Thread 716460963

Honest opinion on skill trees

>>716460963 (OP)
Almost no games have a good skill tree nowadays, they're usually very small and unimpressive

sphere grid is fun and even more so once you know know to break it properly in the main game. Whatever the hell that thing was in ff13 was horrible. Couldn't even finish the damn thing pre post game.

>>716460963 (OP)
I like it when they're a mix of "boring/normal" bonuses (+1% crit chance per rank, adds lifesteal to these damages, chance to stun, etc), and cool bonuses (no mana regen but all your attacks steal mana and you gain mana when damaged by spells)

>>716460963 (OP)
I like how Tales of Xillia did it, shame about Xillia 2 ruining everything

I love them.

>>716460963 (OP)
>Honest opinion on skill trees
Lost art. Modern DEI gamedevs have no knowledge of graph algorithms, so they do not understand how to make a skill tree both balanced and interesting.

>>716460963 (OP)
passives are boring, give me skill variety and gameplay options
making the game arbitrarily one shot you if you dont get generic HP nodes is boring because it makes it a necessity rendering the choice null

>>716460963 (OP)
I think this one is bad, if you look the paths are basically just straight and you progress linearly. Its just coiled around to look complex.

>>716460963 (OP)
>skill alleyway

>>716461446
Sure if you never use any of the key sphere and special spheres.

>>716461446
I tried finding that one image but the original host is dead

>>716460963 (OP)
Big and expansive to the point that most players wont understand how to minmax until they are in NG+. Weird synergies and skills hidden throughout. Easy to respec and try new things while also easy to create dogshit that can softlock you until you respec.

>>716461489
This, even on expert grid you for the most part just go down a line, it's not dynamic and interesting enough.

Sphere Grid isn't a skill tree.

>>716461546
>Passive skill that boosts skill point acquisition

>>716460963 (OP)
I remember ff12 being stupid

>>716461546
>passive skill that increases EXP gain

uniquness of sphere grid turns pointless once you can unlock and get everyone's skill. Also becomes tedious towards the end if you are a completionist trying to get everyone all powered up.

>>716461878
always the most OP ones to invest into first

>>716460963 (OP)
Expert grid is better anon.

>>716462080
If you just want to speedrun the game maybe, but if you're planning on hitting max level then you just made your final character suboptimal.

>>716461546
>meta is investing everything into econ skills enforcing most boring possible gameplay until end game and then respeccing to max everything

>>716462080
Not really. In games with limited skill points it's a waste.

>>716460963 (OP)
ff12 system was the most retarded

>>716460963 (OP)
Skill trees suck. You either dump points into early game skills, which means your character will suck later on. Or you hold off on developing skills until endgame, in which case your character will suck until then. Or you depend on skill resets to resolve this problem, in which case you might as well have been playing two completely different games.
Also, Sphere Grid isn't a skill tree. Don't know why you posted it.

>>716461089
>pre post game.
Was this during the sequel's prequel?

>>716460963 (OP)
it was a shitty waste of time

People love skill trees so much they'll make and play "CYOAs" which are just skill trees without an actual game attached.

>>716462178
not really. most of the times you get more skill points out of the investment than you spent

>Character doesnt get a single good skill until the end of the game
Looking at you diablo 2

>>716461089
I can't even remember what was in 13. All I remember is that character development wasn't worth thinking about until Gran Pulse around the time you find a hidden stash with more money in it than you have earned in the entire game.

>>716460963 (OP)
depends how long they take and how convoluted they are

>>716461546
>>716461804
>>716461878
>becomes a rush to get that every game
retarded devs

>>716462716
Haha yeah, who would do something like that?
What real loser behavior, ain't it?

>>716462886
You just spend point to move up the ladder/crystal and each stage coasted more points. The most uninspiring leveling system.

>>716462823
You are stupid. If you get 30 skill points but there's 50 skills, putting any into a skill that lets you hit the cap faster is a waste.

I'm more of a skill tetris man myself.

>>716463552
I can't think of any game with limited skill points that also have econ skill nodes

>>716463552
Not skill tree, but that's the case with fallout 3 and exp boosts. Alternatively, if the game scales enemies to your level, like fallout 4, it's equally as useless

>>716463520
This was so fucking bad I'm getting steamed just thinking about it. Not only is it a shitty attempt at recreating the sphere grid but they KNEW it was shit, they KNEW the entire game was SHIT. The entire fucking game is full of shit purely to waste your time because they couldn't actually design and finish a real game. That's why you have to sit there pressing and holding the button to "charge up" each node BECAUSE THEY NEEDED TO PAD THEIR SHITTY FUCKING DOG TURD ASS LICKING GARBAGE GAME ANY WAY THEY COULD

>>716463695
Play more games. Terminator Resistance and Samurai Warriors 1 do this, and that's just off the top of my head.

>>716461546
>Buy a skill that only works for one level/mission in the entire game

>>716463786
>Making entire builds that rely on something that only comes in the final mission

>>716463786
>build your entire skill tree around a gimmick
Like logan loophole in new vegas

>>716460963 (OP)
Is there a mod that completely randomizes the sphere grid? That sounds chaotic.

>>716463670
this is cool if the grid expands as you play. I hate getting cool stuff and having no room.

>>716464064
In the Battle Network games it does. You get a key item that expands it twice. You also get an option to compress the blocks by 1 block.

>>716460963 (OP)
Anything is better than the Junction system.

>>716462883
fireball
smite
ice arrow
maul

>>716460963 (OP)
Other than Kimahri, sphere grid is practically a line until the very end.
X did a good job on varying enemy types and character strengths to make them all have a use.

Skill trees are great IF you can finish them. Nothing worse than having to permanently miss out on one thing by choosing another, or having to choose damage skills over quality of life ones.
RPGs are meant to allow this type of grinding so the player has control of the difficulty and isn't railroaded into what difficulty devs think has the most mass appeal.

titan quests tree was BULLSHIT

Does every game these days have a skill tree?

>>716460963 (OP)
There's a huge variety of them. Passive effects trees like PoE's can be interesting as they allow you to greatly customize your build but in PoE's case it's become an annoying super optimized thing. You have to build a very specific way to make a good tree and a lot of different builds end up looking very similar because of it.

There's a certain charm to the classic way of Diablo 2 when it comes to skill trees. It might not be considered interesting or exciting in current year but it provides a progression that can be very satisfying.

>>716462240
>You either dump points into early game skills, which means your character will suck later on.
This is a balance and design issue. Early skills don't have to be worse. You can also design point limits such that you can't over spend on early skills if you want them to be worse. There's also game design elements like cooldowns and damage scaling to think of. Maybe early skills are still relevant late because they're an extra cooldown you can use. Maybe they stay relevant in damage because they use % values instead of fixed ones and scale with your gear.

>>716462886
Half the skills in the Crystarium are utterly worthless with that dogshit combat system to boot.
>Dive bomb your HP to dangerous levels to get 5 stars in combat
>or
>Use lesser used skills and tank your rating
Statements dreamnt up by deranged combat designers.

>>716462883
>Summon skeleton
>Buff skeleton and numbers
>Bonermancer destroys mid-late game
Not my problem.

>>716460963 (OP)
99% of passive effects are fucking boring. Skill trees are just bloat.

Skill trees be like
>jump > double jump > fly
or
>1% chance to heal 4% when taking fatal damage during a lunar eclipse > 1% chance to heal double when healing during a lunar eclipse
or
>you unlock everything anyway why is this a skill tree

I fucking hate 'em.

>>716467232
Even if you unlock everything eventually, choosing the order you get them still makes it better. Not having that is (one of many reasons) why Diablo 3 was shit. Abilities being a literal straight line of level gated unlocks means there was zero reason to ever play the same class twice.

>>716460963 (OP)
if you can't unlock all of the nodes by the end, it's shit
limited skill trees is fucking boring

The only good skill tree is path of exile desu senpai

>>716469016
it kinda sucks though

>>716469016
>Overwhelming vast majority of the nodes are just boring as sin "Percentile Increase" that promotes homogenization of travel paths for efficiency

>>716460963 (OP)
they can be cool but are usually implemented in a very boring way for the sake of balance.

>>716460963 (OP)
i cant stand skill trees with limited points. yes, i understand that getting every skill/passive will make me incredibly overpowered. at that point i SHOULD be! just let me have fun and have everything. if thats a problem for balance, then balance out the skills/uses/enemies, or even just let it be busted eventually.

>>716461707
Here you go. Anyway, I wish more games came even close to the build complexity of Path of Exile. I also wish PoE could be played offline so people could mod the game and fix some of the retarded balance issues it has.

>>716467232
>>716467190
Alright, we made this skill tree just for you.

>>716460963 (OP)
the bigger the better

>>716461714
>softlock
>respec
respec fags never explain why they want both. softlocks and respec together is just fake tension.

>>716469615
I'd rather click on +5 hp nodes a thousand times than level up.

I think skill trees are alright, so long as thier not too tedious

>>716460963 (OP)
>game has respecs
Great way to experiment and specialize into unique playstyles.
>game has no respecs
Great way to encourage looking up a guide and not deviate from it.

I think perks like in vampire survivors are more meaningful than 90% of these huge talent trees
nigga who the fuck cares abotu +20hp or +5 fire res
Fuck off

>>716471558
I mean the d3 style talent trees are already way more impactful

>>716460963 (OP)
I prefer it when they diagetically fit into the world or are at least somewhat thematically resonant, which they usually aren't. Their inclusion in games does not automtically illicit a negative response from me however.

>>716473472
I think DQXI talent trees are like that, they are tied to the memories and experiences of your character

>>716473392
It's fun being able to fine tune your stats to suit your own personal playthrough. Someone might enjoy going full glass cannon or at least sacrifice early game survivability for higher damage. If someone feels too squishy or is struggling they can grab more survivability if they want. That's the entire point. "I don't find it interesting because I just read min/max build guides online" is not a real criticism of the system.

>>716473712
>you do 2x damage and take 2x damage
>you do .5x damage but take .5 damage
here's your glass cannon and tanky talents, your shit is just boring.

>>716473392
those games have a lot of +20 hp type perks though

>>716460963 (OP)
hate big skill trees
just want concise menus that are easy to read
dont want to keep hovering over nodes

>>716460963 (OP)
They suck ass and I fucking hate them.
-Give me the FF7 Materia system
-Give me the KH ability system
Don't ever give me this badly designed fucking dogshit that requires me grinding 50 useless buffs and abilities that I don't want in order to use 1 that I actually want.

>>716460963 (OP)
Very boilerplate design idea for giving the player small rewards over the course of the game and some illusion of custom builds. I don't think they're inherently bad though, just boring 99% of the time. More often than not you unlock everything over the course of the game so having a skill tree in the first place seems unnecessary.

>>716460963 (OP)
As usual, it depends on implementation.

>>716461257
same, it's why I like the dragon quest games with skill points so much

i played through ff10 probably 20 times or something
never tried expert grid, is it worth a new game?

they belong in arpgs. thats it

>>716461446
This
>>716461543
You get that shit way too late

>>716463746
FF13 was basically a high budget rail shooter or early mobile game. You just move forward and look at the pretty graphics while pressing the same button over and over again.

>>716471558
It's fine overall, but half the time there are objectively best/worst options. But you could argue that was the intention, so whatever.

>>716475563
>too late
>never taught kimahri steal and use for his forced fight
anon you can get level 1, 2,3, and even level 4 key spheres during the main game. hell you can have ultima access before mountain seymour.

if they actually branch out into unique builds, great. It starts getting boring when it's a constant line of nearly identical % stat bonuses

Good when not overfilled with pointless
>+10 strength
shit between the actually interesting stuff. Passives like this are fine in moderation, but when done on the level of PoE, it makes leveling more of a chore instead of fun.
Also good when there's a way to respec and experiment.

BL2, for all its shitty slagginess, has what I'd consider the optimal skill tree approach. 3 distinct themes for a class, but with synergies between each tree, and having class items that boost over the normal point cap for skills to keep things interesting.

>>716460963 (OP)
Very good when designed competently and should be a staple in every jarpig

>>716460963 (OP)
It's a shitty gatekeeping system. Why would I have to spend points on skills that are just prerequisites? Anyone remember old Diablo 2 where there were no respecs and no synergy?

>>716460963 (OP)
Sphere Grid was mega based
Crystarium was shit