how so?

>>716418192
It was too successful. Now all outside funded RTS attempts are just the same mindless derivative of human and space wizard and disgusting bug shit-snot

>2

>>716419727
It was the other craft that did it

>>716418136 (OP)
No, spirit of the law and his autistic sycophants that did, but /v/ isn't ready for this conversation.

>>716418362
then why didn't all the non-starcraft RTS succeed if they're so good?

>>716418136 (OP)
>Single player campaigns suck
>Multiplayer is try hard
Skirmish mode is the only good thing in this game and Command and conquer generals zero hour challenge mode mogs it. Prove me wrong.

RTS peaked with Company of Heroes 2. It is a perfect game. The only other game that has come close in the last decade is Age of Empires 4. No further questions at this time.

ao2's campaign is good but the pvp is hot dogshit. no youre not a macro god for hitting the flank formation hotkey when the mangonel attacks

>>716421424
I like AoE 4. Its fun.

>>716421578
agreed, I'm a AoE2 veteran so that'll always be my preference but 4 has lots of good ideas, if it were as clear and refined as 2 it would be an even better game.

>>716419883
SotL's number crunching has only really been relevant with the increasingly complexity and activity AoE II has gotten with updates.

why didn't other types of RTS overtake Starcraft-likes if they're superior?

Starcraft 2 ruined the genre because it was so fucking good, the standard was set so high, and all other RTS just gave up.

>>716418136 (OP)
Was Warcraft 3, actually that did it
Blizzard was pissed off that DotA and other custom games was invented so they tried to counter it with making the factions have more direction counters to shit in the expansion and forcing the whole 'RTS is a legitiamte sports contest guys, it involves clicking a lot bro'

Starcraft 2 only got popular in Korea for a few years
It wasn't until Blizzard started realizing they can make money from tournaments in the west that RTS was fucked over

why is this board constantly pushing the argument that cream doesn't rise to the top? why does trash become popular and non-trash not?

>>716418362
A WoW mount brought in more Revenue than SC2.

>>716421736
4 is better in literally every single way and I'm tired of pretending it's not.

>>716421424
>hardcore westurd propagandaslop
>good
cnc games are at least trying to be cheesy with the west good east bad shit. CoH is just going full retarded

>>716418136 (OP)
blame them for pushing epsorts before the game was even out

Everything in SC2 looked like it's made of styrofoam and moved as if it's floating. So I dropped it.
But no, it didn't kill RTS games.

>>716419883
>SotL
Fuck off newfag if you weren't playing on voobly or hamachi you don't deserve to play the game.

>>716422098
this Wings of Liberty was good

>>716422165
congratulations anon, literally everything is wrong about this post

>>716422351
You're right. I'm going to uninstall Kohan and Battle Realms to make space for Fortnite and CoD Warzone

>>716421447
trvke

but sadly they have ruined the campaigns as well
the new campaigns are all dogshit and the old ones are broken because the new AI play differently than the original one

>>716422814
Nope

>>716421291
This.
The campaign story is fucking awful. Terran campaign was kinda nice to play but the other 2 were terrible. Wasn't exactly the best idea to announced that the game would be a 3 parter that people would have to buy.
Online is terrible meta bullshit with the almost exact same building order for everybody. They didn't get the balance right at all and were forced to patch it out so often. Some unit had so much change over the years its crazy.

>>716422527
Lol fuckin seethe about it tankie

>>716422936
TFT came out way before dota got even remotely popular or acknowledged by blizz
SCBW already balance the game with introducing unit specific counters before even TFT
Blizz was never pissed off about custom game scene, it was intended result of wc3's fucking robust custom map maker. They were pissed off by Valve hijacking the dota IP despite it being pretty much completely built on wc3's characters and mechanics

also, blizz somewhat pushing the tournament scene of sc2 never hampered the game's casual/single player content, considering SC2 games literally have the biggest budget and highest production value campaings in the genre, as well as one of the most fleshed out custom map makers and coop mode. None of this shit was de-prioritized because of the tournament scene

>>716421447
The real truth is that RTS are not meant for multiplayer, only single player campaigns and bot skirmish. And that's a fact.

>>716421447
you are the kind of retard who sees some high level move from some pro and assumes this is some fucking requirement to play the game

man, if you can't micro against mangonels with archers (something most of the playerbase can't do without heavy losses) then just don't fucking try to kill it with archers. Snipe it with a couple cavalry, convert it with a monk, or literally just make your own mangonel and rightclick on the enemy one

>>716423454
>TFT came out way before dota got even remotely popular or acknowledged by blizz
Wrong
>>716423454
>SCBW already balance the game with introducing unit specific counters before even TFT
Different games

>>716423454
>Blizz was never pissed off about custom game scene, it was intended result of wc3's fucking robust custom map maker. They were pissed off by Valve hijacking the dota IP despite it being pretty much completely built on wc3's characters and mechanics
Holy shit wrong

>>716423454
>also, blizz somewhat pushing the tournament scene of sc2 never hampered the game's casual/single player content, considering SC2 games literally have the biggest budget and highest production value campaings in the genre, as well as one of the most fleshed out custom map makers and coop mode. None of this shit was de-prioritized because of the tournament scene
Kino but I never said it was

So, anything else or shall you triple down on trolling?

>>716423556
AI in most RTS is really weird
On one hand, even without straight up cheats, you still have the idea of 'if it's good it's too good for most people'
At what stage do you lower things like reaction time, how many times it can click, what it can see, etc to cater to retarded normies

It;s one of the reasons RTS works so well when it focuses on campaigns since they're always almost going to be trigger based. If you made a good RTS AI like say, SupCom FAF's mod one, then you're going to get a game that's 'too hard' because it it requires you to learn the game

Most RTS players in single player just turtle and then counter

>>716423724
The other problem is what you just mentioned
What is 'fun' for most players isn't optimal and thus 'ruins the game' for new players since new players think online is just like single player, except it's far harder

>>716423212
you forgot to mention the cyclone single-handedly annihilating the entire Starcraft 2 playerbase's desire to play the game in LotV because of how much of a gookclick APMwank piece of shit it is.

>>716423556
>real time chess is not made for player vs player
nah, you are just a shitter

rts are built from the ground up with player vs player in mind. The whole reason it is fun fighting another civ even in skirmish is because they are acting exactly like if it was another player.
If you are complaining that even the lowest bar of the competitive ladder is too difficult for you then just play with friends or make a lobby for casuals/noobs

>>716421424
>Company of Heroes 2

the campaign in that game blows ass. but the multiplayer was good.

>>716423814
>Wrong
lmao, it isn't?
TFT came out a single year after original WC3. Dota didn't catch on until several iterations later, and way after it already started using TFT content
>Different games
your point is that TFT was what introduced this kind of balancing because they took it from dota. I pointed out that they not only didn't took it from dota, this is not even something TFT introduced, but something BW did.
>Kino but I never said it was
you claimed that blizz bringing the tournament scene to the genre, but it clearly didn't have a negative impact even on SC2 itself

>>716423932
>>real time chess

just play real chess. what are you, a shitter?

Big fan of AoE2, never played AoE2. I only played the Star Wars version which I never see anyone talk about.

>>716424321
Based Galactic Battlegrounds enjoyer. I always liked it better than AoE2 also. The campaigns in it are so damn good.

>>716423212
>Terran campaign was kinda nice to play but the other 2 were terrible.

Yeah. Wings of Liberty let you do campaign missions "wrong" if you were good enough. Attack the zombie buildings in the night, destroy the Protoss bases instead of just drilling the big door, etc.. The other two campaigns lock you onto rails and make you do things The Right Way

>>716424574
Yes, even if you did it right, on brutal difficulty it was challenging and fun enough.
That being said, Broodwar mog all over it.

>>716424574
Yes, also the atmosphere and sections between missions were serviceable in WoL. It went absolute full retard in HotS and I didn't even try the campaign of LotV but heard they somehow made it even worse.

>>716424321
Based, for me it's much more fun that aoe2. Wish EE added more civs, feel like there is enough material for a mandalorian civ or a mon calamari civ

>>716424191
please stop trolling, thanks

>>716423312
the clock is ticking anon
your debt crash is coming
tankie china outperforming you is inevitable
you better stop doing genocides and fascism apologism because you will just crash and burn in the new world order that much more

>>716425246
>Brown countries hate nazis
>white countries dont care
>Amerimutts and holodomers love nazis
huh

>>716425246
>abstaining from combating the glorification of nazism
>austria and germany
>abstaining from combating the glorification of racism
>france, england, scandinavia, aussies
>against combating racism
>USA
>in favor
>china
LMAOOOOOOOOOOO what kind of degenerate subhuman fabricated this dogshit map?

>>716418136 (OP)

>>716418192
It crystallized the genre. It was extremely successful for god knows what reason so everyone copied its ideas without copying its polish and generally ceased innovating.

Good example of this is Homeworld:Cataclysm. The first game has no real unit cap besides how many resources you have, and every unit in the game remains relevant due to strengths and weaknesses. Cataclysm adds Starcraft style supply, Starcraft micro, and units that are just flatly better than previous tiers.

Though really the thing that killed the RTS genre is that it flatly doesn't work on consoles and the major game publishers were doing their absolute best to kill PC in the Xbox 360 era. The few big new RTS that did get published around then were crippled by Games For Windows Live, which hurt Dawn of War II and outright killed Universe at War.

>>716421578
I also like 4 and think its fun. Thank you for listening to my post

>>716426161
>Reddit makes a good post

>>716426161
wow fucker is 100% right

>>716426161
I can't believe he's right.
What's more, I can't believe he also accurately described the problem in several other genres.
Turns out compfags killed not just FPSs and MMOs, they straight up just killed videogames.

>>716423556
This is some absolute dogshit opinion of someone who should kill himself.

>>716426161
He's absolutely right and I've said so for years. I have posted in every RTS thread calling it like it is for as long as I have been posting on this board, and coping sweatfags can never handle hearing it.

>>716426161
rare reddit w

>>716423556
85 IQ take

>>716425519
>don't care
westoids do what the westurd empire's leader tells them to do
if they have to mobilize their media to manufacture consent even for a genocide (like it is happening now) then they will all do it, and all the westoid sheeps will believe it after all Everyone around them is telling the same thing in a nice big echocahmber

>>716426040
all it takes is a google search to see that this shit is real anon, and this is nothing new or extraordinary, there were constant UN resolutions and this is pretty much always how the west reacted.
You are also clueless if you legitimately believe that the west is some anti-fascist force just because they like portraying themselves in media as the ones who defeated the fascists (which is a colossal lie already)

>>716423556
>>716426161
TRVTHNVKE

what are the best rts campaigns guys? I played sc2, red alert 2, warcraft 3 - I want cool well designed missions with a decent story to pull me along. thanks

>>716423556
>The real truth is that RTS are not meant for multiplayer, only single player campaigns and bot skirmish.
Multy is fine if its not the sole focus. They need to make more games with co-op and counter-op campaigns and stuff.

>>716427714
AoE 2 because it has 515654798 campaigns
All Dawn of War campaigns are horrible.

>>716427784
>All Dawn of War campaigns are horrible
You shut your whore mouth. Dark Crusade and Soulstorm were great.

>>716427714
C&C Generals + Zero Hour.

>>716427861
Anon will not enjoy them because he will fall asleep vs the AI in those campaigns that are mostly skirmish battles.

>>716421424
>RTS peaked with Company of Heroes 2
>2
Kill yourself.

>>716427953
>he will fall asleep vs the AI
Turn it on hard mode. That AI cheats and is a total asshole. I got my PP slapped the last campaign I tried and had to restart on normal until I got good again. I really, really hate invisible guys.

>>716426161
The games just not being cool becomes the issue way earlier than the multiplayer. Pretty much every new entry is dickless in the same way SC2 is compared to BW, and actually a lot worse in many cases like Battle Aces with it's flying cat bus thing. You need to appeal to a large number of people before the competitive aspect matters at all, and most fail on that first step. Basedbean sensibilities are garbage that don't draw anyone in but devs can't figure it out because they're almost all totally inured in that world.

>>716418136 (OP)
>2
More like 1.

>>716422351
Because we're not literally fucking retarded and understand that mass appeal shit will attract an audience?

RTS is fine though

>>716427714
hardmode: what about campaigns where I have to use my brain and adapt to the situation instead of just amass units and push

>>716422073
Because
>Blizzard property so it automatically sells
>Ooga booga gookclick game appeals to millions of autistic Koreans

>>716426161
>>716426592
>>716427124
>>716427301
>>716427551
>actual redditor sheep circlejerk on /v/
sad
this was always shitter cope, like actual bias.

RTS games from the very inception of the genre were always designed around player vs player, and they were just using the assets they created around these fundamentals to make campaigns out of them.
A big appeal of this genre is that you are fighting another civ who has all the tools that you /a real player would have, even if it's controlled by AI, they can also make bases, do economies you can harrass, build armies you can counter etc. The occasional scripted linear, attack move heavy campaigns missions were always more of a minority to break up the monotonity rather than the main appeal of even the single player campaigns.
if you want to make a mechanically interesting RTS (even for a casual) you need to make it well designed for a player vs player skirmish too first, this was never a separate thing, and RTS devs never thought about them separately, this is not a new "trend", this goes back to how games like wc1, aoe1, cnc1, sc1, etc. were all developed.

blaming bland ass games like Grey Goo's mediocricity on a "multiplayer" focus is also nonsensical (especially since that game didn't even have a fleshed out multiplayer). Stormgate is the only game in the entire genre that Tried it's luck with marketing itself to the competitive playerbase first, but again, it's more just a game with bland as fuck roster of civs/units that doesn't even have a better skirmish than what other RTS games were developed with from the start.

>>716424321
GB was the better AOE2 and should have gotten the remaster treatment.

>>716428879
>RTS games from the very inception of the genre were always designed around player vs player
Nope. Dune 2 is a single player game. Your argument automatically loses.

>>716428879

>>716428879

>>716429057
haven't played dune2 but I did play a couple "heavily single player oriented" RTS games, and I know that even a game like Stronghold was first developed with player vs player skirmish in mind, and the campaigns were only designed after they already craeted designed and balanced these units/buildings and created their assets.

Most RTS game devlopments were literally like this: they created a well functioning, well designed and balanced that works between 2 equal forces, whether it's player or ai, and then created the single player campaigns in a map maker using it's assets (and sometimes a couple more), which is also why so many RTS games came included with a map maker.

>>716429124
mucho texto but
>only 17 likes vs 700 one on the other
they hated him because he was telling the truth (probably)

>>716429525
*they created a well functioning, well designed and balanced skirmish

>>716429525
>haven't played dune2
Then shut the fuck up and stop posting as if anything you have to say is authoritative on the topic

>>716429525
Dune 2 is the first fully recognizable RTS, so why talk about what RTSes are if you don't know the origin?

>>716430498
I say that.

>>716426305
>It was extremely successful for god knows what reason
Yeah, it was a lottery. Some IPs blew up, some died forever, some deserved better, and ultimately it was just pure luck, being at the right place at the right time.

RTS sucks. I want to build a nice base and make clever decisions, not test my buttons-per-second skills against somebody. I can type quickly but that should be irrelevant to a strategy game

>>716418362
>It was too successful
so capitalism ruined rts.

Actually it's RTS failing to register that campaign and customs are the actual draw.
Regular versus is the lowest priority for most players but given the most focus by modern devs.

>>716431259
RTS doesn’t suck, your expectations do. You’re looking for SimCity with occasional skirmishes, not a real-time strategy game. The “clever decisions” you’re talking about come from managing info, timings, eco, scouting, and unit comp under pressure, not from watching your settlers mine for 30 minutes in peace. If you want comfy building and no mechanical stress, that’s fine, but don’t act like the genre’s broken just because you don’t like what it’s actually about.

>>716418136 (OP)
I haven't bought a single game by Blizzard since they took LAN out of Starcraft
I won't buy a single game by Capcom until they remove enigma from each and every title in their library.

>>716431857
>timings
Fuck you.

Play BAR

>>716430498
>>716430630
I wrote that

>>716432656
My computer that can run it is dying. Unironically solves most of my problems with RTS though, it only needs some of Zero-K's improvements to be perfect.

>>716426161
This is why 99% of my hours in Starcraft 2 are on the campaign, co-op, and pve arcade games. I fucking hate pvp multiplayer and I never got the appeal. On top of having to metafag you get less content.

>>716432656
BAR? More like FuBAR lmao.

>>716426161
/v/ really is reddit

>>716432656
I wish I had someone to play BAR with but I don't give a single shit about the multiplayer scene or the meta I just wanna goof off together

Literally just a worse WC3.

For me it's Brood War's campaign and Sunken D custom games.

Can someone explain to a gigantic moron what "hit and run" tactics are? I keep seeing it pop up with units in Starcraft like the Reaper or the Hellion but whenever I try to use units that are "low HP fast movement" they just kind of rush in and die, and pulling them out before they die means they do so little damage I'm not sure why I bother and why I shouldn't just use heavier units like tanks.

>>716432656
>bar
I've been eyeing it lately, sell it to me

Hearts of Iron 4 is the best RTS

>>716418136 (OP)
aoe2 is bigger and better than ever thoughever.

>>716426161
Multiplayer isn't the problem. 1v1 becoming the standard is the problem. Look at arena shooters: 1v1 sweat dueling was the least popular thing that only the absolute highest level players bothered to engage in. Everyone loved FFA DM, everyone loved team modes. /v/ loves to parrot that shitters want to blame teammates for their losses but that doesn't actually have anything to do with it, because if a game is fun even a lost game is fun.

The real issue is that 1v1 is too "linear". There's no space to get creative and large parts of the game's systems go to waste because they've been eliminated through optimisation.

>>716434132
In any RTS there are openings where the other player isn't paying attention. If you get scouting intel and know where to hit and when exploit that. Pulling something like that like guerrilla tactics makes a big dent with a modicum of spending

>>716434132
It's just raiding tactics. Run in when the opponent's main army is defending some other location, kills some workers, and then dip before the army gets back.

>>716418136 (OP)
Never played SC2. What should i expect?

>WAHHHH I HAVE TO PLAY AT HIGHER THAN 12 APM WAHHHHHHHHHH SOLVED META BUILD ORDER 1200000 APM TO PLAY AT MY 1800 MMR I CANT GET OUT OF BRONZE MMR WAHHHHHHHHHHHH I DONT KNOW HOW TO DEFEND A FUCKING MEDIVAC DROP

weird how starcraft 2 has everything /v/ says it wants from a rts game like a campaign with tons of missions, coop mode for casual play with friends, and custom maps where you can just turtle against easy ai, but somehow it's also the game that killed rts.

>>716421424
I fucking love DoW2 and the CoH games. It's a fantastic fusion of RTT and RTS that should be adopted by more developers, even if it's still ultimately inferior to the TA lineage of RTS games

>>716434156
>sell it to me
Good news, it's free as well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K_fSWfOC1w&ab_channel=BeyondAllReason

>>716434653
Yeah, but why should I play it in the first place
What does it do well

>>716434653
why no on steam? Is bitcoin miner?

>>716434715
>What does it do well
everything
>>716434762
it's gonna be on Steam eventually

>>716434762
ESL-kun...

>>716432656
I dislike it's aesthetics too much. Though I love supcom.

>>716432656
How is the campaign?

>>716434613
The shitters who claim to like RTS dont actually like it. They like their nostalgia of playing an RTS as a clueless kid against crappy AIs, but never cared about really getting into what the genre can offer.

>>716434403
>1v1 sweat dueling was the least popular thing that only the absolute highest level players bothered to engage in.
This is exactly why UT is better than Quake. UT wasn't as good of a duel game but it had incredible game modes.

>>716434613
SC2 fails to have a UI that doesn't burden me with busywork so no it doesn't have everything I want.

>>716434715
It's a Total Annihilation remake that got too big and changed to be its own thing. 3 factions, excellent engine, QoL stuff out of the ass, awesome MP that supports 8v8 and sometimes even 100 players at once but it's a dev event like 2 times a month. It's got several gamem odes and good AI and 2 horde coop modes and challenges. It's just really really good if you're into the TA/SupCom games, and might be the best.

>>716423556
>only single player campaigns and bot skirmish.
and LAN with friends*

>>716434582
>WAHHHH I HAVE TO PLAY AT HIGHER THAN 12 APM
Yes. APM should have steep diminishing returns.
>WAHHHHHHHHHH SOLVED META BUILD ORDER
Yes. A priority system without hard timings is much better.

>>716418136 (OP)
RTS is BIGger than ever

>>716426161
>anti multiplayer fags are just redditors
this isn't the win you think it is lool

>>716418136 (OP)
PvP is an RTS less fun than an MMO raid with meta builds outputing in the 1% and the latter is the king of lack of fun.

>>716421424
You mean COH1

>>716436238
I refuse to acknowledge its existence. They can kiss my fucking ass.

>>716429057
the original warcraft game, which is the 2nd or 3rd rts ever made depending on what you consider a rts, was created because the blizzard devs were obsessed with dune 2 and wanted to make a copy of it with multiplayer. literally every popular rts since then has had multiplayer, and every rts that still has an active community years or even decades after its release is because of multiplayer.

>>716428879
Stormgate is going to be great
Trust the plan

>>716436404
Dune 2 is the origin of the modern RTS. It was singleplayer. Genre didn't start with MP. Deal with it.

>>716422437
Yeah, I love playing CoD 5000 Cucked In My Anus 2. I love buying all the skins and at least cum to each new one I buy exactly once. Ohhh, mmm cuckpass. I buy the highest tiers of all of them have deep sex with them, oil them up and wreck my colon. I posses no thinking skills.

>>716418136 (OP)
>Starcraft 2 ruined RTS's
That and multiplayer tryhards because games are built with them in mind despite them being a small fraction of total RTS playerbase. No matter how much they want to pretend they "keep games alive" that'll never be true.

>>716428879
Why don't PVP fags buy games then? There have been plenty of RTS since SC2 and most of the die and fade away leaving nobody playing them. Every RTS with achievements show the PVP portion being the least earned among all players.

>>716432656

>>716435943
whenever I see people post clips of this game it's always the same thing with the camera zoomed out so far that units look like ants with barely any unit micro and the minimap looking like everyone just sat in their starting location and never expanded or anything. is that really exciting?

>>716436540
rare to see someone that understands MP wasn't first and is the side mode

>>716436752

>>716434132
Early harass units exist for a few reasons.
>worker harass
>scouting
>early pressure

The idea is to force the opponent to respect your early game aggression. This means that instead of macroing up to three plus bases and building workers, your opponent needs to produce units or static defense. An added bonus to early game harass is scouting and vision. Ideally the only time you trade is when you can guarantee a bunch of worker deaths. A good example of this is trading a few hellions for a bunch of zerg drones.

Some early game harass units are better in your main army composition than others but the idea is to hit the opponent with as much army value as possible, so it is important to save those units if possible.

>>716436606
>I posses no thinking skills.
Obviously, which is why you are crying on 4chan instead of making money.

>>716418136 (OP)
No, e-sports ruined the RTS genre.

AoE3 > AoE2

>>716418136 (OP)
You should support the aoe2 and bw scene, both on twitch (except for koreans)

>>716424321
I wish someone would take all of the graphics from this game and use them to reskin Age of Empires 2 Definitive Edition.

>>716436846
yeah like that basically. just ant sized robots moving slowly across the super zoomed out map. is there nothing like this where players are all over the map?

>>716434513
>What should i expect?
FUN.

Everything about the game is fun. You've got good campaigns, co-op with frens, custom games etc. The ladder is also alot of fun once you get over the anxiety. Its still a populated game, so there's plenty of players at all skill levels. You don't need 300 APM to compete, as the person you're matched against likely has a similar APM to yours. Don't take it too seriously and you'll be fine. Taking it seriously is fine too as long as you can handle failure and personal growth.

>>716421447
>no youre not a macro god for hitting the flank formation hotkey when the mangonel attacks
>t. Assmad because he gets dabbed on by macro god

>>716434467
>>716434507
>>716436995
So it's more about fighting the defenseless than it is about fighting? That makes sense why I haven't been getting much use out of them in campaign mode thanks

>>716437208
You're looking for 1v1s. 8v8s have less of an APM and micromanagement requirement by default, plus expansion has to fit everyone's space, not just yours.

>>716423556
animals like these are free to post here LMAO, wild shit.

>>716437375
is there an example of what the game is like in 1v1?

>>716422351
>why does trash become popular and non-trash not?
Idk anon, you tell me. Is it because we really, unironically are surrounded by human cattle?
Nah must be the chuddies that are wrong

>>716436540
that's like saying that since the first fps didn't have mouselook that fps are fundamentally about keyboard aiming and that every game with mouse controls is a corruption.

>>716437246
>300 APM
That kinda thing always sounded like bullshit to me. The number of clicks per minute doesn't mean shit

>>716437418
I don't have any 1v1 webms but there are 1v1 replays on youtube.

>>716418362
Play Sins of a Solar Empire

>>716423556
Based and objectively correct.

>>716437575
FPS aren't about mouse aiming, though. That's just a method to play them through. Noone has a meltdown when there's a single player FPS either.

>>716437667

>>716437425
What's with this new trend of
>why don't you tell me
>asks rhetorical question
Are people impersonating Governor Jesse Ventura?

>>716437301
>So it's more about fighting the defenseless than it is about fighting?
Its about forcing your opponent to slow down their macro game. It would be foolish of them to spend a bunch of resources and time building expansions and workers when you have three reapers and two hellions circling around their mineral lines.

>I haven't been getting much use out of them in campaign mode
The unit balance in campaign is different than the balance in ladder, so alot of the early game harass units should be a bit stronger in campaign, like the reaper. That being said, most units counter and have counters, so for instance hellions/hellbats are still useful in your main army composition if you're fighting zerglings/zealots/marines etc.

>thanks
No problem chad. Hope you have fun with your gaymes.

>>716428493
This looks like a fucking mobile game dude, it's anything but fine

>>716421424
Dawn of War is far superior.

>>716437831

>>716418136 (OP)
Age of Empires 2 is a fucking terrible RTS and I'm tired of pretending it was good. I'm talking about the version from 1999

>>716437937

Did they ever fix the pathing for AoE II? It's impossible to take this shit serious when the pathing is so atrocious that the difficulty of the multiplayer comes from managing single units in a large fight.

>>716426305
>Good example of this is Homeworld:Cataclysm. The first game has no real unit cap besides how many resources you have, and every unit in the game remains relevant due to strengths and weaknesses. Cataclysm adds Starcraft style supply, Starcraft micro, and units that are just flatly better than previous tiers.
What are you talking about, the original Homeworld does have the unit caps, in fact these are the same limits you get in Cataclysm.

>>716434132
Enemies army group is in front of base, his back of the base is undefended, send raider into back of base to target important structures, enemy realizes his mistakes and sends army to deal with raider, your raider unit is faster then enemies army group and gets away.

Simple as yea?

>>716437581
>The number of clicks per minute doesn't mean shit
You are right and wrong. Having a high APM doesn't mean anything if you don't use your APM efficiently. Spamming control groups, fast boxing selection etc will automatically raise your APM but it doesn't necessarily make you a better player. That being said, the faster your are at issuing move/attack commands, cycling through your production to build units, using camera hotkeys, and general micro will also raise your APM and generally will make you better at the game.

All of this doesn't really matter though in the lower skill brackets. I've been hovering around 120APM since platinum and I'm still finding that I beat higher APM opponents all the time. The ranking system is very good at placing you where you belong, so you shouldn't have anxiety around your APM at all.

>>716418136 (OP)
i think they need to buff handcannoneers and aoe2 would be even better than it currently is.

>>716426161
Shockingly a redditor is right. Never once bothered playing multiplayer

>>716432656
Looks way too soulless.
There's no distinction between factions and no unifying theme.
Feels bad my boy, oh yes.

>>716438186
it's the shittiest it has ever been but the next patch preview looks good. Knights can move through enemy crossbows and shit instead of bouncing off in retarded ways.

>>716433908
/v/ has been in permanent summer since 2013.

>>716432656
Make the campaign already

>>716426161
>PvP kills game culture
Pretty much. I cannot explain why people playing RTS's "inorganically" in particular bugs everyone so hard but it does, to the point where they never even touch the multiplayer button.
Imagine if EVERY enemy player in every FPS game abused sliding or some other form of mechanic abuse at every possible encounter you had with them, it would get old really fast.

The biggest problem with PvP is that it's really just about copying builds from top players and executing better than the other guy.
No one is playing a strategy game - playing organically, but a pre-rehearsed scenario that they instantly give up at the second it doesn't go according to plan, even if you win against them you don't feel very happy about it.

Oh and the biggest reason why PvP sucks - no big clusterfuck battles

>>716438928
there was a time when I thought handcannoneers are women and that belt on their front is a braid

>>716439531
Streamers certainly don't help either.

>>716435943
It's impossible for me to feel attracted to BAR because every time anons post these kind of webms I just don't understand what's going on at all. I only see dozen of missiles flying around and things exploding but I don't understand from where they're coming from or the distinction between units and shit. I see most other rts and even if I don't know shit about them at least I can tell what is fighting who

>>716438607
the reality is that if your arpm is low it's not because you physically aren't capable of it, but because you don't realize what you should be doing at the moment. if you were standing over the shoulder of a pro player and he suddenly paused the game and said "quick tell me everything I need to do in the next 10 seconds and I will use my 300 apm to do it" you probably wouldn't even list half of the things he was actually going to do.

>>716439531
>Imagine if EVERY enemy player in every FPS game abused sliding or some other form of mechanic abuse at every possible encounter you had with them
yeah imagine how stupid that would be...

>>716439976
>the reality is that if your arpm is low it's not because you physically aren't capable of it,
Incorrect

>>716440178
if you can type 60 wpm that's like 200 apm. that's enough to be pro at basically any rts except for scbw. it isn't your hands that are too slow, it's your brain.

>>716439531
>Imagine if EVERY enemy player in every FPS game abused sliding or some other form of mechanic abuse at every possible encounter you had with them, it would get old really fast.
Not sure what you are talking about, fighting games are glitch abusing galore. People datamine all values and mod in hit/hurt boxes to optimize their 1 frame 1 pixel advantages. Never let an animation be uncancelled.

That's the issue with esports as a whole. We are way past the point of just trying to learn the game.
Imagine genetically analyzing an opposing Boxer and you find a weakness in his DNA that makes him is susceptible to an epileptic seizure by using your gold teeth to reflect the spot light in a certain way. That's the state of pro play in games.

>>716440147
Tribes, Quake, Unreal Tournament were built with extreme movement in mind, im talking more about CoD, CS and Battlefield.
Remember in BF4 when people on Metro or lockers launched themself at you using the railing, and all you could do is watch and eat shit cause their hitbox was all fucked in that state and you had no chance of hitting them?
Yea, fun right?

>>716426161
Valid point. They should prioritize making good varying difficulties of AI so skirmish matches can keep you engaged longer.

>>716440262
No, because that's 60 WPM with both hands on the keyboard with a clear format for what to do right in front of you. 60 WPM with me having to take my hand off the right side of the keyboard every half second, with my left hand doing the lion's share of the work is a completely different story.

>>716440483
UT has very limited movement compared to Tribes and Quake, it's one of the reasons why it's better.

>>716423556
i can agree, you cant enjoy MP the same way you can enjoy a good campaign. Command and Conquer is proof of that.

>>716440382
>That's the issue with esports as a whole
It's a human being issue, we are just insufferable in this regard and there isn't much you can do about it.

>>716427613
>You are also clueless if you legitimately believe that the west is some anti-fascist force
the entire anglosphere have EXTREME anti-racist laws and WILL hunt down racists with greater force than hunting down child murderers. germany and austria have EXTREME laws against any form of nazism. swiss is currently trying to follow this example too.
every single european country welcomes MASSIVE influx of migrants and gives them free housing and gibs, no questions asked. getting a german passport is as easy as sitting on your ass for a couple of years, then filling out an online form.
on the other hand, china runs concentration camps for ethnic cleansing, russia sends every subhuman they can find into the meatgrinder, muslims are the biggest racists on the entire planet and various groups make use of slaves they import from other races.
you are full of shit, retard. it's not even funny.

>>716434029
i'd play BAR with you if it had human infantry

anyone have a name for this rts?

>>716439541
i wonder how cute handcannoneer-chan would be

>>716440576
>with a clear format for what to do right in front of you
this is exactly what I'm talking about. if you were a pro level player you would know exactly what your hands need to be doing so actually doing it would be easy. when you are playing as a shitter your apm is low not because you can't keep up with everything you have to do, but because you lose track of what you are supposed to be doing. if you analyzed a replay you would find that there would be periods where you weren't doing anything and just watching the screen, or where you forgot to keep making units because you were distracted by something the enemy was doing. the difference between you and a pro isn't that the pro can do everything so much faster than you can, it's that the pro doesn't forget and get distracted like you do.

>>716440483
skiing was not how tribes 1 was meant to be played

>>716436272

>>716442426
It looks very familiar and I think I might've added it to my wishlist, but I don't remember the name and there are like 350 games on there.

>>716442426
Dust Front RTS

Tell it to me straight, will Anno 117 be any good?

>>716442590
>or where you forgot to keep making units because you were distracted by something the enemy was doing.
I don't play games where I have to babysit barracks.

>>716421447
They're not ready for the truth.

>>716443882
I sure hope so, but I sure as shit don't trust Ubisoft.

>>716422757
I played HD for like 25 hours against the AI 10 years ago.
Now I picked up DE last year and have put 500 hours on it, 300 of them being on ranked (I'm still shit)

Anyone played Tempest Rising?

>>716444510
Not yet but I'm planning to.

>>716442590
>if you were a pro level player you would know exactly what your hands need to be doing so actually doing it would be easy
This is a pointless argument because if I was a pro level player I would have to not have RSI. It doesn't fucking matter that I can type 100 WPM because the method for doing that isn't the same as inputs in an RTS. One of them will make my left hand lock up and go numb. The other won't.

>>716443882
the series died when Max Design died, it's a lost art

>>716418136 (OP)
Is there any other genre that got "ruined by sweats" more than RTS? Maybe fighting games?

>>716445113
Arena FPS

>>716443882
Given how good 1800 was and how generally good ANNO is I have faith.

>>716443630
thank you, good sir

>>716429124
but at least half of this shit is just false? this one really does stink of cope

>>716444496
I've been playing for 25 years and I'm still shit, but I have fun

>>716425246
2 more weeks

>>716426161
>I want to build a base
AI skirmish on the easiest difficulty, this is really a non-issue nobody forces you to git gud at the game.
>>716426592
>>716426858
>>716427551
>>716427690
Play vs the AI you shitters.

>>716426161
>Multiplayer BAAAAAAAD
Couldn't read more than one sentence, braindead NPC takes of people who are mad that they are too bad for ranked play, if you want to build a base leisurely you can do that at 500 elo

>>716437581
APM is a bit of a relic of the times. Older RTS games had horrible path finding and people figured out that constantly clicking made the pathing better. Thing is most modern rts games have good path finding, but instead of just focusing on the strategy part and letting players watch their armies fight (aka whats makes RTS fun) they add in a bunch of extra shit so you constantly have to be clicking around.

>>716428879
>RTS games from the very inception of the genre were always designed around player vs player
Dune 2 was the inception of the genre and it didn't have multiplayer. You are 100% factually objectively wrong, and any posts to the contrary are your nonsense mental gymnastics and damage control.

>>716421013
>if high quality homemade burgers are so good, why is McDonald's succeeding?
Maybe you'll understand this food analogy, the fat americans are up and you're probably one of them. Normies gravitate towards the lowest common denominator. Dark Souls 3 is miles better than Elden Ring. Actual Tabletop gaming is extremely fun with a good group yet Bald Ass Gays 3 sold really well. Valorant is probably beating Counter Strike in player numbers. Normies are attracted to slop, not quality.

>>716446098
>Dark Souls 3 is miles better than Elden Ring.
I like Dark souls 3 but miles better is a bit much

>>716436645
We do buy games age of empires 2 sold over 4.9 million units.
>But it has campaign
Your point?
It still has active ranked ladders with tens of thousands of players, stormgate failed because the game is bland, unimaginative and a carbon copy of starcraft

>>716446215
Elden Ring is suffering from bloat in every possible way. They just took Dark Souls and went "hmm but what if we add NOTHING between all the fun things?". Not just the map design, that's just the most obvious one to look at, but in terms of builds and such too. A bunch of useless shitass sorceries, weapons, and so on that nobody uses that have to be crammed in there somehow because they thought they needed to. I could go on, but DkS3 was peak FromSlop design and Elden Ring was a step backwards.

>>716446098
Dark Souls 3 is the absolute worst "souls" game. This has to be the most brain damaged post I have ever seen.

>>716430265
>Dune 2 is singleplayer so other RTS should be singleplayer
Tell me how many people play Dune 2 to this day, more people play Dune Spice Wars which does have MP

>>716446409
>DkS3 was peak
fucking lmao the kind of shit you read here

>>716446435
That's not my argument.

>>716446431
This holy shit. DS3 is the worst souls game by a mile.

>>716446234
Coop was the most popular game mode for SC2. AoE2 is probably similar. PVE players fund RTS games period. Those goofy campaigns are what drive sales.

>>716426161
The casuals shitting up /v/ are also redditors? Who could have guessed?

>>716418192
It's just not fun for casuals. Warcraft 3 was fun, AoE 2 was fun, CoH was fun, BFME was fun, C&C was fun, even Supreme Commander was kinda fun. Starcraft 2? Forced artificial map design, high skill floor, zero RPG elements outside the campaign, basically no rubber banding/comeback potential. It's unbelievably sweaty and sterile

>>716426161
dont worry the 50 or so anons that want rts mp outside of aoe or sc are most definitely going to buy your game lmao

>>716446409
The open world was pretty well done and was a nice change of pace while still holding solid gameplay

>>716446650
>>716445839
>>716445490
>>716436272
'minder that over 90% of RTS players don't EVER touch multiplayer, and less than 10% of multiplayer games are PvP. Don't let /v/ sweatcucks speak for the fanbase just because they're more tryhard at pointless apm spam due to literal autism. THEY HAVE NO SAY IN THIS. They are the smallest niche of an already niche genre.

Multiplayer game design is anti-RTS. Developers purposefully avoid cool units, mechanics and campaigns which are the heart and soul of RTS for the sake of le balance. The delusional elitist comptards have been killing RTS for too long.

You may SEETHE, you may COPE, but RTS is a SINGLE PLAYER ONLY genre.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XehNK7UpZsc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKMrTgmivEk

>>716422098
i hate the weightless movement and the instant unit rotation

>>716418136 (OP)
I'm too slow for RTS games. I just want to build a cool medieval city and maybe send my little toy soldiers to fight the other guy's little toy soldiers every so often.

i see the same BAR webms every thread.

>>716424153
this, most boring RTS campaign I've ever tried to play SC2 does campaigns right

>>716449119
They're the only ones that got posted

>dug up an old RTS game disc I had floating around, get it installed, cracked and patched so it could actually run on a modern system
>Rise of Nations
>kinda Age of Empires esque but with a territory mechanic for map control
>had a lategame mechanic where you could build and launch nukes, once you got to the more modern ages
>however, the game also had an "armageddon" countdown, which ticked down every time a player use a nuke, and if it hit 0, the game ended and declared everyone a loser
I'm really curious how that played out in multiplayer games.

>>716447316
reminder that everyone crying about pvp wants rts to become a genre of yearly releases where you play the campaign once and then uninstall the game.

Starcraft 1 ruined RTS
but the time Starcraft 2 came out RTS had been dead for years

>>716418136 (OP)
Learn to form plurals, Korean.

>>716421447
this but unironically

>>716449583
Yes and?

>>716421447
This is why i preffer aoe3

>>716449583
I only play skirmish on most RTS games

>>716446098
That analogy doesn't match the question he asked. You reframed the terms from
>why isn't x successful
to
>why is market leader y successful
Pure sophistry.

im kinda playing (like 5mins a day) of Spellforce 3 Reforced and man i really dislike the way you get workers and shit.
Like why is there no 1/1 copy of warcraft 3 (but just barely legally different)

is there a game that combines AoE2's economy management and CoH's more tactical approach to unit control? The combat in AoE2 has always been janky. And the pathfinding somehow keeps getting worse.

>>716447316
This is completely wrong.

RTS is one of the genres where single-player sucks the most. The problem is that the AI used in SP RTS is never up to snuff to actually compete with a human on the strategic level and enjoyment of a strategy game is derived from the satisfaction of seeing your clever plans and well-executed battle control bear fruit and turn into success. When you play against AI, this just doesn't really happen. The AI is very predictable and on harder difficulty levels it often just cheats. If you play for a bit you will quickly see behind the curtain and realize how limited, or how cheaty the AI is, or both at the same time. Fighting this sort of thing in a supposed strategic title just gets very old, very fast.

I remember playing various RTS games as a kid and having trouble with the harder AI settings, but once I figured out how to beat 'em it worked every time. Yet at the same time, in the rare opportunities where I could play with friends over LAN, the game was wild and way different. Playing against actual people is an entire different ball game and the genre truly shines when you play a fair fight against another person. I'm not a huge fan of esports MMR chasing either but SP is just so limited and dull compared to the matches you can have against somebody else.

The base building aspect is enjoyable and essential but at the same time it's too simplistic to carry SP with the lacking & dull AI all by itself. I think AI being sub-par compared to a person could be solved if the base-building were made even more in-depth and as such get more focus. A SP focused RTS might work like that, maybe add more to do on the economy & building side by taking some elements from factory games and / or proper city builders, or something like that. I would love to play a SP RTS where the base building is basically Factorio-lite, there's some logistics where you need to move resources around and so on.

>>716450234
I mostly agree, but I think one anon in a previous thread was right about the type of itch singleplayer RTS scratches: city builders aren't really conclusive, you just keep playing forever and you're sort of free to do whatever. RTS campaigns at least give you some sense of urgency and ultimate goal, some people like that.

Does SC2 have three player campaign coop?

https://youtu.be/egxzPAywNEs

imagine a World without consoles

>>716422351
Because most anons have shit taste, desperately want to fit in, and disparaging anything popular is an easy way to sound superior. In reality, popularity has little to do with quality in either direction. There are plenty of entries in any medium that even the most contrarian anon would call you a shitposter for trashing that were popular and universally praised games, movies, or books when they released. Similarly, there are plenty of low-quality derivative titles that were mocked by everybody and failed.

>>716450953
o that looks pretty cool i member watching mandalores rev on it

>>716450234
you are misunderstanding who plays strategy games and why. devs intentionally make the ai in strategy games stupid because it lets players feel smart for beating it without actually having to be smart. people don't really want to be challenged to master the game's mechanics and come up with good strategies, they just want to build whatever units they feel like and then smash the enemy base with them. in fact if the game doesn't let them do that they will complain that it isn't strategic enough.

>>716429124
>does CoD thriving prevent games like Stalker from being made
Yes. Is this poster a fucking retard? Does he not remember the era of every fucking game ever trying to copy CoD and steal its audience? CoD, Fortnite and Tarkov have assraped the FPS landscape. Stalker 2 didn't happen for almost 20 after the original trilogy ended, and when's the last time a good singleplayer FPS came out that wasn't a small indie passion project or a mod?

>>716450479
I do agree that city builders scratch a different itch than RTS, but at the same time I still think that a SP-focused RTS needs some more meat on its bones as far as eco & base building go compared to the classic RTS formula.

>>716451561
>devs intentionally make the ai in strategy games stupid
No they don't. You can tell this is not true because if you increase the difficulty the AI doesn't improve in strategic ability but the game gets harder by other means, like the AI gets more resources, or builds faster or in some cases outright gets stat bonuses. This happens because making AI that actually plays and reacts like a human is hard, but tweaking numbers to make the game hard is easy. At most you might get a different set of predetermined AI behaviors at higher difficulty levels, like the hard one is aggressive while the easy one is passive and waits for you to bash it, but not an actual improvement in the AI becoming more strategic and reacting to what you are doing.

>>716452081
Yes they do. Sid Meier's written about it.

>>716446603
Stormgate, tempest rising all fail because they are bland and uninspiring, it does not have anything to do with the single player or multiplayer content

>>716446234
>Your point?
Most people playing AoE2, even at this very second, are playing single player. And that's just people playing it right now. A vast majority of people who have purchased the game do not give a fuck about PvP.

>>716452241
In which RTS games? I know because I've been playing them for 25+ years and nah not really, they don't. Of course that doesn't mean I played every RTS out there.

>>716426161
I used to play a lot of RTSs by myself in the early 00s, I loved them. But a neighbor who used to hangout with me got into only matches in the mid 00s and I remember thinking it was awful. It was extremely fast-paced and very dissonant with the historical charm of some of those games.

>>716452525
How do you know that? Have the devs released some telemetry statistics showing what people play, or where is that information coming from?

>>716452615
He doesn't have to be speaking about RTSes specifically for it to apply.

>>716422527
CoH 2 contained a highly inaccurate depiction of the soviet red army because it showed institutionalised homosexual rape whatsoever while including both capable tanks and an officer who cared for the lives of his men

>>716452675
https://youtu.be/yOC5gUM7fQM
And that's not even taking into account the fact that people who play multiplayer regularly are more likely to be online than people who just play singleplayer whenever a new campaign comes out and maybe an occasional skirmish. PvPfags are a small minority of the total people who've purchased the game. Trying to pretend that PvPfags matter because of AoE2's sales is absolute 100% pure delusion.

>Ruined the multiplayer by adding civs with built in hero units (to fucking AOE2)
>Ruined the single player by basing a campaign off of fucking Dynasty Warriors and firing the Chronicles devs
>Ruined deer mechanics by adding a chance your deer will be a bunch of unherdable chickens
>Now were getting rid of laming
What is happening to my AOE2

>>716427714
World in Conflict

>>716452525
>>716452893
>People don't want pvp
>People clearly do
>LALALA THAT DOESN'T COUNT, THERE IS ONLY 5000 PEOPLE PLAYING RANKED AT THE SAME TIME

>>716453282
>PvP keeps the game alive and that's why people buy it!
>LALALA I DON'T CARE THAT WE'RE A SMALL MINORITY OF PEOPLE WHO BUY THE GAME BECAUSE WE MATTER MORE

>>716452834
Yes he does because the topic here is RTS. If he's talking about turn-based it's a lot easier to make AI that acts reasonably competently when the game is quantized in turns rather than operating continuously, and needing to react in real-time to everything the player does.

>>716452081
>if you increase the difficulty the AI doesn't improve in strategic ability
it does in aoe2de. the older versions of the games just gave them free resources, but now the extreme ai plays at the level of a 1000 elo human. it's true that coding a smart ai is hard and lots of devs are too lazy to do it, but even when you look at turn based games that are a lot simpler than rts the ai is usually neutered to not even use simple strategies. players want ai that is exploitable because it lets them feel clever for figuring out the "trick" that lets them beat it even on higher difficulties.

>>716436703
>literally just nu-TA

>>716453484
How much did Chronicles sell compared to all the other DLCs?

Clearly not enough to keep the dev team employed, clearly not enough to usher in a golden age of single player DLCs and save us from the devs being put into a position where something like Three Kingdoms would come into being and they just have to pump out DLC after DLC when they were out of good civ ideas years ago.
>I play comp stomp twice a year and haven't purchased anything since I got the game on sale in 2020 and I am a valuable customer you need to listen to

>>716453718
Yes.

>>716453484
>PvP keeps the game alive and that's why people buy it!
Who exactly are you quoting, I never said anything close to that, you made that the fuck up.
I am saying it is retarded to say PVP does not matter when it clearly matters for people, you are just a shitter trying to force your own shitty arguments that don't even make sense

>>716418136 (OP)
Your pic related is the most popular and successful RTS right now though, Starcraft is forgotten.

>>716427714
>>716428696
Warlords battlecry 3

>>716454041
>Who exactly are you quoting,
First RTS thread? That gets said nonstop. Like the other retard who replied to me.

>>716454624
Link to the specific post that says that because I think you are making shit up

>>716453713
It's been a long time since I played AoE2, it's cool if they added a good AI to the game.

>>716450234
Trying too hard. Also forgetting that the overwhelming majority of players are casuals, they're not looking to feel challenged. Vidya is mostly about escapism, you're not there to wind down from your stressful workday with more stress.

>>716450234
Based

>>716455781
Are you retarded? Have you actually read his post to see what he's saying or did you literally ctrl F those exact words because you don't actually know how to read and comprehend English?

RTT games like Broken Arrow, Wargame, Men of War, etc are the more refined version of RTS. Having to out APM your opponents and memorize build orders is cancer. Focusing on tactics and actually winning engagements instead of eco wars is and will always be more satisfying.

>>716418136 (OP)
The economic aspect was always the boring part for me no wonder everyone moved to dota back then. The whole point of RTS games just feels like a bunch of minigames
>Mini city building
>Mini economic management
>Mini moba
It's also funny how new RTS games kept copying already successful ones, only changing the theme or art style, and then wondered why they flopped

>>716457297
>>716457469
hivemind

>>716424321
I saw some competitive games of this a while back, and you know there's some fun potential here.
I wish there was a bigger community for sure, because this game has a lot going for it. The extra bit of space like air units and vehicles, add way more variety to the harass potential and army unit composition.

some of my favorite WC3 and SC maps were the ones where you had just a small group, or were basing up against an impossible threat. You can't replicate those things online, or at least not through esports. I believe DotA was born not out of fun, but out of necessity

Why aren't you playing pic related?

>>716458317
i played they are billions and hated it. will i like this?

>>716457297
Those are boring, it's literally just dumbed down RTS with mechanics removed or simplified to the extreme.

>>716458993
Most classic RTS are like playing on a painted mat, RTTs make terrain and positioning meaningful, they are far deeper than RTS.

>>716458458
I haven't played billions so I can't tell. My friend who played both said he prefered this.

>>716456378
I have read the threads it is just retards complaining about multiplayer, you have said MP shouldn't exist in the game nobody has said that SP shouldn't exist you are making that up because people are rightfully calling you out as a retard and when asked to prove your claim you deflect

>>716458993
The combat in these games is more complex than anything traditional RTS has to offer. And in games like men of war, every individual unit and vehicle has an inventory that can be managed. If your squad of conscripts manages to kill a squad with considerably better weapons, you can take those weapons, helmets, body armor, grenades, bandages, etc and give them to your conscript squad dramatically increasing their effectiveness. A vehicles goes down? Have a unit grab the machine gun off that vehicle and be a machine gunner. In all RTT games, units also have ammo and have to be resupplied, making logistics a very important part of the game rather than building a unit and never having to worry about anything but health. Most units in these games can also be equipped with different weapons to make them more versatile or change their role. Flanking and Pincer movements are desirable and have a huge effect on combat. Add shock, panic, status effects, etc into it and RTT games are anything but dumbed down. I grew up playing Command and Conquer, AOE, and StarCraft. While they are complex in their own way, they don't reward thinking and actual strategy as much as they reward following an established meta and build order. RTT games put the S back in RTS. thanks for coming to my Ted talk.

>>716461740
>you have said MP shouldn't exist in the game
It's funny because what I claimed was said was actually said, but I never said or even implied this.
>people are rightfully calling you out as a retard
You being an absolute fucking retard who's mad that most people don't play PvP meaning that it's not actually what keeps AoE2 alive and popular doesn't equate to "people calling me out".

>>716461898
>Whines about multiplayer on reddit
>Wow stunning and brave fellow redditor I also don't like tests of skill in my video games
>Why am I being persecuted?
>They are just racist against single player content
>I can't link to any post like this its true because I say so
You still can't back up any of what you are saying

>>716424321
For gameplay purposes, they had to invent things we'd never seen in the Star Wars films, such as farms and ore mines, and many of these original designs seem out of place in the Star Wars universe. Your picture is a good example: none of that architecture matches the theme. It looks more like the Marvel Universe than Star Wars. I can imagine the X-Men training there.

There are other things that don't quite work. When idle, X-Wings and TIE fighters become static and hover on a spot, something they never do in the films, where they have constant forward momentum like the fighter planes that they are based on. Blaster fire looks like shit as well, I think because the beams are reskins of arrows.

I don't understand how people can complain that rts sucks because it requires too much apm but then praise games like men of war for
>>716461847

>>716424321
Awesome game actually
I mean AoE is great, so why don't do more AoE but 40k or another thing
It simply werks

>>716426161
>Bunch of single player sissies realize they are redditors

>>716464384
>>716446650
>>716436272
>I'm le real hardcore gaymer, look at all these casuals, hahahaha git gud..... wait, Why are the queue times taking so long? Wait... why am I still playing the same 20 year old Le Real CUMpetitive RTS?

>>716464997
AOE2 queue times take 1 minute
>why am I still playing the same 20 year old Le Real CUMpetitive RTS?
Because I dont want a new RTS unlike you :^)

>>716462203
Who are you quoting?

>>716461847
>they don't reward thinking and actual strategy as much as they reward following an established meta and build order
Real talk anon. You only believe this because you're bad and you suck at those games. The "meta" and the "build order" you believe you have to follow are literally just a more skilled player's "strategy" and he came up with them himself because - unlike you - he actually understands the game and its mechanics, therefore he can make independent decisions as to what is a good and effective strategy to pursue. The "meta" isn't some God-given decree that descends upon you from on high, it's literally just people playing the game and figuring out different strategies that work well. If you actually played any of those games I'm sure you know this, because just by playing them and trying to improve your own play, you end up discovering your own build orders as you optimize match by match.

You act like you're so basic bitch that you don't even reach the ground floor of understanding - you don't even realize there is something to be understood in the first place - you just think the way to play is to mechanically copy what somebody else is doing.

>RTT games put the S back in RTS
No. Managing every dude's pockets and his wet socks debuff isn't strategic in any way.

>>716465929
No, not really. Try playing more RTS. Might shock you to find out that some of them don't have a mechanically optimal hard build order that sets the tone for the rest of the game.

>>716418136 (OP)
Explain

>>716426305
I can agree everyone wishes to copy the game than innovate on top of the genre. RTS has been in stagnation as a genre for a long time that basically people have moved onto MOBA or something else.

>>716418362
>he thinks SC IS SUCCESSFUL
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>716467049
Herp derp

>>716462859
That's just one example, and it's not like most RTT games. Usually the APM isn't insane because every second wasted isn't making your eco suffer.

>>716465929
Eco and build order is just boring. It's like playing an excel spreadsheet. I can't be the only one who loaded up scenario editors as a kid and just had huge battles because the fight was more interesting than everything else. I use men of war as an example because there is no defined meta due to how dynamic the game is. the genre is a lot more expansive than that. I understand traditional RTS games, ive played them most of my life. I don't think they're bad, I guess I'm just bored by them. The combat will always be less complex and less interesting than an RTT game. And what am I playing the game for if not to have units battle other units? That's why I think the system is fundamentally flawed.

>>716426161
>Here, we will release an RTS solely focused on comp stomping with multi hour campaign runs, incredible flexibility in single player setup, coop, and let the player set the difficulty anywhere from ezmode to legit good AI thats hard to beat
>Fails so badly it nearly bankrupts the dev

>>716422098
>Weightless blobs melting
e-sport troglodyte can't make good games

I think warcraft ruined RTS.
RTS should be something akin to an honest to god war game.

>>716466317
basically any strategy game is going to have build orders. it doesn't matter what the game is or what mechanics it has, as long as the game follows the same rules every time you play it if you can come up with an overall strategy you can also come up with a build order to get you there.

>>716468740
No, not really. I think you don't understand the breadth of the genre if you're saying that. There are games that don't mechanically test you on build order, that don't give a fuck about timings like SC.

>>716467295
No advertising killed it

>>716437208
Modern Red Alert 1 multiplayer.
https://youtu.be/56uAF-zUX9U?si=xIa3KK7KHzoSiNjs

>>716418136 (OP)
>design around 1v1 ranked PVP thinking they'll be the next hot esports hosting million dollar prize pool tournaments
>game flops after pandering to a minority playerbase
Many such cases

If you're not building your game around customs and campaign, you don't get to complain when nobody plays a boring 1v1 build order test.

>>716469218
no you just don't understand how build orders are made. you think "in this game I want to do X" and then you work backwards from x so you can get there. X can be anything like "get an economic lead" or "use fast units to outmaneuver my opponent" or "counter the strategy that I know my opponent likes to use every time." as long as you have a plan you can also plan out the steps to get there and that's a build order.

>>716474120
Nope. You're still stuck in the wrong mindset.

>>716474339
clueless

>>716423556
You are right about everything, white man.

>>716474120
You are wasting your time

>>716474402
Nope. You yourself admitted you can't understand BAR.

>>716423556
BASED

BASED

BASED

>>716452961
they should get rid of herding desu, its too much of a hassle in already hectic early game

I LOVE STARCRAFT
EVEN 2 (once legacy final patch released)
YEAH I SAID IT

>>716422448
>homing missile arrows are le good

>>716474120
You're conflating a build order with strategy. That's not what a build order is.

>>716422437
>Source: A known prolific liar

>>716476612
nta but the other day I was going through my SC2 WoL box and the recipt was in there. I paid $AU100 for that on release day. Shocking.

>>716476612
You are severely underestimating the stockholmed-paypigs that use the wow cash shop.
These are the people who buy games, to pay a subscription, to use a cash shop just to give gold farmers money. They have devolved to something lesser than a gamer, a mutated and wretched subspecies.

>>716427714
>>716428696
Original War have a very fun campaign where soldiers are a finite resource, each have his own stats that improve by doing things and they all carry over to the next mission, but once they die they stay dead, the story is a fun adventure where Americans goes back in time to move not!Tiberium from Siberia to Alaska, in the past they meet Soviets trying to move it from Alaska to Siberia.

New RTS games are like Pokemon clones. They all start off as critiques, then wind up being exactly the same as the thing they were critiquing.

>People didn't like laddering on SC2 because it made them anxious
>So we've made exactly the same fucking thing

>>716418192
every rts released after it was gkclick

I thought They Are Billions was a pretty fun single player rts.

>>716475009
BAR has nothing but a ~1 minute build order. You build 3 mex, some power, no labs(very important), share everything you have to red/blue and you're done for the game.

>>716423556
They hated him because he told the truth.

RTS will keep failing as long as it refuses to have a solid chunk of single player content. People forget that SC2 also delivered a fuckload of campaign content, with some non-linearity in it that gave replay value, on top of good editing tools. An important aspect of a good RTS campaign is allowing player creativity in solving each mission, and not railroading them into a specific playstyle or unit comp. Side objectives that add an additional challenge for an additional bonus are also a staple of good campaigns.
Every RTS that fixates entirely on multiplayer, with the only PvE content being a glorified tutorial calling itself a 'campaign', and generic skirmish matches vs low-effort deathball AI, will be doomed to shit. A common thing found in every good RTS is not its multiplayer scene, but its singleplayer/PvE scene. IIRC, only around 30% of SC2's playerbase engages in PvP content.

I'm almost 30, played RTS since I was 5 or 6(galactic battlegrounds was my first game), and still play RTS, but I never have and never will touch PvP. It may as well be a completely different game, and it's a game that I don't want to play.

>>716422098
Starcaft 2 was garbage zoomercuck

>>716477065
peak taste

Man I love strategy games

>>716423556
I feel I'm one of the few here who enjoy RTS for both MP and SP content.

RTS are a shmup tier genre that nobody plays besides a few turtling boomers and troons that are into the competetive/danmaku side of it. Blaming a single game is a dumb take, genre was dead before SC2.

>>716478078
RTS died because SC and SC2 were so good that nothing else could compare, and when people moved on from those games the genre died with them.

>>716477958
which ones

>>716418136 (OP)
I'm enjoying tempest rising a lot

>>716449583
ideally a good rts campaign has replayability, sc2 wings of liberty campaign can be done in lots of different orders, has many tech options etc

>>716422098
I don't know why no RTS has copied the hub and the hub conversations in between missions from SC2. The most you get are just mission briefings.

>>716478353
that divinity dragon game did

>>716458317
sell me on this. So i just build base where I defend against hordes of enemies?

>>716439531
Ye imagine playing a pre-planned opening just to get the game rolling. Could hardly call it a strategy game at all.

>>716477407
It could have been but they took a rogue-like and shoehorned an RTS campaign mode on top of it. Fuck that shit.

>playing CoH as the Brits

>>716479374
jeet slop

>>716478345
I actually like the HotS campaign more with it allowing you to swap out upgrades, whereas WoL made you choose one and then you essentially get locked out of content.

>>716426161
>/v/ now fellates reddit because it doesn't hurt their feelings like >>716430498 does
lmaoooo

>>716479424
I liked the levels where you had to build up a settlement and take back the land while surviving waves of zombies more than the rogue-like levels.

>>716479814
My major issue is that you could save or reload mid-mission, meaning that if you fucked up after spending 45 minutes building your base you had to start the level from scratch.

>>716480143
couldn't*

>>716425246
they really asked Mongolians if they cared about nazism?

>>716462203
>Whines about multiplayer on reddit
Are you schizophrenic?

>>716425519
it's literally a free speech question of course americans are against it

If offering multiplayer was what killed the genre how come fighting games are still around and kicking?

RTS that fail to provide even a modestly engaging campaign like Stormgate to players are obviously going to bomb. Maybe the real problem are the developers and publishers who want to hyper focus on the tournament money potential.

>>716418136 (OP)
Co-op mode was really good, blizzard could have made it big if they cared.

>>716482325
the EU literally banned online porn because some soccer moms from the UK watched Adolescence and clutched their pearls

New RTS isn't going anywhere the same way fightan or FPS are but the old greats are still going strong.
You can get a match whenever in any starcraft same with AoE2 or WC3 and just asking around for a DoW or C&C game will likely see you find one fast.

>>716482380
Aoe2 and sc2 have bigger playerbases than any fighting game except maybe sf6. Even older games like ra2,dow,coh2 all have active players and you can find a game in no time.

>>716421578
Yeah, no shit you do. 4 is just 2 but uglier.

>>716427714
bfme 1

>>716422098
Pretty much. SC2 single player campaign has yet to be topped.

The AI ruined it for me. I don't want to play against an opponent that literally cheats

>>716432656
I'm not interested in multiplayer slop, thanks

>>716439252
Since it's all volunteer work development is gonna be excruciatingly slow

>>716483575
funny innit

>>716483889
plenty of RTS have bots that don't cheat

>>716439531
That's basically every competitive sport. If you like winning, you gotta copy the winners - use the same strategies, equipment, training, diet, and abuse the same cheats, loopholes and undetectable performance inducing drugs.

>>716483889
I don't mind the AI cheating, but it is overwhelmingly disappointing when you get good enough that you can survive the first 15 minutes against a +50% cheating AI, then in late game you see all the glaring coding mistakes accumulating and instead of having an all-out fight, you just end up facing a cripple.
Happened in Rise of Nations and AoE3. C&C Generals is also quite similar.

RTS ruined itself by being stuck in the same kind of template. Regardless of esports shit, RTS never evolved. Instead most tended to go backwards and pretended less options and features were better design choices for the future of the genre. Not to mention we're computationally limited (read: talent limited) so the heights we could have reached by now have completely stagnated in favor of releasing the same shit over and over.

>>716439531

The nuance is PvP focus is the problem. Focus should always be on the game in general and not so much on the esport players which are like 1% of your playerbase.

>>716485956
the thing is if the game is good the esports people will sort themselves out, but at the same time a lot of pvp fans are mad if every multiplayer feature they've come to enjoy isn't in the game from day 1

>>716445232

I still play Anno 2070 with the ARRC mod every now and then. Im still pissed about how 2205 ended up.

>>716418136 (OP)
It did but more in the sense that it permanently changed the perception of the genre into hypercompetitive gookclick esports slop. It portrayed the genre as a thing for the competitive 1%, so the 99% fucked of to play mobas and whatnot.

>>716449258

I found Rise of Legends way more fun. The setting was so dorky it wraps around to being awesome again. Steampunk vs. Arabian Nights vs. High Tech Aztecs

>>716477407

Ive had it wishlisted for ages. Ive seen playthroughs and it looks rad.

>>716434132
in a game mode where the enemy doesn't get resources and units for free and have a massive advantage starting base over you its to go hit their workers and production while their units are elsewhere
in campaign the reaper is specifically just there to move fast and hide up cliffs every so often and the hellion doesn't matter at all

>>716418136 (OP)
>Starcraft 2 is 15 years old

>>716476779
Microsoft said that WoW isnt that prolific anymore to keep a subscription based ownership.
Midnight is literally the swan song of the damn thing

>>716418192

The RTS genre can be revived if you just simply play this game and hop on Teams All Welcome. There's no reason not to. It's the best RTS game that has ever been created.

>>716430498
>>716479740
Because starctraft2niggers are as mentally ill as paypig wowfags

>>716487702
superseded by BAR

>>716426161
Yup. He is 10x100% right.
I recall replaying C&C3's campaign some time ago, and it was really sluggish, difficult. When i looked up what happened, it turns out that EA made a patch for it that nerfed player's tiberium harvest income to be fit for "competitive" play, which made campaign very unpleasant, and skirmish too.

As for a good multiplayer example, IMO, it is C&C Generals Zero Hour. Campaigns are still good. General's challenge is great. And multiplayer/competitive is also good.

It is a great shame that RTS is so wretched right now.

>>716488003
Zero-K did the genre saving innovation.

>>716488702
No it hasn't. RTS is dead. The genre only lives on through mobas, which are falling off slowly too

>>716426161
Remember when this video came out and blizzdrones and pvp trolls came en mass to force /v/ to be their personal army?
It turns out the devs were right once more, PVP is a cesspit, even FPS PVP is more chill than this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or8q02BQFLY
They are the biggest poopsocking pee bottling retards in the community, mechwarrior online was ruined because of these retards and only now 10 years later that caudron is unfucking the game to be tabletop and single player levels of fun once more.

PVP'ers are literally the marks and smarks of gaming

Starcraft 2 is a clickfest that's more like Dota with multiple units than proper strategy. If apm and reaction time are what's needed to win rather than smarts, something has gone horribly wrong.

>>716488991
SC2 is an extreme because everything dies so fucking fast but speed will always be key in a real time game

>>716488908
If Zero-K didn't exist, there would be no more RTS players.

>>716486549
this and heroes of annihilated empires are 2 games that need to be remade again or do a sequel

>>716489228
nobody in the AoE and Starcraft communities has even heard of your little floppa

>>716488991
truthfully you can become a top 1% player while having potato APM, strategy still matters

>>716483575
The "EU" didn't ban shit, the UK and UK alone did. But internet companies being internet companies, they force it on anyone that connects to UK servers regardless of origin.

>>716487702
The campaign is poorly designed and balanced. How did they manage to make it so unfun?

>>716489812
That's why you hop on Teams All Welcome.

>>716489637
>the top starcraft players can't beat alphastar without an apm limit being applied to it

RTS failed to capture the Modern Audience. That is all.

>>716487449
WoW died the moment Blizzard stopped understanding its own world. Midnight feels like a cobbled-together fanfic written by interns who skimmed lore wikis. Microsoft calling it “not prolific” is hysterical considering they shelled out billions for it and are now fumbling with its corpse. Wrapping it up with Shadowlands tier storytelling and shoehorning Anduin back in as some messianic figure isn’t a “swan song,” it’s a mercy killing.

>>716490130
This is what they will do.
the new cod is also going to fail, even if the "millions and millions" will pay it up, it wont be enough to keep the standards the pajeet CEO wants.
they trust more on id software than activision because id and bethesda are old carnies like microsoft

>>716432656
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afzjWxC4vZI
lmao they want to be esports gookclick

PVP sucks in RTS games because it's basically a solved genre

>economy management
>rush vs boom economies
>unit counters
>micro
>manual abilities/ground fire mechanics
>hotkeys and unit grouping

if you can learn learn the basics and metagame of 1 RTS you're on your way to being able to learn 99% of them. This means that grognards who have been playing these games for 30 years are going to have a MASSIVE advantage over a casual who, every time they engage with PVP, gets overwhelmed by someone who maybe has decent competency in like 2 core mechanics. It's unfun and getting good in that type of environment is punishing as all fuck.

There's a reason mobas killed any interest in RTS for a long time and it's because you could much more easily be matched with people in your skill level and the mechanics you had to manage up until you started gettiing to higher brackets were extremely basic. RTS games are harder and people don't like to be slapped around. It's honestly a similar problem to fighting games. Please note that I'm not saying we need to dumb everything down for casuals at all, just that you shouldn't expect the genre to grow nearly as much as much more accessible genres.

>>716491537
Close, it's more about clicking fast and making workers every x seconds. aoe2 and sc2 require the exact same skillset, they're basically the same game (but sc2 is faster)

>>716490026
you think this is relevant but it isn't, a computer can beat a human at anything

>>716418192
Pathing is too good
Units are too responsive a disciplined
Literally ruined all other 3d strategy games where you will be hard pressed to move 2 guys and a small vehicle across a 2 lane bridge

>>716491537
Zero-K solved this. Economy is based on overclocking mexes so map control is always important. You don't have to fiddle around with building metal makers or whatever, just energy. Economy management is more of a decision you make when your front is stable and protecting it from artillery and infiltration. Mex overdrive has diminishing returns, so economy is quadratic (income increases linearly over time if a portion is spent on power producers) rather than exponential.

Unit counters are fairly intuitive. Some are more cost effective than others but are slower. Some outrange and can kite the slow units. Some are fast and can close in the distance to the longer range units. Then it comes to how the units interact in the 3D space and what valid trajectories there are for the projectiles. The terrain plays a significant part in how viable some projectiles and trajectories are. All these counters come from basic physics; position, velocity, acceleration and rotation. You can just see how the counters play out in the game and see why they happen.

ALLAH ALLAH

>>716486791
It honestly really is fun. There's something satisfying about walling off your compound and surviving waves of zombies.

>>716418136 (OP)
RTS multiplayer is simply broadly not very fun.