Can Elon do it ?
Can he save us all ?

>>716361736 (OP)
>visa and mastercard stop working with any platform that allows X payments
They've done it before and they'll do it again. There's no way to topple them without getting the government to do something

>Suddenly, millions start sucking up to the payment processors and supporting censorship

>>716361736 (OP)
I somewhat forgive musk if he does this.

>>716361736 (OP)
Why doesnt someone make a lewd game marketplace that lets you use crypto to pay? Now would be the best shot at it ever happening.

The moment musk makes his own bank the blood lizard families would kill him

>trusting elon with your payments

how fucking low iq are you

>>716362150
All those who've tried and failed couldn't cut it because they'd lose in courts trying to prove that there was collusion to maintain the duopoly. Musk has enough money and autism that if he suspected Visa and MC were pulling shit like that, he could sue them and/or campaign for legislation change.

>>716361736 (OP)
yeah

Like PayPal?

>>716362342
Probably because it's expensive and risky to set it up without knowing if the customers will come.
Steam accepted crypto ages ago but they ended up stopping support because of the volatility. Are there any big markets out there that only accept crypto?

>>716361736 (OP)
Nah, he is talking solely for his site, he know that he is the next

>>716361736 (OP)
>1 e-celeb and a lolcow in a single twitter thread
And here I thought /v/ couldn't get even more pathetic.

>>716362150
EU payment processor is on the way. This is our only hope against AmeriKKKan payment processors.

uh oh melty raid

>>716362462
every bullshit VISA / Mastercard has pulled, PP has done twice over

>>716362474
>this guy again

>>716362462
paypal (and amex) already banned use for porn

Where does a genius who runs 5+ companies find the time to post retarded takes on X every hour of the day?

Oh boy more garbage offtopic spam!!! I just want the same thread forever!

>>716362504
>EU
yeah i'm sure the ZOG superstate will reject ZOG overlordship any day now

>>716362260
They already support payment proccessors deplatforming people. Leftists are just trying to hop on this train because people are blaming Conservatives, and they need a win against them.

>>716361736 (OP)
Do it Elon, you no balls gay faggot

>>716361736 (OP)
No? All that druggy faggot wants is more money and attention, he will say literally anything with no intention of doing it just to get a little hit from seeing people fawn and cheer.

>>716362504
>EU payment processor is on the way
Meanwhile the European Union:

>>716362414
That's how he started. He was shit at it though, like he is shit at most things. But luckily got bought out by PedoThiel and then sacked because he's an idiot. He's been threatening to make a twitter everything app for years but it will probably forever be vaporware, or a cybertruck.

>>716361736 (OP)
>Musk credit
I think I'll support visa thanks. Time to embrace the future I suppose.

>>716362150
>Visa/Mastercard will stop working with Tesla/SpaceX/Xai/Japan/other countries that wanna join along

Meanwhile, X becomes the only payment processor in Japan as Japan bans Visa/Mastercard

It's time to resurrect physical media, and operations in cash.

>>716362661
musk will immediately switch to obey them once they pay him enough to kneel

>>716362354
That was retarded and pathetic, but note that he didn't say he wanted to stop anyone else from playing GTA. That's the important difference.

The Checkbook is making a comeback.

>>716362462
Paypal tried to fine people thousands of dollars for "hate speech".

>>716362526
>>716362575
Lol, zoomers

>>716362661
Musk says you shouldnt castrate yourself. I'm gonna go on the limb and say, you've already castrated yourself to own Musk

>>716362335
Forgive him for what? Tricking retards into believing someone that works 25 hours/day has time to play Diablo 4 and achieve the top of the leaderboards?
What would your forgiveness even give him? PeasANT.

t. 3.6m in the bank and already sees poor people like garbage

Musk must view 99.9% of living humanity as expandable.

>>716361736 (OP)
No, he's a grifter who only cares about his businesses. He doesn't have any actual values.

>>716361736 (OP)
>cattle
>we should move to a cashless society, for convivence
>jews
>we should move to a cashless society, for control
we need a civil war in every single nation, followed up by a global holocaust. that holocaust needs to include people that even enjoyed a single israeli fart one time in 1965.

>>716362150
Musk will just get them twittered because he sits on a huge pile of money

>>716362815
i remember when PP would freeze people's accounts for any reason, or even no reason whatsoever. get your money back? lol no

Elon's payment processor cucked to the censorship mob before Visa and Mastercard, though.

>>716362550
Who are you quoting?

>>716361736 (OP)
Eh i dont know. He banned the word "LOLI" on twitter

>>716363083
and i'm sure they still do that, but for a while it was so common that everyone would know someone who got scammed out of money by pp

>>716361736 (OP)
He's too neurotic to be in charge of my money please just use crypto or something

>>716362342
Because crypto is volatile as shit in a lot of bad ways that make it hard to use as a general currency to buy shit.

Option A:
>use BlopCoin (worth $1) to buy a game
>spend 60 BC
>next day/week/month BC goes to $3 per coin
>now you've effectively just bought a game for $180
>you probably hate the game and/or yourself now

B:
>use DabCoin (worth $1) to buy a game
>spend 60 DC
>DabCoin crashes
>store is now in the hole for EVERY game bought using DC, the 50 million DC they had is now worth $12k at best, assuming they can even offload those coins
>possible bankruptcy
>company and everyone in it hates DabCoin and probably all crypto too, and backs out of it entirely

>>716363208
Do you even use Crypto to pay anything ? Prove how easy it is you cant

Won't this just push everyone into paying with crypto? What's the problem?

>>716363168
Cunny doesn't get banned tho

>>716363284
The problem

- Unstable
- Too much hassle

Thats it really. But its a big problem

We are going back to an era of cash only payments featuring mail orders. Can you say big box pc products? Ah, the 80s. So nice to see you again.

>>716362260
>>716362608
This. I didn't see 90% of the people now going "OMG FREE SPEECH IS DEAD" when said payment processors were ass-fucking Right-Wingers for the last 10 years. In-fact, the majority were in full-support and going "you're not free from consequences sweetie" and all that gay shit. I swear these moral-less, fake principles having hypocrites need to be shot already. The only freedom they care about is the shit they find acceptable.

>>716361736 (OP)
No, monopolies aren't based. Consolidating even more power under this dude isn't based.
Not gonna authorize unrestricted access to my bank account for you Elon (I'm sure you already have it anyway faggot)

>>716363331
He did banned some Cunny artists though

>>716362462
Paypal is ground zero for this kind of shit, they take shit down without needing something like CS to come along and tell them to do it.
Paypal being total shitheads over porn is why any content creator with half a brain knows you shouldn't put naughty info into your invoices, and why Patreon tells creators to paywall all NSFW content, even if the account itself is already marked as 18+.

>>716363262
>asset is bad because it appreciates
that's a new one. you must be very rich.

>>716361736 (OP)
Musk is too cowardly to do anything

>>716361736 (OP)
>Elon
He mated with a pajeet and a bbc obsessed jewish golddigger.
Just wanted to point that out.

>>716362462
Paypal wouldn't accept any of my cards for import games

>>716361736 (OP)
Can't steam just make it's own payment processor already?

>>716363393
Forgot pic

Hey Japan, how about looking at us SEA monkeys instead? We have a gift for you...

>>716363587
Aren't Steam Gift Cards effectively that?

>>716363587
Theres other payment options other than VISA/MASTERCARD/PAYPAL you know

Here's the thing about Japan a lot of Westerners don't realize. Their government, banking, financial bureaucracy is backwards and annoying as fuck.

In America they tend to make it easy for you to pay people. America, in it's capitalistic nature, wants to make it easy for people to give companies money. Japan however makes everything unnecessarily more of a pain in the ass than it needs to be. Want to pay your electric bill automatically online? Sorry you get a letter in the mail and then have to go to a convenience store and pay it there. Oh you want to pay it all at once but misplaced the letter for June? Whelp guess you better contact the utlity company and go through a whole lengthy phone call to fix this issue.

You're a foreigner trying to pay rent? Well fuck you the renting company insists you pay through a Japanese bank account and you can't start the bank account without the proper government form and you can't get the government form without an address and none of this was described to you before you signed the lease because fuck you.

Banking in Japan is a huge pain in the ass and it extends far beyond them just being weirdly prudish about "adult content".

I hate what the times are coming too at least I'm not long for this world

>>716363434
Or depreciates.
Sure I turned like $10 into about $300 via Dogecoin (would've been a lot higher but I was away from my PC during the SNL segment that crashed it and I got back late) and got a few other gains by carefully watching the markets, but then my Etherium-addled uncle rode the NFT wave even after I told him that NFTs will crash soon and his $1m ETH turned into a number low enough he avoided all conversations about crypto after that. He never told me what it dropped to and never mentioned the fact I warned him.

>>716363168
Because retards kept spamming actual kids on those tags
I mean they still are. You just cant search to prove it now

>big corpos: Actually, keep your money, I dont want it
What clown world did I end up in? I cant even wrap my head around it.

>>716363517
he's also a freemason, a baldie with a hairpiece, fat, a bitch to the jews, and pathetic enough to try and fake being good at video games. on top of that in spite of pretending to be some kind of ultracapitalist all "his" businesses are fronts for the DOD

>>716362575
And guns. But there's GunTab for that now.

>>716362335
>somewhat forgive
His worst sin is sucking pajeet cock. He was absolutely right about Trump and Epstein and lost all credibility despite now everyone agreeing he was probably right.

>>716363690
Any that's not controlled by Winnie?

>>716362580
Elon's the big picture guy who doesn't really do shit but check in with his managers and sometimes give ideas.

>>716363668
Can I use those to buy stuff on DLsite?

>>716363693
japan, still under military occupation, has had its economy intentionally hobbled

>>716361736 (OP)
Elon is going to have to make a separate internet too at some point
If only starlink laser links allowed high bandwidth we could bypass all ground infrastructure and have a fresh unrestricted internet

>>716363836
Steam Gift Cards

>>716363836
what's he gonna do, make fun of your shitty taste in games?

>>716362580
He focuses on one at a time
The second he stops focusing on one It goes to shit. Just look at starship. He will have to go down with the belt and start whipping engineers soon

ELON STARTED PAYPAL YOU ZOOMER RETARDS. THAT WAS THE JOKE.

Reminder that only 10 payment processors can exist
And all the slots are filled

>>716363836
You've got Apple/Google Pay on your phone, right?

>>716364042
no he didn't

>>716363812
>he's also a freemason
I didn't know this but I'm not surprised.

>>716364042
I assumed we were talking processors in general not the joke

>>716363284
when was the last time you actually bought a videogame with crypto?
that entire industry got coopted by them, it's over.

>>716364069
Of course not

>>716364042
>started
He didn't start shit, he was handed Paypal because of who on the board knew his father and he got handed the leadership position. Imagine being such a cockbite piece of shit that not even an equal piece of shit Lolbertarian can stand your faggot ass.

>>716364042

>>716361736 (OP)
>Grummz
>Elon
Fuck that piece of shit breast milk drinking grifter, and fuck that billionaire freak. When the fuck are the people here going to wake up that it’s people like them killing video games, not women and brown people?

>>716364078
They kicked him out even because he was a useless ideas man with autistic ideas.

>>716361736 (OP)
>X payments

But how you'll put money on it? Direct deposits and bank withdraws?
Virtually all banks are in bed with Visa and MC.
If Visa/MC tells banks to stop supporting alternative payment methods, the banks will obey.

Bitcoin solved this

>>716364237
this SO MUCH THIS SISTERS, we NEED to take down these grifter chuds once and for all

>>716364260
How does that not constitute a monopoly? I assumed shit like that was illegal.

>>716364260
Transfer from your bank or ATM -> X Payments -> stuff you want to buy
Every countries (except America) already do this

>>716361736 (OP)
Nice fake news retard
Also japan has been kneeling to japan for decades ever since they decided to blow up their economy that was going to overtake USA just to not make daddy america sad, they wont do shit about some credit cads because of porn

>>716362776
>tried
They added it anyway after the shitshow died down. Its currently in their ToS

>all the fucking retards saying JUST USE CRYPTOCURRENCY
Holy shit how fucking stupid are you retards?

The same people that already got payment processors and UK loicenses for porn also want to ban crypto so I don't know why you think you can win by outmaneuvering or outvoting them

>>716363284
Normalfriends would rather kill themselves than use crypto. Also crypto being 90% scams is an issue.

>>716364382
Underage who have zero idea how money works. Just ignore it

Just go back to mailing cash like the old days.

>>716363587
>>716363690
How would that work, you monkey? You send them money from your bank and Visa says "if you do that you won't be a bank anymore".

>>716364460
Oh yea I forgot it’s summer, like it could maybe be used but it’s so unstable that no one sane would take it

Ok here's my idea
>Create a clone of visa
>Charge 0.01% transaction fee
>But don't censor anything
literally make a billion dollars in 1 year. You in?

>>716364594
sounds anti semetic, shut it down

>>716364594
How will you pay for everyone's credit spending in month 1?

>>716361736 (OP)
>twitter screencap
>payment processors
>pride flag
>reddit
>Grumms
>Elon Musk

>all in a single post
This is the most /v/ thread in all of /v/ right now. Perhaps the most /v/ thread of the year, even.

>>716362342
Crypto will never be viable as a currency, give it up.

>>716364594
ACH fee itself is $0.29, so you cant escape that fee. Large platforms may try by using their large cash as buffer and only do large one transactions at a time rather than million small transactions. Thus saving them money, but that would require large enough reserves of their own to become their own bank.

>>716364727
>>716364594
obviously debit. the problem is can people trust you? can your system be hacked? do you even have the connections to move money internationally?

>>716363168
meanwhile, completely innocuous hashtags have constant advertisements for CP telegram channels

>>716364594
now you just have to comply with the PATRIOT act and a million other hurdles meant to make this idea impossible

>>716364594
>nobody is allowed to work with you
>you're dead
>your corpse is in terrible debt because you can't run that servcie off of 0.01%
Great.

>>716364509
Like i said. There are other Methods. This is just Issue on your people. Stop sucking VISA/Mastercard dicks. Sending Money from your bank doesnt always rely on those two jews

>>716361736 (OP)
Don’t trust this guy at all, he wants to replace everybody with infinity poojeets

I don't trust Elon at all, the only real solution is something like JCB offering banking/card services in America.

>>716364902
If you had a reliable way to prevent bots from spamming shit without fucking over regular users, you'd be too rich to post in here. So don't pretend.

>>716364975
>rp

>>716361736 (OP)
Elons gay paypal alternative also banned porn so don't hold your breath daddy grifter won't fuck it up

>>716365031
What you dont have Online stores that doesnt rely on VISA/MASTERCARD in the united states of america ??

How does WeChat pay work? Is it just apple pay with extra steps.

>>716362608
Lefties were on board when it was "feminists" doing it, but now they've been outed as "conservative feminists", so suddenly they're against it.

>>716365103
I do but I won't fall for scams.

>>716365157
None of the alternatives mean anything, because Visa and Master Card do not care about you just not using their service, they care about you not doing it at all.
So as long as more than 5% of your money comes through them you're fucked.

>>716361736 (OP)
Anti-twitter hit pieces in the (((media))) incoming.

>>716362260
Well, the people who were going "I love censorship" are already the kind of people who hate the Molusk man.

>>716361736 (OP)
what the fuck does Visa care about their brand as far as consumers go? i mean, seriously, this is just a head scratcher to me

>>716365367
This.
If you use online banking at all, chances are it's going through them and they're taking a cut. How much and where is the only question.

>>716361736 (OP)
wonder if hes sorry about selling paypal. probably not though since it was source for his empire.
but it was arguably where it started. it was them who banned whole accounts if they "thought" you got involved in anything "adult"

>>716365606
They just want to siphon all coomers into their jew-owned porn sites. For instance, onlyfans will never be hit by them. Japanese media has always threatened their agenda.

>>716362260
sweetie, nobody cares after musk became a political wildcard

>>716361736 (OP)
not sure how that went, but I wouldn't consider their brand becoming synonym with nazi ideopolice a "protecting"

>>716362504
DID YOU GUYS KNOW Brazil has a completely independent (though government operated) payment processor that is quick, efficient and modern? No, I know, it sounds unbelievable, but it's absolutely true. You can even use it on Steam and a couple other major online stores. It being government operated is obviously not IDEAL but it seems better than leaving it up to big corporation monopolies for a bunch of different reasons. But no seriously I'm a BR myself and I was baffled when I learned it worked that way, it seems way too much of a good thing for fucking Brazil to come up with.

>>716363623
that doesn't work internationally doesn't it

>>716362846
bootlicker

>>716361736 (OP)
what "Brand"""" does visa and mastercard have, all they're known for is the little logo on credit cards, no other thought is associated with them except credit card

>>716363262
you just have to stop thinking in conversion rates

>>716366036
Only works in brazil and will never ever let you buy shit directly in japanese websites.

>>716366153
this is a very anti semetic post

>>716366209
It was mostly just meant as an example of "better things ARE possible even in a shithole like Brazil" rather than a global solution kinda deal. Also, as mentioned, a bunch of big name online stores do allow it these days, surprisingly.

>>716361736 (OP)
Wasn't he a nazi pedophile that hung with Epstien and Ghislaine and was never an inventor who just wasted tax payer money?
Oh wait no. He turned on Dolando Drimpferdonus and retweeted something we like so now he's the based genius that we previously thought.

Fuck everybody's gold fish memory span and fuck the news + social media for causing everyone to succumb to culture wars.

>tl;dr- Elon is still a fag technocrat pedophile that sucks off kike dick just like everyone he's hung with and disavowed (including Trump)

>>716363693
>Want to pay your electric bill automatically online? Sorry you get a letter in the mail and then have to go to a convenience store and pay it there.
That's normal and the payment shouldn't take long because businesses have many booths that process the payment quick unless you pay in pennies.

>>716366286
good.

>>716361736 (OP)
Card companies own the whole world. You can't stop them easily.

>>716361736 (OP)

Female browsers, contact me on Discord. Tag: tchy0nn

videogames, anime, and all artistiic and creatiive—whether it's loIi, Pokemon, Fatte, Dragon Quest, Limbus Company, Bravely Default, Fire Emblem, /m/ series, Kemono, SMT, Mega Man, Monogatari, RWBY, Digimon, Disgaea or series like , Sonic, 3D SFM, Castlevania, Touhou,and more.Danganronpa, Monster Hunter, Final Fantasy, and more

>>716366209
We signed a deal recently with Italy so it will be possible with Italian goods. Also with Steam any company that decide to open an office here they can benefit from PIX. Now need PIX shills around the world. Given Japan has a lot immigrants in Brazil I wouldn't call impossible but it require diplomacy and shilling, the time opportunity is perfect.

>>716362150
>getting the government to stop moneyed interests
>while the current admin is larping as small government
>while actually supporting moneyed interests more than any admin before it
Lmao yeah no. You voted for this.

>>716363393
This is the only correct reply. My nazi ass is actually hoping these jewish card companies crack down and ruin it for coomers.
Coom brains are for sure on both sides of the aisle.
BUT - coomers typically get off to trannies, cp and lots of degenerate kike shit which the left loves openly (as well as the Jewish right aka American "conservatives" who secretly love it)

At this point the more threads I see about it in the catalog, the more harsh I hope they become just so I can enjoy the salt and they can enjoy feeling what people with "no-no" opinions can feel.

>>716366476
Musk is a cringe retard but goddamn, he can make even cringier and more retarded faggots seethe like no one else.
Godspeed you beautiful sperg.

>>716363587
Its called Steam gift cards dumbass.

>>716361736 (OP)
X Payments? Will be as successful as X Chats I imagine

>>716361736 (OP)
Maybe. He's done it before, and that's when he wasn't the richest man alive. I wouldn't be opposed to X-pay as long as he's less of a faggot than Visa is about what I use my money for.

>>716362474
Argentina, Bitcoin is their national currency.

>>716366472
But that's by the local gubmint right? Isn't that worse?
>japan sells smut! we can't allow it! kill the deal with that country!!!
I mean, isn't brazil having a fit because violence in videogames right now?

>>716362502
Both of those are lolcows.

>>716361736 (OP)
I guarantee that if he ever actually creates an alternative payment processor that he'll implement the same rules as the current ones very shortly after

>>716366814
I'm not the one crying over / planning to dox old Christian cunts for not being able to coom to cp and trannies anymore.

Hold this L fagboy addicted to jewish dopamine control

>>716361736 (OP)
no, and the fact that musk can't should be alarming. xmoney is powered by visa. you can't compete with visa, visa has no competitors, only partners.

>>716366925
wasn't it the burger dollar? what happened there?

He was also right Trump being a pedophile. Hail Elon.

>>716362724
Yeah, we need to bring back ordering games via check.

>>716362846
>>716361736 (OP)
Lol thank you for being honest these elites view the masses of people under them as nothing more then cattle they despise you so its always kinda funny mostly sad to see people worship them

>>716362909
Does he need values if he's just exploiting a gap in the market created by Visa's prudishness?

>>716367038
zog installed a (no pun) crypto jew who destroyed the currency so everything could be bought for a shekel

>>716367038
US dollar was losing value and they (specifically their current dictator) didn't like how the US government kept trying to control them with it. They still use the dollar as a physical currency, but all the shops are legally required to accept BTC.

>>716367248
which was still overpaying. oy gevalt.

>>716367086
You're in a thread of pedophiles and tranny lovers yet you like him for outing another pedophile cause he said mean things you don't like?
This is why you pedos will never win anything. You can't stick together.
Epstien is probably watching all the chaos in Israel and is so thankful his time in the rings is over.

Why would payment processors cuck themselves this hard to bring in other competitors to swoop in to become big over their bitchfaggot antics??

I simply do not understand it unless they are either so fucking retarded in their hubris or playing 5D chess.

>>716363083
please, paypal totally didn't enable an option to list a payment as for adult goods then proceed to freeze and lock all accounts that used the option.

>>716367248
No, he didn't. He actually artificially made the local currency stronger with debt and more debt, solely to make the middle class happier, in detriment of the people who actually bring dollars to the country. That said, those guys being screwed actually voted for him, so it only serves them right, LMAO.

>>716367248
Zog? No a wannabe dictator used him to bring onboard the lolbertarians into his political alliance, then had the crypto bro killed after he gained power and didn't need him anymore.

>>716361736 (OP)
protect the brand from what?

we just need to swap to monero already

Ive sent an email to my congressman, both state senators, and the white house asking for support of the fair banking act. Everyone should do this. I plan on sending actual letters when I can and calling their offices tomorrow. Everyone in these threads should do the same.

>>716364594
heres my idea
>put my money in a big sack
>put it under my mattress

>>716366824
I mean a lot of companies and artists already use xitter for advertisment. It might not be that bad right?

>>716367367
uhuh

>>716367323
they are required by law to actually enforce laws now

>>716361736 (OP)
>depending on credit card companies
lmao, what year is this?

>>716367510
Muygoy started ruling in 2024, anon.

>>716361736 (OP)
Unsuspend me, asshole.

>>716367367
>He actually artificially made the local currency stronger with debt and more debt, solely to make the middle class happier, in detriment of the people who actually bring dollars to the country. That said, those guys being screwed actually voted for him, so it only serves them right, LMAO
Holy shit. So it's basically just like with Trump now?
>promises to lower prices, doesn't
>promises to expose pedophiles, bungles and exposes himself as a pedophile
Maybe his admin would do like 3% better for his voters if they focused on them instead of kidnapping American citizens and deporting them for antisemitism

I really didn't believe liberals on the first Trump term and after about him being a "dicktator" but now I see they were right and the entire American right wing was wrong (again)

Elon just wants to sell porn to children, he's not doing this for moral reasons.

>>716367367
What's going on over there? The only reason I sort of know about it is because some guy on twitter called bepdelta was shilling for that Milei guy.

>>716367541
The year where Steam and Itch.io only accept payments from credit card companies.

>>716367510
Damn bitch you get paid like that?

>>716367510
ah, wrong dates. 2019-today zoom looks even worse kek

>>716367590
sounds based

>>716367478
They're all too busy raping kids to do that.
Reminder that all Republicans are pedophiles.
Pizza gate and Q was mega projection. This whole time it truly was rich old white men and not free loving leftists like people projected.

Reminder that the Franklin Scandal was a republican sex Scandal. Just like this Epstien Scandal is.
Epstein confirmed. Pizza gate debunked

>>716362354
This from a person who routinely abuses and humiliates his employees. I'm not buying it.

>>716367593
The artificial overvaluation of currency is leading to economic stagnation, and increase in unemployment. Evidently, working for overseas brings you fewer money (because the dollar is artificially cheap) and costs more (because the peso is artificially overvaluated). Meanwhile, we're getting into more and more debt to fund this cancerous economic project.

>>716361736 (OP)
>Protect the brand
The only job of the fucking brand is to work as a money processor, and they are failing to do that when they are acting like a snobby brownnoser/mommy with people's money, telling them what they should or should not do with it.

>>716367669
>looks even worse
its flat lined
better than plummeting