>1 tank
>1 healer
>everyone else is dps

How do we fix this?

There's no need to fix it, it works because it naturally promotes cooperative play. If you want your game to not use the trinity you don't have to use the trinity.

>>715890876
>it works
yeah.. it sure does..
>queue for 4 hours as a dps

I FUCKING LOVE IT

>>715890701 (OP)
You need to define what needs fixing first.

>>715891003
>queuing
Not a problem with the trinity, in ye olden day MMOs you didn't have automated matchmaking features for content, you had to manually assemble a part via the social features of the game.

>>715891181
yes it does. trinity requires a tank and a healer but you dont need more than 1-2 each for a party/raid which ultimately skew roles population in an mmo.

>>715891181
It's the exact same shit whether you're using matchmaking or spamming "3dps lf tank n heals" in chat for an hour.

>>715890701 (OP)
You could go back to how things were before.
So
>Tanks
>Pullers
>DPS
>Support/Buffer
>Healers

>>715890876
But why can't we have 5 tanks?

>>715891003
>he can only play dps
take a look at this loser

>>715890701 (OP)
Literally stop playing wow14.
No other game took 3 simple and very wide archetypes and made it the only role you are supposed to play as character.
Literally play any other rpg.
Just a single one in your lifetime.

>>715891315
>>715891384
Not a problem with the trinity, that's a player problem.

>>715891490
Ask the devs, if they role lock parties

>>715891490
Nothing stops you in easier content. Just don't expect a group of 5 tanks to have enough dps to down the mobs while still having enough HP for the big boss in level/gear appropriate content

>>715890701 (OP)
We need to end MMORPGs

>>715890701 (OP)
divide the criteria between front row / back row
front row characters have to maintain position or back row characters will get fucked up by melee enemies
enemy ranged characters refuse to come into melee

create encounters that require focus on positioning and luring enemies into more advantageous spots to fight and a focus on identifying and removing the most threatening enemies first

>>715891540
>its the players problem
>literally every mmo is like this
fucking spicniggers i swear

>>715891743
The problem is that most people want to play the big dick gigachad dps and show off their sick numbers on the meter. That's how you end up with a skewed ratio and 20 minute queues.
It is a self-inflicted problem.

>>715891868
This is entirely a sandbox problem.

>>715891928
It's an ego problem.

>>715890701 (OP)
Every attempt at fixing it has failed.
So maybe, just maybe....it doesn't need fixing?

imagine still playing tab targeting games in 2025

>>715890701 (OP)
Bring Back Support, so the FOUR is back to what it was in EQ and previously, because fuck Shitstain Chilton as his retarded EQ buddies.

>>715892103
>a fourth mandatory role that sucks at solo farming so nobody will play it
brilliant

>>715892012
Lost Ark doesn't have tanks and it works fine. Although that game has a whole lot of other problems.

>>715890701 (OP)
This was "fixed" in FF14's Delubrum Reginae.
Anyone could queue for one of 24 spots.
Boss didn't do much meele damage and whoever had aggro could keep themselves up with basic self heal skills.
Mechanics hit extremely hard. Getting hit 3 times meant death.
Majority of players could res, but with a large DPS loss.

>>715892505
Bozja didn't fix the trinity, it simply made it so that any job could fill in for a role at any time with the right set up and abilities.

>>715892505
So, you had a tank with self-sustain and 23 dps? Truly groundbreaking.

just remove roles entirely, make every class dps and everyone gets either a block or a dodge. magic-based classes get a particle effect version.

>>715891530
Truke.
MonHun doesn't have this issue.
From games don't have this issue.
Even fucking TTRPGs don't have this goddamn issue.

>>715891003
play other roles then you actual fucking rat, no one needs another grey parsing rogue/mage faggot, holy fuck there are billions of you, you expendable, soiled diaper meatblob

>>715891003
Never had this problem as a tank. Something must be wrong on your end.

>>715892176
>t kike goblin
many such cases

>>715893250
>play as a tank
>look for a group
>sorry bro we already have a tank

>>715893319
>wanting to do things alone and not leeching is now kike behavior
Huh?

>>715891315
>he doesn't know how to tank with bard
git gud scrub

>two tanks
>one healer
>two dps

This is the optimal formation

>>715890876

The critical problem is the same as every other game with the trinity: the VAST majority of people do not want to play the "babysitting" more selfless roles that take effort beyond simply killing stuff. So it's a constant struggle to get people to play tank and especially healer, akin to trying to get bratty children to eat their vegetables.

>>715890701 (OP)
have the tank also be the healer

>>715893658
>dies to rage timer

>>715893063
How are you interacting with your fellow players with that model?

>>715893756
>rage timer
Artificial difficulty.

>>715893671
see >>715891540

>>715893824
Fellow players? You mean bots?

>>715893914

If a particular design choice gets the same reaction from players 99% of the time it's a failure of the design first and foremost.

Remove healers entirely and make tanks a niche pick.
Everyone has their own self sustain abilities that keep them alive during the raid.
Damage is either raidwide or unique based on the raid's mechanics.
Characters should only die if they fai mechanics or fuck up their class's sustain uptime.
Or just, you know, don't play MMO since they're all fucking garbage.

>>715894219
>gamers being egocentric assholes is a design issue
Yeah. God's design.

>>715894219
But again it's not a design issue, it's a player issue and the only way to solve it is either to give skewed incentives to play the other two roles or to make them more like DPS which would genuinely terrible.

>>715890701 (OP)
make buffer/debuffer roles actually matter and make boss fights brutal without them. Buffers/Debuffers should be able to help your DPS deal more damage and tankers tank more hits etc.

>>715890701 (OP)
I think one way to "fix" this is to look back at earlier editions of D&D.
Parties often had hirelings who handled the less glamorous aspects of dungeon crawling for them. Players would use them to test traps, barricade walls and doors, haul treasure in and out of dungeons, etc.

And looking to TTRPGs, CRPGs, ARPGs and fantasy adventure games in general, classes often give players a lot of non-combat utility. In WoW/XIV, professions and stuff like that are largely class-independent (at least afaik).
I'm of the opinion that the former approach is a lot more fun than the latter. I think it provides more opportunities to explore quest, class and level design than the latter approach.

So, I think one way to "fix" this is to add a fourth role—Specialist—and turn it into a quaternary, and I would seriously consider renaming the other roles to something like Offense, Defense and Support. I think adding a fourth variety of class that's less action-oriented but has flavorful out of combat utility could go a long way in revitalizing this style of game design.

I think that making the gameplay experiences among various classes symmetrical or even balanced is a lot less important than giving them compelling reasons to share the same spaces and interact with each other, as obvious as that might sound. The fourth role could essentially just be added on top of the pre-existing trinity and still manage to add a lot to it while playing an entirely asymmetrical role in PvE content, I think.
The Specialist role could include classes like the Thief, Tinker or Archaeologist. It could even ironically house classes like a Freelancer or a Tourist.

Even more important than the quaternary I'm proposing would be the perspective from which I believe MMO classes should be designed: they shouldn't be designed primarily for the sake of balancing combat but for the sake of providing a wide variety of experiences to have and roles to fill to the player.

>>715894435
worked out well for guild wars 2
so well in fact that they went ahead and made standard healers to go along with the already existing tanks a couple expansions later

>>715894548
Literally just pic-related, maybe developers should stop being lazy. Even in games like Etrian Odyssey buff/debuff roles matter.

Remove dps and replace him with CC. CC controls all the tempo of the fight, Tank steals aggro and taunts before the wipe. Healer heals and maybe rezzes while the boss is still CC'd.

>>715890701 (OP)
mmo raids should be more like overcooked
forcing a person into the same role every time is just bad game design

>>715894927
you can get by really fucking easily with just the trinity in EO. Every DPS class has a bind skill and a status effect skill anyways so it's not like you're lacking in debuffs

>>715890701 (OP)
Remove the tank

Survival shouldn't be just one guy's job, and enemies shouldn't be so stupid they can't switch targets.

>>715895026
> Casual gamer talking about MMO RPG raids.
lol no.

>>715895026
Exactly. Well said.

>>715894738
Just make the games more like FFXI.
Seriously, half the suggestions in these threads end up being something that was already done in FFXI.

>>715890701 (OP)
make the game about concurrent sustained DOT, not a specialized DPS role. Then every class tries to survive like in touhou as the bosses health just naturally melts on its own.

>>715890701 (OP)
There's nothing wrong with tanks and there's nothing wrong with healing.
The problem is that over time DPS players have lost having any accountability for anything.
>DPS no longer have to CC because CC isn't fun
>DPS no longer have to interrupt because tanks and healers do it
>DPS no longer have to manage their threat because threat management was too hard for DPS players.
>DPS aren't punished for taking avoidable damage (there should be a 50% dps penalty for 8 seconds if you take unecessary damage)
Despite DPS players making up most of the playerbase, they have the least amount of accountability. The only thing DPS players have to do is do enough damage before the enrage timer, which is often extremely forgiving.
DPS is the zero skill cattle role for shitters who are TERRIFIED of accountability.

>>715895293
Never played it. Always wanted to, but I've pretty much missed the boat on it from what I understand.
It looks like a sick game though.

>>715895364
all the boss mechanics are aimed at tanks and healers these days too.

>>715895364
>DPS aren't punished for taking avoidable damage (there should be a 50% dps penalty for 8 seconds if you take unecessary damage)
Idk how true it is but I read somewhere ff14 does this

>remove tanks and remove healing
there has never been a single encounter / boss in "damage player only" games that has been interesting in the slightest. the defensive options in these games have always been complete trash with the solution to every fight being "whoever has agro runs backpedals like a pussy"

>>715895678
Nope, you only take penalty if you die.

>>715895338
just make the boss automatically die after a timer. make the game about surviving the timer via support skills.

>>715894927

Sounds like a role that would have even less players than healer.

>>715894548

Shitty bandaid solution that would just make people angry because most people would NEVER switch off dps but still complain they aren't getting the extra rewards.

>>715895740
1 google search anon

Warriors have charge attacks. Where are the rush shield defense skills? The fact is there is no system that supports positioning and punishing dps when they get hit out of position. Imagine they have dodges, get hit, and the enemy AI then does a focused skill attack because they obviously should have agro from being so weak and vulnerable. A tank should shield intercept that shit. Getting hurt out of position as DPS should create an Etrian head, arm or leg injury that would need to be healed.
Healers will have to push out into exposure because of those kind of mistakes, Tanks would have to push the enemy back to make space or another DPS could pick the guy up and bring them back. Those sort of mechanics.

>>715890701 (OP)
Remove healer.

>>715896018
The vast bulk of content in FF14 does not punish you for getting hit, savage and ult is difficult content where the actual punishment is failing to beat the enrage timer

>>715895182
i know how insanely complicated and tedious raid prog can get, but i still think games that stick to hard roles like tanks and healers will just get formulaic unless they switch things up.
i think a unique raid wouldn't allow you to determine your own role before a raid. it should force you to pick up specific roles randomly within the raid itself, and force you to drop a roles if the situations change.

the best levels in overcooked will make a player handle several things at once and the levels might change randomly to force them to do something else entirely. it's not the hardest coop game in terms of sheer difficulty, but i do think it has some of the best actually cooperative mechanics.

>>715896113
no. keep healer and have battle status injuries that all act like a permenant debuff till camp / inn rest but can be circumvented by local items, armor suitable for the area, etc.
Have enemies with 3 versions of themselves in a given area.

>>715896219
The vast bulk of content in xiv is for modbeasts, yes. And hard content punishes dps will damage downs.

>>715896356
We don't care about your made for casuals clicker games, lol.

>>715896481
no it punishes with body check mechanics

>>715896493
i'm just talking about the gameplay genre, not necessarily the game itself. i'm sure you can find harder games with touhou bullet hell patterns added in if you want more difficulty.

>>715890701 (OP)
make EVERYONE a dps, give each class a unique buff/debuff
litter the arena with avoidable chip damage and punish players failing mechanics with heal block + increased incoming damage
remove safespots except for the ones that severely tank your dps

>>715890701 (OP)
the problem is that dps is playing jumprope and tank is playing peggle and healer is playing diner dash

>>715890701 (OP)
By giving players an ability to be all three at the same time. Want to tank? Equip this armor/cape and select three skills from your skill pool and your generalist/jack-of-all-trades becomes tank. Want DPS? Equip these rings, and select 2 damage skills and 2 debuff skills. Want to heal/support? 1 item and 4-6 skills. Want to tank AND heal? No problem. Want to tank and debuff enemy to shit? No problem. Want to tank and DPS? No fucking problem.

"Holy" "trinity" is an issue only because developers made it so - its racketeering. They can resolve it very easily, but that will absolutely not work for them, because they just need to not do anything and go with the least amount of work/effort possible. And stupid players eat it up.

>>715897021
Blade and Soul did just this basically. Did it do well? Not really, still ongoing though.

>>715891986
Then explain why almost every MMO makes you spend a significant amount of time gearing another character to the same level just so you can play another role.

>>715896446
Remove healer.

>>715897369
>healer
>gear

>>715892718
>it simply made it so that any job could fill in for a role at any time with the right set up and abilities.
Isn't that much better than the current dedicated healer/tank setup? FF14 is mostly trash, but at least it got DR right

>>715891003
The fact that the queue line for the role that has the most available slots is so long tells me that the actual issue is Tank and Healer not being fun enough roles.

>>715891003
Get a guild and pull your weight, faggot. If you group with randos, you're worthless. In my day, we were assigned groups to grind with, and we liked it.

>>715890701 (OP)
make everyone dps, with small self heal
make all non-boss mobs tankable by anyone and make bosses not attack an individual mob but just spawn red lines on the floor as attacks that you have to avoid, that way anyone can "tank" it

>>715897781
No because it's still the trinity and FF14 already lets you play every job on every character anyway

>>715895364
>DPS no longer have to manage their threat because threat management was too hard for DPS players
This was done for tanks' benefit. One of the reason people fucking hated tanking is that dumbass DPS made your job hell and you'd sometimes get the blame for it.

wheres crowd control
wheres AOE
Wheres your utility hero

>>715898390
Lost Ark does that but the small self heal with potions is limited and not enough for the tougher raids. But there are no tanks, everyone is either DPS or Healer. If the potions were unlimited I guess they could do the raids without them as well.

>>715898849
that's a 0.4% dps loss, we can't have that in our group

>>715890701 (OP)
>>715891003
the fix is simply to make healers and tank fun to play, and to make their responsibilities less heavy. players don't play those roles either because they're boring as fuck, or too stressful, or both.
another problem is that dps have 0 responsibilities, which make it the default role for people who want to have casual fun (the majority)

>>715893063
isn't it what gw2 does, and it's boring as fuck?

>>715899092
>be dps
>have aggro meter
>just faceroll all your spells and don't out aggro tank

fuck dps

>>715899308
>don't out aggro tank
doesn't even happen in recent mmos. aggro management is a thing of the past.
to be fair retail wow tried to tackle the dps problem by putting a lot of interruptible spells in MM+, but even then most don't fucking interrupt and blame the healer because the role is 90% played by retards

>>715899308
Aggro is an outdated mechanic that exists to account for latency in an online environment on machines from 20+ years ago. It's unnecessary today and only persists because the biggest MMOs are still the ones from over a decade ago.

>>715898706
>This was done for tanks' benefit.
If a DPS player pulled agro, that is nobodies fault but the DPS player. DPSissies will blame the tank and healer before taking any accountability for their threat management. Threat should be a resource that DPS players have to manage to maximise damage output. If you pull too much threat, you should have a 15 second taunt from that mob.

>>715899819
?
what do you even do if there isn't aggro to balance? Just cast spells off cool down and dodge stupid boss mechanics?

Haven't played mmo in decades

>>715899880
Aggro exists as a way to give people the ability to manage whom bosses focus their general attacks on, many multiplayer games use some form of it even if they don't have a trinity, a class system or taunt abilities.

>>715899880
Your complete inability to name good games or good encounters that don't use threat speaks volumes.

>>715890701 (OP)
If the system only has three aspects (targeting, incoming damage, outgoing damage) you can't have more than three classes before you introduce redundancy.

>>715900172
>Just cast spells off cool down and dodge stupid boss mechanics?
basically yes
but dps rotations are way more complex than before, even on a dummy it's sometimes hard to pull it off perfectly

>>715890701 (OP)
Either don't make roles, make everyone self sufficient.

Or you make parties 3 or 6. 1 of each, or 2 of each. And no deviation. If there is any deviation from this, it all falls apart as retards try to do 4DPS 1 heal 1 tank.

>>715899092
Tanks play like dps but with taunt and a few cds and externals. Fun difference is negligible unless your fun comes from having arbitrary numbers on your screen, and stress is subjective.

>>715900187
good games wont use the trinity at all. for party roles, you'll instead have people who deal with the ads, people wh ointeract with the boss mechanics, people who damage the boss, etc.

here's a good example. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPvzFNhoZkA

>>715900479
It's generally a 4 role system, but the guy who makes this thread is too stupid to know that, and likely wants to solo MMO content because he's autistic and can't fit in with a guild.
>Tank
>DPS
>Healer
>Support
Support handles adds, keeping mana high, debuffing, buffing, and so on. Some of those roles are mixed with DPS and Healers, but there's also plenty of MMOs with hardcore support classes like EQ, where enchanters are doing raid upkeep and crowd control for the most part.
The roles you describe still fit in this 4 archetype system.

>>715900479
>deal with the ads
A few dps, maybe a tank and a healer
>interact with the boss mechanics
another tank and a few dps dps
>damage the boss
The rest of the dps plus healers

>>715900479
You linked an fight where nobody is actually fighting a boss, you have 4 people fighting adds while avoiding projectiles until the boss is stunned and you just damage something that isn't even fighting back.

>>715900743
Support has been tried many times, but there is absolutely nothing interesting about this being a dedicated role. Any 'support' functionality should be given to DPS players so they have some accountability.

>>715900912
?
make support relevant in boss fights then
thats a game design issue

>>715900794
>damage something that isn't even fighting back
It's actively fighting you by shooting projectiles and adds at you.

>>715900773
Good encounter design can force guilds to use classes they wouldn't expect to, lowering dps output. EQ2 had a lot of neat little tricks to fuck with people who tried to brute force.
>Chel'Drak had adds that had to be killed by the archetype they represented, or it would full heal the boss after a timer
>Mutagenic Outcast spawned assloads of adds every minute, which meant you needed high DPS, but had to sacrifice DPS for enchanters
>Three Princes required all 3 tank types (Warrior, Crusader, Brawler). Each type had to tank a specific mob (or they'd get soul rended constantly; resulting in stuns, agro loss, and raid wipe), and every minute and a half, they switched weapons so aggro had to be dropped on one and regained on the next
>>715900912
Except in all 3 EQs, enchanter is one of the most fun classes if you know how to play it.

>>715901037
So your idea of every DPS-Only boss fight is you just fight adds, but with projectiles to dodge? It's not even a boss fight, its just adds with projectiles.
>>715901024
Support is relevant in boss fights, its just better off being performed by the existing trinity than being a seperate role.
>>715901178
>Except in all 3 EQs, enchanter is one of the most fun classes if you know how to play it.
EQ is completely irrelevant when it comes to modern MMO design. None of its encounters hold a candle to what is expected of players today.

>>715901326
>EQ is completely irrelevant when it comes to modern MMO design. None of its encounters hold a candle to what is expected of players today.
MMOs have been for noobs since WoW came along. You must be over 18 to post here.

>>715901178
>your paladin tank has shits and can't raid tonight
Cool cool

>>715901439
If you're doing high end raid mobs (especially contested ones), you better be able to get on when you're supposed to.

>>715890701 (OP)
>Everyone is a dps with some party and self buffs / support abilities.
>You are supposed to evade attacks and not get hit, surviving is literally a test of skill not a matter of heal anymore
Done

>>715899205
No gw2 just has a different trinity, 1 support DPS, 1 healer, 3 DPS.
The support DPS provides either the quickness boon (faster attacking/casting) or alacrity (cooldown reduction), and the healer provides the other.

>>715901326
I'm not saying it's the best, but it's definitely still a boss fight. You have to get the boss to attack itself with its own missiles before you can attack one of them.
>It's not even a boss fight, its just adds with projectiles.
A lot of boss fights are just adds and projectiles, anon.

Make it so healers developing an egotistical god complex for literally just doing their job is a gang rape-able offense. There you go, that's it, problems all solved.

>>715901604
go play darksouls

>>715901801
>Healslut fag

>>715890701 (OP)
All can self-heal/sustain and DPS. Tank is chosen by the mob based on how much damage it does to him. Give a mobility based basic feature to have a constant (albeit rechargeable) mean of evading damage. Eliminate any kind of "root" type gameplay of any kind. The differences in classes should be in the playstyle and unique mechanics meant to achiev the above scenarios.
Unironically Guild Wars 2 tried to do this but it was flawed because they did not have anything to copy from. Instead of updating the system to start fixing the issues and holes, they bowed down to the faggots that wanted the HT style over the years and now the game is a piece of shit.
There is no group affected by more faggotry, retardation and pure stupidity than the MMO one. The autists have overwhelmed the genre, from HT faggots to "dads" who want a fucking MMO to "respect their time", tr00ns, retards that want to not have any group type content in an mmo and everything in between. Maybe the tendies or Sn0y fanbases have more tards, but I doubt it.

>>715901604
souls-likes and hunting games with co-op

>>715901538
At some point, it's important to realize when a genre is simply niche and to stop trying to change it to appeal to a general public who will never accept it regardless of how much you casualize it for them.

>>715901880
Disgusting I'd rather play good mmo's that literally had this sort of system in place like Dragon Nest

>>715901538
That just sounds like cuck behavior, anon.

>>715902341
Destiny 2 and Phantasy Star Online 2?

>>715902243
But surely if the necromancer is transgender and surrounded by pink sparkles, the playerbase will increase!

>>715902632
Who are you talking to?

>>715902029
I'm not the one playing a healer anon. I'm just sick of those faggots developing an ego for doing the easiest job in the game, usually sub optimally.

>>715902996
why can't i play as a pretty girl with purple hair and long nails

>>715903042
(You)

>>715891521
You can't blame people for wanting to play the fun role rather than the two other chore roles who's only purpose is to enable the fun role to have fun

Mid-battle healing has always been cancer and is the root cause of almost every big balancing problem

>>715893250
It's almost as if the most fun role ends up being the most popular, funny that

>>715893378
my friends are never consistent, so i just have 1 of each role. and if i make a raid group, ill just fill in whichever is missing.

the only time this sucks is when the game only has 1 or 2 of the tank or healer roles, and they play nearly identically.

but in games with 3+ of tanks or healers, i can at least pick the most fun ones. (and sometimes prefer it over my DPS)

Do Healers like being healers? How can you honestly enjoy missing out on combat and basically fluff your teammates so they can keep seeing combat and enjoying kills?

>>715903801
>missing out on combat
lmao such deep and thrilling combat to miss out on in mmo's

>>715895998
Nah, at least on turn based multiplayer games (e.g. dofus, wakfu) buffers are very good and desirable because they can perform effectively regardless of how good their gear is.
As long as they build a few common stats and attributes (e.g. range) they are good to go.

>>715903801
at least in pvp games you also get the thrill of being the priority target that the enemy team wants dead. i

>>715903502
true

>>715903801
yeah it's fun to do when you're a little stoned and when you're at the top of your game or make a clutch play everyone loves it

>>715901667
He's talking about launch GW2 where everyone is a DPS. It didn't suck though, Anet just didn't want to keep making content that only needed DPS and insisted on the trinity slop with the addition of raids.

>>715903801
It's the only role that requires any sort of reaction, every encounter is somewhat different as you can't fully predict how raid damage lands, your character progression feels the most impactful as raids are basically healer mana bar vs boss hp bar.

If you are not retarded you will have a custom UI, macros and keybinds that allow you to concentrate on the battle instead of starting at clunky raidframes. If you play MMOs for a long time, eventually you begin to heal as it's the only engaging role to play. Dispeller roles are also fun as you solely are responsible for raid winning or losing.

Tanking/DPSing is the job you give to your retarded little cousin.

>>715903801
>missing out on combat
Nigga they're doing the combat along side you what are they missing out on? Do you think they just stand there and heal?

>>715903801
It's fun. The only reason I switched to DPS is because the average player is less effective at dealing damage than the average healer is at healing, and you can't heal past enrage.

>>715903801
>didn't carry a gun
>dedicated healer
>got the Medal of Honor, the highest award granted to military men
>but healers miss out on combat

>>715890701 (OP)
>Remove aggro
>Remove healing, add flasks
>Add I-frames on dodge
Done

>>715905549
Don't forget
>pretend face buttons don't exist
>make players grip the shoulders like a new inmate defending his lunch tray from the Bloods
>make game slow and ponderous

>>715905648
You should have your thumbs 24/7 on the joysticks, so why should a game use the face buttons

>>715905829
It's a bad camera if I need to use the right stick more than .0003% of the time.

>>715904561
dungeons were the worst content in the game at launch
they changed it because literally anything else was better

>>715903143
Try reading.

>>715899205
it's boring if you have to watch 90% of the boss fight as a corpse because you can't survive without the tank/healer crutch. for everyone who's not a trinity casual, that is simply video games

>>715906339
Try playing Phantasy Star Online 2 or Destiny 2

>>715903801
some people enjoy playing healthbar wack-a-mole more than mastering a rotation. I know because I have mates that do and discussed it with them many times

>>715906575
that really sounds like playing solo with people around you that you don't care if they're npc or not though.
>like all modern mmos hurrr
trinity is one of the few things in moden mmos that make player interaction and synergy still relevant though. removing it can only worsen the solo mmo player plague

>>715901372
Nothing about EQ requires skill anon, stop deluding yourself. The solution to every problem in EQ is time.

>>715901679
>A lot of boss fights are just adds and projectiles, anon.
Except, y'know, they include the boss who has its own moveset.

>>715901372
>You must be over 18 to post here.
anon, wow is 21 years old. someone who played EQ and someone who played WoW when it came out are more likely to be about the same age than not

>>715907309
>never did any endgame
>>715907496
WoWhelps are perpetually 13.

>>715907560
Your complete inability substantiate what you're saying speaks volumes anon.

>>715907785
>never did any endgame
>expects me to tell a blind man what blue is

>>715908020
>claims EQ endgame is some great mechanical challenge
>completely incapable of explaining why
I accept your concession.

>>715908095
>still trying to look at porn in braille
Sorry you weren't there.

>>715890701 (OP)
We need to play with the trinity a bit more I think. And the name "tank" and "healer" is already too much typecasting to what they are supposed to do.

"Tank" implies taking hits, so that's ALL tanks are now, giant HP pools and big armor.
But what really is the role of a tank? It's to make sure the rest of the team doesn't get damaged. That's it.

So if we think about that duty to fulfill suddenly there are far more things you can do. The illusionist of Dragon's Dogma 2 is a great example for that. Just a regular mage class with low HP and Armor... but it summons in illusions that the enemies attack instead.

Same goes for a healer: what is the role of a healer? To keep the tank going and to "fix" mistakes the other roles did. Well if the tank doesn't directly get involved into the fight, the healing aspect doesn't matter as much anymore. Fixing mistakes? How about having a time mage that is able to revert party members back in time to a specific state? Yes it will heal them, but also restore all the buffs (and debuffs) as well as position they had at the point in time you restore them to. This could also then be used on an enemy by freezing them in time (they also take no damage frozen in time, but all buffs and debuff timers are now also frozen), just to stack on them debuffs and attacking skills that only do damage after a countdown.

>>715907560
it's funny how you're so eternally buttblasted from a game stealing the spotlight from your game decades ago you still think you're arguing with kids when in reality you're a 40 year old arguing with 38 year olds

>>715908631
The "spotlight" is irrelevant. Only consolepoors care about that. The community (including myself) got older and moved on because it's too much of an investment. WoW had the same issue. Now MMOs are even more casualized because 40 year old zoomers can't be expected to pay attention to anything longer than 6 seconds.
>40 year old
ZOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM.

>>715908185
>still can't demonstrate EQ's mechanical depth
still accept your concession

>>715908923
I still buy Dots at concessions.

You can't, looter mmos need the combat to be predictable and grindable because the playerbase is guaranteed to be casual.

>>715890701 (OP)
I love the autism of explaining what "DPS" means in parantheticals, but not having the self-awareness to realize "tank" will be equally as obtuse terminology to a normie who doesn't know what "DPS" means.

>>715890701 (OP)
Very simply: AI aggro that is dynamic and somewhat random, that can't be "gamed". No MMO will do this though because the gameplay is "sit still and spam abilities 1 through 99" and none of the absolute retards that play MMOs will want to have to actually manuever around or pay attention to anything other than than their enemy's healthbar and their ability cooldowns.

MMO gameplay (well, 99% of MMOs at least) is for mouthbreathing clowns. There's a reason fucking everyone in middle school played Runescape back in the 00s: it's for smoothbrains.

>>715909340
>Very simply: AI aggro that is dynamic and somewhat random
There isn't a single game with this style of co-op PVE that has good encounters.

>>715909340
>comparing Runescape to MMOs
The reason people played Runescape is because they were poor.
>you should play UO or EQ or WoW
>"I play Runescape. It's free."

>>715909472
They're all the same trash.

>>715909415
Because all the retards playing it can't think straight when they actually have to pay attention to things that aren't their healthbar or ability cooldowns. We've been over this.

>>715909605
No, because boss positioning and threat management are key to having interesting encounters.
Also, ironically, MMO's have more interesting movement than any other co-op game.

>>715890701 (OP)
remove 99% of buffs/debuffs/cc from those classes
give them to support classes that only have 1 or 2 ways of attacking for when they start out solo

We can never have a good discussion about the trinity because single player / legacy MMO retards show up offering their retarded opinion.
Truth is, the trinity is fine except for the DPS role being devoid of any accountability despite being the most popular role.
If you remove tanks or healers, encounters and the gameplay fundamentally changes. Remove tanks? Damage dealers become de-facto tanks with shitty agro management. Remove healers? The game becomes about kiting enemies because you can't take damage or position enemies properly.
DPS only exist because of inflated health pools. Remove DPS and lower health accordingly? Absolutely nothing changes from a gameplay perspective.

I play a game that has a class that is
>A tank
>A buffer
>An AoE DPS
>A single target DPS
>A healer (kind of)
>A debuffer
And it's a top tier in all of those categories except healing

>>715890701 (OP)
By not playing games that have that trinity bullshit

>>trinity is bad
>why?
>>it... it just is okay????

>>715910224
A lot of 4chan posts revolve around loneliness and autism. The OP is likely the same guy who posts the "Why are you invisible on Steam" threads. This thread is just about making it possible to solo everything because no guild will have him.

An ACTUAL DnD mmo (a VTT where content is built and ran by AI dungeon masters and parties can run into others).

>>715911129
sounds arbitrary and shit

>>715890701 (OP)
>>715897569
Holy shit these threads are always so dense with stupidity

>>715891181
>Back in my day
And that's why the genre is dead, boomer

>>715911438
MMORPGs are rare these days because they have to compete with a wider range of live service shit. That and people are a lot less social in video games.

>>715911129
You'd have to gamify too many elements to make it work.
>Oh these players aren't online but they're staying in the same tavern. You can't talk to them cause uh... the god of taverns keeps those resting in a pocket dimension for safety.

Half the replies in this thread read like people actually want literally every game to be the exact same rollslop.
Like people are genuinely averse to a game having mechanics you need to deal with or do literally anything besides hit the enemy don't get hit.
Like the entire point of not just MMOs, but party based RPGs in general is creating a setup as a team that synergizes well and gaining victory moreso through learning the game and using your brain rather than reactive unga bunga button presses.

>>715906876
Pass

>>715912036
there is a reason nobody plays as healers or tanks, and that is because they are boring garbage

>>715890701 (OP)
All you have to do is make the DPS roles really gay.
No sword welding DPS, no scythe wielding DPS, if you wanna be DPS you gotta play with a bow or a magical girl staff or a slingshot or something, and if you wanna use a sword and have main character syndrome? Sorry, you gotta be a tank. You wanna use big boy magic? You gotta be a support.

>>715912278
>Bows are gay
What?

>>715911129
D&D doesn't typically have the "massive" component. It's small party-centric. Even if parties can encounter each other, you get DDO, which is hardly a MMO.

>>715890701 (OP)
prior to this convention being established i played an mmo that did not have a tank class
there were just healers and dps, and the better the healers healed the faster the dps could convert their health into damage output
it worked great and was fun

>>715912521
Neverwinter persistant servers.

>>715912501
They're not but they're also not a class everyone wants to play because you aren't Le epic swordsman katana master dash past enemy you are already dead delayed infinite Sakura moon slash, nor some sort of powerful warrior or anything.

>>715912501
Bows are for fags. What is unclear?

>>715912857
>>715912987
I am the bone of my sword.

>>715913153
>bonersword
kek

I remember when "mechanics" actually depended on the combat system of the game, and weren't just "stand here at this time, then move and stand somewhere else"

>>715913323
>I remember when "mechanics" actually depended on the combat system of the game, and weren't [mechanics that depend on the combat system of the game]

Dofus already solved it.

>>715895701
>there has never been a good encounter in monster hunter, vindictus, dragon's dogma, or basically any soulslop game
come on nigga

>>715913445
>shilled on 4chan
>coomer pic
>no details about gameplay
Nope.

>>715891003
>matchmaking
You are playing a garbage MMO.

>>715915241
correct

>>715890701 (OP)
MMOs have had more roles before
>Dedicated Crowd control
>Dedicated enemy debuffer
>Dedicated ally buff bot
You could make any of these roles interesting, involved, and rewarding to play.

or you could do the least interesting and least imaginative way of removing the holy trinity and just have everyone do all roles.