Has a single player game ever successfully discouraged you from metafagging and minmaxing?

>>712833224 (OP)
Yeah, Dune Awakening.

>>712833224 (OP)
Okay but this is incredibly retarded because 99% of the time you have no idea which path entails what in your first playthrough.

>>712833547
Yeah because those would be spoilers

shit thread someone post the kirby edit

op is a negroid

>>712833224 (OP)
If a game is good and feels immersive then that inherently discourages metafagging. The player develops faith in the game and trusts that no matter what they choose the game will be fun.

Searching up guides happens because many games are long slogs where one wrong move is hard to undo, with too many forced permanent choices and restrictive save systems that discourage experimenting.
Also because video games, since the dawn of time, have been full of shitty trap options that serve no purpose and should never be picked, and only exist to fuck over the player as a joke. Or countless possible builds that are just worthless. Or permanently missable things that are only permanently missable because fuck you.

But if a game is good it has none of those problems, so you don't have to look anything up, so it never even occurs to you.

Take the new doom games for example. I think Eternal had perk choices or something like that for weapons. I didn't look anything up. It all kicked ass. The end.
Meanwhile in much shittier games, you often have to go on a 15 minute google sidebar just to figure out what a fucking number in a tooltip even means.

>>712833224 (OP)
Yes, playing them for the first time.
I think this is what fairly large amounts of people do and they just never talk about it online much. In most any games you don't really need a guide so why bother.

>>712833224 (OP)
If you need to use a wiki to enjoy the game or get the good ending, that's poor game design.

Gedonia, because trying to savescum choices and quest rewards just bugs the quests and makes them impossible to complete.

>play game blind
>get shit ending
>Not Recommended: The ending was shit.

The most I do is if I'm in a discussion for a game, I just ask for any tips I should know as a first time player.

>>712833224 (OP)
I used pretty much none of all the magical bullshit powers in Dishonored, because the game was already on the easy side without them.

>>712833224 (OP)
most of the time, the only genre that fuck shit up is ARPG.
>pick skill
>literally zero damage, dev intended it to only works in synergy along other bullshit 20 hours later
>cant respec
fuckin why

>>712833224 (OP)
Guidefagging is caused by bad game design.
Too many games blindly copied the concept of player choices, without all the other things games lauded for player choice already had.
For example, in a visual novel you can often choose the wrong thing and get a bad end. What happens after this? You reload a save, because the game lets you save any time, anywhere, and load whenever you want.
Modern games all have some esoteric autosave bullshit and probably online sync as well. Even for single-player. so if you get a bad outcome you're expected to just eat shit and keep playing in a permanently cucked state. Yeah no, I'll just look up what the choices do because you're worse at making video games than a solo dev with ren'py, thanks.

>>712833224 (OP)
no. It wouldn't be as much as a problem if playthroughs were shorter. if they take more than 60h (being generous there, 40 is more like it) then a bunch of peeps are unlikely to try another playthrough and thus will want the optimal path on the first.

>>712835776

I've been playing Grim Dawn mostly blind and it's pretty easy to get into and make a decent playable build blind and it's easy to respec if you fuck up anyway. Honestly this is the only ARPG I've played where I felt that I didn't really ever need a guide.
Though the game does hit you with a "did you get your resistance stats in order" check at some point, that's probably the most important stat to worry about above all else.

>>712833224 (OP)
Games are way too long. I'm not going to replay your 200 hour game five or six times. Pathfinder WOTR is one of my favorite games but I only played it twice. So yes I will research what every choice does and autistically comb d20pfsrd.com for build information because I ain't going back to choose again.

>>712836263

I really need to finish Pathfinder WOTR, I keep getting to the final acts but get burned out and then I don't remember what I was doing when I reload my game after a break.

>>712836153
>did you get your resistance stats in order
this seems pretty common, my recent examples to previous post were PoE 2 and Hero Siege, both would let you pick ~4 initial skill even when only one of those were actually good.

>>712835776
"no respec" is one of those cardinal sins of video games. Just a gigantic unforced error, there's zero excuse for this shit and never has been.
Even the shittiest greediest Korean MMOs let you respec if you pay them real money. Imagine making a game that doesn't even have this feature at all. What were they thinking?

>>712835536
That would be a fair and honest review, if I was a developer that intentionally added a shit ending this is something that I would expect.

>>712833224 (OP)
>hey, this is pretty fun but it's taking too long
>I need to find a way to experiencie most that this game has to offer
I don't mind if you want to do several playthroughs and discover everything but I'm not going to invest the time for several runs just to experience stuff a little differently

>playing an RPG
>super autistic passive system
>have to get several passives together simultaneously to trigger better effects
>the recipes for these arent given to the player you have to find them on accident
>several core passives are locked to low drop rates for bosses
>you wont even know the boss drops that passive or the passive even fucking exists unless you kill them like a dozen times for their full lore page
>just end up bookmarking guides for where everything drops and what all the passive combos are otherwise I would waste hundreds of hours of my life
nah man guidefagging is necessary sometimes

>>712833224 (OP)
I do not intend to replay games so I'd rather have most content on a single run.

>>712836651
>>712836938
>>712836939
NPCs

>>712835985
"bad ending" or "good ending" shouldn't exist.
One is just game-over from failng the game.
The other is just ending you want to see.

You should only have ending, period.

>>712836456

Probably just pad out time so you have to roll a new character when you fuck up. I remember playing Ragnarok Online and you couldn't respec your stat points in the early versions in the game and one the most common features private servers did was give a respec option for free. If you fucked up your stat point distribution, your character could be bricked.
I know they have a respec option now but I don't remember if they had it back when it was a P2P MMO or if they added it as a cash shop option when they went F2P. Not like it matters, everyone just plays on private servers.

>>712837301
>Non Poorfag Chad
Thanks but I don't need your compliments, time is the most valuable resource and we all have the same 24 hours each day.

>>712837305
Nah, sometimes the game over is the ending you want to see. I played Cartagra and got a bad ending where the protagonist's psycho little sister maims him with a knife and keeps him wheelchair-bound and drugged for the rest of his life so she can milk out his semen. I decided that was the best possible ending and nothing else could surpass it, so I considered the game finished and stopped playing.

>>712837305

nah, bad endings can be cool in their own right and give you greater context/lore in the story that you wouldn't get from a normal/good ending.
and most bad endings I see in modern games is something you basically have to out of your way for, I don't remember the last time a modern game just has "oh you took a left instead of a right? you just condemned humanity into suffering forever lmao". You don't really get sucker punched these days. VNs are probably the only exception since you can just reload a save and some of them make it a point that you do want to collect the bad endings.

>>712833224 (OP)
the tryhards on here, especially /vrpg/, will crucify me for saying this but games with RPG elements shouldn't be stupid hard, the reason people care about getting the best shit early is everything is too damn spongey if you're not optimized a certain way. i see you all shitting on new vegas for being too easy and casual, but people have fun playing it instead of rushing straight for the antimateriel rifle to fight geckos and powder gangers.

>>712835536
>Play Witcher 3
>Don't leave Ciri alone with sorcress lodge hoes because I've learned my lesson and can help her avoid the same mistake
>Tell her its okay to fuck up and perfection is an impossible goal instead of throwing a snowball at her face
>Calm her down so she doesn't unleash a power that almost leveled an entire keep full of people friendly to her, only this time directed at an elf with dubious alliegence's study

>Uhhhhhmmmm akshully the game is about empowering her to break prophecy by just saying yes to everything and confirming she's perfect
>Get bad end

I'd be less inclined to look shit up if playthroughs of games were still like 20 hours with NG+ being as fast as 5 hours once you know what you're doing. If a base playthrough is gonna be like 110+ hours I'm probably not doing a NG+ any time soon so of course I'm going to look up how to get the outcome I want.

>[GAME] spoiler free permanently missable quest and item checklist
Time to game.

>>712838591
>play a terrible rpg
>don't leave after realizing how dogshit it is
first time playing CDPR trash? The endings of all their games are contrived bullshit

>>712838135
RPG grognards in general and on 4chan are tsundere for easy games. There's a certain type of gamer that always turns the difficulty up to max then gets frustrated when they lose. Meanwhile many "classic" RPGs they claim to love are easy as fuck. Planescape for example is more like a VN with shoehorned gameplay segments. The original Fallout is piss easy for the most part if you tag small guns. Morrowind is easy if you play well and the NPCs in the game dump advice on you about how to do that. This is of course putting aside all the easy game-breaking exploits.

>>712833224 (OP)
Never been a problem for me. This is likely more of a PCsister problem because you can just alt tab to RedditCordChan or some shit, at the very least on console I'd have to sacrifice a hand and look way from the TV to use my phone.

>>712833224 (OP)
>select the route that's clearly favored by the devs
>achieve the most objectively beneficial outcome
Wow, what a dilemma. Clearly, it's my fault for metagaming instead of picking one of the retarded options.

in fable 2 i always went with the ending where the dog dies because he was annoying and always in the way

>>712833224 (OP)
I do my first run blind then I go looking for optimal builds on the subsequent runs

>>712836938
Troubleshooter?

>>712833224 (OP)
I was getting pissed playing the new deltarune chapters because if you happen to walk down the intended path while exploring the game locks you into a cutscene and then locks away the previous area and you miss out on it unless you replay the game which is not very replayable because it has so much unskippable cutscene shit that's always the same
I just want to see all the funny dialogue before I move on but I kept having to load saves from a longass time ago and do the exact same shit for 20+ minutes just to get back to that one hallway I didn't happen to go down first

>>712835536
>>712836609
Bad endings should be game over conditions if you lose a fight or fail a vital quest and then let you reload an old save just like after dieing.
Properly beating the game should gurantee getting the good ending.

>>712833224 (OP)
I finished Napple Tale with all normal and furniture paffets without looking up a guide once. Still can't call this 100% completion because there are four slots labeled "treasures" in the UI and I don't really know what that's about. Also missing some cards. I hope to figure it out on new playthrough+ in a year or so when I start to miss this game. This game is so easy that exploration provides the only real challenge, it would get extremely boring if I knew what to do and where to go.

>>712841157
yeah, stll loved the game but the mastery system is peak korean garbage design, atleast when it comes to aquiring rare masteries and making sets

>>712841157
kek that was my first thought when reading that post too
I personally didn't mind it, I just let masteries roll in as I got them and didn't go hunting for them

>>712839896
>brings up PC out of nowhere
???

>>712833547
>you don't know what'll happen if you do something until you do it
Good, faggot.

>>712841365
Retard, not every story has a good ending. If they did it would make your choices pointless.

>>712839896
>>712842205
Switch2&Snoy-allianceNIGGERS sperging up again!

>>712842339
What's the point of playing a 60 hour RPG only to get a big-ass "Fuck you" at the end?

>>712842436
To get an interesting experience. If youre really only playing to get to the end youre wasting your time.

>>712839896
rent free

>>712842436
Are there games that do this? I can think of plenty of RPGs where, if you consistently do the most evil possible shit the entire time, you get the evil guy ending where things seem fucked, but isn't that the desired outcome? The only RPG I can think of with a "fuck you" ending is ME3.

>>712843421
Drova Forsaken Kin had the thing that if you didn't read the wiki, more likely than not, you got the shit ending on your first run.

>>712842436
immersion

>>712833224 (OP)
99.999% of the people play Pokemon without min-maxing or metafagging.
Most people don't bother with looking up what each gym leader has or resets the game for the best personality on your optimal starter.

>>712833224 (OP)
Disco Elysium

>>712837305
In some games, the "bad" ending is just more fun. Like Undertale.

exponential cost increase for stats discourages me from min maxing. Choosing between upgrading the same stat just one more time or upgrading three other ones instead

>>712835536
That's perfectly fine.
Even 'bad' endings should still conclude things well unless its one of those endings that came from a simple decision that is easily undone by the game just putting you back before the choice.

>>712833224 (OP)
Walkthroughfags =/= Halo3fags
OP is a fag
And so is the tweeter

>>712833224 (OP)
I don't need to be discouraged.

At any random time, TF2 will give anyone a 8-13% or 15-60% chance of instantly deleting an enemy gamer and retards have seethed about this for almost 20 years making it basically impossible for them to actually play in general public games.
Which included SEVERAL YEARS of trying to destroy the game for everyone because they couldn't meta fag around pablo.gonzales firing off a single crocket and ending a spawn camp

>>712833224 (OP)
Only time this backfired on me was
>Decide to finally beat Cave Story
>Read up on a super weapon you can get if you never upgrade your gun and complete a difficult jump
>turns out it is a newgame+ ending
>Still haven't finished cave story
Not a big deal since it is a fun game and I will enjoy playing it again

>>712837305
>sandbox game devs when players find a cool way to make the game easier

>>712833224 (OP)
>path 2 is blatantly way better than path 1
jobber dev, the coin and sword reward should swap places

>>712841319
i mostly didnt have that issue as the 'right way' was generally obvious, i only recall
>reloading a save because of that stupid egg in chapter 4
>reloading a save after walking through the wrong door before the gerson fight

>>712833224 (OP)
>Game
>Has an end
Dropped

>>712833224 (OP)
terraria
played it several times through over the years and I still don't know nor care what is the optimal way to beat it

>>712850750
I have not found a single egg

>>712851070
Being fair Terraria is really well designed and you don't really have to care about "builds" or anything outside of Youtube Clickbait Mode

>old guy with a jet pack falls down
>go attempt to rescue him
>suddenly on shit end path

When a game punish you for playing how you want and you have to spend real life money to retcon a build, then there is a n issue.

>>712835985
>Guidefagging is caused by bad game design
Games have never been more faceroll simple in terms of both reward structure and narrative consequences, and yet guides have become effectively the norm.

>>712837484
One of the worst MMOs since it also enforces minmaxing stats per class instead of letting the player just figure out a build with goofy stats

>>712841319
You get a shit ton of save points in deltarune as a hint that you should be making a lot of saves

>>712835536
>myhouse.pk3

if you use a guide to metafag, you didnt beat the game
you didnt actually play the game either

What is with autists trying to "solve" games?

>>712854230
>normalfag casual confused as usual

>>712839541
>Morrowind is easy if you play well and the NPCs in the game dump advice on you about how to do that. This is of course putting aside all the easy game-breaking exploits.
Well, that's sort of the point. It's a game that expects you to have some patience and figure things out. It'll even help you with it, but it won't shove the solutions in your face. That's the ideal. A game that's easy if you actually take the time to get on its level.

>>712854067
explain

>>712854767
It's extremely hard to get the true ending, and with a bad ending you're missing like 3/4 of the game.

>>712836456
>no respec is bad

>>712853706
you only have 3 save slots and if you want to do the alternate route that's two already taking up every slot on every chapter
if you want a save before the super bosses just to replay them for fun easily that's all three slots already used up

I play blind games where branching paths means you can screw over NPCs or towns in roundabout ways or if they makes you miss money.

But when you get shit like refusing a reward makes the innkeeper gift you Orcbane his grandfather sword +5
Or exploring the forest before visiting the church makes you miss a companion I'm pulling a guide

Basically what this guy said >>712834356
Serves me right for replying to OP before reading the thread

>>712838591
You actually got the good ending where Witcher 4 will never happen.

I've played games with guides and completely blind, and I don't think either way makes me enjoy them more or less.
I think it's similar to spoilers for a movie: there are a few movies where getting spoiled will drastically change the experience l, but most good movies are good even if you know how they will end in advance.
My favorite games are also the games I read the most about.

>>712855427
Nta but it’s 3 slots per chapter, I agree it’s overly restrictive but you get enough room for super bosses

>>712852893
The truth is the current generation has become too used to just looking shit up, they are becoming borderline incapable of doing anything they aren't directly told to do. The only solution would be to fix the education system to actually teach people how to think and act indepentantly, but that's a problem that started aeons ago and only got worse as propagandizing became more important than learning.

>>712842205
>>712842342
>>712843106
Nuh uh, savoury big truths.

>>712833224 (OP)
>path 1 and 2 silently lock you out of endgame 50 hours in without even hinting at it
>dev seethes when people look up a guide

If the game is good, I'll play it blind.
If the game sucks, I won't play it.
It's that simple.
Unfortunately there's something about the majority of gamers recently that feel entitled to play every game, so they force themselves to play bad games, and then they need guides to do the thinking for them because they don't want to waste brainpower on a shit game.

I look things up if I think it's reasonable information that could have been obtained by my character in-game, if there was a robust enough dialogue system to ask open questions to the NPCs for example.

>>712835536
that's fine but it means there was nothing captivating about the gameplay that makes you want to return and you were left unaware that there was multiple choices and possibilities, so the game was bad anyway

>>712835536
I did this with Hollow Knight.
I never fought Radiance.

>>712833224 (OP)
Yeah make a game that isn't based around it.

>>712855427
You can use one save as the ongoing slot for your current run that you can just reset to if you fuck up anything. Two extra slots just in case at pivotal points you think might be important. By the time you want to do the alternate route you've seen everything on your first go so you won't need to save as obsessively and can just do the important stuff. So on your alternate route run you lose one slot as your save for the regular route, but you know how it plays out so you don't need all 3. I don't see that big of a problem really

>>712833224 (OP)
Romancing saga 2 but thats kinda a different story

>>712859263
only 3 slots doesn't let me save freely to see different dialogue options that might be interesting
>just replay the game
tell toby to stop stuffing unskippable cutscenes in that are 90% the same no matter what you pick