Thread 714404474

>Heavy armor irl
>Completely deflects swords, daggers and spears into nothing, heavily reduces the impact of axes and hammers to the point where you needed to make up new martial arts where you have to wrestle down the enemy and stab the gaps in his armor because regularly hitting him with weapons that would kill an unarmored man would actually do no damage at all.
>Designed with combat mobility in mind. All the joints are constructed in a way that your combat mobility won't be impeded and the weight is equally distributed across the body, so it won't encumber a muscular and fit knight at all in combat.

>Heavy armor in video games
>You now die in 5 hits instead of 4 hits.
>Also you are now super slow and can't dodge anything anymore and collapse from fatigue instantly after walking 5 feet so it actually makes you a worse fighter than the naked man overall.
How do we fix heavy armor in video games.

>>714404474 (OP)
it's for the sake of balance, aka, the same reason why shotguns have the effective range of a party popper

>>714404872
It's not balance if heavy armor just sucks and turns you into a stationary, immovable object.

>>714405047
hey tell that to the devs, not me

bump

>>714404474 (OP)
Heavy armor face tanking was pretty viable in dark souls 1, in fact it was the easiest way to beat several bosses as well.

>>714409815
It's not fun and all the hard bosses still kill you in 4 hits or so.

>>714404474 (OP)
>Attacks are categorized as either light or heavy
>light attacks such as fast swings, arrows, or weak magic are deflected by the armor, dealing heavily reduced damage and does not stagger/break concentration.
>Heavy armor lowers your max stealth, speed, and dodge rate instead of lowering it.

>>714404474 (OP)
Please post videos of all the IRL battles you've been in.

>>714404474 (OP)
I'm really tired of "I just discovered HEMA and need to annoy everyone else about it" posts

> heavily reduces the impact of axes and hammers to the point where you needed to make up new martial arts where you have to wrestle down the enemy and stab the gaps in his armor because regularly hitting him with weapons that would kill an unarmored man would actually do no damage at all.

They don't do that because it isn't fucking fun. People have tried making autistically accurate sword games and they're just a slog or janky nonsense. Video games are an abstraction for a reason.

>>714412886
But this has the side effect that armor is absolutely useless and you are better off running around naked, because armor also makes you comically slow besides giving no meaningful defense, which is stupid.

>>714410728
Except you poise and can just heal spam with 20 flasks

>>714413869
It generally isn't though, what suffers in most RPG games is medium armor because both light and heavy tend to have real upsides that make sense and are viable play styles

Dark souls is the epitome of this, but it goes for older Bioware games too (Where heavy armor has zero downsides but only certain classes can wear it)

>>714404474 (OP)
>actually wearing 20kg of armor wont make you tire faster because of muh distribution!!
>actually a helmet that's about 3mm thick will protect you from a mace strike directly to your head!!! you wont even feel it!!!
why are you supposed realismfags always so fucking dumb?

>>714412846
Best case scenario for you: he posted what looks like reasonable assumptions which you haven't challenged (instead opting for a deflection) without even attempting to make any claims to the contrary, or giving any detail and though really.
Worst case scenario: he participated in enough mock fighting but with real armour and real but blunted weapons that despite having received numerous concussions to the head he is still smarter than you.

>>714410728
Because they're gigantic monsters or superhumans powered with the same devoured souls that you level up with, they have every reason to be able to damage someone through armor. A sentient bear with a big ass club would be able to get through armor, and that's a lot of the monster scale in DS games.

>>714404474 (OP)
Cursed Crusade is the best for that, armor just make you invincible for a certain number of hits on that specific piece of armor.
Your shield also block attacks even if it on your back
Going full unga bunga with end game armor is the best feeling

>>714414329
What's the point of armor then?
Also what happened to magically enchanted armor or materials like Mithril and Orcalium.

>>714404474 (OP)
>How do we fix heavy armor in video game

Make the STR and/or END requirements really high and give it a 80% prot against slashing and piercing.

>>714404474 (OP)
>vidya is irl
why use anything not a gun at all then?

>>714414307
>he participated in enough mock fighting but with real armour and real but blunted weapons
I think one big issue that HEMA/SCA/Battle of the Nations guys get wrong when thinking about armor is that most helmets made for those DO use historical patterns, but are COMICALLY over built SPECIFICALLY because they want to make getting hit in the head repeatedly with a blunt instrument tolerable over a long period

A lot of the helms made today are 10 gauge or better, VERY thick and pretty heavy. That is not at all the standard you'll see with historical bascinets or armets because you weren't counting on deliberately absorbing tons of hits in a battle.

The exception to this (and where I think a lot of these issues stem from) is jousting armor, which was absolutely "sporterized" and thickened to minimize the inevitable impacts sustained.

>>714404474 (OP)
play mount & blade, heavy armor actually help you a lot, it slow you down but still make you viable and is even better when paired with a horse, hell it's the best kind of armor you could use when raiding a castle (while using the shit tons of AI as meat shield first)

>>714414449
>What's the point of armor then?
It still helps, and is just one part of the survivability onion (which applies just as much to a regular dude as it does to a tank)

>>714404474 (OP)
You will enjoy my game when I finish, the entire purpose of it is to make plate armor realistic.
Please pray for me lads, I have trouble committing to finishing it because I am becoming increasingly depressed.

>>714414584
Now that's a good post, thanks. You should have also challenged his assumption that it's not tiring or constricting to wear several stones of gear on you for prolonged periods of time, let alone while doing anything at all in it.

>>714404474 (OP)
>All the joints are constructed in a way that your combat mobility won't be impeded and the weight is equally distributed across the body, so it won't encumber a muscular and fit knight at all in combat.
I don't know why "You still have full range of motion in a good suit of armor" somehow turned into "It basically weighs nothing and won't tire you out at all"

Historical battles rarely had running charges between armored infantry, except at the very moment of contact, and there's a really good reason why most of the guys who could afford nice armor rode horses while doing so.

>>714414329
Great. Then tell me, why can the same monsters and superhumans be stopped by a piddly little heater shield? One of the first bosses waves around a tree trunk of a club, but you can effortlessly block it without breaking an arm. A massive dragon's paw or tail swipe is blocked all the same. Dark Souls doesn't pretend to make sense.

>>714414775
Fix the causes of your depression then. Also a healthy mind requires a healthy body so get to that too. Even if you have chronic illnesses that can't be really fixed completely you can significantly improve your quality of life which makes you more mentally healthy too.

>>714414775
here's the trvth ouchie for you
>people don't like slow combat
>those who do expect realistic combat animations which is difficult for a random indie dev
hope you thought these out

>>714414791
It's a manageable weight and if you're a pretty fit guy who trains in armor (or even just goes for walks/patrols in it), you'll get used to it pretty quick

But there is a reason why the gambeson with a helmet and assorted limb/neck metal armor was the most common type of armor worn, and I can tell you from experience it's very convenient to wear

>>714414876
>Then tell me, why can the same monsters and superhumans be stopped by a piddly little heater shield?
Because it's a video game with abstractions, and the asylum demon is a little bitch

Get better taste shitter

>>714414954
Sure. I was referring more to what you're describing in the second sentence there. Tolerating a bit of it is fine, but when it's 20+ kg no matter how good joint articulation is or how great the padding is you're not as mobile and you tire significantly faster. Same with modern armour and other stuff that usually goes with it.

>>714404474 (OP)
>Why is heavy armor such a meme in RPGs?
Mobility is king. Heavy armor in games more often than not comes at the cost of mobility and stamina regeneration penalties. Being able to perform more actions faster is more useful than being able to tank more damage; avoidance trumps mitigation.

Play Path of Achra.

>>714415210
>and you tire significantly faster.
Depends what you're doing, yeah. You don't want the armor on your arms too heavy for exactly that reason, but if you're on horseback or just walking at a decent pace it's not that much worse than normal.
I'd prefer walking in my armor to rucking the same weight in a backpack, for example.

But yeah sprinting around in armor would be suboptimal, which is why guys who would actually be jogging around the battlefield on foot like skirmishers tended to wear a lot less.

The missing link here to remember is that a lot of medieval armor was meant for mitigating arrows first and foremost (this includes shields), then melee combat second. The better the armor became over time, the smaller the shields tended to get.

>>714415448
Climbing, carrying something, dragging something, digging, pretty much anything aside from sitting, standing or walking not too far at a comfortable pace. Small wonder knights had servants to help them get into it and out of it.

>>714415802
>Climbing, carrying something, dragging something, digging, pretty much anything aside from sitting, standing or walking not too far at a comfortable pace.
Granted, manual labor in pre-modern times was very cheap and if you could afford armor, you could afford someone to do all the boring shit for you.
Climbing a ladder would be fine, though the danger would more likely be from the guys trying to prevent you from getting onto their wall.

Maintenance is another aspect to all of it that doesn't get addressed whatsoever, and is why I like the idea of the Arthurian questing knight as an adventurer because you could reasonably wear that type of armor all day *and* maintain it by yourself without a lot of issues.

>>714414934
>truth ouchie
>slow combat
hate to break it to you, but I do harnischfechten, any minor failure in mobility is more than made up for by the 270 degree protection and ability to use your body as you need. You also dont move as fast outside of armor as you think you do.
My system is not so complex that its impossible to ever finish (programming and animating for highly specific and accurate points of vulnerability) but instead based on the fact that even a full harness is typically vulnerable in the back, and during certain movements, and that weapons such as hammers or maces are a real worry.

>>714414914
Appreciate it, I think my biggest issue is that I have developed some kind of insomnia, probably because I think I didnt get enough done each day and by the time I fall asleep I'm only a few hours from the kiddos waking up. I started going to to school part time so I feel like im doing something all day other than mindless programming, but I'm still failing to find any great motivation to work on the game.

>>714416054
>you could afford someone to do all the boring shit for you.
Yes, but in fictional settings adventurers usually never have servants to help them carry various goods and double as labourers. Not in the least because they'd more often than not get killed by something or someone.
>Maintenance
Absolutely, very underrated. Probably hand-waved just like volume limits and other such details. Very few games bother with that because it easily snowballs into unfun tedium.

>>714416301
The issue is more that mouse + keyboard isn't a good way to accurately control a weapon with precision and trying to do it with pre-scripted directional movements gets you the jank that is Mount & Blade or Kingdom Come, both of which are fun but could hardly be called "accurate"

>>714404474 (OP)
What RPG’s are you playing? Fromsoft RPG’s have zero sense of balance whatsoever. And the average ARPG always has a heavy and light build. Maybe play better designed RPG’s.

>>714414189
In fairness the 3mm of steel would have cloth padding underneath.

Tainted Grail really pissed me off because of this.

>>714404474 (OP)
WHERE THE HECK IS OUTWARD 2

>>714416301
>weapons such as hammers or maces are a real worry for plate armor
no
if you are as invested into this as you say, try it for yourself or hit someone in plate armor with a hammer and see if he cares

>>714416609
>mouse + keyboard isn't a good way to accurately control a weapon
compared to controllers it is much much better and the only other realistic option, brain wave control, doesn't work that well yet

>the jank that is Mount & Blade or Kingdom Come, both of which are fun but could hardly be called "accurate"
these 2 games are very different
in mountain blade you can indeed accurately swing at any spot you want, if you combine the 4 directions with the upper body movement controlled by the mouse, the real issue here is that you can also turn on a dime at lightning speed, like in all melee games (with the alternative being, having a system that feels like you are swimming in jello)
in kingdom cum, the directions are just window dressing, as the game forces you to lock on without actually aiming and the enemies have a % based chance of evading / blocking / etc. regardless of which direction you use - it's essentially skyrim and all the directions do is give you a slight % increase to the chance of hitting; even more funny is, that you can actually start attacking enemies in that half a second before the forced lock on and those attacks can be aimed like in mountain blade, but the enemies don't even react to most of those attacks and they just go through every time

>>714410728
"still"
as opposed to 2 shots for any hard boss in elden shit with any armor
Which also attack 5x more than dark souls before you're allowed to attack(but behold! heavy armor actually lets you poise through boss attacks!)

It's a full fledged alternate playstyle, unlike elden shit.

>>714418745
calm down, TROON souls 1 TROON

>>714418745
What is worse, in ER the sheer amount of defense buffs you can get via consumables, arts and spells means flat armour defense is even less meaningful.

That said, in DS1 you could facetank EVERY encounter, which makes for a very boring playstyle.

>>714418928
Have you considered killing yourself, ya dumb nigger?

>>714410728
You can fully heal by the time a foe might land the second hit. And you get 20 estus and infinite humanities to perform said healing with, while enemies are relatively squishy

>>714418608
>if you are as invested into this as you say, try it for yourself or hit someone in plate armor with a hammer and see if he car
I invite you to do as much yourself. Its one thing to get hit with a sword, but getting mordhau'd, shield butted, or otherwise bludgeoned in the right moment can knock you off balance in your body, or worse, in your head. A deft blow to the skull has a really interesting nauseating effect, and that, along with the practice of combating with your visor up to breathe are good motivations to hold to traditional "protect the head" virtues in combat.

What are some good RPG's where heavy armour actually matters and isn't just weight increased regular armor

I think if a game has a distinction between "light armor" and "heavy armor" as different categories, they should result in meaningfully different playstyles, because otherwise why explicitly distinguish between them?

>>714422428
Basically any turn based rpg or mmo.
If all you care about is that it matters, rpgs typically just distribute stats differently for heavy, giving much higher def but not very much agi or whatever.

>>714404474 (OP)
It should be insanely expensive, not a different skill tree from light armor, and require prep time to have it made to fit the player character. You should not be able to find a full suit of steel plate armor off some bandit in a dungeon that fits you perfectly but is mostly useless for armor.

>hire a smith to make a custom suit from scratch with agility and defense buffs
>find a suit and wear it with agility and defense debuffs
>hire a smith to adjust the fit to you (no buffs)

Also should require assistance and time to equip.

>>714404474 (OP)
Stupid devs think they have to balance everything. The player who prefers light armor must not feel like he has a disadvantage from his decision. In real live, as you say, heavy armor was not a situational thing, a sidegrade to light armor so to speak, but a straight upgrade in every way. The only real disadvantage was that fighting in it tires you out faster but that is actually a non-issue because you don't have to move as much since you can affort to take hits that would immediately incapacitate an unarmored guy.

I want a videogames that has the balls to make heavy amor as powerful as it was in real life. To balance it, make it hard to obtain/expensive as shit. That's how it was balanced in real life. Oh, and fire arms in the late middle age.

>>714424936
I'd like to see a game give the player multiple loadout options with different use cases. Like maybe there's a monster in the middle of a field near town so you can equip your extremely expensive plate armor, with help from a squire in town, and ride your horse all the way there to fight it, but also have dungeons several days away and up a tough climb to where the best armor you could reasonably equip for such a quest is a mail shirt which you can equip alone and travel for days and climb while wearing.

>>714404474 (OP)
>why are video games video games

>>714404474 (OP)
Because it was a meme in real life, extremely heavy, cumbersome, and just impractical.

>reduces impact of hammers
lol no instead you get a crater in your chest that is essentially stuck, while the last few moments of your life were wishing you just got bludgeoned in the head with no armor whatsoever.