Thread 714872497

>NOOOOO THINK OF THE INDIES
Name 5 always online live service indie games

>>714872497 (OP)
nobody's making that argument, anon.
your thread sucks and you do as well.

Jackie Chan
Jackie Chan Online
Jackie Chan Online 2
Jackie Chan Chronicles
World of Jackie Chan

>>714872559
>Nobody is making that argument
But they literally are

>>714872497 (OP)
SKG is an anti-semetic dogwhistle. Entry in the ADL's Glossary of Extremism and Hate is pending.

>>714872729
who? literal mouth breathers that dont deserve the time of day?

>>714872559
Literally the lobbyist group and Pirate are. Go back

>>714872765
see >>714872779

>>714872765
>no one says that
>ok, there are people who say that but they don't matter

500 threads later, and nobody was able to give an argument as to why you should have a digital good that last forever

>>714872765
You do realize the corporations said that right. They even admitted the quiet part out loud IE: The reason they kill old games is to make more money

>>714872779
>>714872823
>>714873063
>literal mouth breathers that dont deserve the time of day

>>714873008
Tell me why a virtually inexhaustible digital product can run out. Unless suddenly every electronic device on earth went out a digital copy should last forever.

>>714873008
because I payeded for it.
I boughted a product not a service and it belongs to me.
forever.

>nobody is saying that
>ok some people are saying that but they don't matter
you are here
>ok some people are saying that and it's a good thing
>everyone are saying that because it's a good thing
>everyone has always said that

>>714873136
t. Plant

>>714872905
Anon folded like a house of cards from the smallest amount of pushback.

>>714873136
see >>714872905

>>714872497 (OP)
I don't care, nuke all live service

>>714873309
the people that say that or are able to be convinced of it aren't intelligent enough to be classified as people.

the only always-online game I play is Path of Exile and honestly there's no real reason for that to be online, they should just have an offline mode where you can't trade with others. Especially since their netcode is liquid dog shit

What's the point of these threads? You're either a ubijeet or a bootlicker

>>714873434
that's ssf
it's still online though

>>714873454
I don't want my property stolen.

>>714873226
"I paid for eternity" is not an argument, is a description of something you want
I'm asking for an argument as WHY you should have that

>>714873183
That is the case indeed. I'm asking for an argument as WHY you should have that good lasting forever, because it's digital.
That's not on any TOS. "Because it's digital, you own this forever". That doesn't exist.
That's something you assume to be true

>>714872497 (OP)
Even if they are always online, what is the point you are making? SKG is not retro active btw.

>>714872497 (OP)
>>NOOOOO-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCKKK
FUCK OFF TROSSANNY SKG TRANNY. This is your third attempt

>>714856776
>Deleted just as the thread was about to be archived
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>714871628
>Deleted AGAIN
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>714872270
>>deleted at >500 replies
>wth?
>why even bother at that point?
So that the based (for once) janny could make an ass out of eceleb trannies who thought their mandrama shit has been finally accepted. That's why!

path of exile started off as indie
same as league of legends
warframe
deep rock galactic
among us

essentially if you have a GAAS game and it is profitable, it will no longer become indie and you will become a huge studio or get bought out by Tencent (like Riot and ggg) so it's a trick question

>>714873605
>it's still online though
exactly, and there's really no need

>WE NEED TO GIVE THE YUROPOOR PARLIAMENT A FOOTHOLD IN THE GAMING INDUSTRY, WHICH SURELY WONT BACKFIRE LONG TERM!
Okay, but why?
>SO THAT LIVE SERVICE GARBAGE NEVER DIES!
...

>>714873786
All you are doing is showing how stupid the jannies are and how based OP is

>>714873983
Yes

>>714873008
Why should games get exception for standard on other digital software you can purchase?
It isn't about US to explain to you why it should last forever, but YOUR JOB to try and argue why a digital product you buy shouldn't follow standards from both old vidya and current software.
Especially if you buy a physical product like a game disc.

>>714873983
what a stupid ass opinion
>oh no the FDA has a foothold in my sandwich because the ham vendor can't put poison in the meat

>>714873786
Based OP

>>714873759
I guess since a software being digital does not count as something real then it is not my property, just like those CP videos that are also digital and are not my property either.

>>714873983
protecting my right to property is one of the few legitimate purposes of a government.

>>714873357
>aren't intelligent enough to be classified as people
Yeah. They're called politicians.

>>714874143
Since the inception of the FDA, Americans have gotten fatter and sicker and died earlier

>>714872497 (OP)
Airmech,
Spiral knights,
Wildassault,
Legacy, steel and sorcerery

>>714873983
They already have a foothold or have you forgotten the time Valve was forced to give out refunds?

>>714874223
You don't have an amusement park. You don't own the live service. They are protecting the rights of private property, the right of companies to lease access to their servers and kill it when it is not financially feasible.

>>714873793
>same as league of legends
has LAN
>among us
has private servers

>>714873434
Imagine, being able to create pivate servers for any version of PoE.

>>714872497 (OP)
>>714874310
Bitcraft, had to step away and didnt finish the post.

>>714874303
>died earlier
and yeah they're fatter since sugar is everywhere

>>714874223
it's not about your right to property tho
It's about the lenght of your hold on that property
That you assume to be forever

>>714872497 (OP)
But what about Meet 'N' Fuck Kingdom eh?

>>714873983
Strange. You shills were constantly going on about how this was going to kill live service games. I guess you guys finalized realized /v/ hate that garbage and are now flipping the script.

>someone has fair, light criticism about Stop Killing Games
>"Nooo you don't understand the proposal, it's not X, it's Y"
>another person criticizes Y
>"Sigh... People still don't understand the proposal is not about Y, but actually about X?"

I'm fucking done with this stupid subject. It is impossible to say anything negative about it because Stop Killing Games is like the holy spirit: it's nowhere, and at the same time everywhere. It's about nothing, and at the same time everything. No matter what you criticize, it'll always be "wrong" because it is actually about whatever point you did not criticize; and this point will oportunistically change once the next person says they disagree.

Fuck everyone involved with this. Bunch of dishonest vulture clowns turning this into another Gamergate

>>714873983
If it wasn't for the eu you wouldn't even be able to refund games

>>714874737
Didn't read. Post smelled too much

>>714873008
500 threads later, and nobody was able to give an argument as to why you shouldn't have a digital good that last forever.
Sneed seethe and dilate.

>>714874737
Nice pasta. But you're a faggot

>>714872497 (OP)
>Name 5 always online live service indie games
I can't.

I fucking hate how SKG just became another just cause hijacked by Gamergate, it's fucking disgusting. We had a good thing going until you fucks came and fucked everything up.

>>714873759
You agreed to this when you accepted the EULA which apparently has won some cases, news to me.
The Crew had like 100 players at the end of it and they moved onto The Crew 2.

Take a deep breath, and without shitting your pants, answer me this: Aren't you overreacting a little? Just a bit. I believe there is a better venue for this.
I mean for game preservation, I do support GOG

>>714875384
That dvd you bought isn't popular so we can destroy it

>>714874964
It really shouldnt be that hard.

I will forever hold airmech on a pedastal because carbon games is like 2 guys in a shed at this point but they keep the servers for their game going longer then most AAA studios.

>>714874641
Schizo nonsense
>>714874223
>>714874757
The EU wants you to own nothing and be content with that pathetic existence, or have you forgotten about that? Why are we assuming the ZOG nanny state operates with the welfare of their subjects in mind?

>>714875274
It isn't "you fucks".
It's corpo shills pushing "left vs right" and the retarded idpol fags who
Always
Fucking
Bites
If it can pump their own ego. The laziest fucking falseflag makes ne/v/fags bite every single time. Seriously, try it out for fun on some thread.
>"Hello guys, I used to like [game thread is about], but these days I can see how racist/sexist it is. I just can't enjoy it because it reminds me of Trump"
And fucking everyone bites. It's fucking retarded. That kind of post should be a ban with mod message of "Stop trolling retard".
But no. Instead it stays up and mods delete/autosages SKG whenever they feel like it.

>>714875816
NOOO THE EVIL EU WILL FORCE APPLE TO USE USB TYPE C CHARGERS

>>714873983
So that single player, multiplayer, and live service games don't have to die. There's literally no good reason why we shouldn't be able to host our own servers if the company no longer supports the product.

>>714875816
>The EU wants you to own nothing and be content with that pathetic existence, or have you forgotten about that?
Proof?
The EU is retarded but so far they've been very pro-consumer.

>>714875887
>MUH USB TYPE C ON IPHONES!!
An inconsequential and easy change that has garnered an insane amount of public trust as a result. So now when they import millions of subhuman third worlders into your country you'll thank them because your garbage phone can be charged without a proprietary USB cable.
BTW if they'd just make reverse engineering legal, then games dying or proprietary USB cables wouldn't be a problem!

>>714876206
People already reverse engineer games, it's just that it takes fucking years for something to be functioning enough to be released, likewise USB-C mods for iPhones existed before the USB-C mandate, but the number of boards being made and the installation made them exceedingly rare. All this to say, life would be easier if the provider makes things right from the get go instead of having some tinkerer come up with a solution after the fact.

>>714876206
>An inconsequential and easy change
Just like pic related

>>714876206
>Host server button is difficult when 99% of online indies have it

>>714874115
There isn't a single EULA or TOS that explicitly gives the right to permanet, infinite access forever to the digital software, I don't know what you are talking about or why you think this is the case.
They absolutely should be ruled like by any other software. You know, the ones that commonly say "This is not supported anymore, updates stops, we are not responsable for this anymore"

>>714874790
You don't own anything that last forever.
Therefore, it's on you to explain why games should.

>>714872497 (OP)
So now its about always online? Why do you keep changing the subject like that?

>>714875384
>You agreed to this when you accepted the EULA
Can you point me to the part it says you have the goods forever? I would like to check them out if I missed it

>>714876571
My FL Studio works even if the updates stopped. Why can't games do that?

>>714872497 (OP)
why is the snes controller so iconic?

>>714876629
The subject has remained the same. You can find it on the home page. People just like to muddy the waters.

I'd rather trust in Indie than trust in AAA for the future of videogames.
To say "there's not been many live service indie games" is disingenuous. What used to be impossible for solo devs 10 years ago, is now possible due to improved tooling and community support.
The best games of the past 10 years were all indie. Its probably best to not handcuff them with regulations.

>>714876520
Only because it's illegal for them to do it and they have to keep it on the down-low. They can't even profit from it. Digital copyright laws dictate that you can't tinker with the software you paid money for.
>>714876137
>Proof?
Where have you been in the last 5 years? Politicians and EU fags show up at the World Economic Forum all the time now.

>>714876948
Accusation and guilt by association is not proof, anon.

>>714876863
What fucking handcuffs?
It's not hard to do. We've been doing it for decades. But for some reason the current year AAA companies don't, because they plan for obsolescence.

>>714872729
No, (You) are because you're part of a misinformation campaign.

>>714877337
Funny you mention it because I'm seeing retards bringing it up in this very thread

>>714873008
I guess today's tactic is shifting the burden of proof.
I paid for it, which means it's mine. Video games are sold to customers under the pretense that they own it and can play it whenever they wish, when that is not the case. This is inherently fraudulent.

>>714873983
>NOOOO, WE SHOULD LEAVE THE INDUSTRY TO THE FREE MARKET, I AM SURE IT WILL FIX ITSELF IN TWO WEEKS, JUST WAIT
frog posters are retarded, more news at 11
>>714874570
the only reason why life expectancy went up so much is duo to modern medicine, fat fucks and boomers can eat garbage food and do no exercies and still live past 50-60 because they take a dozen of pills per day

>>714877532
>the pretense that they own it and can play it whenever they wish
can you really say that? They tell you explicitly that you're buying a license that can be revoked at any time

>>714877010
I wish I could be this oblivious.

>>714876863
Name five live service indies

>>714877101
Additional red tape around making games will create a headache for indie devs, and force them into other genres that have less legal hazards. That comes at a cost to the players who miss a chance to play those games.
And I'm sure you know, theres countless examples going on every day where people who cannot afford long drawn out court cases are bullied into submission by corporations or the wealthy. This is a threat against indie who are the lifeblood of video games and the only way out of the corporate hell its in now.
A solo developer should not be expected to maintain a game ad infinitum or else forfeit it to be abandonware.

>>714876695
Because it wasn't designed to do that.
My Maya 3.5 doesn't work on windows 10 anymore. And that's something that given the build I could make it work. But we are talking about the million other software that doesn't work.
My encarta refuse to even open on anything

>>714874143
Except buying a shitty video game won't kill you
Eating rancid meat will

>>714877981
not necessarily, maybe it just gives you the shits. Either way I'm glad someone is making sure it doesn't happen in the first place

>>714877791
>You in 2005: Name 5 good indies
>You in 2010: Name 5 metroidvania indies
>You in 2015: Name 5 3d indies
>You now:
The fact is, live service will definitely be targeted by indie studios in the future.
Players who grow up with live service games, will want to make them when they grow up.
Its not even up for discussion, this is a frontier which indie will explore at some point.

>>714872559
Good needful sir! +1 rupee in your account!

Hey can someone give me a qrd on this whole thing? I don't really get what the petitioners want

>>714878071
How is that comparable to live service slop? Just don't buy it and don't look at it and it goes away!

>>714874521
>don't have to deal with those turbo-autistic changes that ruins your planned build half-way
The dream.

>>714878645
>Just don't buy
Just don't sell it

>>714877637
>can be revoked at any time
Unfair contract terms under EU

>>714878508
We want games to be in a playable state after for as long as the developers advertise it to be.
There are several options like
>Dedicated servers
>Announcing an end of service date
>Not having unnecesary online for single player games
>Letting another company host the official servers
And so on.
This is to prevent someone from buying a game and being unable to play it anymore because the devs/publishers pulled the plug on the game.

>>714878965
Seems reasonable enough. Corpos will probably kill it though being realistic

>>714878508
When you play an always online game, like path of exile, you have to connect to the game servers to play.
If there's no internet, you can't play.
If steam is down, you can't play.
The initiative focus on: If poe devs are kill, you can't play.
They want the devs of always online games to make it so when they go down, the game is playable somehow.
It's a matter that affected maybe 10 games out of the hundred millions of games out there, but apparently we need a whole thing for it.

>>714878937
that remains to be contested in court

>>714879201
>They want the devs of always online games to make it so when they go down, the game is playable somehow.
>It's a matter that affected maybe 10 games out of the hundred millions of games out there, but apparently we need a whole thing for it.
If it only affects like 10 games out of hundreds of millions, why are so many triple-A studios like Ubisoft and EA lobbying against it?

>>714878782
Are you a communist or something? The government shouldn't get to decide what can or can't be sold.

>>714879143
the request seems reasonable from your pov but it's not from the game dev pov
it's extra work for every single dev in existance in all always online games, for a handfull of games that will realistically be preserved.
At the moment of The crew shutting down, which is the staple example of this movement, had like 20 people playing it

>>714874521
>the golden era of server based multiplayer might return because one man wanted to play his ubislop
bizarre timeline

>>714879550
>the government should let me buy heroin

>>714879497
>If it only affects like 10 games out of hundreds of millions, why are so many triple-A studios like Ubisoft and EA lobbying against it?
see
>>714879596
with "being affected" I mean "the game dying but people still wanted to play it". It's a very small amount compared to the giant work overall that's imposed to save that amount

>>714872497 (OP)
Every HiRez game and I want them to suffer.

>>714878645
>”Just don’t buy it!”
>I don’t buy it
>but enough people buy it either because of ignorance or their cult mentality
>Other games follow and make it so you can’t find a new game that isn’t live service
That’s how voting with your wallet works in reality. You’re fighting in an election where people can vote Yes multiple times while you only get to vote No once, and Yes votes only needs to reach a profitability threshold, not half the population.

>>714879550
the government wouldn't need to step in if publishers followed some basic standards of decency to customers

>>714879596
>means more work hours, ie more pay
>maybe new hires
How is this bad for the average dev?

>>714875870
Hello anon, I used to like Lucky Star, but these days I can see how racist/sexist it is. I just can't enjoy it because it reminds me of Trump.

>>714879596
So those 20 people shouldn't have the right to enjoy the indefinite copy of the good they purchased?

>>714879832
Work you are enforced to do by law is not really work.
Also if you are an indie dev or small studio it's net money/time lost

>>714879827
I can't wait to see Ubisoft test this notion in european court.

The funniest thing about the counter arguments to SKG is that I understand them completely, and even agree with the logic, but it just makes me want to support the movement more because I want live service to die anyway.

>>714879704
>false equivalence
You have so much good faith today, sirs.
>>714879827
>>714879827
That's the consumer's fault.
>But Blackrock and ESG money
Good, you've come to the realization that the EU openly supports Blackrock and ESG. Can we stop pretending like they're hecking consumer-friendly now?

>>714879968
Not at the expense of the unsurmantable amount of work you want to enforce on the whole spectrum of videogame development, not really.
If there was a middle ground solution? maybe
But as it is, fuck no

>>714872738
*glues a penny to a pavement*

>>714880174
>That's the consumer's fault.
>kids working in coal mines and dying in the 1890s was the kids' fault

>>714879550
Ah so you're against Lemon laws too, then?

>>714873008
Because you paid for it and now you own it
>but you dont
If buying does not grant you owning rights then copying should be freely allowed

>>714880321
Copyright is freely allowed after a certain amount of time.
Why should games be infinite?

>>714880174
Governments exist to protect their citizens, if your country is pure anarchism and everyone is just looking for a way to steal from each other then why do you pay taxes to them?

>>714880410
>Why should games be infinite?
same reason why I can buy a bluray of a movie and watch it in 100 years without some hollywood kike suing me to destroy the disc because my license ran out

>>714880174
>Can we stop pretending like they're hecking consumer-friendly now? >>714880273
Reply to this, faggot.

>>714878089
so then indies will make live service games with eol plans. not impossible

>>714880259
>more false equivalence
How is making video games comparable to child labor.
>>714880512
>Governments exist to get rid of thing I don't like
The law that the SKG retards want to pass won't change anything. You'll still own nothing. I would be okay with getting the EU involved if we proposed a real fucking change, but we're doing NOTHING.

>>714880192
>unsurmountable amount of work
>offline patch for the crew would've been too much work
>incidently, the sequel has an offline mode after the backlash
They just want to maintain the grey area of digital good ownership
>"you don't own the license" conviniently forgetting paying customers own the licensed copy for an indefinite time

>>714880773
>How is making video games comparable to child labor.
in both child labor and buying video games, there is one party to the contract that is significantly weaker and unable to negotiate terms other than just not participating. Therefore the party deserves some help from the government

>>714880518
The bluray will get destroyed on it's own if you don't take care of it. It takes time, space and money to store your bluray and take care of it so it's playable. You do that.
Here, it's the company filling that role. They are taking that time space and money to keep the file, untill they don't anymore.
I would be completely in favour of you downloading the game once and being able to play the always online game out of your bluray, offline.

>>714873983
and then there's this retard

>>714880791
>paying customers own the licensed copy for an indefinite time
Can you point me to a TOS or EULA that says this you are claiming?
You aren't pulling this one out of your ass, aren't you anon

>>714880918
>I would be completely in favour of you downloading the game once and being able to play the always online game out of your bluray, offline.
good, that's what SKG wants. Either remove the always online requirement once you're done supporting the game, or otherwise enable people to host their own servers

>>714872497 (OP)
Even if they exist it doesn't mean they couldn't have been adapted to have an end of like plan.

>>714881047
Sure thing.
But who would be in charge of validating the ownership of the license?

>>714877637
>But bro you signed the the ToS that forfeits your first born child
Kill yourself.
I buy a book it should last till it crumbles.
I buy a digital book it should last till the bits crumble.
A good should last until it breaks not until the company decides to manually break it, not by shutting down the server but requiring the server for single player sections in the first place.

>>714881213
>But who would be in charge of validating the ownership of the license?
The license was validated when the person downloaded and installed the game for the first time

>>714873008
>why you should have a digital good that last forever
Art should last forever, or at least as long as we can. Books get preserved for thousands of years, so should games.

>>714881330
No, I mean when you host the game.
And people connect to it, who's validating their licenses?

>>714881227
So why aren't we putting that into law? Why are we just forcing devs to give us PARTIAL access to their games AFTER they kill them? This whole thing is so retarded it's unreal.

>>714881213
I have a receipt that says I bought it.

>>714880918
you have a legal right to back up media you buy, so you can technically own a DVD and the right to the movie that use to be on it for ever, after every bit on it is unreadable
what is illegal is bypassing DRM, which is why this is often not possible
the legal right to making archival backups is recognized across mediums

>>714880791
The Crew already had an offline mode already on disc by the way, it was as easy as flipping a switch to make it available on our end.

>>714881385
>No, I mean when you host the game.
it's highly unlikely that the people connecting to my server will be booting the game for the first time, so they will also have been validated by then. And if they are - you're already done with this game and you aren't selling it, so why do you care about validating them

>>714880410
I buh a product. The profuct must function for me for as long as I want it to. Either that means that service game should be online forever or that I am granted rights to reverse engineer, modify and distribute it. No in-between. If you want to provide a service instead of selling the product, you should use subscription model with all the risk of failure it has in the gaming market.

>>714881545
by the way, I don't think SKG prevents you from releasing a closed source tool for people to host games that will still do some sort of a license check with the original publisher to stop pirates

>>714881545
Not biting the bullet huh
I accept your concession

>>714881578
>The profuct must function for me for as long as I want it to
Can you point me to an EULA or TOS that says this you are claiming? That's a big claim

>>714881875
>EULA and TOS
Jewish waste of electronic paper is none my concern, especially if it is not legally binding. Other than that, I dont care how it is now, I say how it should be and what SKG is trying to achieve. When the law changes your eula and tos will change accordingly or will be invalidated

>>714880410
For starters, copyright currently only starts to expire after you fucking die. Only after 70 years after the author’s death does their work become open domain.
Second, ideas and property aren’t the same fucking thing.
Assuming your work somehow managed to become open domain in your life time, you can still write the sequels, spin offs, remixes, remakes, etc. of your original story, and you can still sell it. Being open domain doesn’t prevent you from doing anything, but copyright prevents everyone else from doing things.
Once game developers pull the plug on a game that requires an internet connection, its done for. You can’t play the game ever again for any reason if there is no dedicated servers or something.

>we will finally make gachas kneel as well
Good timeline.

>>714881213
The game is not supported anymore and nobody can profit off of it, there's no way and no point in validating any license since the EULA has already been terminated for all customers.
Wanna keep validating licenses? Support the game.

>>714882270
>I'm entitled to [This thing I want]!
>Can you point to were did you see this or why you think you are entitled to that?
>No!
ok

>>714882349
For starters, you are wrong.
That's for a specific type of copyright.
Ask chatgpt for licensed/registered producs instead

>>714882530
Question.
If you didn’t have breakfast this morning, how would you feel?

>>714882692
>I'm entitled to [This thing I want]!
>Can you point to were did you see this or why you think you are entitled to that?
>No! You are autistic!
ok

>companies get to lobby the government to fuck me over
>it's overreach when that status quo challenged
noticing....

>>714882530
I don’t think you get the point. Scams do exist, yes, selling “perpetual license that can be withdrawn any time any reason whatsoever with no wrongdoings from your side” is one of the biggest showcases of that. In civilised high trust societies scamming people is considered bad, and as such this practice needs to go. So you will still be able to write “you purchased a product but you dont own nothing” in your tos or eula. You just wont be able to sell this shit here, unless you want to comply.

>>714883004
ngl, being entitled to having something forever is kinda scammy on the consumer side

>>714883153
No it’s not. Buy a car and you keep that forever until you decide that you want to sell it or stop fixing it and dispose of it.

>>714873008
>1500 threads later, and Ubisoft still hasn't ran out of shills to spout rhetoric.

>>714883328
Can you post me an example of a car that lasts forever?

>>714883575
Any car in existence lasts as long as its owner wants it to. Car producer has no say in when I should stop fixing it.

>>714873008
Are you invested in BTC?

>>714882982
>Companies with a massive bias are allowed to "lobby" against changes that mean they have to try harder and can't fuck us over
I'm just hoping the same EU officials that approved GDPR has some sort of ghostly influence over the current officials.

Brighter Shores, I think? I've seriously tried looking for indies this would affect and could find jackshit, and none of the people making this argument ever bother to name any either.

>>714873759
>why
Because we'll end you otherwise.

>>714883736
But if you personally, don't invest time and money to fix it it'll naturally degrade and get destroyed.

>>714883575
It lasts forever if I take it to the damn garage. If it ends up costing more to fix than just scrapping the thing and buying a new one, that's my choice to scrap it.

Games could last forever if you want them to, you just need the tools. Big companies can cope about muh security and how much work it'd take but what it boils down to is that they're afraid people won't buy new thing unless they kill old thing.

>>714884258
How does that contradict SKG?

>>714883575
Can you post an example of a car company intentionally going over to your house to steal back the car they sold you?

>>714884442
they were taking that upfront cost for you and wish to stop, and skg says "nonono send the cost to me! I'll do it!" But you already enjoyed 5-10 or whatever years of not paying that maintenance cost.

>>714884594
yeah, if you take out of the car and you don't pay it back they come and take it back.
Banks do this regularly

>>714884594
They purchase governments who use environmental laws to remove your vehicle from the road.

>>714873008
>a digital good
pajeetus shillus incompetentus

>>714883153
If a seller isn't capable to exactly say when a product expires, it's indefinite.
>digital goods are intangible
>game sold, not leased, with a one time purchase
>support ends
>game can still function for no additional charges as shown by numerous examples
>somehow it's legally accepted that the one-time purchase you made on a licensed copy (which is the same definition for a physical game) cannot give you the right to enjoy a perfectly working product
EULAs & TOS can only go so far but they're not legally binding in the EU. Legislation has been made to more clearly define things for most digital goods like music or movies, it was only a matter of time before it came to digital games.

>>714884884
It could be a chinois trying to normalize their digital dogshit 'currency' that expires and ensures their ongoing slavery.

>>714884805
Then you didn’t buy it if you didn’t make your payments.

>>714884731
>they were taking that upfront cost for you
No, they didnt. Everything that is done was paid for by players. The moment they have to take the cost for you(as in it becomes unprofitable to cost servers because money from players no longer cover their cost) they game dies.
>But you already enjoyed 5-10 or whatever years of not paying that maintenance cost.
If players have not paid for that maintenance, who did? Do you suggest that a company got money out of thin air for this or that they maintained the game at a loss without shutting it down?

>>714881875
Not in the EULA/TOS but EU law already affords consumers some protections for instances where there is a lack of conformity with the contract. Consumers are entitled to remedies, which include refunds/reimbursements.
http://data.europa.eu/eli/dir/2019/770/oj

>>714873008
my consumer rights
>you're selling A GOOD
>you want to destroy that good (i.e. in fringe on my rights), which violates my, i.e. the consumer's, rights
>therefore you should refrain from killing games (or making games killable) to respect my consumer rights
QED

>>714872729
i've seen it

>>714872559
wrong

>>714872765
good, you admit that people are making that argument

>>714882683
>ask chatgpt
retard detected

>>714883575
Old Volvos are fucking tanks, man.

>>714885069
>>714885647
>no arguments to refute these
Time to clear these grey areas.

>>714885069
>If a seller isn't capable to exactly say when a product expires, it's indefinite.
Can you post me a law or something that codifies this expectation?

>>714886727
It's only because no consumer has sued a game company over this gray area that it hasn't been cleared up. SKG might just do that, which would be amazing.

>>714873008
Because I said so.

>>714873983
nonono anon, surely the rich and powerful will NEVER find a way to manipulate a government program to benefit them exclusively and fuck everyone else over
whatever you do, don't try anything other than handing more power over to the standing entity that prevents you from just hosting your own version of any (dead) live service
don't abolish IP law
just sign the petition that totally isn't another thinly veiled power play to make the internet more useless and limited like 'net neutrality' was.

>>714873983
Forcing companies to bear their bullshit live services burden forever might stop them from trying

>>714887401
>can you post me a law
I dont get this retarded argument. Laws arent some kind of fundamental truth, they are changed all the time. SKG asks to add and change the laws and describes why it should be done. The society demand for a something to be this way is not the other way is a justification for every law ever created

>>714872497 (OP)
Soviet jump game

>>714887749
>net neutrality bad
What fucking kike argument is this lol?

Every single bootlicker post, from pro-censorship to anti-romhacks to anti-SKG, I noticed only talk about what is CURRENTLY written into law, ignoring the fact that people want to see the law change.

im so happy that this whole shitshow has turned thor into an internet punchbag cause i've hated that dude since his shitty rpg got onto kickstarter. i was vaguely aware of him before that with his sl drama but this dude claiming he has 20 years experience yet coding like toby fox or yanderedev really got on my fucking nerves

>>714879201
Isn't poe the worst possible example
It is a free game, you didn't buy anything to be bound to it

>>714889526
You buy tabs/skins

>>714889318
Still doesnt justify him getting swatted two times btw

>>714890738
did i say it was? i just enjoy people shitting on him but i dont want the dude dead, he's just a redditor stereotype, not a rapist or pedophile or something.

>>714887401
Not explicitly, but in the other sense, the EULA doesn't stipulate the length of the contract and is for all intents and purposes an indeterminate time period.
Article 8 from Directive - 2019/770 states that a digital good or service shall:
>be fit for the purposes for which digital content or digital services of the same type would normally be used, taking into account, where applicable, any existing Union and national law, technical standards or, in the absence of such technical standards, applicable sector-specific industry codes of conduct;
AND
>be of the quantity and possess the qualities and performance features, including in relation to functionality, compatibility, accessibility, continuity and security, normal for digital content or digital services of the same type and which the consumer may reasonably expect, given the nature of the digital content or digital service and taking into account any public statement made by or on behalf of the trader, or other persons in previous links of the chain of transactions, particularly in advertising or on labelling...
I'm not gonna past the entire fucking directive but there is precedent for this.

>>714873008
>the only kind of goods that actually can last forever thanks to lossless copying between storage devices across thousands of years
>"no it should not last forever!"

>>714872652
>Jackie Chan die
>See this post right after
Kek, guess they killed them after all, huh?

>>714891402
you made me look up if Jackie Chan has died (he has not)

>>714891361
you should stop being so anti-semetic. have you tried that?
libraries literally steal food out of publishers' starving mouths. they should pay $80 for ebooks that can only be lent 50 times to make up for all the IP theft they enable

>>714891289
>normal for digital content or digital services of the same type and which the consumer may reasonably expect
See that's my gripe with it.
I don't think it's reasonably expected for me to have it forever.
In fact, I would say the reasonable expectation is, if any company shuts down, I no longer have access or at the very least I'm out for myself with the product, whichever it is, functional or not.
I think that's reasonable.
I'm not saying that's a good thing, I'm saying that's the reasonable expectation, and you wanting access BEYOND company departure it's not, and it's up to you to make the case for your expectation.

>>714891704
did you know that jews are happy when you say "anti-semetic" instead of "anti-jewish"? because that gives them the power to say that you are racist. while if you are anti-jewish you are not racist, because a religion is not a race and you are just saying that you object to the jewish culture and way of life.

>>714872497 (OP)
Pre-release Last Epoch, Smite, Stormgate, League of Legends, Strife, Cosmic Break (already died once), off top of my head.

>>714891960
I deliberately misspell it because I will never call them semites

>>714888509
It's not about the law, it's about your expectations.
>If a seller isn't capable to exactly say when a product expires, it's indefinite.
This is a you thing. This isn't anywhere but in your mind. This is an entitlement you self-appointed. AND you want that codified into law.

>>714892287
You haven't read European law, stop pretending to know anything.

>>714874204
cute bee
what anime?

>>714891361
You live in that world in your mind, but it's funny that if I tried to pitch that in reality you'll shit your pants.
>Games are sold as a new category of products: "Everlasting goods", and as such, have a merket value increase of 200%
>Anon starts a campaing to make the digital goods perishables so it'll go down in price again

>>714891830
Why not? i can still play dos games today as long as I can emulate the old ware it runs on.

>>714892573
GOG games are DRM free and can pretty much lost as long as you can manage them. GOG games cost the same as Steam and are sometimes cheaper.
>what is offline installers
Seriously i am starting to think that some people on /v/ don't actually buy videogames.

>>714891830
This is why the SKG initative is important to get legislators to clarify the interpretation of the law in this specifc context.
My view (not my interpretation of the law) is that developers/traders need to better clarify what kind of product they are selling and for this information to be made explicit to the consumer. Because a consumer is more able to discern, or at least stands to be better informed, on the value of the product they are looking to purchase.

>>714892403
>"You haven't read the law"
>Ask for the law
>"Law doesn't matter yap yap"
Pick one nigger

>>714878645
just don't buy rancid meat then, what are you dumb?
don't buy moldy bread
don't buy expired products
don't buy cars with factory faults
don't buy electronics with planned obsolescence
don't buy toxic cosmetic
just don't buy all these things you motherfucking nigger, what are you, stupid? can't you just tell them apart at a glance you mongoloid?

>>714892732
GOG should unironically start advertising their games as FOREVER GAMES you can keep forever.

>>714892789
Both are true though

>>714889526
Not really, I hate that always online games force you to play the latest patch. I used to like path of exile before the game went full retard but guess what that's not allowed, I wish I had a chance to go back to patch 1.0 from like 2013 but that's impossible.
Not that SKG would cover a case like this but there are plenty of reasons to hate always online gaming. If I see a game is a live service to me the game is dead from day 1, SKG at least has a chance to reduce these types of games existing.

>>714891830
>if any company shuts down
That's not what this whole thing is about.
Did Ubisoft shut down when they revoked their customer's right to use the licensed copy of The Crew they purchased?
Did Blizzard shut down when doing the same with Overwatch 1?
Is EA shutting down when they shut down Anthem?
These companies have been utilising legally grey-areas for decades to push anti-customer practices and predatory monetisation.
If I own a tangible licensed copy to a game that gives me the right to enjoy said product for and indefinite amount of time, then the same can be said for intangible digital licensed copies.
There's a reason I can play still Battlefield 2 on private servers on the PS2 today and Overwatch 1 is dead. It's not technical problems.

>>714892732
>GOG games are DRM free and can pretty much lost as long as you can manage them
That is fine, because they are sold like that, games A.
Always online games are not sold like that. They are sold as games B
You want to convert games B into games A when it suits you (at end of life)

Games deserve to be killed. Nothing lasts forever, not even (you)

>>714893069
Yes and?

>>714892789
>>714891289
Surely you can do the rest and search it yourself.

>>714872497 (OP)
>live service
Dumb nigger ape did not even read the petition he signed. Illiterate signers should have their signatures invalidated.

>>714892527
Idolmaster

>>714892787
I agree with you

>>714893103
dev time, dev costs, etc

>>714893018
Disregarding my view on SKG, I've played enough fps to know I want this model of pulling the plug, and it's for the better.
Consumers, and specially videogame consumers, are specially retarded.
They will say both "I want less queu times" and "I want more modes" and they will never understand that it's not possible to deliver both things.
Videogame players are absolute retards and needs to be sheeped around, even if it means killing the old modes(games) so the playerbase can be funneled into the most popular lobbies.
Yes the 5 niggers that play the mode "deathmatch, without bots, point based, no team swap, elimination style" will bitch and moan.
But the overall enjoyment for the majority of the playerbase will be sated.
Yes, gamers are retards and yes they had to do shit like this in every single fps

>>714893675
>dev time and costs
not my problem

>>714872559
Dishonest answer.

>>714893675
>yes goy you actually want us to take away your games
fuck off with your gaslighting you shameless corpo shill
people were up in arms when actiblizz removed TCP/IP Multiplayer options from Diablo II Resurrected

>>714893926
>people were up in arms when actiblizz removed TCP/IP Multiplayer options from Diablo II Resurrected
My analogy of server/modes merging is more accurate to what SKG wants to adress tho.

blizzard's TOS explicitly says they reserve the right to nuke your account or the entire game at any time for no reason. the TOS/EULAs of today are very clear on how you're not entitled to any ownership. the argument being made by the SKG initiative is that these TOS/EULAs are so absurdly anti-consumer as to be effectively illegal. every form of commerce takes one of two forms:
>you pay for a product- you own the product forever. it may degrade or be destroyed, but the seller will not change it or destroy it after sale since it's no longer their property
>you pay for a service- you have an explicit length of service written into the up front contract. the seller is obliged to render you that service for the full duration promised, or be sued for breach of contract
only video games (and mostly only ubislop) will be sold to you without an explicit limited duration of access AND be randomly destroyed or changed after sale against your will. this goes against basic human concepts of property/ownership that have existed for centuries. it is very easy for game developers to not do this, just like it is easy for developers to not install a bitcoin miner on your computer, and it is easy for developers to not break the law in thousands of other ways.

>>714893675
>dev time, dev costs
And? These companies make millions, they can afford it.

>>714894105
You signed the EULA and agreed to the ToS. Your fault stupid SKGtranny. Learn to vote with your wallet.

>>714893675
>gamers are retarded
Isn't valid for anti-customer practices in court.
Though I agree otherwise we wouldn't be at the point where a AAA company writes in their EULA that they reserve the right to ORDER you to destroy any and all copies of the license you purchased. Hence why it's about time a legislative body clarified the legal state of a purchased licensed copy of digital games that don't have an estimated ("whenever between now and in the foreseeable future" is not reasonable nor valid) or clear expiration date.

>>714894515
good goy

>>714894105
>every form of commerce takes one of two forms
I don't know lad, I can immediatly think of two examples that divert from that
>Purchase an annual pool pass to my community pool. The number of people starts to dwindle over the years. Eventually, I and another dude are the only owners of the annual pool pass: The price of the pass is not enough to cover the fees of a lifesaver, and due to law regulations, I can't let you in and operate in the pool without a lifesaver or be liable, so I have to deny you access
and
>buying the promise of a product, like kickstarter. I don't have neither the product nor the service, only the promise that will be delivered (maybe)

>>714894515
>I should be allowed to murder you because I wrote it on page 352 of a contract you signed
not how contract law works lolbert

>>714892732
i remember when the hitman trilogy was taken off gog cause you still can't play that shit offline for no good reason. was amazing.

>>714893675
>even if it means killing the old modes(games) so the playerbase can be funneled into the most popular lobbies
Whenever I think I've already seen the stupidest shit anti-SKG arguments, somehow someone finds a way to take it to the next level. The playerbase of any new game released depends entirely on its own quality and whatever market it appeals to. To believe players willing to play a new online game are so scarce they need to be pulled off decades old games with private servers has to be the most insane and retarded thing I have ever read. You need to kill yourself asap.

Reminder that it doesn't matter if the retards arguing against SKG are being ironic or "trolls". They are still spreading malicious propaganda against the movement.

>>714894689
You would get a refund on the pool pass
Kickstarter is basically donations

>>714894787
that doesn't make him logically wrong tho

>>714890738
it does and its really funny that it happened to him

>>714894515
And it's not legally binding in countries with basic customer protection laws for the reasons mentioned in the post you linked drone.

>>714873983
I prefer my own shit government over outside of the borders corpo shit government. Easier to deal with.

>>714894873
>YOU VILL PLAY ZE WAY WE DIKTATE AND ONLY VHEN VE LET YOU SCHNITZEL
how about you shove a cactus covered in fire ants up your ass

>>714894848
I would be completely ok for the dev refunding the 20 guys that were still playing The Crew 1 when the plug was pulled.
I think that's fair and we wouldn't have this shitty drama.

>>714895054
>still playing
No, everyone that had access to the game should get a refund. If I buy a pool pass that I don't use, I'd still get a refund if it gets revoked.

>>714894689
>pool pass
you paid for a year's worth of access and got it. if you paid for an annual pass and it got voided you are entitled to sue for breach of contract
>kickstarter
basically a conditional pre-order. you get your money back if the goal isn't reached

>>714893675
>dev time, dev costs, etc
It's called the cost of doing business. Would you complain that car manufacturers are mandated to have seatbelts, despite increasing the cost in manufacturing and testing? Only with video game do you see people arguing that companies ought to be free to save dimes to not make sure it's still playable after the end of support.

Oh and the dev cost is laughably low too.

>>714895054
That is pretty fair. But what if this was done at a larger scale? Imagine Elite: Dangerous getting the plug pulled on it even though they have something like 5000 players consistently (stagnant but consistent). Is it practical for Frontier to refund everyone or is it a better compromise for both parties for them to include an end of life plan for the game that means fans can continue playing in some limited capacity (effectively reimbursing players) and presenting a safe exit for the developer free from future liabilities?

>>714895216
You know what, no refund for anyone lol
If you don't take the middle ground you'll take nothing.

>>714895279
>>714894848
The annua pass didn't get voided. You have access to the pool. You can go to the pool. You just can't use it without a lifesaver. And your annual pass is not enough to cover the lifesaver fee.

>>714895347
This
Kindly reminder that AAA companies spend more money trying to sell you the game than making the game, let alone if it's a saga.

>>714894689
Nice gaslight.
The pool would refund the customer or be fined by local customer protection law.
You don't buy a promise of a product. You invest/donate to support the creation of said product knowing fully that there is 50/50 chance you will not see said product for reasons.

>>714894634
Lots of companies put shit in their EULAs that can't be legally enforced because they don't expect anyone to actually sue them over it, and the gray area of whether it's actually allowed to pull the plug on a game with no estimated end of life date according to EU law is one of those things. Having less ambiguity over consumer rights is absolutely not a bad thing and anyone who tells you otherwise is a shill or libertarian bootlicker.

>>714873786
Cope

>>714895594
kindly reminder that money that should be spent on games is being funneled to the industry shills posting in this very thread

>>714895590
your hoa scammed you anon. get your money back

>>714873983
Based

>>714895590
>You just can't use it without a lifesaver.
As a kid my dad lived in an apartment complex that had a community pool and there wasn't a livesaver there yet we could use the pool whenever.

>>714894723
Nooooooooo! Corporations should be allowed to fuck me in the ass! Muh government outreach! The free market will take care of it! NOOOOOOOO

>>714895590
>middle ground
I should own what I buy is non-negotiable

>>714894689
Beyond what everyone else has already said I'm pretty sure Kickstarter makes it very clear you are not guaranteed of or entitled to a finished product when you back a campaign. It's basically one big I.O.U.

Thor-bros....we're getting cooked from all sides

>>714895554
The other scenario implies an end of life refund as a token of good will towards a small community that can't support the gam, but still enjoyed the game, like a farewell offering/present from the game's team.
But if 5000 people that can support a game are going to be unplugged for other reasons, but the game it's profitable, then it's a different subject, in my mind. That almost seems like corporate fraud or something

>>714872497 (OP)
I don't care because i only touch games when they're long dead but still playable 100% without the publisher

Sometimes i even buy them

>>714892573
Nah just cap the prices or legalise piracy

>>714895814
how does that applies here if nobody is selling the pool access, nigger
ok?
If you drown it's on you, there's noone liable there

>>714895969
I know.
It directly adresses the other guy's point that "there are only two forms of commerce"

>>714895590
What kinda shitty place do you live in where
>you pay an annual pass to enjoy access to a pool
>"we don't have lifesavers because we can't pay them but you can watch the water if you want!"
That pool would be fined and/or sued into oblivion before having its Day one opening lmao.

>>714876863
Indie devs already release dedicated servers for their online games. I just hosted one last night.

>>714895987
It's beyond hilarious to see people from every side of the internet come together to shit all over roachsoftware

Im more convinced day by day pirate is a plant

>>714896147
Because the whole "you can't use it without the life guard" thing sounds fake and made up.
The pool is there.
The pool is usable.
There is no reason to not allow the people who have paid for the pass to use it.
"Only two people paying for the pass don't allow us to cover cleaning costs so we just drained the thing" ok now the pool isn't usable and the pass is worthless.
Cost of the pass should be refunded.
"Pool is entirely usable but we won't let you use it because...we don't want you to" is fuckery that shouldn't be legal.

>>714896147
pool is closed, autist.

>>714896421
>getting danked on by notch
That's gotta be awful lol

>>714896261
Would be an interesting case because the suing would be even greater if you drown without a lifesaver.
One would obviously take precedence over the other, tho I don't know which one.
For a private beach I don't think you'll be even allowed to operate

>>714896421
even the king of breadtube himself, hbomber, shat on thor. its nice when everyone from all sides can agree on when someone is acting like an obnoxious cunt.

>>714896147
>how does that applies here if nobody is selling the pool access
Then you either
>make your customers sign a non-negotiable contract stating the Pools's establishment is not responsible for any drowning occurring during days where life savers are present
>refund your customers that purchased the annual pass you yourself stated "didn't get voided"
>prepare to eat a fine and a class-action lawsuit
For your sake I hope you don't ever open a service business.

>>714897114
No one would sue their local community pool. You SKGtrannies are clinically insane.

>>714896421
>a few weeks ago notch was having a piss fight with Billy Mitchell and clearly hates him
>come a few weeks later both of them look at pirate and agree to dunk on him
Imagine being such an unlikeable egotist that you essentially unite people who hate eachother to hate you instead

>>714897243
>pay for something
>don't get it
>no, you cannot take legal action here! you are insane!

>>714896003
Even if the game was unprofitable, the EULA for Elite: Dangerous doesn’t state that they can terminate the license in any instance apart from the user being in breach of said EULA. They do state that they can offer online services as long as they are able, but there isn’t clear language on what this means for the ‘game’ or product in question.
Whatever your view on the matter is, I think the language and interpretation of the law needs to be tested and better defined.

>>714897114
>prepare to eat a fine and a class-action lawsuit
You kids are too entitled this days
You think your "CONSOOOM rights!!" take precend over anything else because you live a coddled life and don't interact with the real world.
>Pay a toll to have access to place, annually
>Go there because I feel like it one day
>A man stops me before place
>"You can't get in, there's a black hole rift reality warping structure in the middle, we can't let anyone pass"
>Reasonable dude: "Ok"
>Anon on 4chan: "MY RIGHTS ARE VIOLATED PREPARE FOR CLASS-ACTION LAWSUITS"

>>714875816
>The EU wants you to own nothing and be content with that pathetic existence
Article 17.1 of the EU Charter. Read it.

>>714897582
>I think the language and interpretation of the law needs to be tested and better defined.
Certainly. that's not what SKG wanted tho, at least not primarely or on marketing

I dont get why companies are so angry about it. Didnt they read the social contract? It is written there that you own things you buy? Didnt they know that Europe is more willing to protect consumer rights? I think they just made a big mistake employing predatory consumer practices here and it is a great opportunity for them to learn on their mistakes and not employ such predatory practices going further

>>714897767
Dis?

>>714876571
>There isn't a single EULA or TOS that explicitly gives the right to permanet, infinite access forever to the digital software
There doesn't need to be. In most countries in the EU, that right follows from the right of ownership over the copy of the digital software you bought. In the EU you buy the copy of the software - not the license. The license is just an ancillary agreement to the sales contract, and is incapable of redefining that you purchased a good with ownership rights.
The license doesn't need to limit distribution or reproduction rights either, because under EU copyright legislation, you already do not have those rights on copyright protected works unless they're explicitly granted to you. The only reason you need a license is if said license actually WOULD grant those rights to you.
But ownership and right to use? Those you have in perpetuity, and they cannot be limited.

The only way to limit them is to explicitly offer a service contract instead.
Which requires a fixed period and an ending date, after which it can possibly be renewed.
Which is not how games are sold. (Apart from MMOs like WoW, of course.)

>>714872497 (OP)
That argument is void because they can just use steamworks servers instead.
/thread

>>714897621
>closing something for safety reasons because you are lazy and being forced to close it for safety reasons outside of your control are the same thing

>>714872497 (OP)
>Name 5 always online live service indie games
> Every Single Game with Denuvo

>>714875816
>The EU wants you to own nothing and be content with that pathetic existence
>burger cannot comprehend a system where the government works for you.

Pirate Software is an unlikable fag, that's why he's getting shit on, but his points are correct. I shouldn't have to release my proprietary code, I shouldn't have to pay to maintain 3rd party licenses, and I shouldn't have to give players a chance to desecrate my creation by modifying it without my consent. I don't want 4chan nazi's spray painting swastikas all over my live service lobby hub and associating me with nazis because of it, and I don't want freak pedophile gooners making my characters naked and innapropriate and unpure.

>>714898123
This kills the game company

>It's not gonna be retroactive.

That I understand
BUT
Does this mean 'this will only apply to games that PUBLISH after this point' or 'games that GO OFFLINE after this point'? Because those two are very different.

>>714898017
Game companies are led by people who would sell their soul to the devil if it made them 5% more revenue this quarter.

>>714898417
Probably the former, but I want the latter because it would be really fucking funny.

>>714897243
Then the local City Council/Municipality/Whatever body rules the local city is held responsible. Where the fuck do you even live??
>>714897621
>>"You can't get in, there's a black hole rift reality warping structure in the middle, we can't let anyone pass"
>>Reasonable dude: "Ok"
>Reasonable dude
A reasonable dude would ask for proof. If proof was given he'd have the right to ask for refund. If the refund was refused because "we never knew a black hole rift reality warping structure would appear in the middle of our place, and we don't have an insurance that covers exceptional/extreme disaster" he'd have the right to sue and would win in any country with basic protection laws.
Keep gaslighting. I'm sure these arguments will serve you well in a legal case.

>>714898276
>I shouldn't have to release my proprietary code, I shouldn't have to pay to maintain 3rd party licenses, and I shouldn't have to give players a chance to desecrate my creation by modifying it without my consent
You don't have to do any of those things you retard.

>>714898417
It would only apply to new games made after X date.

you and every single fucking retarded who signed this retarded petition did nothing but accelerate the death of video games as an industry. there's absolutely nothing of value coming out of this since it's just forcing devs to run servers forever at a loss or hand out tools for others to do so when normally they're meant to be private shit. they're just not going to bother making games anymore for you to waste your unemployed ass on or simply won't be releasing anything in the EU anymore. you are genuinely fucked in the head if you sign this petition.

>>714898276
Then don't sell it

>>714879827
>Ubisoft requires you to destroy their games
They already do a good enough job at that by themselves, I'd say.

>>714898208
If I want to see Jumanji, and Netflix has it.
And I sign in to Netflix for a year at the start of the year, because I really like Jumanji and wwant to see it every month...
But Netflix removes Jumanji from their catalog in October...(it gives me a warning/headup as normal "This movie will leave the catalog in a month")
Am I entitled to ask for Netflix for a refund for November and December?

>>714898276
>I shouldn't have to release my proprietary code,
you don't
>I shouldn't have to pay to maintain 3rd party licenses,
you don't
>and I shouldn't have to give players a chance to desecrate my creation by modifying it without my consent.
you don't
>I don't want 4chan nazi's spray painting swastikas all over my live service lobby hub and associating me with nazis because of it,
you don't
>and I don't want freak pedophile gooners making my characters naked and innapropriate and unpure.
I'm imagining you naked right now anon

>>714872497 (OP)
Does anyone have the pic of moldman saying thank you to maldman for being the bad guy?

Good news everyone!

>>714898670
No, you paid for access to Netflix, not Jumanji. Now if you had bought a copy of Jumanji, but you could only watch it by connecting to their server, and then they closed down the server, then you'd have an accurate analogy.

>>714898783
Why is that an accurate analogy? You don't "buy a copy" of an always online game

>>714898503
>>714898706

This is why you fags make no sense. If it's vague and open ended, then this initiative is not worth talking about and completely pointless. If it's developed to the capacity in which people suggest, then you are absolutely talking about releasing server code, maintaining end of life cycles, and putting your property in the hands of others. You are also absolutely assuring that new live service games never happen and that multiple live service titles don't get maintained.

Also, don't forget that you are opening the doors of law in video games - what's to stop other laws about getting put in place?

>>714898619
My contract says my game is a service, if you don't want to pay for service or if I decide to stop it, then it is what it is.

>>714876571
I own objects with lifetime guarantees.
I own objects people could use in a hundred years once the climate boils us back to ponds.

>>714898618
>accelerate the death of video games as an industry
I already signed, no need to convince me further

>>714898971
Your contract will not be allowed in the EU, sucks to suck.

>>714898276
>but his points are correct
kys jason.

>>714898954
>buy a literal, physical copy of a game
>game has DRM
>DRM needs to connect to server
>server is shut down
>you are not deprived of your property, the physical disc and its contents in your possession but unavailable for your use

>>714898971
what is the duration of your service that you bill your customers for? is it a monthly subscription? annual? "until I feel like stopping" is not a legitimate service contract and falls afoul of consumer protections

>>714899096
And that is why the EU is an irrelevant continent that doesn't make shit anymore.

>>714898971
>putting your property in the hands of others
You already did when you sold it, you don't have a say in it anymore.

>>714898670
Netflix doesn't offer yearly plans, they offer only monthly subscriptions.
So you'd just have to stop purchasing your monthly subscription before October.
It's almost like they thought about that possibility.

>>714899178
If the only "innovation" is innovating new ways of exploiting people I want to go back to the caves.

>>714899178
Okay and?
You'll make the stuff and we'll demand that you make it better just for us.

>>714899164
Let's flip it on you instead, most live service games are completely free, you don't have to spend a single dollar if you don't want to. What does the company owe to the majority of the consumer base?

>>714881037
You own it in perpetuity unless the period of contract limits it in a legal way.

Terms of contract that make an agreement binding on the consumer while performance of the contract relies on a condition realized by the will of the publisher alone, are on a black list of unacceptable contract terms in the EU. If a EULA were to contain any, the entire EULA does not bind the consumer and you revert to the basic ownership rights over a copy of a creative work, as per the law in most EU member states.

The only thing publishers can do is to objectively quantify when the contract ends, with a termination date set in stone.
Or to objectively qualify verifiable conditions under which they would be allowed to end the contract (e.g. when less than N remaining players online; and they can show notarized validated statistics of this).

Moreover, there are certain requirements to the form in which such essential precontractual information on the nature of the contract must be handed to the consumer. The EU deems mentioning in ancillary terms and conditions such as a EULA insufficient for such purposes.

So publishers would actually have to plaster the termination date or the exact verifiable conditions under which they may cease service, directly on the storefront page or on the front of the physical box. Think "smoking kills" badges.

Anything less than that, legally doesn't stick.
Under CURRENT legislation even.
The EU has just been notoriously lethargic on enforcement of it.

>>714899148
You are dodging the netflix analogy now
I'm with you on that one, the DRM is on paper used for license checks and whatnot.

But what about a pure live service game?

>>714898971
nigga, all you need to do is have EOL plans in place. all you have to do is say "i plan to end the game around such and such date" or release some tools that let users host servers.

Only indie live service game I can think of is Outlast Trials but I'm sure they'll be fine with spending some cash to swap it to p2p.

>>714899341
Or I just don't sell in your markets.

>>714899321
That innovation is why you are getting more games from different companies and studios. Unless you want to live in EA Ubisoft hell, be my guest then.

>>714898618
Bring it on. I have a huge backlog anyway.

>>714899439
>The sale of digital goods is generally categorized as the sale of a product, not a service

>>714899247
>If I want to see Jumanji, and Netflix has it.
>And I sign in to Netflix for a month at the start of the month, because I really like Jumanji and want to see it every week...
>But Netflix removes Jumanji from their catalog two weeks in...(it gives me a warning/headup as normal "This movie will leave the catalog in a week")
>Am I entitled to ask for Netflix for a refund for the last week without Jumanji?

>>714873008
>buy a book
>take care of it
>suddenly they announce that the book series is coming to an end and you have until the end of the month to finish it
>dye packs explode and stain every copy, leaving the cover unscathed
>this is okay because you only paid for it once

>>714899536
>generally
Ok, let's say this isn't one of the "general" cases
Now what

>>714899641
That's how modern ink cartridges work today. Your subscription runs out and those cartridges stop working.

>>714899517
Nigga please, westoid studios haven't made a good game in forever and SKG would increase innovation because now you actually have to make a game people actually want to move to and can't just repackage the same live service slop and disable the old one.

>>714899443
The end of life date is when the market determines the end of life date is, and if the market determines that my game is no longer worth playing in 7 years and I begin operating at a noticeable capital loss where it's better for me to allocate resources somewhere else, then my game ends at that time. But it might end sooner than that, it might end later than that.

But lets use your example: Lets say my games service ends on April 8th 2030. Lets say my game completely flops right out of the gate, I just lost millions of dollars on my game. Well, I still have to maintain the servers, what does that consist of? Does that mean I have to have the same player capacity to maintain those servers? Does that mean I have to keep bleeding money out for 5 years because 100 people want to play my game still? Do I have to forfeit my code to them and let them maintain it and then take a loss on the developed property as well? Do I still have to pay 3rd parties to maintain it? That sounds like a lot of fucking money to bleed instead of cutting it off and moving to the next thing.

>>714899641
>take care of it
What part of that is your part, when you buy access to the always online
Where do you come in to "take care of it"

>>714899768
Should also be illegal, it's also so easy to spoof I jailbroke my wife's printer within 30 minutes of buying it and now it uses all the ink instead of 3/4ths of it before begging you to throw it away.

I remember Bungie got sued because some writer claimed they plagiarized his work for Destiny. Now, Bungie is infamous for just straight up destroying paid content for Destiny sometimes from what I understand, that content is straight up gone, fuck you. So they had to show Wikipedia excerpts and YouTube clips to the judge to prove there wasn't any plagiarism going on, but the judge said that wasn't satisfactory and that he wanted to see the actual content, but that content simply doesn't exist anymore. It's gone.

Fuck these Jews. They deserve to get dicked over.

>>714899768
And that is not OK and needs to stop because that's not how it used to work, and it's not how it needs to work because it's been proven they can work just fine without it.

>>714899817
Concord gave out full refunds if you need a real world case.

>>714899817
People who bought it, bought a service lasting until a specific date, you keep it online or you refund them for the time. That's how every service ever works. I don't understand why you find this confusing.

>>714899881
Stored the digital good on a local hard drive and maintained the hard drive so it could be used at any time. Same way I put the book on a bookshelf and kept it safe.

>>714899629
you should, you are paying for a service, you decide to completely stop using the service because you don't want it anymore, you should only pay the amount of days you used the service and not one more.
i won't be surprised if you find this wrong

>>714884037
Oh it's actually much better than that, anon.
The current officials involved will be the working groups under the EU's digital task force.
You know- the same people that cowed Apple into forcing iOS to be opened up to alternate store fronts? And allow sideloading? The ones that keep pressing Apple to do it right, every time they try to apply malicious compliance? Yeah- those people.

What was it that JTH said? "Eat my entire ass," right?
Well- they're not going to stop at the ass. They're going to eat the AAA publishers whole, for lunch. And shit them out by dinner time to make room for the likes of Adobe by expanding into the general-purpose software ecosystem.

>>714873983
>>SO THAT LIVE SERVICE GARBAGE NEVER DIES!
The exact opposite. Live service games will die and then be reborn with community servers that are significantly better.

>>714899817
releasing server tools doesn't mean you have to forfeit any fucking code you absolute retard. besides tf2 not a single valve game is open source, and yet i can still host a server for any of their games that i want. valve could shut down all of their l4d2 servers right now and i could still host a game on my local machine right now. this is absolutely not hard to implement.

>>714898971
If your digital service is purchasable with a clearly set duration, that's fine. MMOs that ONLY have a renewable subscription offer for example.
If your digital service is purchasable with a vaguely defined duration, that's legally a grey-area and arguably borders on anti-customer practices.

>>714872497 (OP)
I just want live service games to die, simple as.

>>714899365
not what we're talking about. free games are not part of the SKG initiative. why is it so hard for you people to read the petition you're commenting on?

>>714899768
That's why this nonsense has to be fought at every front, corpos normalize this shit and point to each other that it's okay because the other guy is also doing it. Fortunately it seems like right to repair is also slowly coming back.

>>714872497 (OP)
Dragon Fable
Adventure Quest
Adventure Quest Worlds
RuneScape (was indie until 15 years ago)
Among Us
Rust
Don't Starve Together

>>714899742
>let's say
Why? Why would we say that? Are you going to explain to me why the sale of a game would not be the sale of a good?

>>714883575
I didn't know software wears down over time with use, but now that I know that you've convinced me.

>>714899517
That's fine, no one cares if you don't sell here

>>714899993
Yes, as they should have, because it was noticeably terrible and completely unplayable. I would give out refunds as well, and kill my game off. That's not what SKG is about, SKG would say that Concorde servers have to remain maintained and operational for 5 more years if their service end date is in 5 years. It's actually an example of how badly a company could potentially get raped because of it.

>>714900007
So if I run and maintain a game for 10 years, and you spent $100 in that time, I'm supposed to refund you for any purchase in that 10 years? Let me go to Chili's and ask them for all my money spent on appetizers back.

>>714900130
That's great for Valve games, in fact, maybe it's even a selling point for them. How does that apply to live service games?

>>714892573
If they could sell you games at double the price they'd be doing that already.

>>714900413
If you release concord you deserve to get fucked into bankruptcy. But also it wouldn't do that, you can do whatever if you give refunds.

>>714900202
>corpos normalize this shit
I remember when corpos tried to normalize DRM in fucking tractors. Like they didn't want farmers to be able to fix those things by themselves. If you've met a single farmer in your life you'd know that those guys pride themselves on being able to fix everything by themselves. It was not a popular decision, and I think they stopped doing that shit because nobody bought those fucking DRM-riddled things.

And yes, we live in a future where even a fucking tractor can have DRM in it. I hate the cyberpunk future.

>>714900196
Then what are we having a conversation about? Because if we're not talking about free service games, then we're talking about fucking nothing, this initiative is completely pointless and just inviting the law in for absolutely no reason. And we're talking about City Of Heroes, then my advice is to grow the fuck up, unironically. If you're a 38 year old man still obsessed with games from 20 years ago, it's time to move on with life.

>>714900413
If you give out a full refund they have been reimbursed for losing ownership. no money stolen. I mean if Ubisoft is willing to pay every owner of The Crew refunds that would be fair too.

>>714900320
Because you are not buying the game, you are buying the server access to it

>>714900413
>SKG would say that Concorde servers have to remain maintained and operational for 5 more years if their service end date is in 5 years.
so don't promise 5 years of service of a dogshit game nobody wants to play. is that really so hard?

>>714900413
>SKG would say that Concorde servers have to remain maintained and operational for 5 more years
You clearly can't read. Nice talking to you, disingenuous shill.

>>714900592
Wrong, when I bought it, it said: "buy this game"

>>714900592
>you are not buying the game
Oh no? Then you are not, say, downloading any game files on your device, not installing anything? Because if you download and install any software, then you bought that software. Hence the sale of a good, not a service.

>>714900532
we're having a conversation about how when people pay for a product they are entitled to keep that product. you would know this if you bothered to read paragraph 1 of the initiative you are sperging out about.

>>714894105
>blizzard's TOS explicitly says they reserve the right to nuke your account or the entire game at any time for no reason.

And that would be unenforceable in the EU, thanks to the Unfair Contract Terms Directive. It defines a black list of terms which shall never bind the consumer, among which is listed any terms that have the object or effect of
> making an agreement binding on the consumer whereas provision of services by the seller or supplier is subject to a condition whose realization depends on his own will alone
>
> -- https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:31993L0013#d1e32-33-1

They put terms into the EULA that try to reserve the right to unilaterally terminate the contract at their own discretion? Fine- that just means any term in the contract that attempts to make it an actual binding contract on the consumer is void. The EULA binds the publisher; but it ceases to bind the consumer. In its entirety.

They continue to be bound to offer you everything they promised under contract.
While you are under ZERO legal obligation to follow your duties under contract. It doesn't bind you. None of it. The term that would've made it binding, is unenforceable.

>>714899629
You are entitled to ask for a refund yes.
Doesn't mean that you will be refunded since you didn't purchase a weekly access to Jumanji.

>>714900601
It's easy to use Concorde as an example, pick a different game.

>>714900607
Thank you for your surrender, get a job you dumb faggot. Imagine sucking government cock, next you're gonna tell me garbage men deserve more than $15 an hour for throwing garbage bags in a truck. Fucking loser.

>>714900607
And you clearly can't decipher that this could happen to any other company that bleeds out loss and is forced to get raped over their time period before shutting down their game.

>>714900565
Why does Ubisoft need to refund for The Crew? You played a game, they made it live service, you knew this going in, the game shut down. End of story. move on. You might not like it, but inviting the government in vs complaining about the company and spreading horrible PR is a far better trade off. You really should not want the government doors opened up to gaming.

>>714900896
This kills the American

>>714900253
Don't artix games have an offline launcher now or something? It would be trivially easy to run them locally but they are outside the scope of the initiative anyway because they are F2P games, same with runescape.
Rust has dedicated servers, pretty sure don't starve doesn't rely on central server for it's multiplayer or at least there's no reason why it would need to, same is true for among us.

>>714901002
Because it's an unfair contract under the EU.

>>714901002
blizztranny meltie kek

>>714900896
"oh noooooooooo corporations can't fuck my ass anymore" screamed the lolbert

>>714873983
I'd rather be a game owner instead of a game renter, and if I need to government to step in to ensure that, then so be it.

>>714901002
You fags really can't stop this "corpos bullying you with government is fair but never ever do the opposite" garbage.

corponiggers and their cronies on suicide watch

>>714900413
I bought the game for 10 years it's alive for 10 years or you refund. All in-game purchases would be made on the understanding that they also last until the end of game service (or whatever different conditions are set), if they are made unavailable before agreed on time, refund.

>>714898670
By removing Jumanji from the catalogue they redefined the characteristics of the product.
Under EU legislation, this means that yes- you have a legal right to terminate your contract and they are legally required to refund you for the period of time remaining that you had actually paid for.

>those examples to try and demonstrate why SKG would be a bad thing
>that pool analogy
Holy fucking kek what era are we living in?!

>>714898783
>No, you paid for access to Netflix, not Jumanji.
By removing Jumanji from the service, however, they redefined what the characteristics of the product "Netflix subscription" are.
Because you can no longer watch Jumanji on it.

Alteration of the terms of contract OR the characteristics of the product are both valid reasons under the laws of EU member states to terminate your contract with the service and be owed a partial refund proportionate to the time that was remaining on your subscription.

This follows from the Unfair Contract Terms Directive:
Terms that allow the other party to contract to alter the terms of contract or alter the product itself, are only enforceable if they coincide with timely notice to the consumer and allow the consumer to terminate their running contract for a partial refund. In all other cases, such terms are deemed unfair and do not bind the consumer. I.e. them altering the terms of contract or altering the product, is a breach of contract you can sue for.

>>714874737
>says wrong thing
>gets corrected
>I did NOT want to hear that

>>714901125
Unfair contract to who? The companies? I agree, if I offer you the service of playing my game because I don't want you to own it, that's too fucking bad. To the consumer? You vote with your money, don't vote on a game I make. This is the EU's biggest issue? Not the billions in welfare going to sand niggers and 3rd worlders to inhabit EU countries? Gamers truly are the most entitled class, it's embarrassing.

>>714901237
Corpos aren't bullying you, it's a voluntary contract. If you buy service to a live service game, you don't buy ownership. You volunteered to be apart of that journey, the company has no obligation to fulfill an unforeseen ownership portion of the deal. Vote with your dollars, not your government. The second you start taking away voluntary contracts with corporations and individuals is the second you open up the involuntary portal to the nether. What's next that a live service has to provide? Full refund for the entire time? Pay for the servers since the server tools are too complex? Have to release patches to maintain a release on new OS's? Don't invite the government into the room.

>>714901389
You didn't buy the game, you bought access to my service. My service ends when I've fulfilled my obligation. In the economics spin of this, you will indirectly cause less games to be made, which means less jobs in the gaming industry. Why do I have to subsidize your version of communism and not be able to expand and pay my employees to make more games or better games? Likewise, I would be willing to charge you a vastly higher amount for a single player game in order to get my moneys worth out of developing it.

>>714901115
They have a launcher, but you still need to connect to their service. You can host your own server and connect to it, but that would be illegal.
>they are outside the scope of the initiative anyway because they are F2P games, same with runescape.
They have microtransactions, so they're not actually out of scope.
>pretty sure don't starve doesn't rely on central server for it's multiplayer
Afaik their dedicated server is tied to their own DRM service, while the server which is built into the game client relies on Steam DRM. Not sure if it has a LAN mode.
In any case, they have microtransactions as well, which SKG would want to tackle.
>same is true for among us
Among Us does not officially have dedicated servers. It only supports their own servers or LAN mode. If you want to avoid their own servers and you want to avoid installing a VPN to play LAN games remotely then you have to use 3rd party clients or mods. Which are technically illegal.
And, again, this game also has microtransactions which SKG wants to persist somehow after the live service ends.

>>714899178
>irrelevant continent that doesn't make shit anymore
Y'know- except housing the only company in the world capable of building the fabricators that etch modern micro chips and keep the entire digital ecosystem up and running. Or having some of the highest grade steel in the world. Some of the best quality cars. Some of the best wines. Undeniably the best beers. (Bud is horsepiss, Burgers. Deal with it.)
etc.

>>714901893
All this corpo freedom is just used to spread garbage and excuse bad behavior. Bring on the nether I say.

>>714902070
It doesn't bring on bad behavior, just because there's a bunch of faggots in the industry does not excuse how games as a service are meant to be used. If it wasn't for games as a service, you would be paying vastly higher amounts for the amount of intricacy, depth, and creation that goes into them. In a way, the service games are also able to exist because people pay for the microtransactions which allow games to continue to live on and other games to be developed by the company. Live service games are basically a way for poor gamers to rent development services for a game they love for cheap. Turns out making games is expensive as shit.

>>714901893
>My service ends when I've fulfilled my obligation.
yeah, there are limits on what you're allowed to claim is "fulfilling your obligation"

>>714901893
>You didn't buy the game, you bought access to my service. My service ends when I've fulfilled my obligation
And when is your obligation finished? How do you define this? Because in real life this isn't made clear to the consumer in the EULA.

>>714902471
I agree, fulfilling my obligation has the limit of what I agree to in my contract with the users, not the government.

>>714902524
My service ends when I am at a capital loss for maintaining it, as agree upon in my TOS with the user. As it should be.

>>714902527
yeah, there are legal limits on what you're allowed to claim in a contract. the government is in fact very involved, and nonsensical contracts get invalidated by the courts all the time

>>714901082
>>714901182
Oh anons, this >>714900896 is not even the best part yet.
The best part is that THERE IS NO LIMITATION PERIOD on you declaring an unfair term void. And at the point you do, and get a judge to annul it - it retroactively has NEVER existed and aa-----ll the bad shit the company might've done over the course of time to fleece you ALL comes flooding straight back in to drown them, all at once. Because that's how annulment works: you have to retroactively make everything as if the term had never existed.

Have you heard of how submarine patents can lead to patent trolls fucking over companies years after the fact? This is basically that.

>>714873759
>"I paid for eternity" is not an argument, is a description of something you want
because the alternative is an artificial, ill-defined, and unstated expiration date
the bread on my shelf and milk in my fridge have an expiration date clearly printed on them
my vidya doesn't. My vidya can last forever if allowed to. My vidya would only not last forever because someone takes it from me

>>714902616
>>My service ends when I am at a capital loss for maintaining it, as agree upon in my TOS with the user
and that's not legal in the eu lol. not hard to understand

>>714902682
Yes, and the EULA is retarded.

>>714902832
Yes, and the EU is retarded and this inhibits more than it helps.

>>714902616
>My service ends when I am at a capital loss for maintaining it, as agree upon in my TOS with the user. As it should be.
WTF I want a refund I haven't even had a month to play the game.

>>714903016
Anything that gets Ubisoft to sweat this much is a good thing for consumer rights.

>but what if live service or the industry die???
Then good.

>>714902616
>My service ends when I am at a capital loss for maintaining it, as agree upon in my TOS with the user.

That runs afoul of being a term that has the object or effect of
> irrevocably binding the consumer to terms with which he had no real opportunity of becoming acquainted before the conclusion of the contract;
> -- https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:31993L0013#d1e32-33-1

As you have no à priori insight into the financial situation of a company, or its financial trends.
Nor will you, as a lay consumer, ever be able to properly interpret any long term financial forecasting.
Therefore, you cannot become acquainted with what the term of contract actually entails for you.
And thus it runs afoul of the above.
Meaning the term must be deemed unfair.
Meaning it does not bind you.

>>714903102
For the sake of the PR of my company, I would likely distribute a refund.

>>714903116
That is not good, like I said, live service is a way for games to be supported after their release and for cheaper gamers to be able to experience these cycles without the need for routine new releases.

>>714872497 (OP)
signatures got stagnant again
looks like we won't make it after all

>>714901921
>They have a launcher, but you still need to connect to their service. You can host your own server and connect to it, but that would be illegal.
Just make it legal
>Afaik their dedicated server is tied to their own DRM service, while the server which is built into the game client relies on Steam DRM. Not sure if it has a LAN mode.
If it's just DRM than disable it when time comes down to it.
>In any case, they have microtransactions as well, which SKG would want to tackle.
You just have the characters or cosmetics you bought just like you keep expansions/DLCs for every game ever. Don't starve is not really an "online" game in any meaningful sense other than it uses steam, you are making it out as something it really isn't. It's unlikely to run afoul of the initiative.
>LAN mode
I'd say that's probably satisfactory for "reasonably functional", it's a multiplayer game and multiplayer works.
>3rd party clients or mods. Which are technically illegal
Are they though? Anyway tools to create a small VPN are no big deal.

For microtransactions in MMO games, some stuff you can reasonably be said to still own, others like buying gold/levels/consumables/freemium convenience features are less clear what'd happen under the most strict interpretation. Personally I'd be fine with those being gone. I don't think it's worth litigating your additional character slots on a server that doesn't exist.

>>714903262
>like I said, live service is a way for games to be supported after their release and for cheaper gamers to be able to experience these cycles without the need for routine new releases.
I don't care
not being able to play the game after EoS is fucking gay
Not being able to at least play a community hosted version once that day happens is fucking gay
Not being able to infinitely use something i already paid for is fucking gay
you are fucking gay and i hope you get gangraped in detroit

>>714903262
You know, back in the day we would just buy functional and finished online games at launch, they weren't that expensive and then they'd get patches that'd add more stuff. Dunno what's wrong with that.

>>714902616
>My service ends when I am at a capital loss for maintaining it
Give me your bank records so I can make an informed purchase then.

>>714880174
>>false equivalence
What do you mean? I'm pretty sure buying a shitty Ubislop multiplayer online only GaaS experience would probably be worse for your health than doing crack

>>714892112
it still counts since they don't know if it was a deliberate/mocking misspelling or not

>>714903262
Did your live-service game require the purchase of a renewable subscription to access said game with a clearly defined access duration?
Or did it require the one-time purchase of a vaguely undefined access duration?

>>714903261
he literally won't respond to this btw because he knows his business model violates standard western contract law concepts. he has no argument against existing law that has been on the books for centuries. SKG is a slam dunk because it's simply asking for existing legal norms to be explicitly applied to an industry that has been flaunting them up until now. the live service shill ITT has no response to this.

i do not like licking boots
less laws
better
only boot lickers think otherwise

>>714892573
idiot

>>714903842
>t. corporate boot licking enjoyer

Why are americans so eager to advocate against their own interests?

>>714903948 i did more for gaymes than all of You faggots combined ( provided them to those in need )

>>714903431
The information you need for my purchase is if my marketing works, my game looks good, works good, and you like it. Thank you.

>>714903407
Of course you don't care, because you're an entitled spoiled brat.

>>714903430
The games are functional and finished when they release, gamers just expect 1,000 hours of content right out of the gate now. No company is going to develop 1,000 hours of content for a game, that's an insane risk to take on and a massive capital investment to make. This model is far more sustainable.

>>714903801
Renewable subscription is still a service, and a one time purchase is still a service. Both are services, ironically, the one time purchase is actually infinitely superior for the consumer. Again, do you want games to be cheaper to make and develop, or do you want them to be more expensive, risky, and take a longer time to develop? Baldur's Gate 3 took 8 years, I personally don't want to wait 8 years for most games to come out. I'd rather 2 - 3 year cycles of fire and forget, rather than 8 year grandiose risk. At that point, we're selling pharmaceuticals.

>>714872497 (OP)
>Name 5 always online live service indie games
Path of Exhile
Realm of the MadGod
FFXIV
Minecraft (with friend)
many others-

>>714903827
The funniest thing is that all he has to do is declare upfront how long it will last, but he's crying he can't just defraud people.

>>714904330
>The information you need for my purchase is if my marketing works, my game looks good, works good, and you like it. Thank you.
Your EULA is now void >>714903261
Have a nice day.

>>714904601
?

Your question has been answered and the answer is I don't have to tell you when my service ends. You ungrateful faggots want 10 years of updates and then get to claim a refund because I only made it to year 7 despite me spending millions of dollars on my game. I don't owe you shit for a refund when I continue my developmental cycles to make my game better. Otherwise don't bitch and complain when I ask for $30 for each update and DLC. Entitled spoiled brats.

>>714904330
>gamers just expect 1,000 hours of content right out of the gate now
no they just expect it to have roughly as many features and as much content as their predecessors from 1 to 2 decades ago had at launch at the very least, but they never do. see: halo infinite, battlefield 2042, etc

>>714904330
I need to know how long the game will last, and if I need to see your bank records to know that, than I need to see your bank records before making the purchase, otherwise it's literally impossible for me to make an informed purchase, and as such any EULA, or whatever fucking agreement is void.

>>714904725
Thank you for pointing out once again that the EULA is anti-business and anti-consumer. One reddit gold coming your way.

>>714904826
Games have more features now than at any point in time. Take the nostalgia glasses off.

>>714904796
>I only made it to year 7
You broke the contract

>>714904905
Yes, my game needs to last as long as I want it to, as per our agreement. Thank you for asking the question and pointing out why the EULA is anti-business and anti-consumer. You can keep posting more examples to support the dismantling of European Government Structures that stifle innovation.

>>714904956
Oh no, I broke the contract - so now I have to refund AND pay my developers for those 7 years. Congratulations, you just discovered why SGK is a fucking terrible idea.

>>714879550
> The government shouldn't get to decide what can or can't be sold
are you baiting or really this retarded?

>corpo shills back to the cp spam routine
lmao, classic

>>714905126
The government will be dictating what can be bought and sold through regulatory capture. It means less games, with less features, with more expensive trade offs for the consumer. Are you really this retarded and entitled?

>>714905208
The point is that the government has always decided what can and cannot be sold

>>714905316
It has and it shouldn't. Free-markets should be able to easily compete to lower prices for consumers and provide higher quality goods.

>>714905118
Well tough shit, you signed the contract and now you have hold up your end of it. I thought you free market types believed in upholding contracts. Or is following contracts only for the cattle and you randian supermen are allowed to break them at your convenience?

>>714901893
>Vote with your dollars, not your government. The second you start taking away voluntary contracts with corporations and individuals is the second you open up the involuntary portal to the nether.
Companies in your position have effectively distorted free market mechanisms to the point where the expected, textbook outcomes are not what we see in real life. The video game market is basically an oligopoly where you can leverage your endless capital to capture all the specialist talent pools of developers and digital designers, which hamstrings innovation and competition. Companies have been endlessly fucking consumers over with no recourse and are still in business.

>>714905473
Governments forcing economic structure into my contract is not free-market nor capitalism, please see Wealth Of Nations and Road To Serfdom for more context.

>>714905419
>muh free market
almost everything has regulation to some extent, and you don't seem to understand how disasterious it would be if we suddenly decided to get rid of them

Pirate Faggotware lost
Corpos lost
Autist derailer fag lost
Ross won
SKG won
Mold won

>>714905612
Every government already does and for good reason. Ancapistan doesn't and can't exist.

>>714905473
Corporations are using infrastructure that people pay for from their taxes, they will obey the rules or else.
You won't fool anyone, Jason.

>>714905419
>It has and it shouldn't
In a world with zero market regulation you'd see people selling poisonous shit as normal food, drugs so addictive and potent they could kill an elephant and probably even other people and kids
I dont think you realise what you suggest

why did we fall off and fail that hard

>>714905536
They have not distorted free-markets. On the contrary, the companies have met the free-markets demands. Whether you like games or not, is up to you, and likewise, you can always develop your own IP and step into the ring yourself and get your own funding. Any good idea worth funding will get funded, I can promise you that.

There are millions of different games getting developed, some triple A, some indie, some solo dev, some small teams, some big teams, some with multiple studios, some animation studios. If anything, the market has never been more interconnected to bring games to the market and try new things out. Roblox is a prime example of this, same as Fortnite, where now it's getting cheaper to make games, it's getting more accessible to make games, and the quality is only improving, despite what /v/ might say.

>>714905821
I'm not an Ancap nor a libertarian. Governments are here to enforce law and order and protect the citizens of the nation, not to regulate the economic forces and the invisible hand of the free market. Every time the government does, it almost always inevitably makes goods cost more, lowers quality, and limits supply. Games are no different in this endeavor.

>>714905683
And almost everything shouldn't have regulation. It wouldn't be disastrous at all, you should take an afternoon and read into the economics of businesses and profit margins. You'd be shock to find how many companies actually operate on a shoe string to create and improve the world around you.

>>714905821
Every ancap wouldn't survive a week in a real ancap society. They only shill their shitty system because they think they won't be massive losers if the society reset, they will.
The fact that they have no arguments outside of a gay little book is a final nail in the coffin. Proponents of all other systems prove their claims with data or military prowess.

>>714904330
>Both are services
That's arguable.
>the one time purchase is actually infinitely superior for the consumer
Because it gave undetermined duration access to the licensed copy of the video game, the same a physical gives an undetermined duration access to the licensed copy of the video game
>Again, do you want games to be cheaper to make and develop, or do you want them to be more expensive, risky, and take a longer time to develop?
That's not relevant to any of the above.
>Baldur's Gate 3 took 8 years, I personally don't want to wait 8 years for most games to come out. I'd rather 2 - 3 year cycles of fire and forget, rather than 8 year grandiose risk
I'd rather play a game that gives me access to my copy whenever I want and however long it stated I had access to.

>>714906053
People saw it reached 1 mil and stopped caring also the news cycle is one week. They'll probably have ecelebs shill it again near the end of July and it will explode again for a bit.

>>714906005
>You'd see people selling poisonous shit as normal food

False, fraud and murder are not regulations, those are laws meant to protect individuals. You can't just go put poison in Gatorade, you will go to jail.

There's already drugs that can kill people, if anything you should make them legalized and accessible so the suicidal leave the planet and the rest of the good morality humans can take note of how those drugs are dangerous and not to be a degenerate loser. Drug and alcohol use is down in Zoomers btw, they do not want to drink or do drugs. What I suggest overall is living for yourself and your own selfish interest.

>>714906107
What is your net worth fag? Are you just a larping redditor or do you actually profit from the free market? Any proof, homo?

>>714906053
+30k per day is about the average after this thing legitly broke into mainstream in all EU countries.
The +100k per day number was the unreal amount after Pew and Moist weighed in on it and the whole thing catapulted forward with an instant exposure to a huge number of concurrent eyeballs. That influx was never going to last.
The +30k per day though - looks like it will.

>>714904330
>because you're an entitled spoiled brat.
how is accessing the game I PAID FOR WITH MY FUCKING MONEY entitled you fucking piece of shit?
is it not enough i have to paid extra for content in the game and put up with constant patches that eat more and more of my disk space? do i have to pay for getting fucked in the ass too you fucking nigger?

>>714906393
That's not how drugs work you fucking retard. Everyone who smokes knows it's bad, they just can't stop. Read Keynes you uneducated fuck, maybe you'll become slightly less retarded. Even Friedman would think you're a deranged ancap danger to the society.

>>714906194
>because it gave undertermined
No, it did not, it gave a duration of access that ends when it no longer is worth developing.

>that's not relevant to any of the above

That is actually not true, it is explicitly relevant. Typically these games come with Mtx that help fund and subsidize new chunks of games development cycles and allow them to bring and introduce new content.

>>714906426
I'm not insanely rich yet, just comfortable at half a mil in stocks/cash, and 300k in a house in the Midwest US. I will be insanely wealthy in about 3 years.

>>714873786
>t.

>theres 450 million euros
>we're only about to get 1/450 of them to sign

Why are they so apathetic

>>714906761
Oh so you're just a larping whore. Nobody who has money answers like that, poorboy.

>>714906668
Because you agreed to pay for a service, end of story. You can cry tears, you can be upset, you can complain to the company, hell, get everyone to band together and complain about the company. In fact, never buy one of their games again until the CEO comes out and gives everyone a blowjob. But do NOT let the law get further involved, you will not like the outcome.

If you like your game continuing to get developed though, and you like playing new games with new ideas, then you need to also realize that the margins on these games are not nearly as much as you might think they are. I know it's very easy to see games make a couple hundred mil, the reality is that those games float on a paper thin margin that pays for all the workers in a company to be able to continue to try to make games. That's what you're paying for. It's not you give $60 so that way a company can try to rape you, it's you giving $60, with $45 of those dollars going to hard cost and development and $15 of those dollars being shared amongst shareholders, who are typically institutional investors that move that money to other companies and ventures to make your life better.

>>714906745
>Keynesian
No thank you, his practices have been in use for 100 years and have led us to $36 Trillion in debt through social security, welfare, and medicaid. Go read some Ayn Rand dumb ass nigga.

>>714907086
kk pussy nigga

>>714906393
Jeez anon, you mean drug use is down in the generation born in a time where there's heavy regulations for those unlike previous ones where it was a free for all on advertising and selling those even for kids
Golly that obviously must mean regulations are unnecessary! Quick let's tell all those corporations they can do whatever, surely that'll only do good for people

>>714907334
Yes, it will do good for people. Drugs will be way cheaper and safer (no more fent laced xanax). You know there's also a lot of people that do coke on Saturday and aren't complete bums, right? Stop worshiping the poor, let alone subsidizing them, and start searching for excellence.

>>714875274
Quiet shill

>>714907134
>If you like your game continuing to get developed though, and you like playing new games with new ideas, then you need to also realize that the margins on these games are not nearly as much as you might think they are
no nigger, that's not how it works, DLCs already exist for this exact purpouse, you put as many fake mathematics and whataboutism all you want but it doesn't change that the gaming industry is getting more and more predatory and there's a point where people will tell you to fuck off

if paying isn't owning then pirating isn't stealing you nigger

It's really funny (Read: sad) how Americans have been brainwashed into thinking corporations are better than the government, when corpos are just smaller, inherently authoritarian governments that would put lead in your water if it gave them even the slightest profit margin.

>>714907529
And me filing bankruptcy and not developing live service games, putting out lower quality games, in faster cycles, to an ever increasing demand for increases in visual and aesthetic combinations isn't helping consumers out. Spoiled brat.

>>714881047
>Either remove the always online requirement once you're done supporting the game
Or never have it in the first place

>>714907667
Just put the fries in the bag

>>714907626
It's actually the opposite, the corporations are getting raped constantly, and neither party in the US supports free markets anymore.

>>714907134
>Because you agreed to pay for a service, end of story. You can cry tears, you can be upset,
you have no concept of anything but you run your mouth. it's not a service
the only maintenance that is happening are electricity costs once the software is written. get a grip you fucking globohomo
i don't give a fuck about your EOMM SBMM to make retards feel good about themselves and i also don't care someone will make money off your "IP" if they pay for the server but are not selling the fucking game you literal fucking mongrel retard
ayn rand btw. the state

>>714907667
if all you make is just live service slop then you deserve to get broke, sorry people is not accepting to be viewed as cattle

>>714879550
Kids should be able to buy hidrofluoric acid and nitroglicerine at the local pharmacy. That's right. Regulation bad.

>>714907776
>the corporations are getting raped constantly,
>saaar leave the multi billion company to be alone saaaar

>>714903842
what's his name?

is HE going to survive SKG?

>>714907764
If I'm ever down so bad I have to take your job, I'd just kill myself.

>>714907808
>It's not a service

Okay, then you get what you pay for, no more Steam refunds, I won't try to build games out overtime to bring new experiences, instead it'll just be $60 every time. Oh wait, actually, adjusted for inflation and now inhibiting my live service expedience, it will now be $110 for a game, and everytime I put out a DLC it'll be $70. Stop thinking it's about the corporations, and start thinking about the economic impacts of what you're suggesting. There's a reason games are successful today and offer more than they ever have, and live service is that reason.

>>714907813
Okay and if all you buy is single player games, then don't complain what others choose to do with their money.

>>714907963
The United Healthcare CEO got shot with only a networth of $43,000,000 in the most heavily regulated industry in the whole of US simply for turning down claims on middle class and upper middle class individuals, in a company that has a 6% margin, where at least 4.5BN are reinvested into medicine and technology to make your life better. Stop sucking government cock and realize there are more intricate things about the life in front of you than you can begin to even fathom.

>>714908023
>No nono, you have to suck poor peoples cocks, you need to subsidize low IQ people to work in gas stations and throw garbage in bins for $35 an hour. You need to give your life up to other people, you're not in control of it.
One reddit gold for you pal.

>>714908393
Nigga you speak like a guy from Bioshock when you find his audio diary on his corpse after having his face caved in by drug addicts.

>>714898618
>>714898276
is the petition that good that the only arguments against it are botted copypasta?

>>714908393
People already refuted every single point and all you do is just run your mouths, shut up tranny

>>714906761
>it gave a duration of access that ends when it no longer is worth developing
Which is undetermined at the time of purchase, rendering your EULA void per EU legislation.
If you don't want to comply to EU's market law than you can stop selling your products in the EU's market.

>>714906107
>There are millions of different games getting developed, some triple A, some indie, some solo dev, some small teams, some big teams, some with multiple studios, some animation studios. If anything, the market has never been more interconnected to bring games to the market and try new things out. Roblox is a prime example of this, same as Fortnite, where now it's getting cheaper to make games, it's getting more accessible to make games, and the quality is only improving, despite what /v/ might say.

Yes, there indeed many players in the market. But the majority of earnings fall into the hands of the key big players. And they have shown that they have an appetite for acquiring and absorbing new IPs into their portfolios. The latest layoffs at Xbox may signal a shift or correction, but the real casualty here is the numerous studios that have been acked by the layoffs and the talent pools that are scattered. Any studio that wants to make real money is hindered by these barriers to entry and subsequent takeovers/captures by bigger publishers.

>>714908393
Chef, this is the shittiest pasta I have ever seen. It's so bad you owe me reparations for the digestive damage caused by it.

>>714908552
Niggas can't handle a thread GOAT, I understand.

>>714908609
I have had literally 0 refutation of any of my points.

>>714908673
Great to see you again man, thank you for pointing out that the EU is anti-consumer once again. It helps my cause greatly.

>>714908739
Yes, and those studios fail. It happens, look at all the other studios that have come and gone. It simply is the way of the wind, some thrive, some die, new ones come, old ones go. No one is hindered by the barriers to do anything though, these are difficult decisions that people have to make in order to make companies stand the test of time. It's not easy to make it any market, and nor should it be. Companies are competing for consumers, we are cutting each others heads off, we're trying to smell where the blood is. And because of those things, games are ultimately better for it.

>>714908903
It makes sense a pleb has no taste when all you eat is mud cookies from Haiti.

>>714909045
Must be sad to be living like a dumb shill

>>714908393
Bro invested $100 into the stock market and now thinks he has to suck corpo cock 24/7. Nigga, instead of posting this autistic fuck essays you could be making money or spending time with friends.

>>714908393
The low IQs throwing garbage in bins are factually more valuable than any of your shitty examples as to why company's EULA should supersede an EU customer's right.

>>714909045
Post specs, poorfag third worlder.

>>714908393
>no more Steam refunds
fucking degen. this isn't even remotely connected unless you'd be arguing for regulations, because of Australia & Steam which you aren't anyway
>instead it'll just be $60 every time. Oh wait, actually, adjusted for inflation and now inhibiting my live service expedience, it will now be $110
i'm actually for games costing $200-$1000 or whatever makes the dev money so he doesn't have to sell his company to the next highest bidder when the dev cycle is over
get a grip
FIFA (year) is what is ruining gaming, you retard

>>714909161
>Making Money
I make $20K a month, think I'm good lil bro.

>>714909165
Factually, I'm correct, but that's because I actually study economics. However though, you don't have the courage to hate the poor. This is why Europe is going nowhere. It'll be a blessed day when GDP growth goes from moderate to negative in that god forsaken continent.

>>714909147
Must be sad to be poor and retarded, I used to be like you. There's still time to change anon, I believe in you.

>>714909045
>protecting a customer against snake-oil merchants is anti-customer
Sure dude.
>Yes, and those studios fail. It happens, look at all the other studios that have come and gone. It simply is the way of the wind, some thrive, some die, new ones come, old ones go. No one is hindered by the barriers to do anything though, these are difficult decisions that people have to make in order to make companies stand the test of time. It's not easy to make it any market, and nor should it be. Companies are competing for consumers, we are cutting each others heads off, we're trying to smell where the blood is. And because of those things, games are ultimately better for it.
Name one studio that failed because their game's monetisation didn't comply to a market's regulation and not because of gross mismanagement by Publishers after acquiring them to take ownership of an IP/Brand.

>>714909556
Oh no... not my GDP.

>>714909556
>Factually, I'm correct
LMAO
nah fuck you nigger

>>714909468
>This isn't remotely connected

On the contrary pal, it's extremely connected. So not only do I only get to sell the game one time, I don't have incentives to continue developing it really, other than patching it to get more sales. I don't have incentives to develop anything other than DLC, not gonna waste my time on MTX since the game has to be offline so that shit will get modded in anyway, there's no other ways for me to make money in the game. So if you get to refund and not commit to your purchase, then why do I have to develop for predatory consumers? See how this starts to backfire?

>>714909728
This, but unironically.

>>714909689
>Name one studio that failed and not IP Brand

We're arguing over regulation, not how companies mismanage their properties or development of them. The better question will be, if this passes, how many games are we gonna miss out on? What are the features that might not be implemented? What are the new develop times gonna be? What are the new prices gonna be? Are smaller indie devs gonna have a chance to ever generate wealth with good games? Just to be clear, Nintendo and Microsoft can play the waiting game on choking companies out, it's the smaller more promising indie devs and studios that can't afford to swim these waters. But I suppose in an odd twist, we only wanna support mega corporations, not smaller ones.

>>714909556
And yet US companies, while bitching loudly, can't help but comply to every single regulation the EU shits out that goes against their interests in favour of EU customers.

>>714910048
Big companies push dmall companies out of existence, that's why there's no competition in the states.

>>714910045
I am, but you don't have any actual rebuttals. Very sad, but I'm glad that you've admitted defeat. If you gather together the correct educational resources, you might be able to conjure up success of your own.

>>714910067
US Companies that have money*** It's still worth it to sell and collect the razor thin margins. You'll just never know what you missed out on as a result of the EU raping it's consumers with EULA.

>>714910048
>other than patching it to get more sales. I don't have incentives to develop anything other than DLC
So you mean devs are wasting less time working?? holy shit it's a win-win then

>>714899768
?? It seems like a nice service. I won't have to run to the store and get more ink.
That isn't to say I don't distrust/hate printers, I know they're charging way too much for the cartridge. But the principle doesn't seem too bad for boomers/salarymen too busy to go to the store and get more ink.

>>714873008
the same reason Rabbi's suck on baby penis during circumcision decades after decades

>>714910168
Name one (1) thing I've missed out on

Why do you people are even replying to this disgusting shill?

>>714910203
You should investigate pegging, I think you'll like it.

>>714910161

Yes, market competitors get killed by other competitors, thus bringing you cheaper goods, this does happen. Astute observation lad.

>>714910176
Yes, with a caveat, less devs are wasting less time, because I will be firing a shit ton of devs to keep my margins steady. Which means less games.

>>714910246
I couldn't tell you, it's immeasurable. How many live saving drugs could have been out but got cucked by the FDA? Who knows. How many drugs didn't get made because it cost $1bn to produce them? Who knows.

>>714910048
>On the contrary pal, it's extremely connected. So not only do I only get to sell the game one time, I don't have incentives to continue developing it really, other than patching it to get more sales. I don't have incentives to develop anything other than DLC, not gonna waste my time on MTX since the game has to be offline so that shit will get modded in anyway, there's no other ways for me to make money in the game.
imagine exposing yourself that much.
YOU ARE THE REASON THE INDUSTRY IS IN THE SHITTER YOU FUCKING RETARD. FUCK YOUR FUCKING EARLY ACCESS SHIT. NOBODY NEEDS IT. jk idc because you've exposed yourself. low IQ

quotes ayn rand but doesn't understand the basics of supply/demand. plebbit retardation at full display. kindly fuck off.
you listen to laws? well then you're going to have new ones to adhere to

>>714910696
Amazon forbids vendors from selling cheaper elsewhere. How does that make it cheaper?

>>714910696
>the things we could of had
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radithor

>>714910048
>The better question will be, if this passes, how many games are we gonna miss out on?What are the features that might not be implemented?What are the new develop times gonna be?
Customers don't care.
>What are the new prices gonna be?
That's for devs and publishers to decide and EU customers to decide if they purchase or not;
>Are smaller indie devs gonna have a chance to ever generate wealth with good games?
They already do while complying to what SKG wants.
Terraria? Offline play.
Valheim? Offline and Locally hosted servers.
Disco Elysium? Offline.
Minecraft? Offline and Locally hosted servers.
Undertale? Offline.
Stardew Valley? Offline and Locally hosted servers.
Among Us? Locally hosted servers.
No Man's Sky (though indie status at release was debatle with sony investments)? Offline and P2P.
Should we go on?
>Just to be clear, Nintendo and Microsoft can play the waiting game on choking companies out, it's the smaller more promising indie devs and studios that can't afford to swim these waters. But I suppose in an odd twist, we only wanna support mega corporations, not smaller ones.
Not an argument, see above. The biggest danger for indie devs and small studio is publishers seeking to invest in them or buy them.

>>714910696
>Which means less games.
good
i only always believe in quality over quantity. ayn rand btw

>>714910807
I get that your angry that I'm right, but if you want to try to make your argument, you shouldn't just post a screenshot, and then screech about how Ayn Rand supports government intervention in free markets and beyond their provisions such as the terms that constitute fraud between a user and a company. I'll let you try again with a coherently typed post, thank you.

>>714910906
That's fair, those vendors are using amazon's platform to sell and advertise their goods, why should Amazon have to also give you a reach around and dodge their platform?

>>714911120
The games will also be lower quality btw

>>714880174
>Blacks being enslaved was the blacks fault.
We finally agree

>>714911176
What? You're not using their platform to sell or advertise elsewhere. What's the problem?

>>714911176
>The games will also be lower quality btw
Lol no

>>714911176
>I get that your angry that I'm right, but if you want to try to make your argument
i accept your concession and your future adherence to the new vidya landscape

>the ever-speculating american mind cannot comprehend basic & cemented customer right
They still comply to past, present and future regulation though lmao.

>>714911057
>Customers don't care
That's great, my investors care.

>That's for devs and publishers to decide
Yes, thank you for pointing that out. I wonder how this affects quality.

>Already complying with what SKG wants
That's great, I'm glad that there's a bunch of games that SKG petitioners can go and play... why are they complaining again?

>Not an argument
Actually, is an argument. Do you believe there are not consequences as a result of putting an end to live service? We don't know the variables, but it will touch in ways you do not realize.

>>714911249
Wrong, you're taking up server space, you are selling their product on their website, you are getting reviews for your products, and image hosting, quick buying, a whole host of things. And if you ship your goods to a fulfillment center, you can provide one day shipping or even same day. Lot of benefits, don't see what the problem is. Don't sell on Amazon if you don't want all of those, simple.

>>714911252
>lol no
It's okay, we don't know what it looks like, but they will be. Or they'll take longer to make. There's always a tradeoff.

>>714911565
>Doesn't provide an argument
That's okay, if you read Ayn Rand she would not support the government interfering in private contracts and agreements between users and free markets unless the contract has been violated that isn't instituted in place by a government (which is not a free market function outside of fraud). So I am correct, and you are wrong. Thank you.

>>714911853
And what's the problem if I also sell them cheaper elsewhere with my own shipping aswell? Please explain.

>>714911984
The problem is that you agreed to sell on Amazon and that's their rules. That said, I'm not completely familiar with Amazon's rules, but if that's what you agreed to, then not sure what you want me to comment on.

posting in dying bread just to point out that this faggot wrote 50 posts and thinks "EULA" means something like "European Union Legislative Action". fucking retarded larper. thank you for your attention to this matter.

>>714911853
You didn't refute any of those points.
Almost all game studios and smaller already offer in some ways what SKG wants.
Letting AAA companies like Ubisoft, Blizzard and other go scot-free on experiment grey legal areas on anti-customer practices is what led to this petition because they've grown accustomed to retards not knowing they have basic rights.

>>714912214
So corporate regulation is good?

>>714910613
I did not say I would use it, I would go buy my own cartridges in bulk. But if you're a boomer whose too lazy to do it, this seems fine. Is there some hidden fee/does the ink not work after a month? I have no idea this is the first time I'm hearing this topic.

>>714912396
I refuted all of your points, you don't like my refutations. In fact, you're in support of my argument. There are single player games, you as a consumer can choose to purchase today, and you never have to touch a service game ever.

You say they're going an running experiments in legal gray areas, but a legal gray area should not be a purchase that you agree to make against a developer and have full understanding of exactly what you're doing, in fact I would say that's the opposite, the area is clearly defined. You are purchasing a service, not a game or ownership, so it is not a gray area. Also, you do realize that there's a world that exist where if live service is successful, that success can extend down into the indies and allow them a chance at making great games? Of course you don't think of that, you just think of it through the lens the big bad companies, and not what's actually possible and how companies and industries actually work together.

>>714912401
For what, you listing on Amazon and then undercutting on your own website? You need a regulation for that? To just not sell on Amazon? Jesus christ, do you need a regulation to put a government mandated obese male in your bathroom to wipe your ass too?

>>714894689
>>Purchase an annual pool pass to my community pool. The number of people starts to dwindle over the years. Eventually, I and another dude are the only owners of the annual pool pass: The price of the pass is not enough to cover the fees of a lifesaver, and due to law regulations, I can't let you in and operate in the pool without a lifesaver or be liable, so I have to deny you access
Nigger it's a service, what kind of dogshit example is this?
>>714895590
>The annua pass didn't get voided. You have access to the pool. You can go to the pool. You just can't use it without a lifesaver. And your annual pass is not enough to cover the lifesaver fee.
What connection does a lifesaver have? Is it supposed to represent internet? What point did you refute of mine, if anything you proved that killing games is stupid because they have dumb lifelines like lifesavers.

>>714912754
All of what you're saying is nonsense if you support copyright regulations

>>714912890
I'm not sure how copyright regulation has to do with clearly defined legal areas regarding customers and purchasing goods or services.

>>714912835
So corporate regulation (as in regulation made and enforced by corporations) is good?

>>714912981
Games aren't a service

>>714912990
It's a private business with a voluntary contract in place, not a regulation. You're not forced to or coerced to engage with their marketplace in order to sell goods. Try again.

>>714913093
As it would turn out, some games are in fact services.

>>714913136
I know you understand the concept of market capture, it's a bit silly to pretend you don't just because it doesn't suit your narrative.

>>714913217
Not for long :^)

>>714913272
I'm not being silly, they're a private company that you enter a contract with. You don't have to enter the contract with them. It's their rules. They want competitive pricing in order to sell on their platform, simple as.

>>714913343
At least not in Europe. I wouldn't be surprised if devs stopped selling some games in Europe, but is what it is. It's a toddler nation that's getting took over by Islam, so not like there will be many games to play in the future anyway.

>>714913370
Again, why are you pretending you don't understand market capture? That's silly.

>>714913460
I think you don't understand how contracts work and you should investigate that portion first. Otherwise you're just saying a term and acting as if it applies outside of the legal framework of the contract.

>>714913446
Haha
>gets owned
>b-b-but Islaaaaam

>>714912754
>AAA company selling (not leasing) a licensed copy of a game for an undefined and vague period of time is and revoking access to said product with no valid excuse, while offline structures were built in the game is not a grey area
>AAA company selling a licensed copy of game and changing the EULA after the purchase isn't anti-customer practice
>AAA company thinking an EULA is sufficient to bend customer protection laws like Blizzard's right to nuke a customer's account for any reason isn't anti-customer practice
>Ubisoft thinking they can force a customer to destroy the licensed copy of a game their customers purchased for an undefined period is legally compliant with basic customer protection laws
I want to see them test these notions in an EU court right now.

>>714913574
>Gets owned
>By adovcating for the consumer
Ahhggg.... my soul....

>>714913546
Now you're being ridiculous, you're even refusing to acknowledge the concept. C'mon man, I know you're not this stupid. Surely your ideology isn't so fragile that it can't stand up to scrutiny?

>>714913217
Where is it stapled that games are legally a service in the EU?

>>714913446
Like all foreign companies that pulled their goods out of the EU because of regulations?

>>714913736
My ideology isn't being scrutinized though. I've asked you to explain how a contract with a private company that you signed to abide by has to do with market capture. You're refusing to elaborate. Not sure what you want me to do. If you are assuming that you should be allowed to get market capture on Amazon and move it to your own private website because Amazon has access to a greater consumer base and should benefit you privately more than Amazon, then you are morally incorrect on the basis of the contract you agreed to. Not sure if that's the angle you want, but you won't communicate and you're being nonsensical. So please try again.

>>714913870
It's stapled next to your billion Euro payment for infinite Syrian Refuges, make sure you check your TV license for more details.

>>714914038
Yes, which hurt the consumers and do exist, but since it's not Coca Cola, Europeans don't care because they only love mega corporations that can afford to do these things in Europe.