This is a screenshot from sonic heroes. In it, 4 distinct paths to the next area can be seen. This is not a rarity in this game, you could take a similar screenshot in numerous other levels. SA1 and 2 levels are not like this. Yet, can you guess which of these three games is considered bad?

first you have to explain why numerous paths of progression is axiomatically better than a couple paths of progression

But Sonic Heroes doesn't have Chao Garden and I heard only zoomers like it therefore it's bad

>>712599814 (OP)
>Yet, can you guess which of these three games is considered bad?
Idk, maybe its the one where the bosses are complete dogshit and is focused on a battle system that is just spamming jump or attack

>>712599814 (OP)
Sonic Heroes isnt considered bad because of the level design, it's considered bad because of the incredibly jank gameplay
rail transfers hadnt been figured out, collision fallthrough, everything about Team Chaotix's chapter, etc etc

>>712599814 (OP)
>Yet, can you guess which of these three games is considered bad?
the one that controls like slippery dog shit and is designed like pic related except instead of shapes it's "fast" "fight" and "fly"

>Selling three difficulty settings as different story modes

>>712600092
>>712600230
"yeah i only like 1/3 of SA1/2 but they're still kino.....heroes? what?? dude the 5 second long combat encounters ruin that game! and what about chaotix!! oh lordy"

>>712599814 (OP)
the knuckles and rouge stages from sa2 have a shitload of paths. that doesn't make them good

>>712599887
Multiple paths inherently do three things primarily: allow players to tailor levels to their own preferred play styles, diversify replays, and reward players for skilled movement or a keen eye. The more paths offered, the more those traits are amplified.

>>712600326
Fundamentally how is say the homing attack any different from fly formation? You can just think of flight and power as extensions of sonic's moveset. When you see a chain of enemies to homing attack or a row of rings for you to light speed dash through do you think of that as "putting the x peg into the x hole" gameplay?

>>712599814 (OP)
>Yet, can you guess which of these three games is considered bad?
Probably the one with
>the most slippery-feeling controls
>constant, shallow combat encounters
>levels that go one for way too long
>constant, pointless character chatter
>some of the absolute worst bosses in the series
>some of the worst examples of blatant padding in the series
Oh, what do you know, That's Heroes.

>>712599814 (OP)
The alternate paths aren't interesting and the games movement mechanics are gimped compared to SA1 and 2, making these paths very basic 'hold forward till you reach the end' gameplay.

>>712602161
You literally just described SA1 and 2. Oh yeah jumping onto this rail next to the main path is so interesting. Oh yeah spindash jumping 2 feet past this part is so engaging.

>>712600529
>yeah i only like 1/3 of SA1/2 but they're still kino
by that logic only 1/4th of heroes is "kino" in comparison, since team sonic is the standard experience, team amy is too easy, team dark is too tedious, and team chaotix is just shit
so it's still the worst

Say what you want, I don't care:
Heroes has the most compact and solid 3D Sonic OST

>>712602453
Heroes is more like 1.5/4th kino. Most team dark stages are better than team sonic's because they changed a lot of paths to let you stay as shadow more often. But some levels are just too long and shitty in both so team rose's versions end up being best.
The ideal run of this game is an amalgamation of the three.

>>712602458
Nah SA2 has it beat. There's legit only like 3 songs in SA2 that aren't good.

>>712600981
>allow players to tailor levels to their own preferred play styles
not inherit to multiple paths and also not even present in the screenshot you posted. iirc each path has you just spam tails
>diversify replays
see above. its the same action but a different room
>reward players for skilled movement or a keen eye
if the reward is "additional gameplay" it's hardly an incentive nor are you even aware if you're going the intended path. doom figured this out with secrets
>>712601240
>how is say the homing attack any different from fly formation
for one, you can fucking fly
for two, it wont kill you because the shit code that looks for the object closest to the center and not closest to you in the frustum doesn't think you're tying to lock on to an enemy too far away
>When you see a chain of enemies to homing attack or a row of rings for you to light speed dash through do you think of that as "putting the x peg into the x hole" gameplay?
Yea because right after that is "unbreakable rock" or "really tall rock" or "flag pole to spin up". There is no choice there. You just pick the character they wanted you to pick and move on.

>>712599814 (OP)
wtf am I looking at

>>712599814 (OP)
Heroes, the one that sucks.

>>712602872
They are solid, but a lot of tracks are very samey and interchangeable.
Heroes has a very distinct OST for it's fewer zones, except for the rail canyon ptsd shit. Fuck those two.

Casino Park alone clears most of SA2
But to each his own

reminder that sonic heroes was an attempt at appealing to a wider audience. just in case anyone wants to know WHY it was so buggy and broken.

slightly more clear image

>>712602884
Firstly, yes it is is inherent to multiple paths, though not exclusive. In the simplest example, you want to go fast? You take the shortest route. You want to do some platforming, you do the slower path. In this screenshot 2 of the paths utilize the speed formation, two utilize flight, one of the flight paths is longer but gives the player items. If you don't like using the flight formation you go through the speed paths. If you like getting a high score you go through the slower flight path.
Secondly, you've got it backwards. It's the same room but different actions. And that is a meaningful distinction. When you're replaying the same level multiple times offering players different ways to accomplish the same thing staves off boredom and encourages trying out different things each time. This isn't even exclusive to physical paths in a level, it's the reason why people like when games have different character builds or alternate dialogue choices, etc.
Lastly, the rewards are not only additional gameplay. Some paths save time. Some paths give you items. Not that additional gameplay is itself even a bad incentive. Do you not like the game you sat down to play? Sometimes it is enjoyable to just get more.

>>712599814 (OP)
I can't even tell what's going on, 3d sonic was always a mistake

>>712599814 (OP)
>This is not a rarity in this game
Yes it is.

>>712599814 (OP)
Person defending a shit Sonic game is also autistic.

>>712599814 (OP)
>Four shit paths
vs
>One or two paths that are actually fun
I dunno about you but I'll take the latter every single time

>>712603698
It's this. The pulley above the ramp takes you the platform with the springs and you use the springs to get to the topmost platform.
The pulley above the wall takes you to the topmost platform and you use that if you didn't grab the first pulley or took the slower flight path.
>>712604086
It's not. I can think of other areas just like this like ocean palace's turtle section or egg fleet's floating rails section. There's literally another part in this same level like this.

>>712599814 (OP)
nostalgia blinds the sa2 brain. dont bother trying to get these tasteless retards to stay consistent with what they say, they dont know what true speed is

>it has more paths
But it plays worse than its predecessors. That's why people don't like it as much.

Any questions?

>>712604362
Yellow and green are basically the same path except one goes left and one goes right, both of which use the most unfun form in the game

>>712604391
this, true speed is holding a button to boost instead of having any actual momentum

>>712604391
True speed is uh swapping to flight formation and trying to bounce off an enemy to get enough height to s̶l̶o̶w̶l̶y̶ expertly fly over the mandatory fight gate

>>712604471
No, the yellow path has red item balloons outside of the frame. It's an item path, you use it if you want to get a higher score or a 1-up.

>>712599814 (OP)
This is a screenshot from sonic heroes. In it, 4 very similar teams will play the same map. This is not a rarity in this game, it is every level.

>>712604475
True though? Unleashed is literally the fastest sonic has ever been.

>>712604648
>The paths are the same except this one is longer and has some rings and maybe a 1 up on it
They are the same path, and they both consist of the same booster copy pasted multiple times in the air

I was genuinely shocked when i came to the internet and found out Heroes was HATED by the community.
Sure it had jank but the level design, music and all the characters were great.

Woooooaaaaa my head's spinning!!!!!

>choose 4 distinct paths that are all worse to play than the 1/2 from SA 1/2
Hmm

>>712604758
You do realize this kind of path structure has been used in literally every single sonic game, right? There are even paths in sonic 1 that are exactly like this. Not every path has to be a time save or utilize different platforming styles.

>>712604721
your posting style is getting more recognizable

>>712605049
You are mentally ill and need professional help.

>>712604975
In other sonic games the paths are actual paths and not just springs floating in the air

>>712604835
Was he really an eight year old Mexican boy and son of one of the directors?

>>712605092
as a boostfag you're the last person who gets to call anyone else mentally ill

>>712605118
There is literally a path in green hill zone act 1 where you use a series of floating enemies as springs.

I think heroes technically has tons of room for player expression but nobody likes the rocket accel thing

>>712599814 (OP)
Heroes has slippery controls
SA1 and 2 do not

sometimes I think the sonic fanbase champions ignorance because they don't want to actually consider why a sonic game might not be liked

>>712600356
At least it's basically the limit of things wrong with Sonic Heroes, if we don't talk cut content.

Here I am in city escape, critically acclaimed SA2 level. Many have said in this thread that the paths in this game are better even if they are lesser in number. This is the most open section of this stage. What do we have here? Yes, the yellow and green paths are actually the same thing but left and right this time. What difference in playstyle accommodation is there? Yes, yes, I can run straight or jump once, titillating.

>>712605597
Because the
>Every Sonic game has been an '06 tier fuck up ESPECIALLY the ones that came out before it that people liked up until it came out and I will have a complete fucking meltdown if I have to even approach admitting there's a reason the series has been around for almost 35 fucking years despite not having a console to prop it up.
Community are the patron saints of objective opinions

>>712599814 (OP)
Dude this is a rarity in sonic Heroes too
Bingo highway and flip castle come to mind of linear levels, even this example from power plant is like one section of the entire thing

>>712605284
Those lead to a path, they are not the entire path

>>712605991
"Not a rarity" =/= "is seen every 2 minutes". You can find sections like this in more levels than not. This is not even the only section like this in power plant. That does not mean every single level is like this or every section is like this.

>>712599814 (OP)
>cherry pick one design aspect
Non-linearity alone does not save a shit game from being a shit game

>>712599814 (OP)
Sonic Heroes controls feel like ass.
Sonic Adventure 2 controls feel like a dream.
SA2 can get away with simple level design cause the simple act of moving Sonic around feels good.
Heroes has a lot of good level design but it's hard to appreciate it when you're actively fighting the controls just to get anything done.

It doesn't matter if there's 4 paths if the paths suck compared to 1 good path. The opposite is obviously also true.
It matters not the quantity, but the quality.

I love how everyone always neglects to mention how unwieldy sonic is at full speed or on non-flat terrain in the adventure games when they talk about the beautiful control. No matter how many years you've played the game for, you're not running down windy valley without bumping into the sides or doing pyramid cave's tubes without flailing all over the place.

>>712605956
>Every Sonic game has been an '06 tier fuck up
I find it hilarious, since I recall sonic heroes being just as janky and broken as '06, especially if you played a version on anything but the gamecube. I find it even more hilarious that every release of heroes had a different set of bugs from the other due to sonic team not knowing anything about the new engine.

>>712607014
Admittedly that is a little bit of a problem with the ports, but there's a mod for it.
It controls way better.

>>712608014
>I find it hilarious, since I recall sonic heroes being just as janky and broken as '06
Actual mental illness

>>712608018
Why do adventurefags always use this cope about the ports being the problem? These issues exist in the original dreamcast versions too and the only mods that would fix this would be mods that tweak sonic's sensitivity at which point it's not even the original control.
The adventure games did have better control but sonic still moves like a spaz in them. There is literally no official 3D sonic game with ideal control.

>opinion from someone who never played it
and ignored.

An artificial hedgehog uses the real the emeralds and a real hedgehog uses an artificial emerald.

At their first meeting in San Francisco, Sonic felt as if he were staring into a dark mirror of himself, the fake hedgehog. Later, when they met in Green Forest/White Jungle, Shadow turns the tables, accusing Sonic of being the pale reflection of himself, the ultimate lifeform. Finally, we come to this scene, where Sonic has just used Chaos Control to warp out of the exploding capsule with a "fake" Chaos Emerald, a technique he learned by watching Shadow, the "fake hedgehog," perform it with a "real" one. They learn here that neither of them was the faker, and both of them were the real deal. After all, the "fake emerald" was indistinguishable from the real one because it had the same wavelength and properties.

>You never cease to surprise me blue hedgehog. I thought that capsule you were in exploded in space.
>[Starts jogging slowly] You know what I can say... I die hard! [Camera pans to the fake Emerald] You actually saved me, you know.
>It was a Chaos Emerald, wasn't it? But, there's no way you could have activated the Chaos Control using an Emerald that's fake. [Sonic and Shadow start to run faster] So, there's more to you than just looking like me. What are you anyway?
>What you see is what you get! Just a guy that loves adventure! I'm Sonic the Hedgehog!
>I see. But you know, I can't let you live! Your adventuring days are coming to an end!

You can feel he's for real, he wants to kill Sonic.
The situation is desperate, he needs to settle this with his newfound rival as soon as possible, and then go back to the Control Room, to fulfill Maria's "wish".

There was something special about them both finally reaching (what they thought was) the end.

This is where Sonic's writing peaked.

>>712608230
>Why do adventurefags always use this cope about the ports being the problem?
Because the ports have issues, usually the list of them you're looking up to try sate your mental illness about a game you've never played but are compelled to sperg the fuck out about.

>>712607014
>pyramid cave's tubes without flailing all over the place.
Nigga you really wanna go down this route?

>>712608361
The original versions have issues too you fuckwit. You can't hide behind "muh ports" every time someone brings one up.

>>712608585
I mean I'm not really obliged to try and level with a low functioning retard having a meltdown about games he hasn't played but I'm here regardless.

>>712608403
>>712607014
SA2 and Heroes had the exact same devs

Stop fighting

>>712607014
>two small sections in singular levels that aren't even in the same game
vs
>every character controls like shit on every type of terrain found in every single level
Kinda threw the baby out with the bath water there huh?

>>712608635
Have YOU played them? Sonic is sensitive as fuck, that's the ENTIRE reason he controls so well at normal speeds. He goes exactly where you point the stick. Great! Until you're moving too fast or on terrain that wants to push him around. I have NEVER seen a single person go through windy valley's last part without bumping into the walls, dreamcast version or otherwise.
>>712608403
>>712608737
Yeah like I said there's no ideal control in any official 3D sonic game. Not even that hard to do since stuff like utopia exists. Sega team is just a mess.

>>712608812
>I have NEVER seen a
>seen
See it's shit like this why I immediately chalk people who whine about sonic games at this point up as completely and irreparably mentally ill

>>712608865
If I met you in real life I would actually stomp your head into a curb.

>>712609094
Only good post in this thread.

>3Dfags fighting over last place again.
Damn it feels good to be a Classic Enjoyer.

>>712609094
Yes yes, I know, you're going to make me in Soul Calibur 3 and beat me up for saying sonic isn't bad, Chrischan

>>712604248
This, multipath fags are just closet open world fags. Give me the best tailored experience.

>>712609179
When ign said sonic was never good they were only partially wrong. Sonic 1 and 2 are massively overrated. CD flat out isn't even good. There's literally only 1 seriously good classic game, 3&K.

>>712609303
>multipath fags are just closet open world fags
open world slop sells

>>712600326
this argument is so disingenuous when shit like zelda and persona gets praised for this kind of design. not to mention, what the hell do you think games are? theyre all about putting the correct shape in the right hole you dumb fuck. gamers are so fucking retarded you all piss me off

>>712609628
I mean your first issue there was assuming he actually likes games.

>>712609628
cry more

>>712609620
>sells
Sadly

>>712609620
>3&k sold less than a third of 1
Wow, it was a lot less popular than I thought.

>Yet, can you guess which of these three games is considered bad?
probably the one that sucks ass and is unironically less enjoyable than something like sonic 06

>>712610661
Modern fanbase has shifted the paradigm to "3&K is le best" when everyone back in the day knew 2 was the best.

where's the fog homes? where's the volumetric lighting?

>>712600356
sex

>>712610661
>>712610746
3&K got way fewer dedicated re-releases.

>>712610698
Sonic 06 is actually good though. When it works anyway. The levels are what heroes is trying to do but without different formations and with actual movement tech (gems), plus the combat sections (sonic and silver's anyway) are half the length and frequency of heroes'. There's a reason everyone jerks off all the fan remakes.

>>712605956
source on this?

>>712610661
>pack in sales
anon...

>>712609620
>mania only sold 1m
what the fuck????

>>712610772
>where's the fog homes? where's the volumetric lighting?

Only on Dreamcast

>>712611308
Yeah turns out classictards are a minority and everyone agrees modern sonic is more interesting.

Shadow the Hedgehog is the best sonic game btw

Heroes and Shadow are equally shit

>>712599925
I'm not a zoomer and I've never liked the daycare simulator and always get annoyed when I accidentally pick up the chao key and have to go through loading zones to exit the garden I didn't want to go to.

>>712611559
I mean you're right in that a key flaw they share is that they expect you to replay the game a bunch of times.
Although I'd be hard pressed to say whether shadow or heroes does it worse.
You gotta play Westopolis 21 times if you wanna play every stage, but Heroes you've gotta play minor variations on a bunch a stages 3 times.
Hards to say which is worse.

>>712599814 (OP)
I replayed Sonic Heroes just a couple days ago and it's somehow better and worse than how I remembered it.

>>712611559
now that's some cope

>>712611374
That or the chart like many metrics on the internet is just straight up wrong.
I'm pretty sure steam alone Mania clocked in around ~1m gamers.

>>712611308
1 million is just the last number they gave for sales, they said it hit a million at some point within the year it released and then never gave an updated number. It definitely sold more than that but nobody knows how much.

>characters are tied to difficulty settings
always hated this shit, glad modern games dropped this nonsense