Thread 713541552

Why can't indie rpgs into fun gameplay
>inb4 turn-based rpgs can't be fun
skill issue, picrel did it

>>713541552 (OP)
Because indie devs try to design around turn based gameplay instead of for turn based gameplay.

>>713541552 (OP)
v sucks

>>713541552 (OP)
Stop playing quirky earthbound depression simulators made by rape victims, they're less focused on gameplay and more focused on a sob story.

>>713541552 (OP)
Touhou Artificial Dream in Arcadia

>>713541552 (OP)
because indie jrpgs just copy chrono trigger, earthbound and/or slap real time gimmicks on to make it more "engaging" (read: to distract you from the actual turn based part of the gameplay). they approach the genre from the angle "these were good in spite of being turn based" imstead of "I liked these because they were turn based".

>>713541552 (OP)
pic rel, SMT 3 and 4 and even Persona 3,4,5 on higher difficulties did it as well.
Also srpg games like Disgaea, Final Fantasy Tactics and Fire Emblem also have fun turn based gameplay.
Shadow Hearts 1 as well but 2 is just too easy and it ruined it.
Mario and Luigi Super Star Saga is fun aswell before they ruined those games with annoying minigame special move spam.
Final Fantasy X and X-2 also have good turn based combat systems.

>>713541552 (OP)
VV is a terrible game to make your case with
it's not even the best game in the series let alone turn based in general
>dampeners turn bosses into guess the color (easy)
>moves are cookie cutter with less thought put into them than the fucking SMT gacha
>stat growth and skill inheritance are barely meaningful if at all
it gets a pass for being a serviceable 3D SMT title but that's a very low bar in anno domini 2025

Bug Fables had excellent combat on hard mode and I really enjoyed the dungeon designs. Definitely recommend taking a look at a few others as well
>Moonring
>Crystal Project
>Potato Flowers in Full Bloom
>Operencia

>>713543497
dampeners aren't relevant past finn mccool

>>713541552 (OP)
>hit enemy weakness
>null enemy damage
Wow, so engaging

>>713543707
Yeah, then you just start spamming block spells to prevent them from ever attacking.

>>713543707
only because you can access NDR demons consistently I guess. I never even used dampeners but even having that option made the game feel like a glorified VN.
I never felt like I needed to fuse (unlike previous SMT games), never felt the need to grind which might be a good thing, but it never got hard until the super boss in VV which was just "cheese this or die" and felt super cheap (again compared to other entries and just in general)

>>713543730
Somehow most jrpgs cant even manage that

>>713543868
>the super boss in VV
I'm talking about Satan/DF btw before some sperg calls me out for bitching about Shiva or some shit

>>713543951
Yes, most jrpgs don't want to dumb down the game to such an extent.

>>713541552 (OP)
High bar since vv is the most fun turn based game since 2020

>>713541552 (OP)
I wish there was any to be found, end up forcing myself to finish near the end at the three way god war.
JRPGs are usually carried by their writing (some kind of interesting story or characters) and I just couldn't bring myself to give a fuck about any of it.
>inb4hurrduuryouneedtobeatit5timesforittogetgood
na fuck that shit, it wasn't the first time. I'd rather stick with DQ or something like Metal Saga.

>>713541552 (OP)
some indie games can do it well, I quite liked Lisa the painful's take on it with Xenogears-like melee with Brad's moveset and the twists on that system with the loss of arms, and how items and status ailments work.

>>713544074
The only jrpg series that doesn't put me to sleep with boring ass gameplay. Give it a try

It's been 20 years that every atlus game has been "hit the fire weak enemy with the fire attack and equip the wind resist against the enemy with the wind attack" and retards talk about them like it's fucking gungnir on PSP

>>713544275
So what is it? Can't be SMT since it's no more complex than Final Fantasy.

>>713544450
It's smt, don't compare it to final fantasy since the only ff with good gameplay wasn't even developed by square

>>713543497
VV is the best game in the series and peak JRPG turn based combat.

>>713544532
FFT has good gameplay

Too hard for normies. They get filtered if there are random drops

>>713544532
The best turn based battle system ever made did in fact come from Square

>>713541552 (OP)
Expedition 33 is indie and much better than smt v and the other atluslops.

>>713541552 (OP)
Employing the same strategy of "hit weakness" for every boss is hardly fun.

>>713543791
I want to point out block spells in V cost 50 MP. Block spells in DDS cost 3 MP and are available from the beginning of the game. Party wide Karns in IV/IVA cost 50 MP.

Block spells in VV are the most balanced they've ever been in the franchise. This is always the most disingenuous shit you retards just repeat what your e-celeb masters tell you without even thinking.

>>713544694
What's good about it

>>713541552 (OP)
Expedition 33 was a lot better. It was the first JRPG in a long time to actually be fun to play and not just watch cutscenes for.

>>713541552 (OP)
>Why can't indie rpgs into fun gameplay
I like Cassette Beasts, I think its pretty neat.

>>713541552 (OP)
>Why can't indie rpgs into fun gamepl-ACK!

>>713543791
the fact you can do that is cool. there's tons of viable strats to approach every combat encounter including satan. VV's strength is giving you tons of tools and letting you figure things out yourself.

>>713544918
>its a dark sou-
No thanks

>>713544694
I love SSG but SEB surpassed it

>>713544830
Okay, and? You act like there's no way to recover MP in the middle of a fight when chakra drops are in abundance. Even when spamming them for bosses I never ran out. This projection of "you never played it" is so tired and pathetic.

>>713545002
Even worse, it's dark souls mixed with pokemon

>>713544879
>0 good party building mechanics
>All enemy attacks boil down to hit the timing to negate all damage so there is zero defensive game either

I enjoyed E33 but its one of those JRPGs that try to play around turn based games not a a game with good turn based combat.

>unskippable dialogue and/or cutscenes
>long attack animations
>shallow build making
>incremental 2% upgrades
and my least favorite
>devs are too afraid to allow rng power spikes to happen

>>713544967
If bosses aren't challenging then they're a bore.

>NO NO NO, SMTVV IS ACTUALLY ***NOT*** FUN AT ALL, IN FACT IT IS %EASY% WHICH IS A CARDINAL SIN
>THE MOST FUN JRPG IS DISGAEA: PRINNY 2: DAWN OF OPERATION PANTIES

>>713545129
What game are you describing? It's not vv

>face boss
>use element nullification consumable (infinite uses)
>beat boss
the only content in the entire game get your noggin joggin are the fiends dlc, true lucifer, and the superbosses

>>713545221
im describing why indie rpgs cant into fun gameplay, read OP

>>713545221
The thread was actually about indie games not about discordfag's neverending hate bones to SMT V.

>>713544842
Imagine the turn order gauge in FFX, Trails etc, but not only do you get bonus actions for surrounding enemies on the timeline, but the enemies also get bonus actions if you're surrounded. A good chunk of the moves can be used to manipulate turn order as well and you're trying to build advantages for yourself while keeping the enemy from getting their own. Once you get deep into it and set up multi-chain bonus attacks it is insanely fun.

Enemies hit hard too, and healing is very limited. None of the battles feel like filler, the music is incredible too.

>>713545020
I only played the demo, what do you think it does better overall? I was having a bit of trouble getting used to some of the changes but I'm sure it's nothing too big

>>713545262
>(infinite uses)

>>713545262
>>use element nullification consumable (infinite uses)
>infinite uses
Why lie

>>713545365
I go to a shop and I buy more
I do not need to build my party around story content, its designed to be steamrolled with what you bring on hand

>>713545262
Anon, you only get 3 uses of element nullification consumable. If you've tricked out your party for the boss 3's all you need, but in that scenario you have successfully engaged with the game's mechanics.

>>713544918
>Bosses have comically high status evasion/resistance
>Hit Weakness: The Game feat. Burst I (A.K.A. Just use any type in the game lol)

>>713545109
That's what makes it good.

>>713545287
Bug Fables had great combat and some really fun build possibilities imo

>>713545468
ive been putting a ton of hours into siralim ultimate if you like creature collector rpgs

>>713541552 (OP)
>using SMT V of all things as an example

>>713545564
What would use as an example?

>>713545564
SMTVV's only redeeming quality is the team building stuff and quality of combat

>>713545539
New to me, I'll check it out! Take a look at WIZman's World Retry if you haven't yet yourself

>>713541552 (OP)
The only reason you can't find good turn based games is because you're a AAA fag that only looks at graphics.

>>713541552 (OP)
>Why can't indie rpgs into fun gameplay
They still do, you're just looking in the wrong places.

>>713541552 (OP)
You should've posted good examples, like E33 or Deltarune, or even F&H. Literally any turn-based game made in the last 10 years is more fun than Atlus games

>>713545110
shooters evolved past doom's neck brace camera, JRPGs can evolve past the monotonous turn menu system

>>713545790
webm unrelated

>>713545881
Filtered

>>713544764
yeah, outsourcing to hundred on contractors is indie now
kill yourself astroturfer

>>713545863
>good examples, like E33 or Deltarune
thanks for the laugh

>>713545863
holy zoomie

E33 is not an indie RPG and one look at the credits will show you otherwise, fuck off

>>713541552 (OP)
Plenty of indies with good TB gameplay.
>SMTVV
Demons in modern SMT are boring as shit. None of them feel special because modern Atlus thought that fairies and ghosts should be just as powerful as demigods and deities.

>>713545870
>evolve by stripping out defensive options and party building to centralize the combat around being poor man's sekiro

>>713546262
>evolve by ripping out the boring, number-crunching shit and replacing it with fun, skill-based shit
If you're too stupid to understand that this is the most positive change JRPGs have seen in decades, you're probably too stupid to engage with the genre in a meaningful way.

>>713546032
It's an independent game, they have no publishers.
Production value and quality is not being independent.
It's funny and literal who mog all high budget JRPGs.

>>713541552 (OP)
Indie RPGs are like 90% inspired by SNES Squaresoft games and the first good game Square made was FF Tactics.

>>713546050
>>713546108
You old farts think that your stale, outdated 30-year-old gameplay is fun because your parents weren't divorced back when you played SMT1 for the first time.
Your vision is blurred with nostalgia, and you can't assess things objectively.

>>713546262
>defensive options and party building
no one wants to scroll through menus and minmax this isn't the 90s anymore when you could sell guides for this shit
anyone can just google the perfect build and/or party comp and cheese through the game
the genre is sorely lacking in player engagement and creative writing
E33 largely addresses these while keeping the core turn mechanic intact while leaving room for potential improvement

>>713546421
>they have no publishers
this is blatantly untrue ranjeesh

>>713545337
Lots of stuff really
>Multiple races are back, there's also subraces this time around
>All races end up having a lot of depth in their own right, with some of them being completely new to the series like Kugutsu
>Combos are back, which are better and more interesting than united attack
>Showstopper, which rebalance a huge problem SSG had when it came to actor disparity between enemy and allies and make single bosses actually threatening without being absurd blocks of stats like the scarlet fiends used to be
>New Overdrive mechanic to further rebalance combos and showstoppers
>Spells are handled better than SSG and casters in general are more balanced and less samey, especially since you're no longer forced into staves
>More weapon classes than SSG, coupled with being able to equip more than one weapon again and having a limit list of tech slots character building ends up being a lot more interesting
>Much higher enemy variety, also more interesting and varied humanoids
>Overall greatly expanded core mechanics with more conditionals, more AoE types etc.
>No healing whatsoever
>Better BR formula compared to SSG
>You're now able to run teams with less than five people and not get punished for that
>Formations are a bit more polished
>Equipment system is deeper now that items have special affixes, on top of mechs working as usual
And then there's generally more interesting progression on replays due to the new NG+ system, every world has special gimmicks in terms of progression and world interaction, campaigns are shorter without sacrificing the roleplay elements, it's just a more polished version of SSG gameplay wise, even if the overall structure is fairly different so it doesn't really make SSG obsolete, but the improvements are there.

>>713546118
The strongest Fairy is level 65 Nahobeeho and the strongest Haunt is level 60 Kudalak.

The strongest Deity is level 93 Baal, the strongest Fury is level 96 Shiva and the strongest Wargod is level 94 Masakados

What the actual fuck are you talking about, retard?

>>713545031
Just go play it already, terrible LARPER

>>713546757
Bad ass, that's a lot of good changes. Thanks for the writeup! I fucking love SSG so it's good to know SEB leans into and polishes its strengths.

>>713545436
>run out of 3 mid battle
>infinite uses
>doubles down

What makes you people so retarded?

>>713545749
And the rest of the game as well

>>713546867
If you liked SSG you're gonna love SEB purely because at a baseline it's SSG on steroids.
Again though, SSG still stands on its own because some core mechanics are different and do not exist in SEB, United attacks are no longer a thing, there's no benisons either, some things like bows do not exist in SEB etc. and the game is much more GB SaGa/Frontier flavoured while SSG is styled after the Romancing games.

>>713541552 (OP)
Why can't they ever use the number 5?

>>713546118
Demons have never been unique and as interesting as now, given they actually have affinities for certain types of skills instead of all just having.a different jpg with no functional difference

>>713547182
SMT has always used roman numerals in its titles

>>713547084
wrong, the story sucks ass and every area is a different colored sandy hallway with ruined buildings that are a snoozefest to navigate because there's no danger or risk at all. there's exactly one zone that bucks this trend, and it's the first part of the new area Vengeance added.

>its just press turn
As opposed to what? QTEs in E33? lmao

After playing several turn BASED rpgs I've come to the conclusion that the main importance for good design is having no random encounters. In any other game genre, avoiding enemies is a viable strategy. It makes no sense to force you into combat encounters. Even in situations where you want the player to be worn down by long battle sequences, you could simply have overworld enemies blocking key choke points so you HAVE to fight them.

That's not to say every new game with random encounters is bad. I liked the Octopath Traveler series, but I liked them in spite of the random encounters.

I auto attacked on high speed. shit was lame. devs know its boring that's why they let you fast forward

>>713545790
>>713545927
This is the dumbest shit I've ever seen. If you want a reflex test play a different genre. This is as bad as shoehorning in RPG mechanics in an arcadey genre like a shooter or platformer.

>>713547084
Nah, the rest of the game is just terrible. I hope Atlus will lock in and make an actually good game next time.
I loved the designs and I want to collect my demon waifus without being snoozed to death by bad writing and samey, boring locations.

>>713547810
What do you think about the Etrian Odyssey approach, where there's random encounters but a visual indicator as to how likely your next step is to land you in a battle?

>>713547810
SMT IV does it well because the enemies are still on field but the areas are tight and claustrophobic, so it’s like random but still you have a degree of control. it’s still possible to avoid them too, and it adds an element of tension when they’re fast enough to catch up to you while running away

>>713547810
Yeah, it's absolutely a cancerous mechanic. It's understandable with old games where it was done due to technical limitations, but modern games have no excuse in that regard

>>713547810
>>713548025
>>713548104
EO and SJ are a pretty good argument against this, there's no point in making encounters non-random if the dungeon is corridors anyway

>>713545178
Neither of those games are fun, and one of them is an ironic meme.

>>713547971
Yup, filtered.

>>713548025
I haven't played EO but it's at least a little better than completely random encounters. I'd prefer it if there were more control to it.

>>713548056
This is ideal, even the part where some enemies can outrun you. It makes the overworld section more engaging instead of just "walk until you trigger the random encounter". What you want to do is encourage exploration, which is very important in an RPG. In a game with random encounters, you're actively discouraged from exploring.

>>713548234
Even in a corridor dungeon, setting up encounters like this at least lets you "clear out" a section so you don't have to worry about it anymore. In a traditional random encounter game, you're always running into shit so you never want to go back and look around, you just want to beeline to the end.

>>713548234
Even when dungeon is corridors, I would prefer to see enemy model.
Having enemy appear out of thin air when you make a step is immersion breaking. Unless they are invisible by design, or it is implied to be ambush.

>>713546818
Stat totals in modern SMT are retarded, with Light and Dark aligned demons having basically the same totals as Neutral demons. Leveling up and manipulating their skills is ridiculously easy because everyone can inherit everything now, and affinities don't mean much considering the resources that you're given.
>>713547208
A mere band-aid solution to the problem of any demon being able to inherit anything that modern SMT created in the first place. Inheritance in the older games is affected by the demon's personal characteristics so there was no reason to have affinities in the first place. Atlus just simplified all that stuff for the casuals because clearly the average person is too stupid to understand that demons without a sword can't learn or use sword skills without a big number to spell it out for them.
>instead of all just having.a different jpg with no functional difference
Yep. Instead, now they are 3D models with no functional differences.

Name a better turn based jrpg released on ps5 in the last 5 years. And no, Expedition 33 doesnt count (played it snd it was mid mechani wise)

>>713541552 (OP)
This isn't true of all of them, but a number of indie RPGs feel completely uninterested in being RPGs and any RPG elements feel like some concession on the developer's part. OFF is the absolute worst for that.

>>713550203
I don't get why OFF is popular. I like RPGs and it felt like an absolute slog

>>713550172
There are no RPGs better than SMTVV in recent years.
E33 is trash with flashy bullshit to trick idiots into thinking its good.

>>713550442
The setting is unique, and some 4th wall breaking is interesting for 2011.
I couldn't stomach it due to absolutely abysmal gameplay, and it's actually a game that made me despise random encounters.
Unfortunately, remake didn't fix anything at all

>>713550442
It has a good aesthetic and some novelty for its time, though a lot of its novelties, particularly its meta elements, have been done much better since. Also, maybe this says more about me than it does OFF or its fans, but sometimes when I play an older game that's a bit niche I come away from it with the impressions that many of its fans didn't play the game at all. OFF is one of them, and it's easy to imagine fans just seeing art and reading an overview of it on a wiki and thinking it sounds cool and considering themselves fans from that, while not having to go through the weak aspects you're faced with when actually playing it.

>>713550172
Romancing SaGa 2: Revenge of the Seven
Trails from Zero

>>713553193
Stopped reading there, RoTS is legitimately worse than the 1993 original

>>713541552 (OP)
Indie devs learn game design through card games and think turn based games are all TCGs at the core. Very few have played RPGs for long enough or played the good ones to recognize what actually works. A good turn based system is also a massive normie filter because it requires abstract thinking on the same level as basic mathematics, which are unironically far too hard for your usual normie to wrap their head around. I mean it too.
Once you understand the growth of gaming goes hand in hand with the casualization of games in service of normies you begin understanding why companies become allergic to the idea of turn based games that aren't simplistic to a fault and expressly straightforward with a few gimmicks to keep the monkeys impressed. VV falls somewhere there. A complete regression after Apocalypse, and for a reason. Atlus learned a lot from Persona 5.

>>713550172
>PS5
Hard naming stuff for a console with no games. Disgaea 7 and DQ3HD I guess. Goddamn this gen sucks, just get Resonance of Fate or something.

>>713546262
Eh I'm in act 3 now and I'm currently leaning into a defensive build. I've been shit at parrying and dodging through a lot this game. You can definitely build into defensive play. You'll want to throw some dodges and Parries in of course since you need AP economy but you can mitigate your reliance on them.

>>713547810
>>713548025
EO kinda does both since normal mobs are random but the most dangerous enemies are visible and avoidable.

SMTVV is so fucking good.
Fuck do I wish that they did more than just the Marici DLC before fucking off.

>>713547810
The answer is to have random encounters but limit the amount of heals and items players can carry. And make the dungeons really fucking deep. DRPGs as a whole prove how valuable random encounters can be when balanced well.

>>713554556
VV FUCKING SUCKS GIVE ME APOCALYPSE 2

>>713541552 (OP)
>picrel
V has the worst gameplay out of all the press turn megaten games.

Omori has perfectly fun combat and it's turn-based.

>>713557091
lol. lmao.

>>713557121
What?

>>713554709
A IV duology remake would be nice

>>713552060
You're right, OFF is 100% one of those "communities" that's almost entirely secondaries. Probably even moreso than Touhou, but I bet even most of those guys have played a fan game or two.

>>713559439
Worst part is, it's also one of those communities who are retarded enough to pay $35 for an inferior remake of a free game.

>daily SMTV damage control thread
Trannies

>>713541552 (OP)
Japanese indie rpgs are fun, eg picrel and ASTLIBRA. Western indie rpgs operate under the assumption that turn based combat is outdated and boring so you have to inject gay shit like minigames into the combat or offer some additional mechanics like dating sim elements.

>>713561921
>so you have to inject gay shit like minigames into the combat or offer some additional mechanics like dating sim elements.
So, exactly the same shit Japanese JRPG's have been doing for decades prior?

>>713554357
Another thing that I think makes random encounters work in Etrian Odyssey is that it's not structured in a way where you have an endless stock of resources so it makes even easy battles feel meaningful because the price for making them easy is how they drain your resources. Forcing you to go through random encounters that can be pretty threatening without resources lends well to how you set out on excursions rather than doing entire dungeons in one go, it's not like how it can be in games where random encounters feel bad where the fights are just a nuisance and nothing more. It's a very different kind of game, but I feel like if enemies were easily avoidable then EO would end up in a similar situation you get with Dark Souls where you can just run past every enemy. You can't do that in EO and that makes your limited resources feel a lot more meaningful and feeds into the game making you do these repeated ventures into the dungeon, and that structure is a big part of the game's appeal to me.