Thread 712789992

Would a real-life Bioshock "Rapture City" work?

Why is it all about kids?

>>712789992 (OP)
Freedomism on paper is still retarded

>>712789992 (OP)
Will it be stuffed to the gills with child raping jew murderers & subversive paddies like in the game?
If so yes, thats a recipe for success.

>>712790036
Major tenet of control and the reclamation of it from traumatized abuse victims. Most will spend their entire life abusing just to feel like they've wrested control back from the abusers who ruined their lives, and the cycle goes on.

>>712789992 (OP)
Wtf I love anarchism now

>>712789992 (OP)
Walt Disney's Epcot was a colossal failure

>>712790036
because the only counter weight they have to anarcho capitalism is "do you really want kids to have consent to work? that means consent to sex aswell pedo!!" like as if kids can't have simple lemonade stands/cookie sales already

>>712790216
that cow? me.

>>712789992 (OP)
look into charter cities

it'll devolve into slavery, of course

>>712791638
This cow? Me.

>>712789992 (OP)
It didn't even work in Bioshock.

>don't pay taxes
>now you pay subscriptions to use basic formerly-public assets like roads and pavements
>so now "your money" is still paying "for things I don't use" but they'll throw you in a for-profit prison to work off your debt if you dare drive to the supermarket without paying

>>712789992 (OP)
>all of the in-practice section
Those all already exist in non-anarcho-capitalism, so this argument falls flat.

>>712790036
powerful men cannot deal with their helplessness towards the interior world. money cannot buy internal understanding, a therapist cannot do the work for you, they can only bring you to the precipice. Thus the powerful, trapped inside a system forcing the worst aspects of humanity out of themselves in order to maintain their power, frustrated with entrapment inside their minds which they are humiliatingly powerless over, and after drugs/entertainment/vice show themselves unable to relieve this tension (power being a particularly inescapable mode of being), the powerful make a desperate attempt to connect to their childhood, the only memory they have of true freedom-the freedom from the imperative to be anything-through sex, the only method of connection they understand.

Nobody is gonna believe me, but fuck it.
>2014, I was 18
>using tinder
>swipe right on every female face
>match with mid 40s woman
>check her pictures
>Gadsden flag
>rifle collection
>intimidated but fuck it, desperate for female touch
>start talking
>put 'queer' in my bio because I'd heard someone say women don't want you if you're straight
>start talking to her
>she immediately asks if I want to meet up
>tell her I'm honestly kinda scared cause I'm a virgin
>she tells me she kinda likes that and asks when I want to meet
>tell her ASAP, she sends an adress
>get to her house, cologne and all
>she opens the door, grabs my collar and drags me inside
>takes me to bed and fucking rolls me like a burrito
>tells me not to worry about cumming inside because her tubes are done
>rides me so hard my head is smashing into the headboard
>after I nut she lights a cigarette and starts sharing it with me
>she says:
"This country is gonna get wild. Shits gonna go down. Queer boys like you need to know how to defend themselves, you know how to use a gun?"
>say no
>she takes me into another room
>picks out a revolver
>tells me it's double action, easy to conceal
>takes me out back to shoot beer cans in her back yard for an hour
>kisses me on the cheek and tells me to stay safe, let's me keep the gun and tells me I can come back any time
>got fucked into the headboard then shot beer cans in her yard on and off for 3 years
I don't get why libertarians get hate, man. I love them.

>>712792004
>>so now "your money" is still paying "for things I don't use"
You're clearly using the road to dirve to the supermarket, though?

TOMORROW belongs To ME

>>712789992 (OP)
This has been on my mind and I actually want to talk about it.

So I personally think that Anarco-Capitalism is genuinely the greatest system for society, and the people who promote it really are smart and know what they're talking about. The only issue is when you consider that their ideal perfect system of corporate city-states that act independently of each other will only really work until a foreign society that doesn't follow Anarco-Capitalism. Say a Communist state like China or something, decides to take advantage of the disunity and infiltrates or out-right invades the various "corporation states" You have no real unified force or militarized presence beyond possible militias and mercenary forces. Which won't last long against a centralized and organized national army.

There's a reason the Italian city states of the Renaissance didn't last long before they were all consolidated into a few larger states.

I just don't understand how people who promote Anarco-Capitalism can point out the utter insanity of Communist and Socialist utopian thinking without realizing they are also dreaming of a utopian society that will never exist. Now, reaching for the Anarco-Capitalist dream won't ever be as disastrous as the next 1000 attempts of "true Communism" that lefypol retards want. But Anarco-Capitalism can never, and will never be able to exist for long on it's own. Unless this utopian world where every nation decides to just embrace it all at the same time happens to come true (it wont.) The only way I see it working on a national scale would be if it latched onto another ideology that was sympathetic to Anarco-Capitalisms economic policies yet could still be able to unify the city states enough through shared culture and religion to draw on some form of national army should a foreign threat present itself

But I'm just some dipshit on the internet. Maybe someone who actually knows more about this has an actual answer to the question of foreign invasion.

>>712792296
How the fuck do you meet a woman like this?

>>712792328
>people don't like paying taxes because taxes pay for things they don't personally use or benefit from (read: their money pays for things for other people)
>by paying a subscription to use the roads they would still be paying to fix the roads of people other than themselves
>there is literally no system where someone can ONLY pay for the things THEY personally benefit from
Don't think about it too hard I know it's a difficult concept to understand that the selfish will never be satisfied

>>712792004
>you pay subscriptions to use
>"your money" is still paying "for things I don't use"
Which is it? Do you pay for what you use or not? Also, they throw you in prison for not paying your taxes, and you don't get to negotiate the price, or which subscription service you pay for.

>>712789992 (OP)
It didn't even work in the game.
>>712792517
Literally on the 3rd line.

we looked at american health insurance works and go "yeah we should do that with the police and firefighters too"

Socially I think I'm a libertarian. I believe in not doing anything to anyone without consent. I don't even like touching people to shake hands without being autistically told it's okay. However if you cross the line into violence, you don't get to decide how hard they hit back.
So if I throw a rock at you, and you pull a shotgun, that would be my fault. I picked a fight too big for me.
However I can't get behind the idea of no government, no taxes. I just wish the taxes were spent... differently, you know?
Like how come we can make hellfire missiles but I can't get a pothole covered without spray painting a cock around it? It's ridiculous.

>>712792531
stupid shit IN THAT EXAMPLE YOU USE THE ROADS
people dont like paying taxes because it goes to transgender surgeries in cambodia and military bases in israel, not because of the fucking road

>>712792296
>gets ridden into a concussion and given a pistol
>meanwhile I get nothing
FUCK THIS GAY EARTH

>>712792792
In a Libertarian society, what would prevent OP from happening?

>>712792365
>The only issue is when you consider that their ideal perfect system of corporate city-states that act independently of each other will only really work until a foreign society that doesn't follow Anarco-Capitalism.
Hoppeanism deals with this. You smuggled the
>Which won't last long against a centralized and organized national army.
assumption into the discussion, but it can still be dealt with on your terms.

>>712792792
>So if I throw a rock at you, and you pull a shotgun, that would be my fault. I picked a fight too big for me.
so if I pissed you off at a bar, and you punched me, and i pulled out a shotgun and blasted your fucking head off, your little giblets on the floor would be okay with that?

>>712792923
Yeah.
I don't believe in doing ANYTHING to someone else without consent. I dont like touching, I don't like being touched.

I wouldn't punch you no matter how annoying you were.

>>712792923
the end result of that example, with perfectly rational individuals (read: white) is a society where no one is ever violent and everyone treats each other with respect, because they know if I punch this random guy I could get shot in the face
thats how things used to work and thats how humanity developed

>>712793004
the people in public don't consent to seeing your grim visage. I didn't consent to your reply to my post. what now o noble soul? should I expect an apology? i'm not sure if I'd consent to it.

>>712789992 (OP)
chaz was supposed to be anarcho- look how that ended up

>>712793123
>the people in public don't consent to seeing your grim visage
they do if they go outside
this isnt that hard
>I didn't consent to your reply to my post
you did the second you posted and the rules were 'anyone can respond to this post'

>>712793106
actually the end result is a society where no one trusts each other (read: our existing society) everyone that watches evening news of random tragedies occurring to innocent people on the daily ALREADY fears that punching someone in a bar will get them shotgun blasted in the face (actually it's more like fearing getting stabbed or shot but doesn't change the point). so they hide their faces and hope no one looks at them.

>>712793123
Words aren't actions, anon.
And if you read my post you'll realise I'm not a Libertarian so... I dont know why you're so mad, but I am autistic as shit.
Have a nice day.

>>712789992 (OP)
Kowloon Wall City was close, and manyeople moved to it, in contrast to commie nations from which they fled

>>712789992 (OP)
No, it would easily be destroyed by mines or submarine sonar. And there would be minimal sunlight to grow food.

>>712793228
>>712793004
>I don't believe in doing ANYTHING to someone else without consent.

get ready to consent to me telling you your argument is shite

>>712793275
I'm not mad? you're probably right about your autism.

>>712793275
>Words aren't actions, anon.
wrong
can figure that out in like 2 seconds of thought

>>712793359
are you legitimately one of those weirdo feminists that demand a signed form of consent before you say hi to them?
consent in many situations is implied
>get ready to consent to me telling you your argument is shite
the act of posting is me giving anyone explicit consent of telling me my argument is shit

>>712793238
Completely wrong, violent crime was never lower in America as during the late 19th/early 20th century when lynching was widespread and acceptable

>>712793123
You consented to seeing other people in society when you chose to live in a society with other people. If you don't want anon to step on your property, then you don't have to consent to him being on your property, but your consent only matters to your property.

>>712793453
I am in fact mocking the idea of needing to consent to everything
>the act of posting is me giving anyone explicit consent of telling me my argument is shit
This is an implicit assumption


>>712793519
Lmao

>>712793208
Chaz was anarcho-communism, which is an oxymoron.

>>712792792
doesn't sound like you want a libertarian society, but instead you wish that the productive forces modern society has was controlled by the people, not by the ultrarich.

>>712793618
>You consented to seeing other people in society when you chose to live in a society with other people
I did not choose in fact to be born into society (THIS IS NOT A COMPLAINT)

>>712793658
>Lmao

>>712792895
>Hoppeanism deals with this. You smuggled the Which won't last long against a centralized and organized national army. assumption into the discussion, but it can still be dealt with on your terms.
I actually have just started reading Democracy the god that failed. Though I'm new to reading Hoppe so this is just an assumption that was on my mind before really getting into it.

Not trying to "smuggle" any assumptions, that's a genuine question/concern I have for the ideology. How do the city states stay unified enough to avoid getting influenced or conquered by hostile foreign powers. Like I mentioned, It's not as if it has never happened before. The Italian city states, the various free cities of the Holy Roman Empire. etc. They all seem to work great until some dickhead with a bigger stick decides to come along and put an end to it.

Though I'm still learning so if Hoppeanism really does have an answer I'll get to it eventually I suppose.

>>712793718
>You want liberty? Well, it sounds to me like you want equity. Have you considered this totalitarian ideology which kills anyone for sticking out too much?
Every time.

>>712793618
>it's not murder when we call it lynching
ok?

>>712793519
This post is genuine comedy

>>712793915
It's funny because it's true

>>712793753
1) Your choice not to kill yourself tells me otherwise. 2) This is why I disagree with the other anon. It's not that you need to consent to everything, it's that your private property is fully within your control, and nobody else's. Your consent only applies to your property, and naturally, libertarians have a complete and objective definition of property, so you can't worm your way around it this time.
>>712793824
I never said it was, but the other anon was correct that justice was more effective when it was being privately employed, which happened multiple times in our history, each with the same impressive result when given context.

>>712793442
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zu_eDxflkMc

>>712794007
>1) Your choice not to kill yourself tells me otherwise
Ah, so you consider lack of consent to be equivalent with denying consent. #metoo!

>>712793775
Good luck with your research, then. And by "smuggled" I just mean you took it as a given. Information flows more efficiently in a free market via price signals, but only if those signals are free, and if people know how to interpret them, and larger scale organizations can be made if you can create enough cultural homogeneity to back it.

>>712792280
We should try and just like build some of these guys houses where everything is oversized to emulate being a kid.
Li9ke not just large in terms of space, but like having oversized couches and chair and the like.

>>712794143
Your actions speak louder than your words, and libertarian/austrian economics(and praxeology) is all about the actions that you choose to take. I do not take the "yes means maybe, unless it means no, but no always means no, unless it means yes but you're a bigot if you assume" bullshit from feminists seriously.

>>712789992 (OP)
You do realize they would actually have to consent to these things right?

>>712792004
*lives in walkable city*
*walks on the grass*

>>712794304
Since I don't get what this post is supposed to say, I'll just clarify that all I was saying about the being born thing is that I was not given the choice to choose either yes or no. Not what I would choose, just that the choice was not available to me, like how I can't choose whether it rains or not.

>>712792365
If you want a serious answer those people would all unify and then all the people under them would work major overtime and probably pay lots of money and many people would give up their lives. Once the threat is dealt with however you don't need an authoritarian system, or even to deal with other ancaps you don't want to associate with. Its no different then having some fire in your apartment building and you helping your neighbors only to pretend you don't hear them say hello next week.

This is both right and wrong

To summarise the Non-Aggression Principle.

All human rights fall under private property rights. The first thing you own is yourself. Mind, body, speech etc. Private property rights are based on consent. Any actions that violates a persons consent in relation to their private property rights is considered an act of aggression. Rape, assault , theft and murder all aggress upon your private property rights. Which means it’s not allowed in a Ancap society.

Since the state relies on aggression to exist. Ancaps believe in abolishing the state. Taxation by its very nature aggresses upon your private promptly rights because it’s not consensual.

Rothbard, one of the leading figures in Ancap theory. Argues the age of consent should be abolished because on a individual level, people mature at different rates. So a universal stand should not exist. I find Rothbards conclusion unsatisfying. I prefer a universal standard linked with a person biological maturity. With minors subject to more protections under the non aggression principle.

There’s a lot of wild shit that does not violate the NAP. Being naked in public does not aggress upon anyone’s rights. Which means private law courts would have no grounds to punish someone. Animals do not have private priory rights, so someone could theoretically start a beastiality brothel.

The only exception is to this is covenant community's. Think of well fortified gated communities the size of entire states. If you want to live in a covenant community, you need to sign a contract. If the contract stipulates you can’t be naked in public or manufacture/spread pornography involving minors. Then the private law courts can punish you if you break the rules. Because the non aggression principle also applies to contracts. Violating a contract is an act of aggression

>>712792004

Ill take Things that Never Happened Mr. TREBEK

>>712789992 (OP)
It would end the exact same way as in the games, so you better get those magical cancer spreading plasmids and fight for the good side in the civil war!

>>712792686
That problem is unique to america. Other countries have private health insurance that works fine. Also don't act like the us government doesn't regulate their insurance companies just because their private. Once again the american can't think outside his own mind.

>>712790036
Ayn Rand and most of their thought leaders were jews

>>712792328
pretty sure his point is that he doesn't use the 99% of road he doesn't drive on, and that his subscription may be out of proportion with what he does use.

>>712792894
People who are not sexually developed not wanting to have sex.

>>712794536
As I said, libertarianism isn't, as the other anon described it, when you consent to everything that happens to you. It's when you have exclusive control over the things you own. You not explicitly consenting to being born is irrelevant, but you choosing not to stop living is a choice that's fully within your power because you own yourself.

>>712794669
Under Rothbard, if a 16 year old thinks their mentally mature enough to be an an adult. Then they are an adult. I find this reasoning ridiculous

>>712793123
>>712793228
>they do if they go outside
They actually don't. And this is why property is almost necessary for any capitalist society. The property owner(s) need to determine the baseline interaction rules and the entrants need to be informed of and consent to them.

>>712793808
It is difficult for me to imagine what "personal liberty" is enjoyed by an unemployed person, who goes about hungry, and cannot find employment. Real liberty can exist only where exploitation has been abolished, where there is no oppression of some by others, where there is no unemployment and poverty, where a man is not haunted by the fear of being tomorrow deprived of work, of home and of bread. Only in such a society is real, and not paper, personal and every other liberty possible.

>>712793284
those people have genes that make them nonviolent and nonoffending

>>712789992 (OP)
>Andrew Ryan is "le enlightened anarcho man"
>Is overthrown by some thug who sold Bibles
lol lmao

>>712793824
Murder is an unlawful killing. Lynching is just a killing where you are judge, jury and executioner. You have to commit a crime to get lynched. Whether or not your society requires due process with a separation of powers (in the criminal justice system) is another question.

>>712794945
True, but so did the chicoms

>>712794669
>linked with a person biological maturity
then its not a universal standard. Hes right that people mature at different rates and I mean that biologically not psychologically.

>>712794895
Capitalism is pure private property. It isn't "almost" necessary, it's completely necessary.
>>712794938
mistaking positive rights (aka, the benefits of wealth) for negaitve rights (aka, the thing that makes wealth possible) is a classic form of commie sophistry. You define liberty itself as exploitation, and you demand genuine exploitation to get rid of it. People aren't equal. Choosing to exist within a hierarchy isn't exploitation, and forcing people to be equal isn't liberty.

>>712794938
>where there is no unemployment and poverty
What you fail to realize is that some people just want to feed their vices, and they don't care about employment, poverty, exploitation, etc. Like how your mom sucks dicks for pennies on the dollar to buy crack cocaine. She isn't being exploited, she's in it for the love of the game.

>>712791827
source please

>dude what if there were no regulations and shiet keeping us down!
that already happened and it was bad. laws and regulations for businesses were created in response to bad things happening. are libertarians aware of this?

>>712795049
This is a question of natural law vs fiat law. In discussions of what the law ought to be, existing fiat law is irrelevant.

>>712789992 (OP)
Why does picrel imply both are bad?

If you are gonna drive on the roads I paid for you need a driver's licensee end of story.

>>712795130
And they aren't really that violent. At least in terms of committing random acts of violence and crimes even if you count the un reported ones. They really only commit atrocities they're ordered to and its usually some indirect way of killing where they human emotion is removed.

>>712790036
lgs are sexy

>>712795221
The free market regulates itself. See >>712795256

>>712792004
>your driving is not subsidized by everyone else anymore
>NOOO ITS LE HECKIN BAD

>>712795312
ok but what im telling you that we already tried that and it didn't work. all of the regulations you're complaining about were made because we tried not having any and it didn't work.

>>712794806

My knowledge of advertising and american culture makes me incredibly cynical of one's perception of free choice. Not that it can't exist, but this particular trap of perception, of believing one's entirely advertising/limbic driven impulses are one's own freely made choices is a kind of trap large swaths of the country are trapped in.
I think this kind of libertarianism, for these reasons, is a very morally convenient ideology for the powerful. my 2 cents. addicts are just bad stupid failed genetically inferior people who deserve their comeuppance and should just be culled, even though they come from every genetic background and will continue to always exist. everyone who has failed deserved it because of their freely made choices. convenient!

>>712795282
That can be arranged, if the owner of the road desires it to be so, and it will influence the traffic that road receives, along with the profits needed to maintain that policy. Let the free market decide if those regulations are worth it.
>>712795364
It worked. Wild west was not so wild.

>>712794938
Thats because you can only think in terms of the current system. Most people weren't employed before they were self sufficient or worked in cooperation with their families. Even the the economy has changed due to technology you're forgetting the fact that people could more easily access loans, or future income sharing agreements, due to the fact that the right to legally use force against them would require no credit history or collateral to guarantee a profit. The end of debtors jail was one of the biggest mistakes of the modern world and all the did was replace the debtor class with welfare leeches who are less productive to society as a whole.

>>712795364
It's hilarious when people like you use examples from 100 years ago to cover for fuck ups happening RIGHT NOW.

>>712795201
Artist is pestil

>>712795417
no it didn't. ok so i really do think that the problem here is that libertarians such as yourself are naive and ignorant of history and don't understand that a lot of bad shit happened during the industrial revolution and everything you're suggesting was already tried and didn't work

>>712795221
Libertarians believe in laws and regulations they want them to be consensual and in some cases written by the multiple parties consenting to them. People complaining about regulations in the modern day are only using that word as a shorthand.

>>712795473
it didn't work last time, why would it work this time?

>>712795473
>It's not real communism!

>>712795364
>we already tried that and it didn't work
when?

>>712792004
>>712792385
99% of anti-ancap discussion is on this level
if you're going to say it's just the status quo and you like the status quo so much why are you even against it?

it's clearly not going to be just the same things labeled differently.

>>712792686
US health insurance and health financing in general is the most regulated sector in the face of the earth, creating all sorts of perverse incentives
but again this is the level of knowledge we expect
it's so tiresome

>>712795153

Ok then les use chronological age and assume people in terms of physical maturity, roughly align with their chronological age. Even if there’s some slight variation.

>>712795514
>i think you should stop hurting other people for money
>no
i dont understand what you think would happen.

>>712795574
the 1800s. you should try learning about history before you discuss things like this

>>712790036
it looks like its from crystal cafe
they really hate perverted men

>>712795548
>>712795556
Except I'm arguing to give more freedom to the people, and you are arguing to give more power to the government.

the real answer is that reality cannot ever be reduced to a complete and orderly theory, utopia, will never exist, and that all governments function on some varying form of "try things and see what works"

>>712795417
the only real problem with this is there are tons of things important that people don't buy because they're too stupid to think ahead, like health insurance, there is a whole debacle about pre existing conditions, that wouldn't happen if people started paying for insurance the day they start working

>>712795652
do you understand that little to no regulations on businesses was something that we already tried?

>>712795387
How often have you been swayed by an advertisement to buy something you didn't want? This is a common belief among midwits that think love ISN'T an emotion BECAUSE it's a chemical reaction. It can be both. Advertisements are a great way to mind control people who want, for example, junk food, to decide they want a particular type of junk food, but can't get anyone to want junk food if they don't already want it.

>>712795683
Can you read?

>>712795159
>Choosing to exist within a hierarchy isn't exploitation
and yet the choice not to exist within a hierarchy is forcing people to do something? lol

>>712795417
Silly flowchart, I'm stuck in a loop!

>>712795641
>IDs and flags
moidbrain in full display

>>712795614
We didn't have libertarianism in the 1800s. Maybe society was more free than it was today but its certainly not what libertarians, and certainly not ancaps argue for.

>>712795702
do you not believe when i say that we already tried what you're proposing and it didn't work?

>>712795740
So you are just going to repeat the same thing again and again?

>>712795738
why didn't the free market stop monopolies from forming?
why didn't the free market stop businesses from destroying the land with pollution?
why was the working class working in dangerous, often fatal conditions and getting paid like shit?

Every governmental or economic system is fundamentally flawed because none of them account for the fact that 90% of people are completely retarded, including any people responsible for enforcing the system.

>>712795694
>How often have you been swayed by an advertisement to buy something you didn't want?
This isn't really what ads are for. Their goal is simply to exist in your mind, not tempt and lull you like a sexy lady. You do the tempting on your own, when you're hungry, where now your tableau of choices for what to eat now includes the advertised product. Our attention spans are short and limited. Being able to simply exist in one's mind is incredibly valuable real estate.
>This is a common belief among midwits that think love ISN'T an emotion BECAUSE it's a chemical reaction. It can be both.
I'm in agreement with this.

>>712795603
>assume people in terms of physical maturity, roughly align with their chronological age
why? why not just use they're actual level of biological maturity? other then the fact that a single standard autisticly appeals to you

>>712795759
either you're going the "that's not real communism" route or you don't believe me.

>>712795507
man I really gotta get on fedi sometime
that's where the good ones post nowadays

In the 38 years I've lived on this earth I've never met an intelligent libertarian.

>>712795683

Under the non-aggression principle a voluntary trade needs to involve informed consent.

For example, if a food company is selling you a product and there’s a dangerous substance inside the product. The food company needs to inform you the product contains this substance.

or else the exchange does not meet the criteria for informed consent. RFK Is trying his best to ban all the carcinogenic substances companies put in our food. In an Ancap society, companies need to label the ingredients on their packaging as carcinogenic. So customers can make informed decisions.

>>712795831
It doesn't really matter what you think because you don't have an argument.

>>712795670
ok then go for 99% capitalism instead of 50%

>>712795879
my argument is that we tried what you're suggesting and it didn't work

>>712795508
The industrial revolution was a fantastic time, if you ignore all the state monopolies that the state granted because the state said they were needed. Thank god the free market incentivized and enabled competitors to run circles around those state monopolies, even while evading the law. Too bad that forced the state to start granting monopolies through regulations while pretending to be capable of fighting monopolies. If only the state weren't around to make monopolies a thing. Anyways, it absolutely worked during the wild west. You can accuse me of not knowing history, but until you put up, you'd better shut up if you don't want to appear the fool.

>>712795873
Hard to find one at the gay bar

>>712795824
Adding to this, I had this thought when I saw an ad for twizzlers. I hadn't thought about twizzlers for years. I had an impulse to have some. I denied the impulse, but I could not deny receiving that impulse in the first place. why I hate ads. block those fuckers any way I can

>>712795890
what tool shall i use to measure the capitalism units?

>>712795935
>The industrial revolution was a fantastic time
lol holy shit ok yeah libertarians are just genuinely stupid. try reading some history books before trying to argue about this kind of stuff

>>712795931
So you look at the current system and think it's working?

>>712796003
if things are bad why would i want to go back to something that was even worse?

>>712795828
Because I agree with you that people mature at lightly different rates. And you used that claim to justify Rothbards reasoning to abolish the age of consent. You said he was correct.

And I find that conclusion unsatisfying. Teenagers are idiots. If a 14 year old or younger thinks their an adult, their sorely mistaken.

>>712796052
So what do you actually believe in? You don't even know.

>>712795935
the life expectancy of a 20 year old during the height of the industrial revolution was lower than that of a 20 year old pre-agricultural hunter-gatherer

>>712795681
Then let them die. You can't save every dumbass from killing themselves, but you can save the people who are smart enough not to from what you'd do to them to save the dumbasses. If the example of others isn't enough to go off of, then the society was doomed from the get go.

>>712796065
i believe that libertarians are dumb

>>712795285
I wasn't talking about murder rates in that context but livability. Lots of refugees from Mao, Stalin, etc, despite being massive nations with tons of natural resources, vs Kowloon being a single city block crowded to hell yet people kept moving in because it was inexpensive and unregulated

>>712795942
Is this like an ironic thing where you intentionally make a reply that is dumb to make fun of libertarians or a false flag?

>>712795717
You are free to choose not to exist under a hierarchy, just separate yourself from it. The only problem with that is that commies want to separate themselves from hierarchies that are intrinsic to nature, such as meritocracy, and justice. You have the choice between living in an unequal universe, and not living in an unequal universe, so please, choose not to live in this unequal universe and get isekaied into another one already.

>>712795681
Imagine normalizing health insurance. Why do you think medical treatment is so expensive to begin with?

>>712795798
>why didn't the free market stop monopolies from forming
because monopolies aren't unconsensual
>why didn't the free market stop businesses from destroying the land with pollution?
Because it was legal at the time? because the people who owned the land could do whatever they wanted with it.
If you want to make the argument that humans have a duty to protect the earth thats one thing but from a purely libertarian perspective you can't create externalities that harm other people so something like air pollution for example wouldn't be legal. Another good example of why I wouldn't consider this period of government libertarian.
>why was the working class working in dangerous, often fatal conditions and getting paid like shit?
because those are the job terms they accepted, you may want to look up the working and living conditions at the time to understand WHY they accepted those terms

>>712795798
>why didn't the free market stop monopolies from forming?
Why didn't the government?

>>712795726
It's called cognitive dissonance, and I'm glad I could help you realize it.

>>712795804
not technocratic eugenics
anon btfo

>>712796286
because some people thought that regulations were bad

>>712796286
Because the government created the monopolies.

>>712792296
KINO

>>712791686
This. These already exist in a less libertarian form. They're similar to tax havens in that they're mainly intended by their founders (libertarian businessmen and tech oligarchs) to evade red tape in developed countries. So what you end up with is adventurous but technically unlicensed doctors providing care and stuff like that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pr%C3%B3spera
NYT article copied by another site and therefore free to view:
https://worldtradescanner.com/Zero%20Govt%20Control%20Emerges%20in%20New%20Breed%20SEZs.htm

>>712796336
how did the government create standard oil?

>>712796197
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zu_eDxflkMc

>>712796060
This premise also only has the binary delineation between minor and adult. A 14 year old may not be an adult but they are not child. They should be treated how they are, a 14 year old, and however mature that person tends to be at that time. The law of most developed countries already has certain responsibilities given out like driving and working at different age increments. There is no reason consent shouldn't be seen as a sliding scale to coincide with maturity where you are given more responsibilities as you get older in line with your biological development.

>>712796310
Yeah, in theory (like every system).
But in practice, the ones that try to set it up are retarded so everyone becomes even more retarded.

>>712795873
They have higher iqs then republicans and democrats almost by an entire standard deviation. Its likely that you're just an idiot that thinks being smart means having the right opinion.

>>712796253
Sorry, but my human soul burns with the desire for a world free of exploitation.

>>712795798
1) Natural monopolies are a myth. 2) That's maybe a problem with industrialism, but the free market is the best solution at preventing pollution when people actually care about the environment, unless you don't care about the humans you'd kill by getting rid of industrialism. 3) Working conditions in factories/mines were universally superior to the working conditions in agriculture, which is precisely why so many people moved to work under those conditions. Children got enough money to not need to work for the first time in human history because of capitalism.

>>712796002
it was the most productive and innovative time in human history quit being a pearl clutching luddite

>>712796647
it was actually a terrible time to live in unless you were upper class

>>712796121
Thats fine if thats what you're willing to do but most people do not consider letting the weak die to be a functioning system.

>>712796335
Yeah, the government.

>>712796208
hes clearly calling you gay faggot

>>712796676
>UMM AKSHUALLY

>>712789992 (OP)
Are Jews involved?

>>712795824
>You do the tempting on your own
Grow some self-control. Advertisements exist only to remind you that the company exists, if you dislike the product, hell, if you dislike the advertisement, it'll have the exact opposite effect on you.

>>712796734
yes. the working class in cities lived in terrible filthy conditions and were poor as fuck.

>>712796636
>Working conditions in factories/mines were universally superior to the working conditions in agriculture, which is precisely why so many people moved to work under those conditions
You were educated in the US, weren't you?

>>712796259
Um hello dumbass insurance makes things cheaper. Only the US has a system so retarded where doctors can just charge anything and insurance companies will pay it.

>>712796781
You talking about today or back then?

>>712796474
I can agree about technocracy becoming corrupted and just becoming a standard oligarchy but the eugenics movement was never really given a fair chance. Didn't even have a single generation to be tried before it was de facto outlawed.

>>712796556
>Comparing an ideology to political parties
The quest for the intelligent libertarian continues

>>712796849
i'm talking about back then.

>>712795931
>An apple isn't an orange.
>You're playing semantics.
The thing about communism is that you can show that it objectively was communism almost every single time, but the 1800s had heavy government involvement in all the areas you complained about the most, and you refuse to consider any examples we give. You have no argument, you're just an incredulous fool who projects their own ignorance onto others and refuses to hear the other side out. We've tried democracy before, and it failed, so why did a democratic republic like the one we have now end up doing as well as it did?

>>712796636
>3) Working conditions in factories/mines were universally superior to the working conditions in agriculture, which is precisely why so many people moved to work under those condition
Ridiculous. Miners became miners because it made them money, not because it was superior in working conditions.

>>712796947
So what's changed?

>>712796956
explain how the government created standard oil

the reason libertarianism doesn't work and can never work is very simple
the system encourages money to accumulate in a small number of individuals
and because money directly relates to power, once these individuals are wealthy and powerful they invariably will use that wealth and power to undermine libertarian structures and replace them with oligarchy

and there's no means why which a libertarian society can avoid this fate due to a weakened government

>>712796804
>adding more middlemen makes a product cheaper

>>712796976
again this is another example of a libertarian who is extremely ignorant of history. even poorfags live better than workers in the 1800s

>>712796413
how did the free market create The British East India Company

>>712796964
>>712796636
also because due to advances in agriculture the sector couldn't support as many jobs anymore and people were forced to find alternatives
but industrial revolution coal miners were subject to conditions not even slaves were subject to in many a civilization

>>712797069
>can't answer
concession accepted

>>712796436
fuck off with this shit already

>>712796804
>insurance makes things cheaper

In theory, in practice it's just an installment plan, because the savings are all eaten by the middleman.
Not saying state paid medicine is different btw.

>>712797007
>Libertarians weaken government
>the system encourages money to accumulate in a small number of individuals
So what exactly is "the system" if the government is so weak?

>>712797059
And why are we in such an advanced society compared to the 1800's workers?

>>712796079
>the life expectancy of a 20 year old
1) where'd you get that statistic. 2) When fewer people die before their teens, more people die after their teens. Of course the life expectancy of people who managed to live past 20 years would be worse if the life expectancy of toddlers was better. More people are dying late in their lives in general.

>>712797121
because people elected politicians that created regulations and supported unions

>>712789992 (OP)
Rapture no, but Columbia absolutely could, its a tragedy you play as the bad guys in infinite

>>712797159
Politicians and unions created the technological advances for modern living?

>>712797121
Free market
That's the big libertarian elephant: how do you maintain free market in a society where the most powerful individuals only have incentives to subvert it?

>>712796676
So what? wealth mobility was freely available based on merit thats why you had so many rags to riches stories whereas now you have to be socially or politically connected to get ahead in this fake economy

>>712797201
So regulating trade is the only way to maintain society? Picking winners and losers in the market regardless of profit?

>>712797192
better working conditions didn't happen because of better technology

>>712797232
>most people were living in shitty conditions
>lol so what
libertarian moment

>>712796726
So did the public. Government policies were motivated by public sentiment. No one thought regulations were important at the time.

>>712797127
>Of course the life expectancy of people who managed to live past 20 years would be worse if the life expectancy of toddlers was better
no that's not how this works anon, life expectancy at a certain age takes only the people who made it to that age into account

all this means is that it was more dangerous to be a health 20 year old individual in victorian england than back when doggerland hadn't drowned

because turns out, if the air you breathe is poison, the water you drink is poison and you work unnaturally long hours while being poisoned, your body just gives up after a while

>>712796976
Not that guy, but living conditions. Tenement housing in the 1800s was utterly squalid, medieval tier. Productiveness and innovation mainly benefited the wealthy/capital-having class for lack of progressive social policies. This is why socialism was such a big deal in the 1800s in the first place, because capitalists and politicinas all across the Western world unironically feared revolutions by their underclasses. Slowly, progressives in most countries became integrated in the framework of society and got to throw the poor a bone, while in places like Russia a revolution actually came with catastrophic consequences.

>>712796413
By LITERALLY granting them monopoly rights. As in standard oil lobbied the state for the right to monopolize an industry. Before the state complied, standard oil wasn't even a monopoly, it just had market dominance because nobody else had entered the oil business. That's like saying blockbuster had a monopoly because it was the only business selling physical media after netflix took over.
>>712796578
By "exploitation" you mean mutually beneficial transactions between voluntary participants. Your argument is invalid.

>>712797293
>better working conditions didn't happen because of better technology
This is objectively false. You probably work somewhere with air conditioning/heating

>>712792296
>boring straight version of a tranny greentext

>>712797361
i'm not talking about air conditioning and heating. are you retarded?

>>712789992 (OP)
We already have a real life Rapture. It's called Grafton and it's in New Hampshire.

>>712797036
To the consumer it does. You'd have to pay half a million dollars for treatments like dialysis compared to your insurance bill yea its cheaper. Also the middleman isn't the significant part the significant part is all the other insurance payers subsidizing your bills.

>>712797246
regulation is necessary for a free market to remain free
because otherwise, rather than investing in innovation a monopolistic company can just invest in ways to kill superior companies before they become a threat to their profit margins, then because they are a monopoly, raise prices so the consumer is forced to pay for the privilege of making their lives worse

>>712797325
>for lack of progressive social policies
That's where you're wrong kiddo

>>712797389
>It doesn't count unless I say so!
So what about every other technological advancement since the 1800's? They were all invented by politicians?

The thing with libertarianism is that it's a losing ideology by its own criteria. In the free marketplace of ideas the historically poor conditions of the working class and the complete disregard of the owner class for everything but their own finances led to the creation of demand for regulations on business, some people decided to freely associate in political organisations to satisfy this demand and they found out the majority voted in favour of the opposite of libertarianism for prolonged periods of history (this is because the conditions which led to the existence of the aforementioned demand for regulation never changed). So humans have already freely decided to reject libertarianism and libertarianism is a losing ideology in the free marketplace of ideas.

>>712796939
um actually I was comparing a political party to other political parties bozo

>>712797391
>During this time, the town's population grew by about 200 people (about 20%); nearly all of the newcomers were men.[15] Project participants did not find themselves as welcome as they had hoped, but they voted in changes including a 30% reduction in the town's already small budget.[15] This resulted in eliminating funding to the county's senior-citizens council, town offices going unheated during the winter, poorly maintained roads filled with potholes, and the Grafton Police Department being reduced to one officer (the police chief), who said he was unable to answer calls for service as the town had no money to repair the one police vehicle left.[18] Other issues were inconsistent basic public services, such as trash collection.[16][15] The libertarian newcomers additionally increased the town's costs by filing lawsuits against it in attempts to set various legal precedents.[15]
lmao

>>712789992 (OP)
It didn't even work in its own setting.

>>712797470
This is literally what happens with regulation today. Ever heard of lobbyists?

>>712797497
do you even know what i'm talking about when I say dangerous working conditions?

>>712796964
The amount you are paid is the most significant condition of your work.

>>712797543
Holy shit, I thought that first paragraph was the good part.
>The project has been associated with an increase in the number and aggressiveness of black bears in town, including entering homes, mauling people, and eating pets.[15] A single, definitive cause for the abnormal behavior of the bears has not been proven, but it may be due to libertarian residents who refuse to buy and use bear-resistant containers, who do not dispose of waste materials (such as feces) safely, or who deliberately put out food to attract the bears to their own yards, without caring how this affected other people.[15]
>After a rash of lawsuits from Free Towners, an influx of sex offenders, an increase of crime, problems with bold local bears, and the first murders in the town's history, the Libertarian project ended in 2016.[14][15][19]

>>712797497
the single most important factor in improving standards of living was the 8 hour work day, which was the achievement of socialists and unionists fighting and dying for it for decades

>>712797563
Do you even know what i'm talking about when I say technological advancements?

>>712789992 (OP)
It'd never happen on a long term scale. Once the infrastructure is built and things are going smoothly it'd just turn into any old government. Anarchy is just the transistionary period between a fallen government and a newly established one.

>>712797497
What a shitty, thoughtless post. Why bother?

>>712797595
no it's not

>>712797560
it happens to a lesser degree than what would happen if not for a complete lack of regulation
look at the EU slapping giga fines on tech companies that tried to kill their competition in various underhanded ways

>>712797617
>>712797651
Ah yes komrade, truly some great arguments!

>>712795587
better an ancap than a cuckcap

>>712797595
>What IS a company town, anyway?

libertarianism died like 10 years ago, nobody believes this stupid shit anymore

>>712797007
>the system encourages money to accumulate in a small number of individuals
Guess what so does authoritarian government. Even with shit like "democracy" you're really just giving power to a small number of people to enforce the publics "will." There is no system that doesn't concentrate power the question is who has it? In a libertarian society its people who are freely chosen by the collective actions of society. In authoritarian ones its nepo babies and brown nosers. Why do you think there are so many degenerate sex parties now?

>>712797668
>It would be way worse without us! Trust us!
What a great racket.

>>712797623
it sounds like you have no idea what you're even talking about and have no real knowledge of this subject. you initially started talking about air conditioning and heating, wtf does that even have to do with anything?

>>712797102
>can't answer
concession accepted

>>712796695
Yes, you'd rather force the strong to die than let the insolvable retarded select themselves out of the genepool by their own actions.
>>712796964
I said working conditions were universally superior. That obviously included the pay, but back-breaking labor with unpredictable farm animals that lasted 24/7 with minimal pay was, in all regards, a worse set of working conditions than what the factories and mines offered. Neither are as great as what capitalism would go on to make, still before any regulations were implemented to fix it, but industrialism was still significantly better for working conditions. Once the market had solved the problem, the state signed it into law, and then took credit for it. You can call me ignorant, but if you bother to actually look at the statistics, you'll see that I'm right.

>>712797174
Rapture would work if it was all white people. Just look at Antarctica.

>>712797741
>In a libertarian society its people who are freely chosen by the collective actions of society
well except for the part where they have used their wealth to ensure that their nepo-babies will live like kings
because that's what would happen
Libertarianism isn't the opposite of authoritarianism, it's the precursor

Because remember in a libertarian society you would have to depend on the goodwill of Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos to allow healthy competition

>>712797293
>shitty people were living in shitty conditions
yea so what?

>>712797839
They're both back-breaking labor, but only one of them could kill or maim you.

>>712797898
It's a good thing we don't live in a libertarian society so nepo-babies don't exist.

>>712797741
Who is arguing for authoritarian government here? Take on an actual winner like republicanism or federalism, not some degenerated system primarily found in third-world countries. In a functioning republic, even a corrupt one, it's better to vote some random in and have them beholden to a voterbase than to concentrate power with leaders of industry who have no inherent obligation toward bettering society or the populace.

>>712797690
the simple fact is that you're not currently working 16 hour work days 7 days a week
And that's not the result of technology, nor of a free market, that is purely the result because your ancestors fought for it and died for it

>>712797913
do you think you would be in the minority of people or overwhelming majority of people?

>>712797953
it's a good thing we don't live in a libertarian society because there those nepo-babies could just fire into a crowd and pay everyone the 10 cents their corpses were worth

>>712797325
Everyone lived like shit in the past. People who lived in overcrowded cities dealt with the problems of overcrowding. Its not like communist countries every had better living conditions than capitalist ones. Only difference is communism wasn't around at the time to compare. But now it is.

>>712797346
>mutually beneficial
*heavily skewed in one side

>>712797323
That was exactly what i was saying. You only consider people who made it past the age of 20, meaning all the people who died before that don't count. Imagine all else is equal, but suddenly there is a huge influx of people who make it past the age of 20. Suddenly there are way more people dying in general, altering the life expectancy rates. Unless you can control for just deaths caused by industrialization, that's a worthless statistic that you still haven't provided a source for.

>>712797995
Some people do work 16 hour work days 7 days a week, sometimes voluntarily. Shudder at the thought that their ancestors don't come back and fight and die again.

>>712797470
Every time a natural monopoly tries to price gouge consumers they lose their monopoly status. Yes it doesn't happen in 24 hours but it happens. No a monopoly that changes prices in accordance with resource costs isn't price gouging thats why there is no increase in competition.

>>712797563
Like things falling on your head? You should get a helmet for that.

>>712797652
the workers disagree

>>712798220
have you ever had a job that wasn't in an office

>>712789992 (OP)
look up company towns, it was about as bad as slavery, there is your peak ancap

>>712797898
rags to rags in three generations

>>712798263
i think that if you asked people to choose between a pay cut and a 10% chance of dying or losing a limb they would choose to get paid less

>>712789992 (OP)
>Would a real-life Bioshock "Rapture City" work?
No, because bioshock's rapture city is a poorly researched caricature of libertarian/ancap philosophy and policy from people who hold it in contempt

>>712798329
You would be factually incorrect. Look at people who work on oil rigs

>>712790036
Fucking kids is privilege reserved to only the ultra rich and wealthy, and they primarily do it because they get a tremendous rush out of knowing how far above the law they are.

That's why it's so important for them to keep it labelled as a horrific criminal act and have normal people locked up, dehumanized and even killed for it, otherwise it won't have the same orgasmic appeal when they do it themselves knowing they can't be punished for something normal people would be stigmatized for.

And at the same time it functions like a basic social contract where anyone who steps out of line or threatens to ruin their fun in the eye of the other hyper-wealthy can be thrown to the retarded poor people social justice mobs by the same people who all engage in child fucking, like Epstein was.

>>712797779
nta but you realize that certain technology has to even exist for white color work to be available right? Like do you think things like work from home (work in bed) programmers would be employed if there were no computers?

>>712798309
unless you set up the system to devolve into corpo-feudalism
you know, the end result of libertarianism

>>712797952
Yes, horses are notoriously peaceful, and safe animals, same with cows and pigs. People have been seriously injured from chickens, not to mention the heavy equipment that, like the heavy equipment in factories, can be very dangerous, but unlike the animals, won't arbitrarily decide to trample you to death without any additional input. Unless you're trying to argue that factories can't kill or maim anyone, and even then, you're being incredulous.

>>712798010
>ego attack instead impartially explaining whats best for society
boy you really got me!

>>712798410
what? i'm not talking about white collar work.

>>712797036
you are half right in that insurance is a "middleman" that needs its own cut, making the cost overall higher on aggregate
not exactly an einstein level take

but if you think for just 5 seconds about the services they provide, you'll see why they deserve a cut
they spread the cost, and in a fair manner

are you healthy?
do you drive safe?
is your house built to code?
you pay less

fat? smoker?
do you think speed limits are suggestions?
did you DIY your wiring?
you pay more

their bottom line is also tied to assessing risk and safety, so they fund a lot of research into stuff like vehicle safety and food quality standards
purely out of their own self-interest

>>712797973
>republicanism or federalism
um hello? those are authoritarian system the mechanism by which the authority is selected doesn't change that it is one