How do you balance brawler characters in RPGs ? If they're using their fists, that means they don't need to bother finding good weapons, invalidating the whole loot goblin aspect. Seems like we're left with a few choices:
1) make them weaker than everyone else offense wise and let them have other advantages
2) make them compete with everyone else, making them a plain better option because they don't have to rely on weapon loot
3) come up with a weapon like knuckle dusters or arm wraps, making them not that different from every other melee class

>dude what if Berserk
>dude what if Silent Hill
>dude what if I traced Jotaro
this dev is such a fucking hack holy shit

>>715701658
>Dude what if I stayed on topic

by making him the "tank" character with low damage output but high base stats.

>>715701829
How to balance it ? It's simple you don't. If the player wants to punch people in the face and have it be a viable strat then let them. Ideally though you need your game systems to accommodate for original ways to tackle fights which is usually not possible in 4 niggas in a row genre as they have a rigid structure.

>>715701482 (OP)
Give them a mechanic that scales their damage depending on successive attacks and diminishes that damage each turn they don't attack. Give them other mechanics that promote aggressive risk reward play.

>>715701658
There is literally nothing wrong with this since there is no contemporary Berserk game or games with universes close to Beserk, death rape and gore included. In fact both Funger are classed on Steam as Adult-only.
Unironically the Kenshi dev should follow that route for the sequel, when your game features slavery rape cannibalism etc. it makes carving a little safe haven that much more satisfying.

>>715701482 (OP)
You don't? RPGs don't need to be balanced. If you absolutely have to it's #3 you can easily put in gloves/magical tattoos/techniques as a weapon substitue since it's just a weapon they don't need. 1 and 2 are just basic destinctions every class can have.

>>715701658
That's not tracing you spastic

>>715702832
Gloves and shit kills my immersion because one of the reasons the monk/brawler archetype is appealing to me is that the character in universe is so strong fists are enough. As soon as you need gear to compete it kills my power fantasy.

>no need for loot
You will need good armor if you intend to fight in the front lines while being a glass cannon

>pulls out a gat
What the FUCK was his problem?

>>715701482 (OP)
Is that Todd Howard?

>>715701658
Yeah the influences and homages are so blatant it can feel like borderline plagiarism at times, but the presentation of it all is unique enough and there are so many of the influences mashed together that I think it ends up working pretty well in the end

>>715701482 (OP)
all they really need to do balance wise is at least be viable, the rest of the focus should be on making them have unique enough mechanics to exist as an alternate playstyle so they don't just end up being the same as everyone else except they use slightly different equipment or none at all

>>715703225
Than use techniques, instead paying for a weapon he has to pay a teacher/trainer for the knuckles of steel technique where he has to hit a log for 20000 times so his bones harden, typical eastern (movie genre) shit and such.

>>715704063
Needed someone to teach me shit also kills my power fantasy.

>>715704275
Than balancing at all would also kill your power fantasy, so don't do it or make weapons in general an accessory that only provides skills and feats instead of stats. Than fists can have their own.

>>715701482 (OP)
My homebrew version of DnD's Monk, and what I used as inspiration when designing my Drunken Master rework for Baldur's Gate 3 goes a little something like this:
>depends on more attributes than the average character
>class-tailored loot allows them to extract more value out of secondary and tertiary attributes while reinforcing restrictions (no armour, no weapons, etc.)
So, while they don't need to bother finding better weapons all the time, they do need to find items that can maximize their less efficient stat-spread.
You also don't always need to make them an offensive powerhouse, they can instead provide utility or crowd control, but this is rarely considered (it's what my Drunken Master rework does).

>>715704453
Dnd 4 actually nailed the monk by giving him more utility especially in the movement / forced movement department. Which made him pretty valueable to a melee oriented party because he could just throw enemies between two allies and give those additional boni. Sadly none of these mechanics exist in 5 which is why I still don't understand why people consider gutted 3.5 (5) better than mmo ability spam (4)

>>715701482 (OP)
It usually depends on what the other roles in the party are. My favorite approach to fist fighters in RPGs is how FF and DQ handle martial artists. Make a full offense, no utility unit, who can hit fast and hard, and has inexpensive gear.

>>715701482 (OP)
Kenshi isnt a conventional RPG but you can see how some of its stuff can translate to something more traditional. Its unarmed is good because you can do fast combos that have little recovery time(the animations are faster and snappier than other weapons, so you can do another action much sooner) from attacks so you can dodge and block more, the downside is that you cant block melee weapons and have to rely on dodges only, and unless youre super high skill with it it only does blunt damage, which wont destroy limbs. You can get stuck in a dodge loop where you have few opportunities to attack if youre fighting multiple weapon users because you cant just block and retaliate, dodging is always slower to revcover from that blocking. As your skill increases you also get new moves.

TLDR; high action economy, change the playstyle rather than trying to make it "balanced" youre no longer relying on things like blocking weapon attacks and have to use another method of defence, and instead of finding new weapons you can learn new moves unique to unarmed.

>>715704780
Yup, I tried to reintroduce the spirit of those benefits through status application and manipulation. I explicitly removed the ability to hit the same target three times in a turn to reduce the nova potential and instead provide control, crowd control, dodge-tanking and indirect party-benefits through debuffs. Otherwise, you may as well play a fighter if all you want to do is hit things.
Different classes/archetypes should be more than reskins. Even if the flavor is boxer instead of martial arts, like in F&H2, then the class should still do fundamentally different things to swordguy.
Oblivion, of all things, does this semi well for its genre. It's tied to a low RNG chance, but you can knock enemies back, disarm them, paralyze them, etc.

>>715701658
>one guy makes a thing based on inspiration from things he liked
>"this thing is not original, what a hack"
If anything Im impressed by stuff like this and Dont Look Outside, do what you can with what youve got, instead of trying to be wholly original try and actually get the thing finished.

I fucking hate the save/day progression of F&H2

>>715701482 (OP)
That's the appeal. With a Monk you just need to stock up 3 characters instead of 4, saving money. They might be weaker than a Warrior but you save so much gold.

>>715701482 (OP)
Another thing, to add to what I've already posted ITT.
The archetype would fundamentally work better in a setting/ruleset without unique loot, where weapons are treated more like an action game, or are even a consumable resource instead of these distinct, concrete, consistent unique items they are in most RPGs.
Players wouldn't feel like they're missing out.
And you'd finally have a satisfying use for something like stealing an enemy's weapon, which usually you'd never do in a game where you can equip Dildo of Dragonslaying +69.
Think something like Mount & Blade where weapons are more generic, for lack of a better word.

>>715703460
STILL THE BEST

1939

>>715705189
Look Outside is loosely inspired by Lovecraft but it doesn't lift entire plotlines so much that the entire fanbase calls a character Griffith. Look Outside also has its own tone with some humor and dark humor spinkled in instead of being always "save me niggerman" like Lovercraft's novels.

>>715705189
>actually get the thing finished
This is the single most important aspect, fuck everything else.
>>715705206
It's one of its best qualities.
>>715705212
This is sadly irrelevant in basically every vidya RPG ever. None of them have punishing enough economies to where it feels rewarding to spec someone as an unarmed, unarmored combatant. Great concept for the tabletop though.

>>715701482 (OP)
i would simply not make an rpg

>>715701482 (OP)
Monk in BG3 is quite literally one of the most broken classes

>>715703460
More games should include enemies that pull out a gun when shit starts going south. In fact HUGE missed opportunity not having an humanoid boss in Bloodborne whose entire phase 2 is just him whipping out a gun.

>>715702538
>little safe haven
https://youtu.be/m9lq97UJdn0?si=W6uzgzOY8h4ciPBz

>>715705698
Drinking 0% beer with my WIFE Marina!!!

>>715701482 (OP)
Easy
You don't

>>715701482 (OP)
Fuck balance.
At best you have weapons give better scaling/specific abilities than bare fists

>>715705348
Loosely inspired? Come on now, be fair. Fear and Hunger is just a guy who cant draw who just tried to replicate things he liked using references, he wanted to make a game and didnt let being unable to draw stop him.

The success of these games shows that anyone can do it, you dont need to be original you just need to actually follow through on implementing ideas. Remember when Dark Souls was just a Berserk reference? Bloodborne straight up lifts aspects that were in MTG Innistrad which released years before BB, from the cursed blood of the church to the night of the hunt, but it put its own spins on it by adding ayys. Inspiration is not just copying someone elses homework, you have to change some of the words and add some extra paragraphs.

I like 1 because it sounds most realistic but ultimately it entirely depends on how you design your combat in general

>>715701482 (OP)
>invalidating the whole loot goblin aspect
If RPG classes can work while avoiding entire aspects of the game, it only helps differentiation. That's precisely the appeal of having diplomatic or stealthy resolutions.
Decking out your character with every legendary artifact in the land is inherently attractive, it doesn't need extra encouragement, even if the monk is having it easier. And if you want the fantasy of beating demigods with only the loincloth of asceticism, knowing what you've foregone only adds to the thrill.
If you want to tune your character between fights, you could use martial stances instead of weapons. And if you want to get new attack options from enemies, you could have a unique inspiration mechanic, where your dude invents moves based on enemy species or weapon types.

>>715705916
>didnt let being unable to draw stop him

>>715701658
the only thing that's his is ass rape

>>715706032
Murata's version is better though if you forget the redraws and butchering the MA arc.
>>715706242
Berserk has ass rape too.
t. Donovan

>>715701482 (OP)
nothing wrong with 3

Give them fist weapons with lower damage than regular weapons, but they strike twice
>worse against high defense
>better against low defense
>gets 2 chances to inflict status
Give them a move that lowers enemy defense if you want them to be self sufficient

>>715706242
But thats not true. Guts was ass raped as a child by a giant nigger named Donovan, this is not a joke if this is your first time hearing this

>>715706408
This sounds so ass.
Never make a game, please.

>>715706343
That's just having a warrior class with extra steps. Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee don't need knuckle dusters, why would my character?

>>715705627

This. At least From made that happen with Sekiro's final boss

>>715706975
I making it RIGHT NOW and you WILL play it

Claws > fists > scythes > twinblades > flails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything else >>>>>>>>> katanas

>>715703460
>injects you with something that makes you cum so hard you pass out
>there is no other effect, that's it

>>715707303
That's not monk weaponry, where are the quarterstaffs and polearms? Claws first? Apply yourself Vega.

>>715707928
>monk
I do not care about channeling the 14th dragon penis chi into my inner core
I just listed what is cool

>>715701482 (OP)
I’ve never played a game where it’s not either
1. “Fist” is just a equippable weapon and being fully unarmed is still objectively bad or
2. A rigid class system gives the brawler class an arbitrarily higher fist DPS.

A cool thing would be to scale fist damage slightly, but primarily make a fist fighter more reliant on debuffs, speed and positioning. I think that’d give them an interesting niche to fill that doesn’t leave them as “warrior but shittier” but for all the games and systems I’ve tried none implement this elegantly enough for it to work in practice. If anyone’s got suggestions in vidya or tabletop I’d love to hear em

>>715703460
he wanted to rape and mutder shit

>>715708418
For SRPGs and cRPGs you have a lot of options. You can give them extra mobility, crowd control moves even wrasslin stuff. BG3 Monk is really fun, you can just yeet enemies or help set up your party for success while still being able to defend yourself if push comes to shove.

>>715701482 (OP)
1) is ok. Running a pure Monk in one of the Pathfinder games gives you an easier time in the early levels, later on your damage falls off but you still have the niche of being tanky and maybe even tripping stuff. And you become Sonic the Hedgehog on top of that.

>>715701482 (OP)
Fuck balance let them hit harder and faster than every other job in the game while being bare ass naked

>>715708853
>BG3 Monk is really fun
Not really, you just kill people by clicking on them. The other buttons do less damage and are useless compared to just killing. That's why Drunken Master is actually fun, because it's not about damage, at least not with the rework mod.