The greater will is a product of eternity, and its progenitor. Everything is guided by the greater will, everything is part of the greater will, but because of this, no part is capable of comprehending the greater will.

The celestial bodies are powerful. They're concentrated essence, like glintstone. All material has essence and qualia. Glintstone is a product of, and a bestower of, intelligence. Cold rationality. And this essence has the capacity to animate, and even when powerful enough, can manifest in divinity. Of course, divinity requires faith, and glintstone's rational seeking intelligence is the opposite of faith. Thus, the god form of glinstone are celestial bodies. They are not active participants, they are objects of study, and they bestow knowledge. Glintstone sorcerers don't pray to the stars, they study them, taking the knowledge of their own, rather than calling forth the powers of a god.

The two fingers believed they could interpret the greater will. But the greater will can not be interpreted by its constituents.

Ymir didn't abandon it because the moon wasn't powerful. He abandoned it in search of something greater. He sought the ultimate power of the greater will through the eternity of the abyss of the night sky. Rather than studying the moon, which was simply a small part of the sky, he believed he could understand the greater will through the study of the sky in its entirety.

The joke is that none of it is relevant.

>>715013970 (OP)

Rennala isn’t a good character. She’s basically a feminist’s wet dream. A woman barges into a men’s magic science club and cancels the science and says staring at the moon is so much better and “also I’m way smarter than all of you”, and no male has ever seen the moon / ever reached 70 intelligence.

Elden Ring is an insufferable feminist game.

>>715014040
Still funny

Sleep and Madness is fucking useless

>hey go check out these ruins, here's a map
>you went there and killed everything in your path? good
>now go check out these other ruins, here's another map
>you killed everything in your path again to get to that second ruin? great
>by the way did i mention the fingers are fucked? and their mother is insane and super fucked? she needs to be replaced. she should fucking die because everything wrong with the world is ultimately her fault.
>anyway here's a third map, do your thing
>you killed metyr, who I gave you directions straight to and had nothing good to say about? NOOOOOO WHY DID YOU DO THAT JOLAN KILL THIS ASSHOLE
what the FUCK was ymir's problem anyway?

okay but how would miyazaki explain this?

>>715015013
Can you please fuck off and die

>>715014886
His questline was the best part of the dlc until the very end. Why they decided to ruin his character like that, we’ll never know.

>>715013970 (OP)
thats nice but the main story of the dlc unfortunately sucks ass, they ruined miquella radahn and mogh in 1 release

>>715013970 (OP)
The Greater Will is just another Outer God and one that arrived first, before the others.
It isn't special beyond being the first in line to run Earth until eventually its control is displaced by another God.
Even after it left it has some latent power sitting around that powers its creations like the Elden Ring or the Fingers. But these are just remainders of its influence after the God itself left.

>>715016339
You're thinking of metyr.

>>715014886
He's deranged and retarded and wrong about just about everything.

>>715016407
Metyr isn't a full Outer God.
She's probably equivalent to a Demigod, if anything. It doesn't really matter. But otherwise she's just a powerful spawn of the Greater Will, that has magical powers.
The Greater Will is on the same level as the Rot God or the Frenzied Flame or the Twinbird God or whatever else. It isn't uniquely better than any of them, it is just the one who established a presence on Earth first.

>>715016542
You're thinking of metyr though.

>>715016585
I'm thinkin about thos beans.

>>715016585
I am not.
Metyr is nothing special.
The Greater Will is one God among many. It is not some uniquely original force.

>>715014465
>Sleep
Has niche uses against a small number of bosses, but the limited distribution of the status plus the weapons that actually get it being pretty trash means that it's mostly relegated to pot spam strats to deal with a few really annoying godskin encounters (really nice for duo and getting Godslayer GS early though).
>Madness
Yeah it's useless in PvE, at least the spells and one weapon are genuinely good outside of the status.

Both are retarded cancer in PvP.

>>715016339
>the greater will is just another outer god
its clear you didnt do the flame of frenzy quest and listen to hyeta after you go through the door, she says:

>Thank... thank you... I have touched them.
>The words of the Three Fingers.
>As your maiden, allow me to divine them.

>"All that there is came from the One Great.
>Then came fractures,
>and births,
>and souls.

>But the Greater Will made a mistake.
>Torment, despair, affliction...
>every sin, every curse.
>Every one, born of the mistake.

>And so, what was borrowed must be returned.
>Melt it all away, with the yellow chaos flame.
>Until all is One again."

its always amazing to me how many people on this site spout their schizo headcanon like its gospel and get butthurt when they didnt even bother to play the full video game

>>715016928
>the demon was telling me the truth
sasuga

I want to serve Ranni.

>>715016928
The One Great is the Crucible.
Which is a different thing from the Greater Will.
The Crucible's presence on Earth is older than the Greater Will's.
Also Hyetta is a lying whore that will tell you whatever manipulated information she can to encourage you to follow the Frenzied Flame.
Believing what she says as gospel truth is retarded.

>>715017009
has no reason to lie about the greater will being the central driving force behind division from the One, and nothing in the game indicates he is lying or even contradicts this
now whether such division was a "mistake" or the beginning of life, such is yours to call, but you can't argue the greater will is on the same as the rot/moon/etc.
again, its amazing what headcanon you develop then spout to everyone else as objective truth, when you clearly weren't even aware of this part of the video game and now have to backpedal to "well this contradicts me, clearly this character is lying"

>>715017148
>Also Hyetta is a lying whore that will tell you whatever manipulated information she can to encourage you to follow the Frenzied Flame.
why would she or the frenzy flame lie, this is said only after you embrace its grasp and force melina to abandon you, you're already in for the long haul
>ITS LYING ITS LYING ITS LYING
why? because this action in the video game disagrees with your theory for the cosmic order of the universe?

>>715017197
The Erdtree and the Golden Order are both the products of the Greater Will's influence, even if the God itself departed the planet.
The entire world is the product of it. Just like we see in areas where the Rot has taken over, that it changes the world into an alien planet that is more to the preference of the Rot. The Lands Between as they exist are in the image of the Greater Will's desires.
The Frenzied Flame wants you to destroy all of that because Outer Gods all hate one another. It wants to absorb all the souls of the world into itself and shitting on the Greater Will for being a fuck up is part of that.
The reason that the Greater Will is the focus, is because it arrived to Earth first. If the Rot God arrived first, then the Frenzied Flame would be coming up with a story about how everything was its fault, instead.

>>715017289
Because the player than renege on the deal whenever they want.
The Flame knows that there are ways to purge its influence from the world and the player does have access to one directly.
It is lying because it misleads the player all the way to the finale and the Frenzied Flame has no desire for you to know the truth about what it wants or does.
The Greater Will isn't that important. We know the source of life on Earth and its the Crucible and the Crucible and the Greater Will's products are separate things even in the modern day of the game. So neither created the other.

>>715017473
did you miss the part about "all there is came from the One Great" or do you not understand the concept of the existence occurring only when the divine One separates and divides
this is a larger concept than any of the outer gods or their "fickle" desires

>The current imperfection of the Golden Order, or instability of ideology, can be blamed upon the fickleness of the gods no better than men. That is the fly in the ointment.

>>715017473
>>715017696
your arguemnt requires about 20 leaps of faith, stated without evidence from the video game itself, complete schizophrenic headcanon, thank you for the discussion though

>>715017717
The Gods that Goldmask was talking about were Marika, Radagon, and the various shardbearers.
Goldmask doesn't demonstrate any particular knowledge of the Outer Gods at any point and using one for the other interchangeably is dishonest.
The Golden Order is a product of the Greater Will. But it is not special beyond being the set of rules that the Greater Will magically bound the planet in. Other Gods that control their own planets would have their own equivalents.

>>715014293
I’m pretty sure Azur and Lusat are more powerful and foundational than Rennala.

>>715013970 (OP)
and that's a good thing

>>715017910
let me state a few implict assumptions you're making to show you why the entirety of this post is headcanon

>The Gods that Goldmask was talking about were Marika, Radagon, and the various shardbearers.
they are constantly and only refered to as demigods, not gods, so this statement is just false
Goldmask doesn't demonstrate any particular knowledge of the Outer Gods at any point and using one for the other interchangeably is dishonest.
by my first argument, no it is not dishonest and we really dont know what goldmask does and doesnt know relating to the outer gods as we only hear from cohrn whose interpretation of goldmask at times is lacking and misunderstood
>The Golden Order is a product of the Greater Will.
true
>But it is not special beyond being the set of rules that the Greater Will magically bound the planet in.
he Golden Order is a product of the Greater Will.
giant assumption, first, you assume the lands between is a "planet", its never stated to be as such, all we know is that its clearly well, "between" things and "beyond the fog", whether its part of an afterlife of some other form of existence is never stated, all we know is its between and has islands we never explore to the north and a few other locations like the badlands and land of reeds which we never see
>>715017910
>Other Gods that control their own planets would have their own equivalents.
there is not one single item, character dialogue, aspect of the physical game world, or anything associated even remotely with elden ring's IP to suggest this is true, this is a fabrication you made up as your own theory and it has absolutely no support

>nerds typing paragraphs and paragraphs of head canon nerd shit

>Me: Doll wife cute, I pick her ending

>>715017856
Where are the leaps of faith?
We know where life came from - The Crucible. Many item descriptions show this.
We know that the Crucible and the Greater Will are different things, and can even be in opposition to one another. The Fingers pushed those associated with the Crucible to the side, like when they had Marika banish Godfrey (the leader of the Crucible Knights) or when they condoned her torture of the Omen. .
We know that there are multiple alien Gods that are trying to take over the planet. That they're literally just magical aliens.
And we see that as one takes over an area, it can transform that part of the world physically. Caelid and Romina.
We know that they're all competing to rule the Earth and probably many other planets around. We the player see the Dark Moon use Ranni to instate its influence, same with Malenia and the Rot God, and we can join with the Frenzied Flame ourselves to let it take over.

We have every reason to think that the Greater Will is just one among many that happened to get to Earth before the others and establish its dominion over the planet.
You're relying on a specific interpretation of one line from a mind-controlled woman that says lots of things that are either delusional or misleading or just lies who is trying to encourage you to empower the Frenzied Flame and let it take over the world from the Greater Will's left over essence.

>>715018348
based and true
my entire thought process was "i want to make a build with the moonlight sword, oh i need to get married to get it? great"
INTchads stay winning

Tranny coded game funded by Isreal to further destabilize the west.
>Women basically deciding everything that matters
>Only cool guy Radahn goes insane due to women PMS
>Ranni another woman killing half the world for stars/moon bullshit
>Oh Marika and Radaghon are the same person both boy and girl!

Got towards the end of the game, was so pissed I initiated a refund request even after 90 hours and gave valve pages of reasons why this was essentially propaganda and brainwashing. They gave me my money back no questions asked, based Gaben probably agrees. Read a little about the DLC apparently Radahn is being mind raped by Miquella who is also a girl/tranny, surprise surprise. Game should be rated AO and not sold anywhere.

Done with souls games, hope fromsoft goes bankrupt.

>>715018112
They aren't.

>>715013970 (OP)
nigga there is no coherent lore

they gave up trying to complete a story because like always they put the gameplay and level design first and had a deadline

move on

>>715018427
Exactly. Best weapon, best ending, best waifu.

>>715018678
look i dont like jews and trannies as much as the next anon, but you've let your personal politics infect your ability to understand this game's lore
nothing of what you posted is true

>Women basically deciding everything that matters
wrong, they're sitting in a destroyed world doing fuck all like rennala sitting completely mindbroken by an egg given to her by a man or malenia sieeping in a chair letting the tree rot while her brother is afk trying to become lord of a new order
>Only cool guy Radahn goes insane due to women PMS
he didnt let her win either and his story is tragic but clearly shows him as honorable
>Ranni another woman killing half the world for stars/moon bullshit
i dont think you really understood ranni's ending, but yes, shes a central figure in whats happening
>Oh Marika and Radaghon are the same person both boy and girl!
wait until you find out marika has made other versions of herself before, haven't you ever wondered why the serpents are so closely related to messmer, her son, or why melina has a gloam eye? this is fantasy, just because someone makes a copy/version of themselves in the same gender doesnt mean its the creators of said IP vowing for niggerfaggotism, in fact marika though powerful is clearly shown to be a manipulator and not interested in the betterment of anyone other than herself

sorry but you let mossad completely mindbreak you where you think japanese media gives two fucks about western politics or the fate of a desert nation

>>715018298
Marika and Radagon are consistently referred to as Gods, and using a generalization for all the demigods along with them is fitting in the context where Goldmask is equally pissed off at all the 'royal family' for destroying the world and wants to lock them down.
We even have examples of demigods being called 'Gods' as shorthand in the Malenia fight. Where her phase 2 is called the "Goddess of Rot", even if the finale calls her a Demigod.
>we don't know what goldmask knows
True, but we can't assume knowledge that isn't conveyed to us. Goldmask is extremely smart, but knowledge of Outer Gods being a real thing, is pretty limited.

We have every reason to think that the Lands Between are a planet, it could be a magical realm on the back of a turtle or whatever, but the story has a strong science fiction bent and that makes it more likely than not that it is a planetary body like Earth and we're exploring a subset of it.
The reason one would go from this to talking about Gods having their own planets elsewhere are the Astels, who are minor Outer Gods, that travel as comets around the cosmos and are literally just magical aliens from Outer Space that land on Earth periodically. And it would stand to reason that they do that on other planets. We also get that the Moon/Dark Moon are themselves representations of certain Alien Gods, and the Greater Will living in the void of space.

I have no great stake in arguing that every planet has an Outer God of its own, but the point is a hypothetical to demonstrate how if another God had arrived at Earth first, it would have established its own Order.
Does Venus have its own Golden Order or Scarlet Order? I don't have any argument for it and it isn't very important to me to argue. My point, however, is the hypothetical what-if, of a game set on Venus where, the Rot God is in charge and the Greater Will is an insurgent deity trying to take over. To show how the GW is one among peers, instead of being unique.

>>715018678
"based" gaben has a fortress on an island nation in the middle of the pacific, spending millions just to gain citizenship, landrights, and construction, and gives no fucks what happens to you or your country

>>715018112
Rennala theoretically is due to manifesting the moon as a sorcery but that's more laying claim to the entire Carian royalty as her own thing in the end, and Carian sorceries have their own (heretical but simultaneously they can study at the academy just fine) branch of study with its own stone head marking them as a sorcerer, and apparently some smithy shitting out Ice Crest Shields for them; Rennala herself is undoubtedly the smartest sorcerer in the whole academy but this doesn't mean she singlehandedly started her own field of study the way Azur and Lusat did, hell for all of that Thops figuring out that sorceries and incantations are the same thing for Thops' Barrier and, I dunno, killing himself at his desk or whatever happened to him, is legitimately worthy of a conspectus field of scholarly study all on its own

I don't think Rennala is foundational like the scholars but she was likely more powerful than them in her own prime and their own respective primes

>>715013970 (OP)
It seems almost undoubtedly the case that Messmer must be the child of Radagon, right? Not only does Messmer share a distinctly similar visual identity, the pale, almost greyish skin, red-flowing locks, noble stature, and general patrician features, but the two also possess several other similar traits such as:
>a ruthless devotion to the Golden Order,
>an aspect of themselves they despise (Radagon hated his red hair, Messmer hated his flame, both thematically associated with the fire-giants)
>OST's that share musical cues
>an association with Carian royalty
>warrior-crusader roles in Marika's history of conquests and genocides
And yet, Messmer is described in-game as having taken on an elder-brotherly role to Radahn, implying that Messmer, and Melina, were born prior to Radagon and Rennala's unifying of the Carian and Erdtree houses
This surely suggests that the initial union of Marika and Radagon historically preceded Radagon and Rennala, and that Radagon's murky emergence as a relatively unknown champion of the Golden host of Marika's armies speaks of Marika scheming to either diminish or erase his actual origins.
Really the largest distinction between Messmer and Radagon is the former's accursed status, bearing the abyssal serpent antithetical to the Erdtree and the Golden Order. The existence of the butterflies for Miquella, Malenia, Melina, and Messmer seems to suggest that children born of Radagon/Marika are divinely flawed somehow and thus susceptible to the machinations of outer gods.
Ultimately, Messmer never mentions his father, and neither does Melina. It's a conspicuous absence that leads me to believe there's a deeper mystery at the heart of it.

>>715020324
The timeline is super weird there.
Messmer knows what a Tarnished is, so he couldn't have been locked up until Godfrey was gone. But you'd think that he was born extremely early because his story is so tied to Marika's origins.
So either while married to Godfrey or just after banishing him, Marika created Radagon as a new champion for her armies and instantly made two children with him, before sending him off against Caria. Radagon then had 3 more children with Rennala, while Rellana and Radagon both befriended Messmer. Did they know he was Marika and Radagon's son at the time?

The most logical place for Messmer to locked away is after Marika called Radagon back.
Caria was beaten and then Marika turned focus towards her original enemies, the Hornsent, and finished them off for good while finally getting rid of the son she feared.
Melina's place in this is even more impossible to discern. Especially if you believe she's the Gloam Eyed Queen.

>>715020792
Elden Ring's a twelve-course-meal of a game with more than enough trimmings, but really, the game is crying out for a final DLC addressing the Gloam Eyed Queen and the Godskins. I don't think any of the other Souls games had such gapingly conspicuous and inscrutable questions in the backstory that went entirely unaddressed.
Unlike pretty much all of the other factions in game, the Godskins have no clearly identified region or citadel of their own. Not even a ruin, and yet they span almost the entirety of the game's lands. They were present in the game's earliest revealed conceptual materials and yet dwell almost universally in the shadows in the final release beyond the duo-encounter in Farum Azula, in near-proximity of the being that reaved their source of power.

>>715022040
The lore is just not part of a finished whole, anon. There is no story you are not privy to - they just throw shit in at random because it sounds cool. Elden Ring lore is entirely vibes.

>>715022040
>I don't think any of the other Souls games had such gapingly conspicuous and inscrutable questions in the backstory that went entirely unaddressed.

Dark Souls 2 and 3

>>715019747
>I dunno, killing himself at his desk or whatever happened to him
He probably just up and died, having completed his life's purpose. There are a couple soul/rune items that mention stuff like this happening.

Man, I'm kinda scared right now, dudes.
I fucked around with that Seamless Coop mod and might have bricked my 80 hour save. It was to the point that even launching without the mod, the game didn't want to detect my original saves.
I'm just doing a fresh install of the game after copying my save files elsewhere and hoping that everything works again if I put them back in the folder.

>>715018427
I married her as a Faith/Strength

opposites attract

>>715023002
Thats nuts!

>>715014465
Frenzied Burst is one of the strongest and most useful incantations in the game in PVE.

>>715023002
>bricked my 80 hour save
I've deleted over 10 150+ hour saves. You'll be okay lil man.

>>715024474
Frenzied Burst and Loretta's Great Bow are absolute champs.
So many spells and incantations have shit range for how tall the world can be, that those two are must haves to actually make use of any verticality.
The boulder toss ones are also pretty good.

>>715023257
>>715019137
>>715018348
>>715017102
>4 hands
imagine...

>>715024878
imagine the cuddling

>>715023257
>repeating radagon and rennala's dynamic but this time not being a forever cucked body-double of marika
kinoooooooo.................

elden ring is like 80% jewish mysticism

>>715024815
Boulders are amazing too as a pyromancy in DS3, I always beeline for that one when starting out as a pyromancer because of how fucking strong it is and how hard it smashes armor and shields, even against heavy-armor foes like Lothric Knights or the Cathedral of the Deep's crusader helm knights.

>>715025374
>tfw bloodflame former soldier of Mohg build w Ranni's moon magic


Bloodmoon time

>>715014465
you can put one of the godskin duo to sleep for an incredibly long time, trivializing the fight
both are good in pvp for the stun

>>715018756
They are. Rennala did nothing for sorcery.

>>715019747
>Rennala herself is undoubtedly the smartest sorcerer in the whole academy
No she’s not. She’s a childlike idiot.
>I don't think Rennala is foundational like the scholars but she was likely more powerful than them in her own prime and their own respective primes
Nah. They transcended their staves, while Rennala still had to use her’s.

>>715029254
i feel there's a critical "azur and lusat lost their friggin minds and their brains turned to crystal" element not at play here, in addition to a "rennala stopped getting red pubes in her teeth and lost her friggin mind" element

>>715029551
Azur and Lusat didn’t lose their minds. They opened their third eye.

>>715014040
I don't get it.

>>715029767
interesting way of saying they became insensate and fused to walls

>>715029884
Azur is levitating in meditation when you find him. Both have third eye motives.

>>715029957
Rennala, too, is levitating in meditation when you find her

>>715030152
She’s being levitated by her students’ singing, as you see moments later in her fight.

Azur is floating in meditation much like the zen crystallians. The amulets of verdigris on their foreheads is shaped like an eye, symbolizing their third eye status; Lusat’s head/brain itself is a giant eye. They were dressed in reverence. They’re revered corpse sages like the undying Sokushinbutsu from Sekiro. Living Buddhas.

>>715030456
>She’s being levitated by her students’ singing,
She's being shielded, she's also perfectly capable of levitation in Ranni's illusory fight against her at full power

>>715024941
Literally divine comfort.

>>715030610
When the students stop singing she falls to the floor, anon. She only levitates for a few moments each in her fight anon; more like a glide.

>>715030809
guys only want one thing and it's disgusting

>>715032049
She spends like half the game asleep.

>>715032151
AND I WILL SLEEP WITH HER

>>715032226
why isn't fia's ending you with her?
is it truly the most cucked ending

>>715032049
Literally all she'd need to do is gently ruffle my hair and I'd be hers.

>>715013970 (OP)
The Greater Will is just the collective of Stars.
The Frenzy is corrupted grace that comes from Three Fingers instead of Two Fingers
>>715016339
No, only the Twinbird, Formless Mother, Rot, the Great Serpent and the Primordial Outer God are Outer Gods, and those are Arcane elements

>>715022040
The Gloam Eyed Queen and the Godskins are already in Volcano Manor.
There's no gap or piece of lore not addressed

>>715033560
Where the fuck was the gloam eyed queen then?

>>715033604
The Gloam Eyed Queen is Eiglay, which is Miyazaki's concept for Egle, an IRL mythological shapeshifting serpent queen.

The snake skin empty and shed found in the Bonny Village is Eiglay's. Serpents shed their skin after heavy damage to heal. The Gloam Eyed Queen was brought by the Godskins, the children she birthed and shaped from supple skin woth the Serpent Amnion, in Volcano Manor. The God Devouring Serpent will use the amnion in her birthing process with Rykard

Eiglay was a serpent Goddess who possessed the Rune of the Unborn, which the Shaman Village used to birth people from the larval tears forming across spirit graves.

>>715034184
The snake skin in Bonny Village was almost certainly Messmer.
Eiglay is not that important. And contextually it is extremely fitting for it to be a Messmer hint.

>>715034501
No, it's not Messmer's. It's Eiglay's. It looks nothinng like Messmer's Base Serpent but it looks like Eiglay's empty skin
>Eiglay is not that important
Yes she is. In fact there's a very clear reason Man-Serpents, who shape-shift are kin to Godskins, that grow to have Crucible aspects, and the process with which they are born fits Eiglay's amnion.
You disregardi g this is why you'll never understand Elden Ring.

>>715034862
FromSoft isn't going to make that many snake assets and the setting is a Hornsent village where they butchered the shamans in large numbers.
The exact type of stuff that would have driven Messmer to keep up his genocide.
Eiglay on the other hand, only has a link through a few levels of separation revolving around its potential relations to the Crucible (maybe) and the link between the Hornsent and the Crucible. When we really don't see much link between the Hornsent and snakes anywhere.
The skin being Messmer on the other hand is very fitting because he was literally there and he's literally a snake inside.

>>715035171
They are completely different assets made specifically identical in rwo different poses.
It's also not an Hornsent village, it's a Shaman village, that Marika betrayed as she was allied with the Hornsent

My wife.

>>715035358
It is a Shaman Village that the Hornsent were butchering. That is why we get Hornsent butchery tools as items.
The model reuse is just for ease of development. Leda's Needle Armor was based on the Carian Knight set, there isn't a deeper meaning to that, it just saved on asset creation. Eiglay's model was used as a base because they had it. But the context makes it far more sensible that Messmer is the source.
We don't see Eiglay referenced anywhere in the DLC. So this random skin in a village where Shaman were butchered alive being his, doesn't feel like an Occam's Razor type deduction.

Marika was reaching into snake skin in the dlc cinematic trailer btw

>>715014465
I used that sniping madness spell for the dumb birds in the dragon floaty place. But yeah after I got malikeths blade for str/fth it was over for everything once I dual wielded. Yes I summoned tiche, I love tall women and yes I beat the game

>>715041043
for my sidekick it was my nigga Yosh