>reputation is now account wide, grinding it for every character does not take years anymore
>most gear is account wide, way too easy to gear alts
>too much catch up gear lets way too many people get into M+ and raids
>adventure guide handholding players into what activities they can do
Game is ruined, it's way too convenient now

>>713830283 (OP)
I was always against excessive catch up mechanics with the goal of making leveling alts easier because it diminishes the value of your time spent on your main and makes playing whatever the current meta is much more favored since you do not need a lot of time investment to gear up a new alt. I remember all the times players complained about Legion being alt unfriendly and every time Blizzard caved to those demands, the game suffered, especially in the games RPG aspects which WoW in its current state is in now way a RPG. I can’t expect the trash who still play this game to have good taste.

>>713830875
Exactly, very well said. Game is getting way too convenient now and this is ruining it. The entire reason why people play MMORPGs is to grind and put an effort to earn things.

no one is forcing you to shuffle gear from your main to alts, the fact that you think this is a problem simply indicates that you lack the willpower not to take the easy path when it's put in front of you

>>713830875
Is in no* way

>>713831047
>nooo my game is not easy you can just purposefully not use the mechanics available to you and make it as hard as you want!

This game is truly being ruined.

The current season has M+ and raids that are so good, but so fucking good, that they take the fun away out of the dungeons and raids of previous expansions.

>>713830283 (OP)
Games series being made more and more casual/streamlined is bad. Games being streamlined/casual from the get go is fine. This CHANGES ITS GENRE. Modern Themepark MMOs may as well be a completely diffrrent genre from Old School MMOs.

what kind of faggot plays male draenei or night elves
nigga just go suck dicks noone cares its 2025
go get your back blown out in a bathroom
least then i wont see your faggotry

>>713830283 (OP)
you still can't get anything meaningful without months and months worth of investment because the entire dogshit game is designed around timegating and everyone receiving their shit at the same exact time now

This is why FFXIV is the best game. It is not too good, but also not too bad. It is just generally mediocre in a pleasant way.

>>713832052
No its not
its not true
ITS NAHT TROOO
now shutup and do your chores so you can pull the weekly slot machine for gear

>>713830283 (OP)
SLOPA

>>713830283 (OP)
It should be inconvenient in a fun way. Leveling for end game raids is a perfect example. It should be inconvenient to get from a new account to max level, but it should be fun to do so.

>>713830283 (OP)
The people still playing WoW are not MMO players, same with most Blizzard employees. Their first 'mmo' might have been MoP at the earliest, so they have no idea what made them popular to begin with.

>>713830875
>>713830987
Side effect of completely invalidating all previous content every major patch cycle. "Wowkillers" got caught in this trap and couldn't keep up, because its not sustainable unless you have blizzbux.

>>713832390
>"Wowkillers" got caught in this trap and couldn't keep up, because its not sustainable unless you have blizzbux.
Honestly this is the biggest thing. Any new MMO trying to model itself off the WoW model is going to fail. Unironically they'd have a better chance following the OSRS design philosophy.
>New content released for range of levels, not just max
>No yearly release expansion style content, it's just designed, shown, and released at a 'Done when its done' type cadence
It seems like it'd be a lot easier for a dev team to do it like that as well, I don't get why more MMO's don't do it.

>>713830283 (OP)
Game has been ruined since they introduced flying in TBC

>>713830283 (OP)
Play HC classic tho

>>713834014
Mm maybe but dragonriding fixed it.

>Janny babysitting retard WoW thread

Just got cutting edge a few night ago. I honestly feel like the game is in the best shape it has been in a long time mechanics wise and with housing coming up for casuals to sink their teeth into the game seems very healthy. The only really core problems are see are leveling/ fresh starts for new people being a wacky time jumping clusterfuck and most of the end game stories being still very california writer tier but that seems to be being phased out slowly

>>713830283 (OP)
yes. without inconveniences the game is functionally no different from a lobby based game and the mmo aspect is only there as a justification to charge a monthly fee. korea has already seen this dilemma to its logical conclusion and just make 4 player lobby based games but call them mmos to justify the cash shop.

>Bot thread

>>713830283 (OP)
original concept for MMOs was simply living as your character in a living fantasy world. "conveniences" are more often than not in opposition to that, and diminishes the qualities that make a mmo what it is in the first place. Diablo style loot was introduced which while fun on its own, lead the genre down the path of having the mmo part of the game just be a waiting room for the 5 man dungeons. Instancing also kills the mmo, and its crazy that the standardized pattern is splitting the world up into channels in addition to instanced dungeons. Just make a lobby game at that point.

>>713830283 (OP)
All of those changes are for the best. Rep is a fucking chore if you have to do it on multiple characters. Gear has no reason NOT to be account wide, it gets people into the content faster.
>Too many people get into M+ and raids
So people get to play more of the game, what's the problem?
>Adventure guide handholding players
As it should because unless you're a fucking autismo who keeps up to date on literally every change in WoW, it's nice to know the things you have access to.

What we need next is a complete deletion of the timegating and the game will be significantly more acceptable and fair to its playerbase. You can't sit here and defend timegating. It's purposely designed to extend sub time. It's scummy as fuck.

>>713830283 (OP)
>shills try opposite day shill tactic
nice try ranjeesh

>>713830283 (OP)
Yes. Inconvenience should be designed such that players together can overcome it.

>>713830283 (OP)
True MMORPGs should be very careful about QoL stuff. WoW has not been a true MMORPG in a very, very long time. Flying effectively killed any sort of level design they could do in the open world and automatic dungeon matchmaking drove further nails into the MMORPG coffin. At this point there's no sense in holding back on QoL shit for the wretches who are still subbed to warcraft.

>>713830283 (OP)
Sometimes a get an sudden urge to play classic
Its like a drug
Than i level to 20-30 on a Private Server and it goes away for about a year

>>713834801
What? The thread is criticizing the game.

>>713836081
>You can't sit here and defend timegating. It's purposely designed to extend sub time. It's scummy as fuck.
Or it gives you a reason to do M+, otherwise you can fully gear your character in heroic in 6 hours doing delves and call it a day.

If you want to fully gear your character in one week you are forced to do some real content and that's a good thing.

>>713830283 (OP)
I think games should just decide what they are instead of trying to appeal to everyone.

Make one server inhumanly grindy
Then make one server where you can just make a full build character from the get-go.

Is that so hard?

>>713830283 (OP)
Tedium and Convenience aren't the same thing

>automatically match players into dungeons together
+ Convenient, quick, gets you into the content you want fast
- Removes socialization entirely (A good thing for mmo jannies, they don't have to worry about players hurting eachother's feelings as much)
>sync your turbo9000 hour solo grind across alts
+ Saves you time for something you've already done probably 3 times before, and lets you play your main and do things with other people again
- No longer keep the grind addicts subscribed in their own personal hell for months when theres no actual new content

So its plain to see why companies choose this route.
I just hope PSO2 and XIV popularized the "one character, all classes" thing enough for future franchises' attempt into the genre. Both could still do way better about alts.
>just buy our level and story skip llollmmmaoooo ($50)
Oh right, that's why.

>>713830283 (OP)
>noooooo my shittty game
Get fucked

>>713842262
People don't want answers or solutions they just want to complain.

>>713842379
>- Removes socialization entirely
No it doesn't
'Socialization' primarily happens inside dungeons

>>713843139
>stop typing and attack retard we're going to wipe
your response?

>>713830283 (OP)
>>713831856
>>713832205
>m+ and raids
the majority of Warcrafts players do not engage in these activities, they are largely casuals. not as casual as ffxiv but still pretty casual

>>713842379
>I just hope PSO2 and XIV popularized the "one character, all classes" thing enough for future franchises' attempt into the genre
But that mechanic is awful. It ruins class fantasy for me. It also ruins the experience of creating alts.

There are inconvenient things that are a pleasure to do and WoW nails it. For example:

>default UI is lackluster but you can customize every nook and cranny of it
>only one character per class but creating alts is fun and immersive

>>713830283 (OP)
I kind of dont like how easy it is to get gear thats not garbage now. You can get hero gear pretty easily without doing mythics and the jump from hero to mythical gear isn't worth the trouble.

>>713843193
run to the exit

>>713830283 (OP)
People don't understand that the 'inconvenience' in old MMOs was what fostered the community

you NEEDED to talk to people and make friends in old MMOs because you needed help to accomplish things, communication was actually vital. Now with all the 'quality of life' infrastructure the game has you barely need to speak to anyone to play the game. hop in a PUG, pick your role, and just exist near people until the job is done.

>>713843406
>You can get hero gear pretty easily without doing mythics and the jump from hero to mythical gear isn't worth the trouble
I mean this depends on what you want to do with the game.

Hero gear lets you breeze through casual content. But you can't use it to do mythic raids or m+ above a ~+10.

So it depends on what you want to do. They made it possible for casuals to ignore mythic and that's a good thing. But if you want to do more than casual content you still need better gear.

>>713843297
>It ruins class fantasy for me.
This I can understand, actual valid complaint. I too have different "looks" i want to use for say a knight vs a mage

Having that system for people who don't care while also syncing alts so you can do both would be ideal. My biggest gripe is having to stop a conversation and be like "hey hold on im gonna be on my alt message BIGDICKMAGE in a minute"
Of course this never actually happens because the modern generation only talks on discord anyway

>>713843827
>My biggest gripe is having to stop a conversation and be like "hey hold on im gonna be on my alt message BIGDICKMAGE in a minute"
But this is super cool and only takes a minute

I think the problem is when the game has 12+ classes and you have to create 12 alts. But WoW also solves this by giving you a global experience boost for every character you max. After 10 of them you max the boost at +50% and creating alts becomes trivial.

Seriously WoW solved the genre way more than people give it credit for. Maybe it's because I played it for decades but when I go to other MMORPGs I notice the lack of "wisdom" in its design at every single step.

>>713830283 (OP)
you can't go back 70% of the playerbase is women now

>>713846181
I didn't believe this until I actually played it last week. Holy shit so many women. And they are hungry for cock

>>713830875
This is pure cuck mentality. All the characters are you technically, you already did that shit once and it doesn't meaningfully change enough between characters. Don't go around bitching because other people aren't as broken as you are and addicted to skinner box shit.

Nobody wants to admit that MMORPGs need progression wipes, but yet everyone will happily create twenty alts and join every fresh-start server.

>>713830283 (OP)
Cry me a river, bitch.

>>713830875
And the gear will be invalidated next expansion so the only way to win is to not play

The audience for the older, harder game is gone. WoW needs to attract zoomers and alphas into a 21 year old game or it's dead. They have to make it as easy and braindead as possible for the TikTok generation.

>>713832390
What made WoW popular, and the single most popular MMO of all time at that, was its convenience. Every single thing self-styled grognards like to decry as the "death of WoW/MMOs in general" is what popularized WoW in the first place.
No perma death, no loss of items or money on death, the ability to reach max level via solo play, vastly reduced grinding (compared to all contemporary MMOs of the time), actual quests that last all the way to max level. To name a few. Babbies first MMO, and it let it dominate everything else on the market.

>>713830283 (OP)
Some mats should be account wide and the game telling you "hey in your gear and level bracket people do this and this so you might want to do that" isn't bad
Rep grinds are also always fucking retarded and annoying and them being account wide is also perfectly fine.
I'm against catch up gear in most scenarios and I hate transferable gear in general tho fuck those

>>713847210
what

are you ok

>>713847451
Zoomers are not playing WoW.
Aside from that obvious mistake, Classic exists, is primarily played by internet boomers in their 30s and 40s, and is easier than Retail by several orders of magnitude. Old people are the number one supporters of more convenience and less challenge.

>>713843509
The community got shit, Anon. Back when WoW was new, we hardly had to deal with brown revanchists, Chinese bots, Russian hackers, unironic communists, LGBT, feminists (In digital spaces, iPhones hadn't happened yet so women didn't know about the internet) or even really casuals. Computers were still largely nerdshit and, at most, normies would have a console or two and talk about Asscreed or Halo CE.

In a community that lacks all of those things, you can jump in a public chat and talk to other people about builds, quests, or other game-related stuff and receive a reasonable answer. Now, the community is 5% people who belong there and 95% all those things. Nobody WANTS to talk anymore, the QoL is all that's keeping these spaces going other than Sunk Cost Fallacy on steroids.

Blizzard is doing everything to casualize their theme park MMO to no end except the one thing that would actually be a positive change: Undo the FOMO "no longer available" shit.

>>713830283 (OP)
>Too easy to gear alts
I don't see this as a problem, there should be incentives for playing alts, otherwise you'll have people playing one or two classes throughout the whole expansion

>>713848374
Anon the community was flooded with casuals because the game was casualized, not the other way around

>>713830283 (OP)
yes, life itself is inconvenient

>>713848983
The internet was flooded with casuals, fren, and so all the spaces on the internet also became flooded with casuals. In 2004, when WoW first launched, the entire sum total of the internet was limited to largely white, male and American users with a smaller percentage of Japanese computer nerds and hobbyists. There were no casuals, because no part of the internet was casualized yet. In such an environment the companies making games had a financial incentive not to cater to casuals, because there was no casual audience for them to cater to.

Now that casuals are on the internet, they far outnumber hobbyists and are always going to be catered to, because no matter how you slice the numbers casuals are always going to be the majority fanbase for everything. We stopped gatekeeping, and we can't ever go back. The communities we had on MMOs in 2004 can never be a thing again, unless you're willing to run a game on a basis that would probably be political and financial suicide. It would go something like this.

> NO BLACKS, NO WOMEN, NO HISPANICS, NO COMMIES, NO POLITICS OF ANY KIND AND GOLD FARMING SHILLS GET THE ROPE

Which would of course just farm a billion tons of ragebait and then burst into flame as the first vidya ever to be critically panned by all normies before even being released. The players would love it of course, but we can't have nice things anymore.

>>713847091
Nobody wants to lose shit they spent a month grinding for only to do it again you fucking retard, nobody does achievements or long term grinds on private servers and every single one of those has boosted rates to begin with.

>>713830283 (OP)
Shared inconvenience is the foundation of social interaction. Purely convenient communication is entirely transactional, and doesn't build connections.

>>713849876
THIS! MMO fucking need friction so other players are a benefit and not a liability. I always watched my tone when interacting with Wizards and Priests in EQ, because befriending would be a great benefit for me, especially priest friends who brave mobs to rez me. Nowadays I don't even talk to people in MMOs, because doing so is a net negative 90% of the time. Death means nothing, the world means nothing, all trading is global and server wide, the game will find players for me if I enter the matchmaking queue, PvP is opt-in. Other players are the biggest waste of time in modern MMOs, this genre is fucking garbage right now.

>>713830283 (OP)
did they really stole the invictus login screen?

>>713830283 (OP)
There's a fine line between inconvenience and quality of life, that's for sure. If you dumb down too many things, it removes all the stakes. Playing EVE Online though, there's a lot of times I think the game shoots itself in the foot at actually being a game.

>Universe is broken up into solar systems, each one is a separate instance.
>Traveling through each system takes about 30 seconds (Fastest ship for travel only) or up to a minute and a half.
>Traveling great distances obviously eats up a lot of time and isn't fully automated, or rather turning on autopilot not only slows you down but makes you easier to kill in open PvP if you're carrying something valuable.
>As a result, people on opposite ends of the galaxy don't regularly form groups because travel time is prohibitive, after you spend 20-30 minutes traveling to meet them to play, you probably don't have a lot of time to actually do things.

>Your ship is an item purchased from EVE's auction house (market), along with all the equipment and ammo your ship uses.
>Getting a new one or resupplying means a trip to the market which may be several jumps away.
>But as a result, everything has value because it took time to acquire and move.

>Death results in losing your ship, your cargo, and your equipment.
>This is less a problem for money (For most established players) and more a problem that it simply takes a lot of time to reship and travel back out to where you were.
>This is sort of akin to playing on a PvP server, dying in Un'goro Valley, and being forced to respawn in Stormwind unless you take measures to reduce that.

>Content is released with deliberately lacking information on how to do it.
>Only recently has the game even suggested a ship type for new things, so people commonly didn't bother with new stuff until a youtuber wrote a guide for it.
>Even so, many players gatekeep the information because the value of content is based on how many people can do it (Hide info=less people competing).

>>713830283 (OP)
I tend to disagree, I'm usually pretty critical of Blizzard/WoW but I think TWW is a very good expansion thus far. I'm not a fan of tier lists or anything so I'm not going to try to rank it, but I think pretty much all the changes they've made are great. I think Delves are amazing content even in their underutilized form right now. Solo players have been asking for solo-oriented progression options for YEARS. Letting solo players grind their ass off with weeklies to eventually earn their mythic transmogs I think is quite nice.

>>713847091
diablo 2 had ladders a quarter century ago, some of us always knew

>>713843193
play an MMO where you can attack and type without being penalized for both maybe? use VOIP maybe?

>>713847091
progression wipes kill MMORPGs
fuck off retard

>>713855549
>we've returned to "just use discord lmao"
great work

>>713830283 (OP)
>>most gear is account wide, way too easy to gear alts
This is actually a good thing, dipshit. Soulbound needed to be changed to Accountbound 20 fucking years ago.
Agree with everything else in your post though. WoW is gay and MMO is a dogshit solved genre contaminated with pay to win filth.

>>713855549
NTA. but it doesn't matter. Nobody is talking dungeons in games with matchmaking.

In TBC/Wrath you could just do a few dungeons for pre-raid BIS. In fact, some of the badge gear was only marginally behind BIS. Gearing in WoW has *always* been easy.

>>713839541
I solved this permanently by uninstalling the client and deleting all my addons. Any time I have a desire to play this piece of shit, I remind myself how tedious it is to get all the addons and set everything up and it goes away.

>>713856447
>add-ons
>classic

Part of the allure of mmorpgs is showing off you achieved “hard” things. Whether it’s tedious, technically challenging, or something else. The easier it gets, the less of an accomplishment it is.

I

>>713849740
>and every single one of those has boosted rates to begin with
https://rsc.vet/

RSC Preservation is as close to 1:1 as it's possible for a private server to be. 1x rates, no QOL (discounting an optional, unofficial [but supported] client) other than some extremely minor interface changes.

>>713856706
You sure could have picked a better example than 44 players and 850 bots

>>713856512
>>classic
I've never played "classic". I've only ever played vanilla private servers, and not since before official classic came out, which I obviously never touched. I haven't given blizz money since before cata launched.

>>713856870
right but neither vanilla or "classic" need add-ons. like what u need to weak aura when to press your one button? kek

>>713856957
you cannot see threat in classic without an addon

>>713856858
The only server on that list that matters is the one that says RSC Preservation, where bots aren't allowed. Cabbage is their QoL server nobody plays because most people play RSC for clout in the first place. 2001 is turbo hardmode where everywhere but Lumbridge is PVP flagged and there's a weird magic system.

>>713830283 (OP)
>sweats big mad that normal players don't have to treat the game like a second job
I dare you to come up with a reasonable justification for making the game inconvenient.

>>713856957
>right but neither vanilla or "classic" need add-ons
I refuse to play without OneBag and Xperl. WoW's vanilla UI is absolute dogshit.

>>713857051
>36 players

>>713830283 (OP)
Why the fuck are you still playing WoW?

>>713857180
Zoomers can't handle RSC, it's all older millennials and boomers so naturally game is ded. It does experience some booms every now and then, I've seen peak go well past 100. 30-40 is fine, it's a small map with not much to do in it, most efficient activity nodes will be taken up by somebody somewhere.

>>713857359
You sure type a lot to say literally nothing while only proving my initial point further.

>>713830283 (OP)
I tried playing recently after a few years and the hoops you have to jump through for gear upgrades are just fucking grating, I have never had an issue with just spamming one dungeon over and over for a specific pre-raid drop or anything like that, the fuck is this shit? the game just gets worse and worse.

>>713830283 (OP)
Traditional MMO's aren't it anymore. The future is long form cooperative games like Vindictus or Destiny with semi-mmo features like coming across people in the world or doing large group instanced content together

>>713857474
You don't know shit though. Having 500+ people would just make the game impossible to play. People don't play RSC now like they played it 25 years ago. People aren't retarded 11 year olds anymore. The server can't handle 500 metagamers. 30-40 is fine. If anything, Preservation needs additional worlds. If someone is mining gold, nobody else on the entire server can mine gold.

>>713846819
>All the characters are you technically
Wow, you manage to represent everything wrong with not just MMOs, but RPGs as a whole, good job!

>>713858637
>The future is two dead games
No. The future is PSO/GW1. Always online lobby games with instanced combat missions and dressing up in the lobby.

>>713846819
You are playing the wrong genre if this is your take holy shit. Everyone post 2006 doesn't know what an RPG is. Fuck off with your dogshit fake genre you brought in the 2010s

>>713830283 (OP)
WoW has like 5 different official versions at any given time now. If you don't like retail being too "convenient" then go play one of the old ass xpacs.

>>713858865
So exactly what they said

>>713857056
Sweats aren't the ones upset about it. They are glad to be able to play the endgame without having to go through tons of boring chores beforehand. It's the casuals who suck too much ass at the game to participate in difficult content and are mad that there isn't a daily/weekly snoozefest quest grind to make themselves more powerful.

>>713830283 (OP)
you can play classic
I like my mmo being more like a game than a job :V

i preferred maplestory, measuring your grind in 0.0x% per hour, losing 10% of exp on death because your tiny inventory can only hold so many potions

>>713847531
this

>>713830283 (OP)
>not playing FFXI on a private server
WoW kiddies have no idea what a grind is

>>713848775
>people playing one or two classes throughout the whole expansion
What is the problem with this? TWO characters are not enough?

>>713849740
>Nobody wants to lose shit they spent a month grinding for only to do it again you fucking retard
You are only "losing" the power to beat enemies in 1 second... because the expansion has stronger enemies

seriously this debate is retarde

>>713859225
You gaslighting faggot, look at the fucking OP

>>713859096
No, because there is no shared world, it's just open lobbies.

>>713861689
that's what destiny and vindictus both are too, instanced zones

wow is a corpse stop playing it

>>713830283 (OP)
Retail > Classic slop

>>713863276
I play singleplayer on my own private server however the fuck I want

>>713863364
seek help

>>713863402
If I wanted help with the game, I'd play retail or on populated private servers.

Are all titles accountwide yet? I haven't played in awhile but I though it was gay there were certain titles I couldn't use.

>>713830283 (OP)
MMOs as a genre only ever became popular and successful off the novelty of having huge worlds and being able to interact with people online in real time.

>>713836081
Please understand, megapoopsockers are losing the one thing that gives their lives meaning!

>>713863541
The lobby is a direct response to
>like coming across people in the world

>>713863541
Yeah, the game was window dressing, it was always neat as a messaging platform, it was more interesting than just shitposting in IRC.

When will MMOniggers realize that other people have life outside video game unlike them?

>>713863606
Woops, meant for >>713863041

>>713830283 (OP)

>>713864267
hub zone where everyone is and the rest of world being large sectioned instanced zones where you can occasionally see people is better than gw1's there's nobody else in the world but the hub zone imo

>>713864830
Yeah, that what I was getting at. There will only be the hub/lobby where you see other players. Then you either party up in the lobby or go solo and do instanced missions/quests. Anyone who plays modern MMOs can see how fucking empty and devoid of life the world outside of popular cities are.

>>713849359
Whites ARE the casuals.
The tryhards of any mmo back then (and now) are all either asians, brazilians or filipinos.

>>713830283 (OP)
Could be a bad decision to stop serving shit if you predisposed your playerbase to eat shit for so many years.

they could stand to be a little inconvenient again
half the fun of the golden age of MMORPGs was the community filling in the gaps where the devs did not provide
before party finder existed people had to talk to eachother to group up and places where people gathered would form organically
you'd look up the spot on the map and there's no markers or landmarks named by the devs, so over time the community would make up names for these spots
really killed the experience to lose shit like that

>>713830283 (OP)
The consequence of QoL is often the realism and immersion of the game/setting.
>easy teleport for everyone, game feels like maps or sections, not a world
>dungeon finder
>makes parties easy, but kills community, no longer incentivized to keep your reputation intact
>bgs being realm-wide
>fast easy pvp, but you lose the sense of community attached to server pvp, and learning who the best and worst of the opposing faction are, rivalries die, or are diminished to people who world pvp and gank
>catch up gear
>makes it easier to gear and play with friends, but diminishes the value of time spent in game getting your gear.
Also the easy teleportation, flying and dlc mini-maps are why imo classic is so popular. The slower travel and one massive map really gives off a feel of adventure and immersion.

>>713865582
> why imo classic is so popular
classic isnt popular though? all the versions of classic together dont come close to retail

>>713830875
Good take
Xiv is the polar opposite side of the spectrum, where literally every player character can be anything at the click of a button. It strongly diminishes your own choices as a player and makes nonsense the concept of a 'main'.

When your game is purely about climbing levels and getting gear instead of playing it to have fun in a virtual world with people (friendly or not) it was doomed as an MMO from the start

>>713846819
This is a perfect example of why most games have no challenge anymore. Current day zoomers and arrested development millennials that think similar to younger people are constantly trying to self insert, when that’s never been the core of any medium. Some games are for self inserting, and others are for role playing as your character.

>>713843139
>No it doesn't. 'Socialization' primarily happens inside dungeons
Like many retards, you fail to realize that the act of forming a party and accessing the content is part of the adventure. The social dynamics you have when you are trying to personally assemble 5 or 6 people into a fighting force capable of defeating some given content and simply being thrust into that content alongside them are very different.

>>713855973
>This is actually a good thing, dipshit. Soulbound needed to be changed to Accountbound 20 fucking years ago.
Why?
>Diminishes the ability of gear crafters to make money on people who want alts, harming the game economy
>Reduces the difficulty of gearing alts, increasing the likelihood of people juggling alts in relation to the meta
Just because it is convenient for you personally doesn't make it a good thing for the game as a whole.

>>713867013
>>Diminishes the ability of gear crafters to make money on people who want alts, harming the game economy
EZ, just make dungeon drop dogshit Accountbound, keep profession dogshit Soulbound and make it better to make it worth actually making.

"Soulbind" was the first wave of cancer killing MMOs

>>713867168
Mostly agree, I understand why it's there but it's like 95% AIDS and only serves to increase subscription lengths due to it artificially increasing grind times. Only faggot sweats will disagree.

>>713867168
I'm glad my petMMO doesn't do that shit

>>713866804
Explain what challenge there is in repeating the same pointlessly drip fed daily grind content you already did.

MMORPGs only have a future with advanced enough AIs that we probably won't see in our lifetime.

>>713867695
You could just keep playing your main instead of an alt you know

>>713830283 (OP)
>Should MMORPGs be inconvenient purposeully?
Yes, but not in the way you think they do.
An MMO should strive to be a virtual world for your character to exist in and a place for you to build a community around yourself first and a "game" second. That's why things like being able to instantly teleport anywhere or reduce your interaction with the world to just clicking through menus while sitting in front of the auction in town are bad.
The things you listed that just reduce the amount of grind a player has to go through are whatever.

>>713830283 (OP)
MMO's shouldn't exist because they're dogshit aimed at the dregs.

>>713868307
The mechanics of the latter help enforce the former
Suppose you could make an alt that was equivalent in level and gear to your main instantly because you "already grinded for that" on your main. This cheapens the importance of the choice you made when picking your main class in the first place

>>713866874
>spamming LF1M tank last spot for an hour is socializing
brain damage

WoW has one thing over FFXIV that is absolutely essential to playing an MMO.

Get ready for it.

It has an online portal that ACTUALLY WORKS. Yes, that's right! Unlike FFXIV, I can actually give the company money and play the game!

>WOW players

nothing but a bunch of niggers, trannies and furfags playing that game.

>>713858865
PSO killed itself/on life support with NGS though and nobody knows about GW1 anymore.

>>713868638
Niggers only play fifa and cod on their stolen playstations

>>713855549
This isnt 2004 anymore. This isnt FFXI where you attack once every 10 seconds and then sit for 2 minutes between each mob. Thats not fun gameplay. Those games will never exist again.

>>713868505
>waiting in party finder queue for an hour is playing the game
Wow look at that we both interpreted the exact same underlying issue in the most unfavorable way to the other person's argument to make it look bad
This is very intelligent

I can't believe aquafag's blatant reverse psychology advertisement worked

Maybe i was wrong about you aquafag you are a genius.

>>713855549
Personally I think this is why an element of 'downtime' is actually very important to mmo design. If you never have time to type you will never interact.

>>713868690
Dofus still exists.

>>713830283 (OP)
>Should MMORPGs be inconvenient purposeully
To a degree they should have friction such as lack of player grouping support, challenging but not ball-busting overworld content and being locked to one server so you're forced to deal with the community.

>>713868832
Dofus is a multi-player turn based rpg. Its an oddball to begin with

>>713830283 (OP)
>a game I pay $15/month should aggressively waste my time because that's how it was when I was a kid

>>713868698
>waiting in party finder queue for an hour is playing the game
You're supposed to go off and do other shit while you're in queue, and the queue is for anti-social people who don't have friends anyway.

>>713868698
rdf rarely takes more than 15 min and you can just do whatever you were previously doing while waiting while the group leader has to spam LFM in orgrimmar
by the way they brought your beloved piece of shit system in reverse with maze+ where you get to apply over and over for groups or make your own and still wait for a tank to show up except you dont have to spam LFM
you nillers need to take the rose tinted glasses off and realize times have changed and the community is different now. wow is no longer a chatroom when 100s of trooncords dedicated to each and every topic imaginable exist

>>713868482
Not doing it punishes players who want to reroll for whatever reason. Once you make an alt you quickly realize just how good those alt-friendly features really are

>>713868647
PSO 1, not NGSlop

>>713868958
>rdf rarely takes more than 15 min
If there's a tank player to fill the group,, which based on the premise of your disingenuous previous post isn't the case
>and you can just do whatever you were previously doing while waiting while the group leader has to spam LFM in orgrimmar
You can just do whatever in a zone while sending LFM messages
You are just a zoomer retard, simple as

>>713868482
>This cheapens the importance of the choice you made when picking your main class in the first place
It's a game, nobody cares. Blizzard sure as shit doesn't care because it helps keep normal people interested in the game, and therefore paying subscription.

>>713869146
I'm telling you that the ease of friction when you are 'just making an alt' isn't good for the health of a game because it dilutes the importance of who your main is.
Xiv is an extreme example of this where all player characters are mechanically the same save for the glamor they pick, because you can just press a button and be another class

>>713830283 (OP)
They could improve it, somehow

>>713830283 (OP)
can anyone explain why a new character can't just start at dornogol if one other in the warband has already done it?

>>713869662
>It's a game, nobody cares
If you don't care then you didn't want to play an MMO in the first place. Just go play some lobby rpg like Diablo instead.

>>713830875
Half the playerbase quit when they made leveling/gearing alts a full time job in Legion

>>713869786
No. I will continue to suggest QoL features. You're just going to have to cope with having an easier time playing the game.

>>713869916
*turns mmos into lobby games*
Great job Squidward, we saved the town.

>>713869746
She looks disturbingly small for a Tauren

>>713868482
>>713869740
>it dilutes the importance of who your main is
Why the fuck does that even matter? XIV's problem is that all classes/jobs within the same role are mechanically interchangeable, not that you can have all of them available on the same character.

>>713868690
>Thats not fun gameplay
If you cannot have fun without pressing a button every 2 seconds, you might have ADHD. Downtime that facilitates socializing is an important element in MMOs and something that's been largely lost in recent years.

>>713831898
>Modern Themepark MMOs may as well be a completely diffrrent genre from Old School MMOs.
There's a reason why people don't play those "old school MMOs" anymore. They just aren't very fun.

>>713870251
>Why the fuck does that even matter?

>why do your choices for your character matter in an rpg?
Dunno bro, I guess it doesn't because it inconveniences you personally. :)

Convenience is a poison pill that causes unfathomable damage you can't undo if you aren't very fucking careful with it. Because the fact is that any given player base will optimize themselves into misery given the opportunity and then cry over it afterwards after the knock-on effects from it seep into the rest of the game. And you obviously can't undo those sort of changes because convenience can only ever go in one direction or else people lose their goddamn minds.

>>713870194
Cubs wombs are BUILT for humans

>>713830283 (OP)
RetailGawds
We
Won
Bigly

>>713830283 (OP)
>Game is ruined, it's way too convenient now
it was like this from the start. WoW has been a disaster for mmos, and it started with letting people solo level.

>>713870593

You still have to level and gear all your alt jobs and then deal with gearing up the alt jobs for raiding in XIV though

test

>>713870820
well kinda. if you're switching jobs within a role the gearing process is a new weapon and MAYBE a gcd breakpoint with materia. and the gap between starter weapons for a tier and the bis weapon is far smaller than in world of warcraft

>>713870820
You are being deliberately obtuse or have literally zero frame of reference outside of xiv if you think the act of gearing or leveling a new class in that game is even slightly difficult.

>>713870539
>why do your choices for your character matter in an rpg?
Your idea of making "choices matter" is punishing players for making the "wrong choice". This type of approach only leads to people relying on guides and net-builds because they're too afraid of permanently fucking something up to experiment and try new things. There are other, better ways of giving choices meaning.

>>713871525
Is leveling and gearing difficult? No, but you still have to go through it and the only real catch-up mechanics for leveling are the bonus exp via the armory bonus and maybe your weekly challenge logs. Gearing also generally requires you to swap out your set every 10 levels starting at 50 unless you happen to be leveling within the same role type, and I can assure you you are not carrying 5 different gear sets for 5 sets of levels for 5 different role types to account for that at any given time. It is easy to acquire gear but it's not the same as it being literally thrown at you. You still have to invest a not insignificant amount of time going from 1-100 on an alt job, then spending time on your main doing roulettes to get the tomestones to gear up the alt for whatever level bracket it happens to be in. 2000 poetics isn't even enough to buy a full tomestone set for some reason so that's another small layer on top of it all.

Why do more and more posts and comments on this site feel like they are written by AI?

>>713872767
You faggots quake in your boots if a post is longer than two sentences.

>>713872767
You're a paranoid schizophrenic, your feelings can't be trusted. Also the dead internet theory is real, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

>>713871806
>Your idea of making "choices matter" is punishing players for making the "wrong choice".
You're going to interpret any negative consequence of your own choices as a "punishment," so your point is disingenuous from the start. You might as well claim you're being "punished" for having a limited amount of money, and then when you spend that money to purchase a given good, you're punished because now you can't afford everything else you could have potentially bought.

Reading all this, I think MMOs are a thing of the past not due to qol, but people just not having the time and energy for these types of games.

>>713876064
>people just not having the time and energy for these types of games
Hence the increase in QoL

>>713876064
I have too much energy for these games, they're too fucking easy and boring

>>713876932
>"people aren't eating as many apples as we'd like."
>'its okay, we used genetic engineering to turn apples into oranges. this will draw the orange crowd into the apple market.'
>"wait, are these even apples anymore?"
>'don't worry about it :)'

>>713830283 (OP)
In a real MMO you aren't able to do SHIT without other people's help, cooperation or opposition. That is how you know it's MMO or not.
Wow is not An MMO
FFXIV is not an MMO
GW2 is not an MMO

>>713867856
it serves as a deterrent for swapping classes on a whim.

>>713877429
>food analogy

>>713876064
Or maybe people just don't think it's fun to grind out the same thing 10 times in a row?

>>713877520
Why would you want to deter that?

>>713877540
>no argument

>>713877540
>>"people aren't driving as many trucks as we'd like."
>'its okay, we used engineering to turn suvs into trucks. this will draw the suv crowd into the truck market.'
>"wait, are these even trucks anymore?"
>'don't worry about it :)'
wow look it's a completely different argument now

>>713877508
I don't like being completely reliant on others in real life and especially not in video games. Just like in real life you should be able to do most things yourself.

>>713877586
Why provide an argument? It's not a good analogy, it doesn't even translate. QoL isn't making the game into something else, it's making what it already is easier to interact with.

>>713830283 (OP)
you're going to actually make me defend wow, you fucking retard

>reputation is now account wide, grinding it for every character does not take years anymore
and it's timegated, so it takes the same amount of time to finish, but now the rewards are much more tangible

>most gear is account wide, way too easy to gear alts
warbound gear that's actually worth a shit is extremely rare, most of what you'll find will be replaced by doing low level delves

>too much catch up gear lets way too many people get into M+ and raids
the catch up gear is garbage, it's not good enough for mythic raid or high keys

>adventure guide handholding players into what activities they can do
what the actual fuck is wrong with this? you want the game to be intentionally cryptic and obtuse for newer players? thank god you're not in charge of any live service games

christ, what a dogshit post

>>713877689
Just play a single player game.

>>713877875
no

>>713877576
because it dilutes the class fantasy and makes every class just a kit you swap in and out of.

>>713830283 (OP)
retail has turned into a mobile game at this point, making it easier and easier and more braindead so that the lowest of the IQ people would start playing
but they are only gonna attract more players if retail removes a monthly sub and you only have to buy expansions, kinda like GW2
its a shit game and everyone who plays it right now is a faggot
classic is okay

>>713877967
It made sense to deter it back when the game had a massive playerbase, but that isn't the case anymore. There are way more DPS's than Tanks and Healers, it makes sense to let people switch so the smaller playerbase can keep running the content without complaining that no one is willing to Tank or Heal.

>>713877830
cope harder retail tranny

>>713878025
>retail has turned into a mobile game at this point
They should do a mobile port but unironically

>>713832078
>Can't buy membership with in-game cash

How is this game still surviving?

>>713878191
Erotic Roleplaying.

>>713877705
>Why provide an argument?
It must be hard to when you don't have one.
>QoL isn't make the game into something else, it's making what it already is easier to interact with.
>>713873506 already got your number, you might as well stop posting now.

>>713843280
casuals who do what?
there is no content in the game besides m+ and raids

The game became too convenient and was ruined 15 years ago with flying mounts and dungeon finder.

>>713878129
You're an idiot.

>>713849876
Well put and severely underrated post. Especially the last 25 years have seen people become worse and worse at social interaction, dealing with boredom and coping with doing the hard stuff. More and more we just want everything to be easy and immediately stimulating without any real consequences one way or another. I guess it's in our nature to optimize for those things and all our advancements are bringing out the worst in us.

>>713878270
no one enjoyed pasting LF1M TANK for 2 hours per dungeon, fucking retard

buy an ad maye

>>713878059
>back when the game had a massive playerbase, but that isn't the case anymore.
yeah and I stopped playing when they kept making the game more gay and lame.

>>713858756
NTA but this shit looks like a glorified single player, with every other human being an obstacle with ultimate "gameplay" being grinding meaningless numbers like a mazed drone
Grim, and in a non-meme way

>>713878262
>already got your number
No you don't.
>inb4 paranoid schizophrenia

>>713877508
Yes they are, You are wrong!

>>713847381
>And the gear will be invalidated next expansion
*next patch, so every 3 months

>>713830283 (OP)
Inconvenient or not, true MMOs can't exist alongside data mining sites that find every last fucking item and its stats then sims it for 148 hours straight. The player should just be driven by his desire to explore, socialize, and power-up. He should not know exactly how to power-up so to be at the absolute maximum strength where all bosses are trivial and then need to be made 700x more difficult in a reaction to the insane unintended player power.

>hurr durr, Molten Core is so easy
No it fucking wasn't. Go in there with 39 people you're moderately acquainted with wearing dungeon blues they were lucky enough to loot after a few 3 hour long UBRS runs. No in game guide. No icy veins. No WoWhead. Youtube is limited to 7 minutes at 240p. You're figuring out Baron Geddon by yourselves over Ventrilo with 2-3 people disconnecting every 10 minutes (it's 2004). Shit's fucking hard man.

The onyxia "many dots" raid leader wasn't crazy, he was trying to coordinate 39 motherfuckers over Ventrilo and that was probably their 10th+ hour of trying overall. His reaction was very reasonable.

https://youtu.be/04gGozzKudg?si=ZrvTydfOS824Jvdc

>>713878317
yeah which is why people would join guilds and socialise and do content with guildies. pug content should be painful. retail made pugging so easy the game is nothing but bunch of antisocials doing pugs now.

>>713878317
Slaves like you ruined the game. kys

>>713859058
NTA but I have played these before, I'd rather play something new, but with the same design philosophy

>>713877967
I'm a proponent of class switching, ideally the game doesn't have classes, instead you place attribute points into stats/skills and make your own build archetype. Archeage was really cool.
Of course you shouldn't be able to switch it to whatever whenever you want but going to town and paying a fee to switch up your class is expected from a game today.

>>713878550
>I'm a proponent of class switching, ideally the game doesn't have classes, instead you place attribute points into stats/skills and make your own build archetype.

Except all that happens is one build becomes the meta and everyone uses that.
Gamers meta the fun out of every game.

>>713878425
what game has patches every 3 months that invalidates your gear?

>>713830875
No life retard

>>713878691
MMOs are a no life genre, retard.

>>713857056
Inconvenience IS the content. It feels good to accomplish something that others cant. That makes you better than the rest, that strokes your ego, that feels good. Patiance is just as valuable and commendable trait as dexterity is. If you cant process that then we cant have a conversation.
>waste of time yada yada yada
You're playing video games instead of doing technological advances that would forward humanity, you're already a waste of time.

>>713878437
>data mining sites that find every last fucking item and its stats then sims it for 148 hours straight
This, sadly.

>"Many players cannot help approaching a game as an optimization puzzle. What gives the most reward for the least risk? What strategy provides the highest chance – or even a guaranteed chance – of success? Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game."

>>713878718
Not anymore faglord, you lost

>>713878598
That only happens if you got bad developers that don't know how to properly balance a game. Players always have different preferences, some want to be ranged, some melee. sword/board, big hammer, sorcery, archery, healing.

>>713878743
>Inconvenience IS the content. It feels good to accomplish something that others cant. That makes you better than the rest, that strokes your ego, that feels good.
But not to the point where you filter out a majority of the players your business model depends upon to remain profitable so you can keep the fucking servers running.

>>713857635
Your attitude is the problem. You have an entire world to explore and your first order of buisness is reach end-game asap. Your min-maxing adhd tendecies is what ruins your experience in the first place.

>>713878758
You "won" a glorified dementia-inducing mobile game run by trannies—congrats!

>>713830283 (OP)
>>reputation is now account wide, grinding it for every character does not take years anymore
>>most gear is account wide, way too easy to gear alts
>>too much catch up gear lets way too many people get into M+ and raids
>>adventure guide handholding players into what activities they can do
stealth marketing thread? All that sounds great

>>713863276

>>713878826
These people don't want exploration and adventure; they want dopamine. They should just play cookie clicker.

>>713878808
Not everything is for everyone and there's nothing wrong with that. Also stop acting like we're still in 2010s. Servers and data centers are dirt cheap and the best proof of this is servers like Turtle WoW that has easily 30k+ across EN/CN and SA servers.

>>713830283 (OP)
here is what they need to do for me to consider resubscribing
>remove all faggotry
>revert all censorship
>remove addon functionality, completely
>remove combat logging (fuck parsing culture)
>remove like 80% of skills and spells, no more than 10 spells per class, making the rotation simple
>make fights simpler, no more bullshit like 3 mechanics happening at the same time
>no endless AP griding
>no endless difficulty scaling, put in a hard limit on m+

>>713878808
The overwhelming majority of early MMO players would be called hyper-casuals by today's standards. It took the average WoW player something like 5 to 6 months to reach level 60 during vanilla. There was no shortage of Stan's Dad tier players logging in to finally explore Duskwood for 20 minutes before they have to drop their kids off at baseball practice.

MMOs can exist even if 50% of the players never touch the endgame. It's when the Randy Marsh's feel their effort is completely pointless and they don't have other casuals to socialize with that they leave and don't come back.

>>713878808
True, excessive profitseeking is what's ruining the world, in every way possible. It's just not allowed to remain small and niche, you MUST grow forever and maximize shareholder profits.

>>713879390
during the original release the leveling was the gameplay
endgame wasn't something people were expecting to focus on
that's the difference

>>713879382
>there's nothing wrong with that
There is if the subscription based game fails to make a profit and has to shut down, retard.

>>713877689
then stop playing MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER games

>>713879649
Why? Life is massively multiplayer yet you don't have to be in a 5-10 whenever you wanna do something, neither should games.

>>713830283 (OP)
>Should MMORPGs be inconvenient purposeully? WoW is getting way too much QoL and it is bad
MMOS always were a series of speedbumps you could overcome with ease or time investment, offering excuses to talk to others and socialize. If you got the shiny and then played with it a bit, you realized it's worthless so they put it at the end of the stick and gave you a kick in the ass. That's how the monetization worked, you had to keep paying to run after the shiny. Once you get it, another shiny appears, and so on so forth. The less you have to work for the shiny, the less you value it. Pretty simple psychology.

tl;dr yes, yes they should.

>>713879516
MMOs haven't been relying solely on subscription for a long time.

>>713879785
5-10 man group*

>>713864324
>muh skill
99.99% as cringe as the high warlord/grant marshal grind. You're still playing video games nerd, don't get uppity and superior because you're in the same hole as the guy you're mocking.

>>713879818
WoW, the subject of this thread, does. Buying every mount is a whale's game, and there's not a lot of those.

>>713830283 (OP)
>too much catch up gear lets way too many people get into M+ and raids

WoW is a seasonal game. It's always been in a way, but now they aren't even trying to hide it. Gearing up can't take too long, becuase everything you're going to achieve this season is going to be worthless in just a few months. That's by design.

Personally I would prefer if it worked the other way around: leveling and gearing up is slow, but once you've achieved something that's it. They're never going to introduce more levels or better gear (or rather, it should work like trading card games: they introduce new items, but they aren't necessarely better than old ones).

>>713878191
By charging people real money?

>>713876064
There is no point of playing MMO anymore. Socializing? Roblox,GTA RP,VRchat better for that. Gameplay? There are tons of games out here with better gameplay and don't require sixteen hours per day of your life.

>>713881373
It's almost like MMOs are supposed to be virtual worlds, and not autistically grinding shit in instances or raidtrooning all day everyday.

>>713830875
That’s bullshit. If you actually play your main you get rewarded with a few veteran gear pieces from the different Renown’s, so you are actually being rewarded for playing your main.
Gearing up an alt without catch up systems is just a waste of time because most of the ways to do it is by playing brain dead events where you can afk most of the time. Right now it’s really easy to gear to get into delves, lfr and low m+ right away.
The biggest thing is you can’t use your main to give the highest I’ll gear to an alt, so you actually have to play your characters if you want the best gear available.