Behead yourself with a chainsaw, fucking jeetnigger

>>712607892
>You don't even have a job
And proud of it!

>>712607891
>talking about memory leak
>OS
>then talks about games
Huh? Memory leak is purely a developer made problem. Most languages protect against it. Usually it happens because you can do memory tricks to do things quicker, but that results in manual memory management.

>>712593238 (OP)
you can just find a dude to do the programming for your game. duh

>>712607994
I mean the OS programmers are probably smarter than game programmers, right? So if they can't make it work then the game programmers are going to have it even worse right?

>>712607951
>Windows 10 is good I swear
Nah

C++ isn't even hard. data structures exist in every single language. just use the ones you need and learn them accordingly.

>>712595595
building your program logically is the core skill here and goes beyond coding. it involves outlining stuff in an architectural manner via UML diagrams so that the headache of building goes away.

>>712608352
>UML diagrams
Actual schizo shit so that programmers can LARP as real engineers

>>712608634
visualizing the design of a complex system is a fundamental skill for any real engineer. don't be daft. you'd only act like this if you've never been trusted with a multi-million dollar project before.

>>712593238 (OP)
uuoooooooohhh im calling a malloc without a free

>>712608803
Nobody even understands the schizo babble you're spewing except you, get help.

>>712608829
ARE YOU GONNA FREE THAT MEMORY? ARE YOU GONNA FREE THAT MEMORY???

>>712608829
>he doesn't know you don't need to do this anymore

>>712608829
All the memory will get freed when the program stops anyway.

>>712598401
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP

>>712608849
>understanding systems = schizo babble
so you're a midwit. gotcha.

I'm a CSfag, art filters me

>>712609031
There are no systems here. You're just making things up because you think it makes you look smart. You're tilting at windmills.

Seriously and not trying to be mean, get help. My cousin was like you and he ended up institutionalized because he couldn't stop seeing programming every where he went and he thought everything he and everyone around him did was programmed somehow.

>>712609151
your attempt at gaslighting is pathetic given how short our conversation was. you need to work on developing it further but i guess you lack the attention span. if you think building something coherently is being "institutionalized" then you're not even equipped to argue with me in the first place, as i've already stated. nobody works on a project without outlining the architecture. go ahead, try and tell me how that's "schizo". you're just a liability to anyone who wants to do anything with even a modicum of scope or depth. your anecdotal bullshit about your brother is irrelevant here and probably indicative of some underlying mental issues on your part.

I'm gonna love seeing you try and spin this yarn. if you have any self respect you'll just give up.

>>712609324
Dude I didn't even read all that but no you are not a real engineer.

Real engineers have to obtain real certifications and follow strict industry standards and legal codes because peoples' lives are at stake. Nothing like that exists in the software industry which is why planes crash due to bad software.

>>712609098
Art is just a science of its own, don't fall for the creativity meme if all you want to be is a drone. Anyone can be taught to be a drone, you think third world animators are somehow just better at the arts than you?

>>712593238 (OP)
Nooooooo
I NEED garbage collection
What do you mean I have to manage memory by myself

>>712609443
Not him but you're retarded and he is wasting his time trying to talk some sense into you.

>>712609443
>he doesn't know if they can prove it then software devs are liable

>>712609535
>not him (actually him by the way)
Okay Mr. Totally Not Him, you're still not a real engineer by the way

>>712609509
>Muh memory
Not even close to a tenth of everything going on when doing serious deep work. Programmers today have no deep knowledge.

https://youtu.be/Z0SJNkzOiq4?si=86cYijtU3KK9v2xD

>>712609443
And there it is. you just outed yourself completely as being underequipped to argue. first off, being a "real engineer" as you so idiotically put it, has nothing to do with what type of primary discipline you're in. It's a matter of being accredited as a Proffesional Engineer which is
1. a separate task in of itself
2. done after you've obtained your degree in w/e engineering field, which lets you sign off on projects to approve of their safety standards.

This applies to ALL fields and all sectors. It does not fucking matter if it's Electrical, Mechanics, Software. And guess what? You still need to know how to deal with various diagrams outlining the architecture of all systems if you're going to sign off on them.

You exposed yourself and you've wasted my time long enough. You're not getting another reply from me since you're clearly not even remotely familiar with this topic.

>>712593238 (OP)
ENTER

nothing personell kid

>>712609871
>GDScript allows anyone and everyone to dev

>>712609805
>wah wah wah *stomps feet and cries and shit his pants*
Didn't read by the way, but you know I'm right

>>712609805
>And there it is.
Apparently this isn't the first time you've been told that you're not a real engineer :)

>>712609913
>copes by ignoring the truth in front of him and replaces it with fantasy
i accept your concession btw

>>712609686
why are you posting this lolcow

>>712600864
>imagine making a copy of 32,000 strings every single frame.
This is the problem with trying to explain the need to optimise to modern coders. 32000 sounds like a lot, and yes it's a total fucking waste of cpu cycles, but I strongly suspect if you fixed it you wouldn't even see a pixel of difference in your profiler's visualiser. Hell, compared to all the buffer copies that are going on inside system libraries and drivers out of pure security necessity, those heap allocated strings are a drop in the bucket. Literally just drawing an object on the screen will involve many separate bits of code packing, unpacking and repacking the data over and over and copying it to the next thing in the chain that does it all again as it passes from your code, to the engine, to the graphics subsystem to the driver, to the GPU and then back into your code when it hits the shaders. PCs are *insanely* sub-optimal, but people like the flexibility and the security so we live with it.

>>712610132
He's based

>>712593238 (OP)
*ends your artist career*

>>712593792
More like unwilling to commit without knowing if it's worth it and if you would get any return in an Economy where everything is temporary, ruthless and can go sideways for you (homelessness) in a snap

there are rust bindings for pretty much every good library now. everyones new engine is being written in rust, if they're not just using unreal

>>712610780
So what are you trying to say, that everyone should just use rust or am I misunderstanding your point

>>712610187
he made like 2 shitty meme games. what a waste of air

>>712610780
>rust
dead tranny language

>>712611124
You hated the witness that much? What the hell man :0

>>712610882
i think its worth learning. im not going to underestimate the staying power of all existing computer software being built in C and C++ but rust is starting to replace things and its taking more market share for new projects. all the while, C++ is languishing, it's so bloated with bureaucracy that you won't see any new feature get added until 12 years after its initial proposal

>>712611337
Hmm yeah I should learn rust too, it can't be a bad thing

>>712593238 (OP)
Actually, I'm white.

>>712599029
Can't fix perfection. Seethe and dilate.

c++ is based and the best language in the world. it filters all non whites and brainletts and has multiple massive skill checks. but once you invested your 20000 hours there is nothing better. and you will make a lot of money.

>>712595795
Not even close

>>712610780
rust's language design makes it really painful to write something quick and test it out before deciding to commit/throw away

TEMPLE OS

>>712611871
Good. Quick code is unsafe code and safety should be number one priority.

>>712611842
>>712595795
meant for
>>712595731

>>712610187
He made a mario clone then he made a puzzle game that could have been done in unity in a few months instead of 7 years and now he's working on a sokoban clone that also could have been done in unity except he's been working at it for 10+ years and the game is still not done. And then he has the audacity to tell people to write everything from scratch and in C. Same shit with casey. While people using engines like godot/unity/unreal actually get shit done.

>>712612307
>And in C
Isn't he like anti-C or something? That's why he's making his own programming language because he's crazy

>>712612307
>While people using engines like godot/unity/unreal actually get shit done.
This is the funniest shit I've ever seen, watching you compare Jonathan Blow to the losers in agdg or the gamedev /v/ threads lmao

I mean yeah technically you can say whatever he's doing is taking a really long time to show results. But it's still hilarious the picture you're unintentionally painting, like you're somehow proud of the little itchio shovelwares you make and trying to portray that as "getting shit done." That will never not be funny.

>>712612350
You don't even know the beginning of it. He would rip out GPU libraries and OS and make his own if he had the manpower. The man is suppressed in his vision of a utopia.

>>712612350
>believes he knows better
>actually sticks to his word and does it
>this is somehow crazy
This is why CS is so dead.

>>712612464
>>712612307
Yeah getting SHIT done, keyword being shit lol

Idk all my favorite indie games have turned out to have been made with custom engines it seems. I wonder what the correlation is there. Maybe the kind of person who's willing to use a custom engine is more creative or something.

>>712612695
I mean crazy in the joking sense like he's super motivated, a man on a mission you know that kind of thing, not like actually crazy like the guy ITT who think he's a real engineer and writes schizo babble that no one reads >>712609805

>>712612713
Post your favorite indie games so we can find the connection.

>>712612169
For most use cases when you know the feature you want yes. But for games quick code lets you get user feedback on the design earlier which might be preferable to spending more time on safe code that ends up not being used

>>712612772
Nah I got a better idea, post the "shit" that you "got done" with Unity or whatever. I love seeing unskilled non-creative retards like you act arrogant about your generic asset flips that run like dogshit, and then getting your asses handed to you when you actually post them.

>>712594221
Writing C++ is easy.
Reading somebody else's C++ is not possible.

Anon, your "boomer shooter" that's supposed to look it was made in the 90s requires 16GB of ram to run and has stuttering issues

>>712612464
which parts of his game could not have been done in a game engine? you just want to feel superior because you have a sad life just like jon. while small teams (<3 people) out there create cult classic indie games like hollow knight and signalis. At the end of the day the truth is is that programming is a tiny part of game development. art, music, voice acting, game design, level design, writing, 3D modelling, retopology, sfx, vfx etc... has nothing to do with programming and the programming part is just writing a few gameplay scripts for your chosen engine

>>712612835
It's like you're somehow proud of the pile of shit that's called itch.io. Like what the fuck level of delusion do you need to be on to believe you are in any way superior to anyone else when this is the shit you're a part of lol.

>>712612941
>>712612995

Never ever act superior to anyone else ever again if the first words out of your mouth are "just use Unity because I'm too stupid to understand anything else "

"oh and by the way look at my dogshit asset flip on itchio, coming soon to steam by the way wishlist soon! #indiedev #indiegame #gamedev"

if there'a anyone creating itch.io trash it's the "no-engine" retards putting some extra code on top of sdl or raylib and calling it their own engine, making flappy bird clones and other primitive 2d shit with programmer art.

>I'm too stupid to use anything besides Unity therefore everyone else is
These are the people giving you anonymous advice

>>712613095
This will never stop being funny, this shit just made my night lol.
>GUYS LOOK IM GETTING SHIT DONE!!! *itchio asset flip* Heehee I'm so much smarter than everyone else :)

>>712613223
engines allow people to create their dream game. there are many really good games made by a single person who's not even a developer by trade. like the dev of hollowbody or greenfield.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L99G_DsG2bw

saying that using an engine is wrong because it makes things easier is like saying using an operating system is wrong because it makes things easier. you are just a sad sack of shit jacking off to memory arenas and texture buffers

>>712613447
looks gay but good for him

How you can look down on other people for not using Unity while having results as bad as yours, how do you even survive that level of cognitive dissonance in your own life lol.

>>712613447
Literally no one is saying "using an engine is wrong because it makes things easier." That's just some gay faggot strawman you made up because you want to feel good about being retarded. This is genuinely the funniest thing that you think you can look down on other people for not using Unity while having results as bad as yours. Who the hell are you to look down on other people for making games in a different way when all you have ever made was asset fliip Unity garbage that you're too ashamed to even post.

Why are unityjeets so vehemently anti-everything-else? Dunning-Kruger or actual retardation?

>>712612884
why the fuck wouldnt it be possible?
I waas never formally educated on C++ and I have never found code I couldnt break down and read.
just look up what the parts you dont understand do, dumbfuck

>>712610380
programming is 21st century literacy

>>712594221
Only time I tried C++ was for a class that was required for my IT degree and I fucking hated it so much I made a solemn oath that if I ever meet Bjarne Stroustrup I will immediately beat him to death on the spot regardless of where I am or who else is present at the time.

>solo devs with engines:
>create amazing games way beyond their means if instead they spent 10+ years shittily recreating unreal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8nF-O_fHr0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtwPMBdgPGE

>no engine retards:
>look guys, i made a raylib tetris clone
>look guys, i'm working on a very efficient minecraft clone that will never be done
>look guys, my name is casey muratori and it took me 10+ years to make a "game" (not finished) that could have been done in unity in a weekend

what are you faggots so proud of is beyond me. jon blowjob, casey and randy are all perfect proofs that you will either keep making 2d shit or never finish your ambitious game

>>712613861
if you want to run around a hundred different layers of abstraction
be my guest

>>712613798
>>712613710
no one cares that you are not using an engine, you were the ones who started shitting on people for using game engines and now you can't take it when someone attacks back

>>712613798
Game engines and programming languages are religious crusades.

>>712613886
>look guys, i made a raylib tetris clone
that's me

>>712613931
Would it have been any different if it were written in C#?

>>712613963
You are literally the only person who cares. That’s why you can’t stop bragging about how retarded and incompetent you are as if it’s some kind of positive thing.

Like OH NO GUYS, making a game engine is impossible! No one can ever do that, never mind that they have been doing that for decades! Never mind that it has never been easier with all this free information available and all these crazy tools that people back then couldn’t even dream of! My small brain just can’t comprehend how anything works without unity! I must project this learned helplessness onto everyone else or my self esteem will collapse :(

>>712614069
Proof?

>>712613931
>its not possible!
>well actually it is but it might be hard
overly dramatic nigger.
people are supposed to be taught to make their shit readable for a reason.

>>712608352
UMLs are nice for communicating the structure of your program, especially to someone who might be new to the project, but it doesn't solve the headache involved in building any complex project. And by "building" we're referring to the act of compiling and linking the source code, not so much the structure of code itself.
At least there are stuff like make files that make life a bit easier, even if they've got their own quirks.

Stop fussing over programming languages and just make your game. Balatro was made in love2D and it was GOTY, no one cares.

>>712614069
post feet and tummy please!

It’s a miracle that games were even released before Unity was invented. Literally impossible.

>>712594838
imo libraries aren't really a "c++ problem", you could totally just put all the files in your project and have a simple list in the compilation files, it's just years of Windows being garbage and OS all having their own library policy that makes it fucking horrendous to plug anything in a project.

>>712593238 (OP)
The real deving begins when you refuse to learn and start making shitty round about solutions. That's when kino happens.

>>712614142
i stopped playing it because everytime i do im like "just one more game"

>>712594838
>-Wall
you for real my nigga

>>712602273
t. japanese eroge dev

>>712614135
no one said that you can't make an engine. But you are either making a game or a game engine. And you faggots trick many people into starting to write their own engine from scratch because "it's da way dude" when they just wanted to make their dream game or they just want to make games as a hobby. but you lie to them and tell them they must learn C++ to an expert level and then learn OpenGL and then learn PhD level math and then recreate Unreal and then they can make their game

>>712612169
not for prototyping.

>>712595731
quaternions are fine. Their implementation in Unity, the beginer platform of choice, is the problem. And for some reasons the Unity devs are REALLY PROUD of their disfunctional garbage, and every time you have issues it's just an infinite bukkake of "just don't do it like you want bro, do like they intented" and "o actually this one word funtion they provide doesn't work, here's my 3 page external project work around it's not their fault htey goodboy *page doesn't exist anymore*"

>>712614373
When will you add pregnancy mechanics?

>>712595595
what if i have sub folders in my src folder????

Idk it seems like internet people greatly overestimate the difficulty of making a game engine because some YouTuber told them to. They treat it like this crazy battlestar galactica project or something, but that’s because they imagine “unity” when they hear the term “game engine.” Nobody is making their own general-purpose engine like Unity, that would take forever. But writing the underlying structure for your own unique game? Totally doable and people are still doing it to this day.

Is it hard? Yeah especially if you never tried to learn about things like graphics programming before. But learning how things like graphics programming work only increases your skills and things you’re able to create. You’re able to do more things. In no way is that a negative thing.

>>712614618
Yeah, getting a rough engine going isn't all that hard, just time consuming depending on how much experience you have. However, my usual goto advice over using an existing engine or making your custom one is a simple question: Is there a feature your game needs that no existing engine provides?
Or maybe if you're making an engine for learning purposes, sure, go right ahead.

>>712614414
>But you are either making a game or a game engine
This is just a lie that you’re parroting with zero real world knowledge or experience. People are proving you wrong to this day. What’s a recent popular example that even you probably heard of? Animal Well uses a custom engine, right? He made the whole thing himself?

I guess someone forgot to tell him that he wasn’t allowed to make a game and an engine at the same time lol. He should have asked for your permission first.

>>712614764
Yeah and that’s another thing, what’s so wrong about learning how things work? All you’re doing is increasing the amount of things you are able to do and understand. Graphics programming knowledge for example has practical application even when you’re working on serious projects in Unreal. Knowing about multi threading for example is not a bad thing either.

>>712614854
How much programming experience did he have?

>>712614414
>recreate Unreal
See >>712614618
TLDR writing the underlying structure for your own unique game is nowhere near as time consuming or difficult as making a one size fits all engine like Unreal.

Your opinions on the matter come from some misinformed notions as to what an “engine” even is.

>>712615012
There's nothing wrong with it, but if you're a novice its probably going to add years to your dev time.

>>712615012
It kind of boils down to what the end goal is. A lot of people want to just make a game, and all the time you'd be spending making an engine might be better spent just learning an engine and getting to making the game part. Nothing inherently wrong with that, as plenty good games have been made that way. Just know what your goals are rather than fudging about the details, really.

>>712594221
I think people hate C++ because of the compiler.

>>712615190
Yeah and I mean no one is even saying that rolling your own engine is for everyone or that everyone should be doing it. But what’s annoying is the reverse of that: people ITT are straight up lying and saying that you “either make an engine or you make a game” and that everyone who wants to make a game should use Unity. That is just false narrative that comes from a place of ignorance as to what an engine even is.

Like dude… yeah writing your own engine is going to be hard if you never did it before. That doesn’t mean there are no benefits to owning your own tech. Quite the opposite in fact.

>>712615491
My actual dislike nowdays is just how many ways there are to do the same task, and shoot yourself in the foot.

Eh. When I used C++, I just used it like C. I don’t think I have ever once needed any of the features that come with C++. For games, to be honest I have never needed a higher layer of abstraction than using structs for objects and using functions pointers for dynamic functions calling.

>read a C++ tutorial book
>whoaaa I can make the machine read data from a file and organize it in different ways, to be recalled at will! Amazing!
>"congratulations anon, you have learned everything I have to teach, now go make your dream game!"
>yes sir, I will!
>start making the game
>I understand nothing of this
>look up a guide
>"for this function, you must program the engine to reverse the fourth dimension by a fourth of the gravity based on the theta value, so that your toon will turn in 3D space instead of warping to another timeline"
>"oops, don't forget to set the database level to majestic 12 or you'll be in big trouble later!"
>pls god help me

>>712615832
>I can make the machine read data from a file
>”congratulations anon, you have learned everything I have to teach, now go make your dream game!"
I think you should have refunded whatever book told you that

>>712615894
Thankfully, I pirated it. Who'd pay for books in this day and age?

>>712615514
Nobody should ever use Jewnity for anything.
Most people who decide "I want to make a game" are going to have limited, or no, programming experience. The "tech" they create isn't going to be anything special or innovative or unique, at least not for a long time. For this sort of person it is pretty much a choice between making a game or making an engine, because they are going to have to spend the foreseeable future focused on learning all the nitty gritty details of creating a functioning game engine from scratch. And depending on the kind of game they want to make, creating an engine can range from "difficult task" to "monumental task." If youre just trying to make 2D indieplatformslop, that is going to be relatively simple compared to writing a modern 3D renderer.

>>712593238 (OP)
What's a good place to start learning how to code if I wanna make my own vidya?

funnily enough Mortal shell was made by a very small team almost exclusively with BP, plus they made a 4h behind the scenes video with Epic where they explain their development process:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yLq7jlVCAY

>>712615953
Well. There are several aspects going on here. For example, what an “engine” even is depends on what you’re trying to make. An “engine” means something different to every unique game, so the 2d indieplatformslop isn’t going to take very much work to get some pixels on the screen compared to the 3d renderer with ray tracing and crazy shader and particle effects. And that’s before you take into account the common practice of gluing in already existing components such as renderers into your engine. Video games are almost never truly made “from scratch” as you’re probably using something like SDL to easily handle window and context creation in a way that’s cross platform. Or maybe you’re going a few step above and using monogame for some important components, but still defining your own game object system and data for whatever reason. Just this idea that people have that there are only two extremes: using Unity or doing everything from scratch, is incorrect.

>>712615982
ChatGPT is essentially Google 2.0. Try asking it that question, but phrased in such a way like “teach me to program if I want to make a game” and then continue asking questions. It’s a much more efficient version of the Google searches we used to have to do for beginner rabbit holes like these.

>>712615767
you are literally retarded (c script kiddie)

>>712616451
I never said I was smart. But saying retarded is just being mean spirited.

>>712593238 (OP)
C++ isn't even hard to learn.

>>712616523
It’s impossible.

>>712616523
You can learn the fundamentals in a week. But to make anything worthwhile with it, you need university-level understanding of math and physics and 5+ years of experience in game development.

>>712615982
I wish I knew a way to learn C++ from scratch that was focused on game development. Most C++ courses seem geared towards backend jeetslop

you know you have unlocked "decent" level c++ skills when your code looks like the std code

std::aids

Still better than libc

>>712615767
>write C, but with references
>don't typedef my structs
>save as .cpp
What else could you possibly need?

>>712593238 (OP)
It's retards using 4 MB for a single picture file shooting themselves in the foot by not knowing what a byte is and how could possibly "allocate" it.

>>712617194
What do you mean? What can I do with my 4mb picture besides the obvious using a smaller picture file?

>>712616661
>courses
Just download a book that teaches the basics and work through the exercises. Then learn Unreal tutorials if you want to get started fast or dig into OpenGL if you’re interested in the lower level stuff like graphics programming.

>>712597240
Zig is clownshoes with good marketing that likes how it makes them feel clever rather than how it helps them achieve things. Once you actually start using it and dealing with it's problems you'll notice how Kelley accepts the most retarded feature requests (while having outstanding bugs like treating hard tabs as errors while other whitespace is okay), adopted LLVM casting rules which are retarded along with retarded rust shit like having to change unused var names to _ for it to stop throwing errors/warnings at you.
If anyone has a shot i'd say Jai assuming it manages to live up to the hype from the beta users and Odin seems to have a good rep among the people who use it as a C++ replacement as well.

>>712594221
C++ filtered me hard at the beginning, but as I worked in gamedev for a bit and gained an understanding for how things work, it was a lot easier.

My professor did an ass job at explaining pointers, when it's literally just a forced reference type assignment.

>>712617076

aren't c++ games easier to hack because it uses pointers or some shit and rust doesn't have that or something?

>>712604926
>>712606770
Cs problems aren't that it's outdated. It's that it's got a bunch of weird shit it never cleaned up like integer promotion . vs -> and crap like that on top of having one of the worst standard libs known to man. A lot of whining about the language comes from people who don't know how to write things well in it by using tagged unions, intrusive linked lists, custom allocators etc.
C++ meanwhile has something like 30 years of language-ruining cruft that keeps getting added on-top by the C++ committee on the regular. (the main thing it has over C is operator/function overloading without compiler extensions and very slightly more hygienic metaprogramming that still sucks)

>>712607324
lmao you have to literally install explorer patcher and winaero tweaker to get back normal taskbars and normal rightclick behavior. It's fucked.

>>712619282
i got used to the new shit pretty fast

>>712608352
UML is a fucking retarded management idea. "Hurr software people sketch out things using a whiteboard to clarify their own ideas, let's formalize it into an onerous OOP-based language because people need more obstructions to communicate effectively".
The only place where it would even remotely make sense is relational database schema because it models their interactions, but even then no one actually uses it because it's a fucking retarded way to work.

>>712594221
I have tried compiling an existing C++ Project not written by me.
c# is plug & play

>>712619461
You are dumb, you have no idea how it feels to see people draw things without a general guideline to abide by. UML does away with all of those problems because it works and has accounted for all the bizarre formatting you can think of.

>>712593238 (OP)
>RPGMaker allows anyone to make rpgs without coding
>still no equivalent for 3rd person action games

The closest is a template in Unity but you still have to code everything outside the template instead of rpgmaker where you can just drag and drop your art into a game.

>>712619520
>UML does away with all of those problems
You're the kind of waste of space who demands powerpoint presentations for standup meetings.
No fucktard. UML helps no one.

>>712619129
>C has just some weird shit but else it is ok
I guess you didnt meet the endboss yet
https://jadlevesque.github.io/PPMP-Iceberg/

and for the rest. lol, the only thing you can blame c++ for is that they fucked up reflection so badly.

>>712619461
>people need more obstructions to communicate effectively
Yes. People have too many idiosyncrasies to be accommodated on a project involving hundreds of people without standardizing how a diagram is written out. You might think it should be obvious how one diagram is interpreted, but it isn't universal by default. This is exasperated the moment you deal with multiple areas of expertise that use different diagram styles, be it flow charts, dependencies, sequencing, or state.

>>712614618
Ok how hard is to make a cross platform deterministic multiplayer engine with rigid body physics, 3d sound, dynamic lighting and 100% destructible terrain?

>>712619753
No one writes software contracts in UML at FAANGs you undergraduate douchebag.

>>712615832
Eventually you'll find that the only real teacher is the official documentation for whatever libraries you use.

>>712619076
No, C++ makes it easer to make mistakes that open the door of a computer to external hackers. But cheaters already control the machine they are cheating on.

>>712619904
>official documentation
More like actual implementation. Specs always lie.

>>712619903
Dunning-Kruger at its finest.

I wish the chinese would start hiring actual programmers for their indie unity games.
There's no reason why their 2D, text & static art games should have minute long loading times.

I LOVE FORTH

>>712619954
I guess I've just gotten lucky.

>>712620013
Maybe in your part of Bangalore they teach UML as something useful but in actual programming jobs you'd rightly be considered a waste of space middle-management drone for telling people to use it.
Much like scrum masters, UI/UX designers, tech evangelists and other fake-ass nepo positions.

>>712620130
not only Dunning-Kruger, but a schizo. yikes.

>>712615894
It sounds like about the level of wisdom that /v/ shares every day when discussing game dev.

>>712613861
>>712614173
In fairness OOP:ed C++ is fucking horrendous to read and parse. It's even worse if they buy into dogma like SOLID or fads like microservices and clean code.
Try hooking up a regular-ass C-style procedural program to a debugger like raddebugger or remedybg, particularly one that makes sparse to no use of libraries, and then do the same to an OOP:ed one and you'll see what I mean.
It's kind of like reading a regular book vs reading a CYOA that jumps all over the place except it has fake references, fake pages that look like they're doing something but just tell you to go to another page along with mid-sentence fakeouts that tell you to go read other books. It just gets worse the more standard libs/boost/template shit you use too.

>>712619789
Not hard if you don't mind it looks like Minecraft. Cross platform is just dealing with networks.
Rigid body physics is a simple library in most cases, you can just use Havok.
3D sound is simple, library too, but the hard work is doing the sounds.
Dynamic lighting is on by default in graphics and I don't mean memetracing.
100% destructible terrain is so vague that it could mean textures and models don't matter, only that anything can be manipulated which is simple CSG work.

>>712615894
>I can make the machine read data from a file
This is basically all you need for a game anyways.

>>712615767
3D math gets really verbose in C over C++ unless you're using gcc extensions. (which you won't be if you're compiling for windows like 99% of games)
That's about it imo. There's nothing else that C++ gives for game programming specific stuff that's useful.
For certain other kind of software templates can be really useful in some situations but they also suck bad compared to other languages options so that's only really a plus over C.
C++ is also WORSE at reflection than C is because parsing C code is doable but C++ requires asinine workarounds to do a limited subset of it.

>>712620379
>C++ is fucking horrendous to read and parse
incorrect and you are a lucky nigger that hasnt had to deal with java.

>>712621278
Java is obviously worse because it enforces retarded OOP shit. Anyone who thinks defaulting to getters and setters are a good idea has shoe-size IQ.
I'm saying "modern" OOP:ed C++ is worse than C-style procedural C++ codebases and by a large margin.

C++ really isn't hard. Nobody expects you to know every detail of it. You aren't writing standard library implementations, so no need to get too creative.
The one time i had to use C# at work, I was spooked. Suddenly, I had no clear concept of object lifetimes. Very disorienting. But I also didn't spend much time delving into it.

>>712621432
the goose hunt you are lamenting is only an issue when you are unused to the organizational style of the project.
it should be a one time barrier.

if it ISNT then you are blaming C++ for the coders being retarded niggers.
skill issue.

>>712621501
>the goose hunt you are lamenting is only an issue when you are unused to the organizational style of the project.
No, it's an issue whenever you actually try to understand what the code is doing by running it instead of guessing by the source code.
Again try it. One is a step by step that shows exactly what happens and the other is a step into a function that steps into a library that steps into some OS specific shit and back again ten times before it actually does the thing it's supposed to.
That's before even looking into the assembly which is always a gazillion times worse with "modern" garbage, because modern programmers can't read assembly half the time.
Retards love it because it makes them feel like they're doing something by spending their time on organizing the code instead of actually coding.

>>712621708
Once again, you are whining about people being shit at coding but pretending its the codebases fault.

Why are you hooking up the program to an external debugger instead of using inbuilt debugging tools?
Why don't you have documentation of what the code is doing already?
Because the coder was SHIT.

>>712594838
>but for Windows it is convoluted shit
because on windows you don't fuck around with command line.

Build and run:
>use VS
>press one button to (build) and debug (F5)
>easily manage external library headers and imports for project
and im dealing with raw DX + rest of w32 API

clean:
>clean solution / project

>>712595731
meh, do math parts right once and then use them, not that world ending. It gets fun after you need to rearrange data so you can batch run vector calculations, instead of calling them one by one.
also DirectXMath (and DirectXTK/SimpleMath) is a thing:
https://github.com/Microsoft/DirectXMath
https://github.com/Microsoft/DirectXTK/wiki/SimpleMath

How do I get C++ working on Windows? It's been decades. Why the fuck doesn't this piece of shit just work like it should?

>>712621850
>but pretending its the codebases fault.
It is. If you use modern features you are shitting up the codebase. This is very obvious if you actually read the asm.
>Why are you hooking up the program to an external debugger instead of using inbuilt debugging tools?
Because they're limited and hardly ever tells you about the overarching code outside of subsystems. What kind of dumb question is that?
>Why don't you have documentation of what the code is doing already?
oh lol. Either you're extremely junior or a non-coder if you actually think documentation is worth a damn.

>>712622146
>If you use modern features
if you use them WRONG
>Because they're limited
thats because the retard MADE them limited and did document
>think documentation is worth a damn.
meaning you are a retard who cant even document your own shit
opinion discarded into the trash where it belongs

>erm, profeshioonals dont DOCUMENT, silly!
people who allow this thinking should be shot in the kneecap.

>>712621998
>because on windows you don't fuck around with command line.
You do. They even started adding default bat files to the vs build tools directory because it became so common to avoid all of ms's IDE garbagefire by just calling vcvarsall after the handmade crowd popularized it.
MSDN even has an article on it since two years back.

>>712622226
Actual coders worth a damn don't think docs are trustworthy no.
And you're obviously a faggot student. Hurrdurr just write a better debugger that takes into account every single C++ retardation better than commercial ones do.

>>712622321
why would I do that?
I just need to write messages for what section of code is doing what so I know what is going on.

>>712622373
Yeah, because you're the only owner of the code and you're definitely taking into account all the issues that led to Meier getting a career writing entire books of modern C++ pitfalls before eventually retiring since it was getting too stupid even for him.
Try disassembling your own code and learn what it actually does.

>>712622226
NTA but you very seldomly get enough time to actually document stuff. And that is even if you are lying to Bossman about how long things take (which you always should).
And half-maintained documentation is worse than no documentation, because you cannot trust it.
I only get to write proper docs if I do it on my own time during my vacation.

>>712622530
now you are complaining about working with or for retards and blaming the code on it.

>>712622560
same as above. you are working for retards.

>>712622593
>you are working for retards.
Yeah, so do most people.
It's called being a manager. I'm afraid it's an unfixable condition.

>>712593238 (OP)
C++ is useful if you're autistic and want to do efficient memory manipulation and stuff.
If you program at a high level (like most "creative" people who just make games in their free time) it's overkill

>>712622690
then why do you blame the codebase for not magically compensating for this?
if your boss is forcing you to rely on MEMORY for how everything fucking works, then that is your bosses fault.

>>712622242
and not single time have i had need to call those by hand on command line/ powershell when using said MS garbagefire, it just werks. Any more shitty propaganda points from someone that clearly haven't even touched VS ever? (or got filtered by GUI hard)

>>712594838
>>712596246
why the fuck do programmers insist on having everything work via command line in 2025
it's so goddamn autistic and unintuitive, and makes the subject more annoying to approach for laymen for no good reason that isn't random gatekeeping

>>712622793
I did not blame anything on anyone. I don't even blame my bosses for being retards.
I'm not the other guy you were talking to.

>>712622793
You'd love Rust. They cream themselves blaming reality for not fitting into their religious paradigm.

>>712622950
fair enough.
my question stands for him, then.

because there is gonna be a limit to how much you can make a code inherently talk to other things without bloating it.

>>712622972
people using the code wrong because they are shit is exactly that.
C++ gave people the freedom to write worse code than ever before and humanity couldn't handle the power.
rust is just a promising new kid that hasnt been proven but thinks its hot shit.

>>712622826
Because non-cmd options always end up being fucking terrible. Visual Studio is 50x slower than just running it off the command line and that's lowballing it.
This isn't some gui or POSIX autism either. Fact is software made after the 00s just suck immensely.

>>712623239
I understand the mentality, the issue is that it's applied as the default baseline level of programming. When i went into CS university, they taught us programming that way. Using Linux and command line.
Like I'm sorry, that's just objectively the worst way to teach people how to program. It would be good to teach kids how to do it a few years down the line, not from the goddamn start

>>712599772
You can grab godot and start making your own slop already, gdscript is close enough to python

>>712623078
>C++ gave people the freedom to write worse code than ever before
Yeah by using any modern feature.

What does the C stand for

>>712625184
Computer

>>712625184
the letter after B

>>712593238 (OP)
Ngl, pointers filtered me hard

>>712625802
A thing that points to something. It's in the name.

>>712625802
Most courses teach you pointers way before you actually need them and are truly able to comprehend what the point of them is.
Courses in general should have more practical projects that force you to do things "the hard way", and then teach you the solution in the next lesson.

>>712625802
people always get confused by abstractions when the only thing a cpu can do is load memory into register, write memory back, and perform operations on the memory in the register. it's literally all information for the compiler to optimize better

>>712625802
did an it course in school and noped out at recursive functions and loops
idk i guess im just stupid

>>712626401
An how does the cpu know what memory to load? Well that address that the pointer points to

>>712626695
ldr r0, adr_var1

>>712626551
Recursion is one of those things college professors love to sperg on about because it feels like magic but has very little use-case in real software.
They still even teach it for parsers when you practically always want a pratt parser instead.

>>712593792
I don't commit without guaranteed return on investment.

>>712622804
lmao there are people whose entire business plans are letting people avoid VS like jetbrains and the 10x guy.

>>712626829
adr_var1 = *var1

>>712628086
now you learned what an abstraction is. bravo.

>>712628348
What do you think adr_var1 is? There is no register like that, it's the memory address value just like a pointer is the memory address value

>>712617968
Literally none of those zig problems you mentioned are noteworthy.
There are genuine problems with the language but if you think having to use spaces instead of tabs or discarding unused variables is a significant thing, you're probably retarded.

>>712628528
assembly translates directly to machine code. your pointer/ store most likely doesnt even exist and is optimized away.

I have some groundbreaking ideas for videogames but I don't know how to do anything like coding or art. Do you think I can open a gaming studio and just be the idea CEO?

>>712599029
Sutter already made C++2 though.

>>712593238 (OP)
I've never even had a game dev career, what are you talking about? I write everything in Rust or Go anyway.

>>712593238 (OP)
>>712630010 (Me)
Besides, you can write a good game in C# anyway, projects that use suboptimal technologies and have dogshit code succeed all the time

>>712610780
Rust has more game engines than games.

>>712627752
And everyone that use windows i know that went for jetbrains ide soon returned to VS and instead used jetbrains plugins there or dumped all jetbrains crap all together. So its hot only for retarded hipsters on windows, but maybe it has market share on pingu.

>>712593238 (OP)
>Revives your gaming career

>>712610780
>everyones new engine is being written in rust
https://loglog.games/blog/leaving-rust-gamedev/

>>712603845
It's definitely listenable. not bad

>>712625802
Pointers are the same thing as array indices, the array is the entire memory of your program.
The value of a pointer is a number of bytes that give you a position in memory, and you can put any data type in that position.
You can't lose or destroy a pointer, it's just a numeric value. You can save it to a variable, make copies of it, put them in an array of pointers, add or subtract them to skip N elements.
You can get the data back as another type by casting it to a different pointer type. Pointer math uses the size of the pointer type you chose (adding 1 will add the size of 1 element).
Most importantly, you don't have to use pointers at all, you can just declare global arrays of everything you're going to need and use normal integer indices to access them.

>>712600417
That's why I'm learning C at the moment, despite saying other otherwise, every resource regarding C++ assumes on some level some knowledge of C. Also implementing Data Structures in C gives you more intuition on how they work and why. Also pointers are better explained in any C book than any C++ I've seen.

What's been surprising me so far is how simple and elegant C is, there generally isn't that much to learn once you understand pointers. Once I say an example by function of a function involving pointers and how to implement a dynamic array or arraylist, it clicked.

Python is a nice language where things just work because of the sheer volume of resources available, but I feel this makes everything else get taken for granted.

>>712593238 (OP)
sorry wrong pic

>>712614362
Yes, just ignore the shit that really doesnt bother you? Why WOULD you ignore warnings?

>>712614503
Very well put, fuck that entire community