How do we fix this awful genre?

if you don't the genre then don't play it. million other genres for you to choose from

>>717398650 (OP)
playing the game slow is just as acceptable as playing it fast

Photoss proton cannon

>>717398650 (OP)
just play squad based RTS. you get all of the action with minimum micro

>>717398650 (OP)
>awful genre
>makes you hear image 20 years after playing the game
is it schizophrenia or just sc1 was peak despite units not being able to walk

Here's what would get me into the genre
>smart pathfinding
>no pointless APM; high level play shouldn't look like Michael J Fox clickspamming a minimap
>singleplayer that actually teaches how PvP is played
>actual strategic variety so it's not about running the meta build order every time
>make tech trees intuitive, i.e. if a unit has upgraded armor, it should be reflected on their 3d model.

>>717399960
If clickspamming the minimap is prevalent in high level play, then it's not pointless APM.

have ai analyze replays to detect smurfers

>>717399960
my RTS of choice has all but one of these

>>717400404
Either way it looks retarded and I want a game that's elegant even at top level.

>>717400591
That's weird, I'm not seeing it on Steam.

>>717398650 (OP)
It mutated into MOBAs. There's no reason to go back and try to improve upon Starcraft when Blizzard itself couldn't even do it right. Just play Starcraft and Warcraft 3 (original version) until you die and don't have to think about RTS anymore.

zerg players are shitty humans
protoss players are cool humans
terran players enjoy the cuck chair

the only way to fix it is releasing tiberian sun and red alert 2 source files

>>717398650 (OP)
Idk honestly, the genre by this point is just incredibly autistic.
And for new players to get into it they have to learn a whole new genre of game and control scheme, they have to do shit like learn how to build and manage stuff at your main base while moving your army around the map.

It's just a huge thing to ask of a new player, since they can't really take any skills they have from other genres into RTS.

>>717400810

only terran is human perchancebeit

>>717398650 (OP)
It’s actually very simple and easy
>Stop listening to competitive faggots who make up .01% of your player base
>No catering to “Esports”
>No obnoxious multiplayer features that will never be used
>Go back to basics and make games with good, satisfying campaigns.
>faction diversity
>mechanics that are simple to understand by even a 6 year old
All else fails just fucking copy Warcraft 3, the best game in the genre.
No your game probably won’t be a huge smash hit and that’s fine so long as there’s enough to keep people interested.

>>717398650 (OP)
i believe in the Eugen/Broken Arrow approach. Eugen has consistently fucked up every game by being French. Broken Arrow had great marketing and a great opening week, but it's dying because they're russian retards who can't code for shit and refuse to lock the cheating chinks to their own cheating region.

>>717399960
Pathfinding that's too good makes the game boring, and I mean that both to play and watch, unironically

>>717398650 (OP)
Filtered

>>717401169
the only people interested in strategy games with hero units moved on to clash of clans and other such mobile horseshit or are slavs replaying homm ad nauseam

>>717399960
You're describing Zero-K. BAR too, but BAR's single player is just skirmishes against an AI that plays like low level players who have the basics down and isolated scenario missions.

>>717401579
Shitty pathfinding makes a game boring to watch and play.

>>717398650 (OP)
The total war games and factory games are the natural evolution of the traditional RTS.

For those who enjoy tactics/micro/rockpaperscissors, Total War has the army comp portion removed to a separate strategy layer
For those who enjoy basebuilding/efficiency, Factorio and its progeny exist

The days of autistically memorizing build orders and gookclick APM is over, nobody wants to do that shit anymore my dude. RTS lost. When TW:W40k comes out, it's officially ogre.

>>717402761
total war is so fucking jank you can't possibly call it the best rts (it's actually a tbs/rtt hybrid). people shit on starcraft for having bad controls for a 1998 game, but the newest total war is from last year and it still doesn't even have an attack move hotkey.

>>717399280
phatass butt-ton cannon

>>717398650 (OP)
Lol, they also cannon rushed me when i came back to broodwar...got to learn how to climb minerals

>>717398650 (OP)
reduce focus on the multiplayer side mode and go back to the genre's singleplayer foundations

>>717402761
Total war Is trash for extremely lazy players

>>717398650 (OP)
By transplanting an actual brain into your empty head. But brain supply is at an all time low so that's an impossibility.

>>717399960
>no pointless APM; high level play shouldn't look like Michael J Fox clickspamming a minimap
"APM" will always be vital to the pvp in any RTS.
The truth is that unless you're playing at a Korean starcraft level already, APM isn't actually about pointlessly clicking more but really about splitting your focus to control as many things as you can.

>>717398650 (OP)
Single player only

>>717404706
Noone said it was about pointlessly clicking more.

>>717402897
>and it still doesn't even have an attack move hotkey.
Attack move would be retarded and makes zero sense in a formation-based game like that.
There are serious problems with the game's UI and controls but that isn't one. Real problems are how weird and fucked unit masses are in modern Total War, shooters refusing to form up and shoot because one guy is stuck in some blob a hundred meters away and then reforming to turn and shoot every four seconds, the absolutely fucked way units implement shift-queues, etc.

>>717399960
>singleplayer that actually teaches how PvP is played
never ever because multiplayer always devolves into weird apm metrics and abstract macro techniques + strategies that may or may not be intended

>>717398650 (OP)
Focus on entertaining single player campaigns rather than trying to revive a dead multiplayer scene.

>>717404768
It was implied, because otherwise you have no reason to sperg out about it

>>717404841
>Real Time Strategy games always 'devolve' into how fast you can control things in Real Time and the Strategies you use
Thank you for your insight.

>>717399631
MREOWWW
HHRYEEAAAAAA
MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
ROSE EATIN’
YOU WANNA PIECE OF ME, BOA?
BATTLECROOSER OPERASHUNAL
NEED A LIGHT?

>>717401169
>>717404730
>>717404851
>>717404314
Nobody fucking plays singleplayer RTS.
Nobody has fucking played singleplayer RTS since 2005.
The genre was getting more and more singleplayer focused when it died, you just only heard about the multiplayer games because they're the only ones people care about.
There still are occasional singleplayer RTS games, you just don't hear about them because NOBODY FUCKING CARES.

>>717405016
And throwing money at a dead end is any better lol? If neither SP nor MP can survive then just bury the genre forever.
At least SP focused RTS is worth playing when the population inevitably dwindles, just like I'm in the process of replaying Red Alert 1 right fucking now.

>>717398650 (OP)
Literally make tournaments/ prize money illegal. Also kill everyone who says he's a 'competetive' player

>>717401994
more people watch asl than gsl

>>717405329
I literally could not give less of a fuck. Starcraft's boring to watch and play.

>>717404706
This just isn't true. So many RTS have APM taxes built into the game that don't have to be.

>>717405016
>Nobody fucking plays singleplayer RTS.
I do

>>717398650 (OP)
It needs some honest to god flair again. The new RTS games hitting the market are doa because they look visually derivative of an older title or flat out cheap. Nobody knows these games exist because they look like bland copies of something people played 15 years ago. People WANT to control big armies of shit, that hasn't gone anywhere. Make it look cool and people will try it again.

>>717399960
>>717401947
>You're describing Zero-K. BAR too,
this is why i gave up on RTS genre. There are good RTS games being made but they die quickly anyways or are super obscure. RTS is such a niche genre its basically a cult following genre and that cult is already fixated on game franchises that came out 30 years ago.

>>717406168
Zero-K was always going to be niche, it wasn't a huge game even when it was Complete Annihilation. BAR is doing fine before it has a full Steam release.

>>717398650 (OP)
By installing forged alliance forever.

>>717405749
Are you just fucking lying at this point? The last 6-12 RTS released all have auto-bots and helper-managers to automatically assign your workers and resources. You can customize your level of APM at every turn, modern RTS go out of their way to ensure this. Do you even play RTS you niggercattle?

>>717406415
No need for racism man.

>>717406469
How so? People who don't play RTS but have opinions on them are literally niggercattle. They are less than human by the definition of the word. A healthy society would exterminate them.

>>717406415
How does that change literally anything I said? Do you deny that SC2 intentionally added larval injection as an APM tax? Do you deny that the way you queue units in nearly every single game in the genre requires player upkeep?

>>717406469
>>>/reddit/

>>717405016
>Nobody plays single player rts
That’s simply not true. All the most well liked and played RTS of the past decade and a half had engaging single player campaigns. This is the entry point for casuals into the genre.
>The genre was getting more and more singleplayer focused when it died,
The genre died because literally all the traditional companies that made said games went under, or started making other shit. It died in spite of single player campaigns drawing players in not because of it

>>717405016
>Nobody fucking plays singleplayer RTS.
They Are Billions sold like hotcakes

>>717398970
there's actually only about 3-4 main genres that comprise 85% of all games released today. The remaining 15% is comprised of these "unlimited" genres you speak of. Unfortunately a big chunk of those releases are pixelslop shovelware. I'd estimate 1 out of evey 10 to 15 indie games are even worth buying.

Cataclismo was kinda fun for a bit. I lost interest once my brain internalised that the game will only last a predetermined number of minutes, so I won't be able to build stuff the way I want for as long as I want, and you need to artistically manage resource collection immediately, as the number of seconds you can do it for is limited. Good idea though, combining rts and minecraft.

>>717407732
>artistically
Autistically*

>>717406168
>There are good RTS games being made but they die quickly any
Give me a good one

>>717401169
>Age of Empires
>Empire Earth
>Age of Mythology
>Command & Conquer
>Total Annihilation
>Dawn of War

When I was 10 I used to fight my dad in Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds (AoE Star Wars) and would whine like a little bitch when he was winning. I truly was a fucking faggot.

>>717398650 (OP)
transfer the entire department that deals with multiplayer to the development of a cool campaign and cooperative modes.

>>717398650 (OP)

>>717399960
>>smart pathfinding
SC2 already solved that. Go play it.
>>no pointless APM
The simple fact you are screaming about APM despite "no being into the genre" mean it's already unsolvable. Any button press you will brand as "pointless APM".
>>singleplayer that actually teaches how PvP is played
Literally not a single vidya genre actually does this.
You are just being a pussy who doesn't want to learn because RTS is supposed to be "the smart boy game" and you can't handle losing your first few matches like you would with any other genre.
>>the meta build order every time
Same remark as the APM one. The simple fact you are screaming about "meta build order" despite "no being into the genre" mean you have a completely retarded view of the genre and that it's pointless for any dev to cater to you.
>>should be reflected on their 3d model
Probably the only non room-temperature-IQ demand in the list.

Fucking seriously, like all "I would get into the genre if" post I see in those thread it's all shit that RTS already do, or shit that was only ever in your head.
Go play some actual fucking RTS to see what's the genre *actually* is, instead of staying stuck on that one article you read about gooks playing Brood War 20 years ago.

>>717409375
>>>should be reflected on their 3d model
nta but some games do that and it's pretty cool, i'd also argue tactically important. eg. SC2's marines get a shield when Combat Shield upgrade is researched, same with roaches, zerglings, banshees, some buildings obviously.

>>717409375
You can't deny that everyone clickclickclicking like a spastic looks stupid. It reminds me of that fencing guy who bunnyhops like an idiot and wins, it's a silly looking meta. It's no wonder the genre is left for dead

>>717409375
Nta, but i have never played an RTS multilayer because it's the antithesis of what I like about RTSs. What I enjoy is building bases, having units fights, getting different strategies to work even if they are suboptimal as long as they are "aesthetically" pleasing to me, getting up on the tech tree, playing for more than 10min. Multilayer feels like it always boiled down to executing a premade set of commands as fast as possible, rather than actually strategising, kind of like a MOBA.
I mostly play grand strategies these days, since I can't remember the last RTS that had a worthwhile single player. I reply WC3 from time to time (non reforged).

>>717409375
I play RTS and he's right.

>>717409840
>You can't deny that everyone clickclickclicking like a spastic looks stupid.
who cares? look at what's happening on the screen, the fuck you're looking at dudes playing games for

>>717398650 (OP)
I've had a long hard think. Considering what I spent 90% of my time doing from stracraft 1 until today and had to confront something about myself.

It's all about the custom games. The tower defense, the desert strikes, the survival maps, the zombie hord maps, the ability arenas, the cats VS mice, the traitor games. Ect.ect ect

>>717398650 (OP)
Remove worker units. Automate resource collection as much as possible.

>>717410883
Yall remember dark deeds? I remember dark deeds.

>>717398650 (OP)
Rounds are too long and repetitive. It fundamentally cannot be fixed. It's easily the dumbest multiplayer genre.

>>717410987
>It fundamentally cannot be fixed
It can be fixed devs would just need to be creative and innovate.

Like let people build units and buildings faster, make it more like Speed Chess.

>>717410987
>>717411037
t. zoomers

starcraft 2 completely annihilated this genre and undid all the good that wacraft 3 did

>>717411108
Nope. Try again Blizzshill.

Every day same fucking trash posting
Blizzard rts games died because of blizzard not because of the genre. Kill yourself op

>>717410057
No you don't and no he isn't.

>>717411117
>starcraft 2 completely annihilated this genre and undid all the good that wacraft 3 did
SC2 did damage because all the competition shit the bed even worse. Being the only big guy in town scared all the smaller devs who would rather do something else like a MOBA, Tower Defense or a Survival Craft. Meanwhile SC2 was a fossil that dominated the RTS scene, but couldn't attract new players.

>>717411037
>It can be fixed devs would just need to be creative and innovate
Nah, there's no way to fix it without fundamentally altering it. You can't make RTS as complex as like Chess or Shogi but be a real time game with over 15 minure long rounds. After you master the fundamentals of a competive RTS what really is there? Like let's say you've got it down that all the knowledge checks and micro managing are second nature. What's left? I don't think the underlying aspects of strategy are particularly deep or gratifying. Literally everything about it is a bad format, if you tug at one loose string the whole thing falls apart.

There's nothing to discuss here. This is a bad and boring thread.

>>717409840
>nooo it looks silly when they move their mouse and click a lot!!!
They also move their heads and move their eyes while playing!
Sometimes they might even change facial expressions while playing!

You fags come up with the dumbest excuses to hate games you've never played.

>>717411463
Your brain is completely square and cannot grasp what an innovation is. Like the first thing you should rethink is stuff like the knowledge checks and the micro managing, and it's the entire reason why MOBAs became so popular, they don't filter people based on that shit.

>>717411624
>it's the entire reason why MOBAs became so popular
Those are shit for the same reasons I have already described. They literally repeated the same exact problems.

>>717411463
Also, Rocket League rounds last like 5-10 minutes and the skill ceiling is basically infinite.

>>717411669
>They literally repeated the same exact problems
No they didn't. They created new problems, but the games are still way more popular than any RTS.

>>717411689
No it isn't.

>>717411689
Rounds are sets in rocket league. An actual rocket league round (scoring and having the game state reset) takes about a whopping 9 seconds.

>>717400810
I always root for the Zerg no matter what

>>717411742
>No it isn't.
The nature of the game mandates it and you don't even have to check the fact that the skill ceiling is constantly being raised in the competitive scene.

>>717411854
That's true for any game.

>>717411738
>They created new problems
No it's the same exact problems
>rounds are way too long
>extremely repetitive
>every one who plays them is angry all the time because there is no actual fun or gratifying part
They are the same thing, it's just an incredibly shallow and masochistic genre.

>>717411869
That's not true, games vary in complexity quite a bit. Some games are already solved.

>>717411923
>>rounds are way too long
Maybe you have OCD, i prefer long games over repetitive bursts of 15min games

>>717411923
>rounds are way too long
Rounds in League were shortened quite a bit to the point games are already decided around the 20 minute mark.
>extremely repetitive
Play a different champion/lane.
>every one who plays them is angry all the time because there is no actual fun or gratifying part
Classic RTS games were fun, maybe you are the problem.

>>717411998
>i prefer long games over repetitive bursts of 15min games
Play shogi or go then, don't play a game where 14 minutes of the 15 minute round is doing the same exact thing you did last round. MOBAs are exactly the same in this regard. Even competitive speedrunning offers more variety.

Are singleplayer campaigns of Starcraft and Warcraft 3 good? I have never played a RTS game before

>>717412030
>Classic RTS games were fun
Where's the fun part? There is no fun.

>>717412165
You don't play MOBAs since otherwise you know champion picks lead to a whole different experience each time.

>>717412165
But i don't play shitty adhd games that repeat every 15min, I play games i can play rounds for hours.

>>717412181
There is not a single good single player RTS. It's like the people who pretend playing arcade mode in fighting games is good.

>>717412181
>Are singleplayer campaigns of Starcraft and Warcraft 3 good?
Yes. Also try Age of Empires 2.

>>717412181
Yes, I still replay them from tim3 to time

>>717412228
If you're defending MOBAs you've already lost big time. There's no reason for me to engage with someone like that.

>>717412215
>Where's the fun part?
Building a big base and sending an army against enemy armies and bases. Trying different strategies to see what works.

>>717412315
>Building a big base and sending an army against enemy armies and bases
Okay, so you don't actually play the games, got it.

>>717412305
>doesn't even play MOBAs
>pretends to know jackshit about the subject

>>717412349
Embarassing dude.

>>717412345
I mostly played the Age of Empires, StarCraft and Warcraft games back in the day. Also tried Empire Earth but it was overtly convoluted. Supreme Commander was the last big fun one.
>JRPG image
Yikes.

>watch new stormgate footage
>all the out-of-level dialogue is presented VN-style, with a still image of the speaker and a text box
>said images look AI generated and are extremely unsettling in the in-level animated unit portraits
>voice acting is stilted and amateurish, sounds like random women off twitter
>story, characters, and worldbuilding are as generic as it gets
>cannot manually save your game
Is it really THAT hard to make an RTS?

>>717412384
Kill yourself.

>>717412394
>back in the day
Play them now, online, competitively, and not in the capacity of a naive 8 year old, and see how that goes. You are wasting my time now.

whats an rts where people do 16v16s normally or has a good server browser where people do this openly and freely

i used to play a game called trash and there would be crazy like 6v6v6v6

>>717412414
No. The problem is that Stormgate was made by the same people that killed Starcraft and the RTS genre in general.

>>717412426
>competitively
Are you retarded? The peak of popularity for RTS was Starcraft custom game modes and semi-casual play of Age of Empires. Only gooks turned it into an esport and no one else cared about that until way later.

>>717412505
>The peak of popularity for RTS was Starcraft custom game modes and semi-casual play of Age of Empires
Why do these retard posts always go back to some decrepit slav nostalgic for dicking around as a 5 year old? Go boot up kidpix and stop making awful threads

>>717412557
You are the literally the palpitating cancer that killed the RTS genre bruh.

>>717412181
WC3 is alright. But in Starcraft basically every mission is just about taking as long as you want to make a huge army to stomp the AI with, which gets boring fast

>>717412587
Starcraft campaigns are just a big long tutorial, it isn't until Brood War that there is some actual challenge, and that's only for new RTS players.

>>717411413
Yes I do and yes he is.

>>717407536
how's your game coming along? got the artwork done yet?

>>717412557
I still do that now though. No one cares about your exports cancer.

>>717412583
No, people who don't actually want to play video games are what killed them. And you definitely don't want to play video games. Nothing is stopping you from still playing those games and those custom game modes. I am certain you are the same retard that constantly praises CSS but doesn't play it. They are simply uninteresting and shallow novelties, which is why they are dead. If you don't care about a video game enough to push its mechanics to the limit and get good at it, then you don't really like it. If the second you start really thinking about how a game works it becomes bad, well then obviously that game is awful, therefore, people who shy away from competition and effort have no interest in video games

>>717411938
There's no such thing as "solved".

Genre is great.
Gookclicking is shit.

it has been fixed decades ago
and after multiple failed attempts to fix it further, they realized that they already achieved perfection, and instead remastered it
and with the remaster, aoe2 had become the undisputed king of rts. no, not king. god.

>>717412804
That's not how any of that works.

easy, just remove all keyboard shortcuts

mouse only

>>717412456
TaB killed RTS?

>>717405016
>Nobody fucking plays singleplayer RTS.
Hahahahahahahahahahaha.

>>717411624
MOBAs got popular because of the narrowed scope and because you micromanaged fewer units to a greater degree. They have knowledge checks far worse than most RTS.

>>717398650 (OP)
>How do we fix this awful genre?

Make it turn based,

>>717412867
That's exactly how it works. Mastery is the endgame of interest. You aren't interested in games, youre interested in being 8 years old again. Last (You).

>>717412945
Incorrect on every point.

>>717412804
You are a living cancer that merely resembles a human.

>>717412804
>gacha image
YIKES

>>717412819
>There's no such thing as "solved".

>>717411669
I implore you to play the GOOD MOBA
Literally fixes all the issues with the genre and too old/abandoned to be wokeified or ruined by the devs

>>717412938
The knowledge checks in something like League and HOTS are fairly intuitive. It's not something overly annoying like build orders.

>>717413224
>GOOD MOBA
No such thing, by definition.

>>717411689
Rocket League is simpler Bombing Run.

>people who don't like any aspect of a genre insist the genre should remove all of the things that make it what it is and become a completely different genre instead
straight from the normalfag textbook
just accept the genre isn't for you, ya pinheads

>>717413206
>yeah bro there was no point in trying to win because the outcome was solved bro

>>717412850
have they added attack move to this game yet?

>>717398650 (OP)
you can't even fix your triple chin faggot, how do you want to fix gaming industry?
by posting frogs?

>>717413253
Gooderest MOBA*

>>717412804
Counter-Strike has both fun custom game modes and a strong competitive scene. It's the shining example of what a popular online game should be.

>>717412970
>none of the listed points have anything to do with Real Time or Strategy
you could get the things you wanted from a bunch of different genres. You don't even understand what you want
>>717412945 is right, you just want to feel like you did when you were a child

>>717405016
>>Nobody fucking plays singleplayer RTS.
I just played They Are Billions, that's a great single player game.

>>717401094
The ones I truly love are Tiberian Sun, Red Alert 2 and Battle Realms. I hated early C&C Im surprised why they still havent remade the 2nd of the series.

>>717413317
>You don't even understand what you want
Nice corpo line, too bad it never worked out for you.

>>717413248
HotS, yes, but League no. Too many items to learn, and this is after the game got simplified to shit. DotA especially no, creep pulling and stacking and denying are extremely dumb and unintuitive.

>>717412882
It was meant to be the counter example but forgot to mention that.

>>717412804
uncomfortable truth for the casuals on /v/

>>717410021
So you're not interested in actual strategy, just heccin heccin battles with jumpscare-free strategy room where wholesome pupperino old men sit around palm-tenting like Gendo.

get over yourself

The only important factor that determines how good in RTS is is how fun the single player campaign is. The online multiplayer is pretty much irrelevant and just a tiny insignificant minigame on the side.

Ever since Starcraft II was released, and a little bit before that, developers developed the WRONG idea that they should focus mostly on the online multiplayer and half-ass the real game.

>>717412970
which rts do I play for this?

my wife for hire

>>717413253
You wouldn't know tho.

>>717410987
>>717411037
But casuals most often complain about evul rushers who prevent them from playing simcity with guns for 3 hours?

>>717413357
Stop samefagging, moetard.

>>717413318
>>717413352
TaB isn't RTS thoughever.

>>717407536
>I'd estimate 1 out of evey 10 to 15 indie games are even worth buying.
I think this is an overly optimistic estimation. I'd say 1 out of 100 to 150.

>>717413264
The genre is literally dead and buried sister. All its successors are literally different genres (MOBAs, survival craft).

>>717413224
HotS could have been amazing if it wasn't made by Blizzard. Who in their right mind thought deleting all chat and sharing character levels as a group was a good idea?

>>717400591
AoE2 minus build orders

>>717413270
Eh,

>>717413440
Sharing character levels was a great decision thougheverbeit.

>>717413318
They Are Billions is 15 years old.

>>717407536
>I'd estimate 1 out of evey 10 to 15 indie games are even worth buying.
Much higher rate than AAA.

>>717413465
>game starts
>my opponent has picked faggasia as his race
>I'm playing nigrosius and thus my chances of winning has already dropped by 0.2%
>gg
>I'll get you next time..

>>717413351
>Too many items to learn
You just follow a build order and change if the situation really demands it.

>>717398650 (OP)
New games should lean more toward either micro based or macro based gameplay. Trying to do both not only makes the experience feel stale, but also gives off a vibe of "Oh, yet another SC clone" or "Oh, yet another AoE clone."
There's a reason why the original dota map was so successful, in dota, you control only 1 to 12 units in intense battles, and if you fail, you can just respawn and try again. That was actually a pretty novel idea at the time. Also, since units are respawnable and there's no need to worry about base building, the focus shifts away from APM and more in decision making

>>717413501
It came out in 2019.

>>717413392
>playing simcity with guns for 3 hours?
You could make a new RTS based on that idea also. Like Civilization but with more action and laser guns.

>>717413351
>extremely dumb and unintuitive
low iq problem

>>717413264
I DO like aspects of the genre. I also find that people pretend aspects of certain games are core to the RTS genre when they're not and get butthurt when I say they're not necessary.

>>717413406
>TaB isn't RTS

>>717413598
Which parts are not necessary?

>>717413440
sharing character levels massively improves the social dynamics of the game. One of the worst things about most RTS is people sperging out/getting pissed/throwing because they're mad and sharing levels pretty much singlehandedly solves this issue. No matter what someone is doing or where they are, they can always arguably be helping the whole team at least a little, and you don't end up with somebody being underleveled and giving up or turning into a feeder, and it discourages the extremely gay behavior of somebody just disappearing from the team for the first chunk of the game as they just mindlessly jungle. It resolves a lot of little issues like this.

>>717413570
>in dota, you control only 1 to 12 units in intense battles, and if you fail, you can just respawn and try again. That was actually a pretty novel idea at the time

>>717413592
No, low IQ would be if I couldn't learn how to do it.

>>717413621
Would you remind us what "RTS" actually means.

>>717413629
Buildings bases and units.
SP campaign.

>>717413640
You can't.

>>717413657
Real Time Tactics.

>>717398650 (OP)
make it much slower paced. Less complex HUD. easy for new plays but long to master. Think of warcraft 3

>>717413678

>>717413629
Economics that need you to babysit the spending of every resource
Being unable to queue units without the resources already in stock
Limited unit action queueing
Clamped zoom
Dumbshit unit AI

>>717399960
>no pointless APM
n00b ALERT n00b ALERT

>>717413351
League has gotten progressively worse as time goes on. Seasons 1-5 were great, but ever since the development has hyper focused on pleasing the top .1% of meta players, removing "fun" or "silly" mechanics for boring ones during champion reworks, they removed seasonal maps for over a decade, they removed teambuilder and forced all random queues where you want to pick a character to be draft even if it's unranked, they added loot boxes, they added battle passes, kernel level anticheats and they've generally become a pc mobile game.

LoL 13 years ago is incomparably better than today, and that's just sad.

>>717413792
>Seasons 1-5 were great
No they weren't.

>>717412414
if you are a scam artist. Look at
>Tempest Rising
>Godsworn
>Blackchain
>Heart of Muriet
>The Scouring
>9-bit armies

it's hard if you set out to make a noname ip compfag rts gaas.
Or trying to make a full package with campaigns, scenarios, map maker, mods, skirmish (bots), 3+ factions, social features, replay/specation features, extensive hotkey customizations etc.

YOU MUST CONSTRUCT ADDITIONAL PYLONS

>>717398650 (OP)
Go back to the 2000's. Mass abortions for zoomie babies. MOBA's would never have become popular.

>>717407349
lol that was nearly a decade ago

>>717413910
HERE COMES THE GANTRITHOR

>>717412181
be sure to not install WC3 reforged. since you have the disk, there should be a way not to be forced to upgrade but idk the specifics since i havent played WC3.

>>717398650 (OP)
Make it FUN first, competitive last. FUN is what gets people to buy the game. It's what opens the floodgates to a successful game whose playerbase WANTS to continue playing, keeps the non-competitive side populated, and fuels the competitive scene with rising stars that otherwise might never shine.

Make the story make sense, make the single-player campaign fun, make the units at least likeable with their own quirks character-wise and gameplay-wise, and make the game easy to access, and difficult to master. Let the sweaties figure out optimal strats and such, but let the gameplay speak for itself to the average player. It's what made Starcraft 1 a powerhouse, Command and Conquer (up to Generals) such a great franchise, and what made other similar games like Wargame: Airland Battle, Supreme Commander, Sins of a Solar Empire, SW: Empire at War, (and if we're being generous here) Star Trek: Armada fun to play in an already saturated environment.

COMPETITIVE play was the afterthought. GAMEPLAY was the focus.

Has there been a modern take on the Urban Assault formula yet?

The basic truths of RTS one has to understand in order to create one that works:
1) The average player is here for the story. Either deliver a campaign worth playing or you're stuck hunting for the RTS fanbase which is relatively small. Either be extremely fucking confident in your setting and writing team or partner with an existing IP such as Warhammer.
2) After playing the campaign the average player will want to mess around in custom scenarios and coop, then team vs team games.
3) Never ever chase esports. If the game is good enough, players will form leagues on their own, at that point your job is to provide them support and esports will happen on its own
4) The APM issue. There is no way around it - in a game where you have just a few dozen units and each unit benefits from the player's personal attention, the player with more attention to spare is at an advantage. Retards don't understand that APM isn't about clicking, it's actually about attention. Complaints about it should largely be ignored.

That's the basics. If you want your game to be good it has to understand these points.
The most successful RTS to come out recently was Broken Arrow, which hits the first point by targeting the military enthusiast community (Tarkov, Arma, Wargame etc.), the second by making the default mode 5v5, the third is again correct there is no officially official tournament or whatever the fuck, people just play the game and as for the fourth, anyone who knows how to play the game talks a lot about minimizing the "micro tax" by mixing cheap and expensive units correctly to hit the level of micromanagement they can personally handle.
And that's a relatively low budget game with a relatively modest success - a properly developed setting would be way more popular. Like a Warhammer 40K version of Broken Arrow would probably be 10 times as popular.

>>717413998
Now's the perfect time to rip it off!

>>717414156
Nah, you failed to understand why people complain about APM. A strategy game where physical skill matters more than anyone is willing to admit is always going to rub some people the wrong way. There is nothing inherent to the genre that means it has to scale up to Korean Starcraft levels or that APM cannot have diminishing returns after a certain point.

just make singleplayer games and ignore multiplayer shit

>>717413808
If a private server of any of those seasons existed I'd still be playing.

>>717414156
>in a game where you have just a few dozen units
That's an assumption.
>and each unit benefits from the player's personal attention
That's also an assumption. The degree to which they benefit from micromanagement isn't set in stone.

>>717414156
>1) The average player is here for the story
No average players still want good gameplay which RTS games have always failed to deliver on

since half the thread doesnt even know what a rts game is, i think rimworld is the greatest rts ever made. the genre clearly doesnt need saving. its doing great.

>>717414749
Rimworld is real time with pause though.

>>717414426
you didn't read the post you replied to

>>717413290
attack move is in the game since HD

>>717412440
>717412440
anyone?rpxp2

>>717414817
I did and his point was wrong.

>>717405349
that's just like, your opinion, man

>>717413634
What are you even crying about?

Redpill me on how good the Dawn of War and Total War Warhammer RTS are please

>>717413318
campaign kind of blows ass honestly

>>717413358
There is literally no strategy involved in looking up a build order guide and repeating it 70 times.

>>717415278
total war warhammer is real time tactics, core gameplay is similar to other total war games. The difference is that it has less focus on faction management and more on RPG elements, with hero units, monsters and magic. The map is pretty huge and you are incentivized to fight alot. Pretty fun
You can get into it easily without playing any previous total war games (most of older total war tactics and strategies wont even work here anyway)

For Dawn of War, every game in the franchise has different gameplay. Hard to say but the first game offers traditional vanilla RTS gameplay, while the second game is more tactical, smaller scale with company of heroes gameplay. Nobody plays the third game so ignore it

>>717413374
bald == red alert 2

>>717412970
trvke

>>717398650 (OP)
Starcraft fucking killed it with apm shit and muh esports

>>717413374
Tib Sun

>>717398650 (OP)
Go all in singleplayer.
Lobotomize all compfags as punishment for existing.
There.

A game called AI War came out like 20 fucking years ago developed by one or two dudes and it solved the RTS genre. Nothing ever will or ever has gotten it so right, including AI War's sqeuel

>>717414791
So not real time?

My knowledge of starcraft is playing 8 person ffa with cpus on big game hunters, and custom games

>>717412181
Just play AoE2 and 3 for starters. Hopefully not a gay version of 3 though, the new one is quite literally engineered to remove the soul from it.

>>717414156
1/ kinda disagree. The campaign is more of an advertisement and served as tutorial. Starcraft BW blew up and many people didnt play it for the story. Starcraft 2 came out and it's the same but worse, people only joined for the multiplayer, esport. Literally koreans playing the game dont even know the story. It's the same for popular games that are known for multiplayers like COD, the majority would prefer to go into multiplayers, be it casual or competitive
2/That's true for those want to build a community if they can, like warcraft 3 custom maps and shit
3/agree. But then they would have to consider the skill ceiling in game design, something to be both for casual and sweaty niggas. Too basic and it's just nolstagia bait eye candy RTS, Too hardcore and it would be like Gate of hell ost front with too many shit to manage. Both would kill the playerbase
4/unavoidable yeah if players can optimize the fun out of the game. but like said above, the game should be designed to accomodate both the sweaty and casual gamers

Company of heroes 2 hits the sweet spot i think. coh3 flopped so it's fucked however

>>717409840
>You can't deny that everyone clickclickclicking like a spastic looks stupid
Yes I can, because every other fucking game genre does it, and is even far worse.

Fighting games requiring quick and complex inputs: fine.
Shooters requiring quick and precise mouse inputs: fine.
Platformers requiring to keep pressing a direction arrow plus some other inputs: fine.
RTS requiring to click slightly above geriatric pace: OMG, tryhard genre, bad design

People have won international RTS competition with sub-60 APM. That's one input per second.
Grab a metronome and go play your favorite non-RTS game while only allowing yourself one key/click/etc per second. See how comically fucking slow it is.
And that's the *tryhard* pace, you don't need it for casual PvP nor single-player.
Unless you only ever played moviegames, you *already* have more than enough APM to handle RTS. Whatever problem you have with RTS it is *not* APM.

>b-but my gook at 240APM!
3/4 of that is spamclicking/spamchecking. Count the inputs that actually did something beyond bumping the counter and even the gooks fall down to 50-80.
Grubby is a specialist at that, regularly hitting near 400 APM in the beginning despite having only built two shacks and having no soldier yet.

>>717416293
>Yes I can, because every other fucking game genre does it, and is even far worse.
Like rpgs or strategy games?

>>717416293
False equivalence. None of those games are controlled the same way.

>>717412889
>6% I don't play RTS
Hopefully this option just automatically throws out the rest of their results.

>>717416293
>People have won international RTS competition with sub-60 APM. That's one input per second.
Doesn't take into account camera panning or mouse movement.

>>717416458
Half the thread is people admitting they don't play RTS and making demands about how RTS should be according to them and their total lack of actual knowledge tho.
If you invalid that survey because of this, you also invalidate pretty much all criticism toward RTS.

>>717416293
Actually I complain about anime fighters, Marvel, and Quake because I hate how input heavy they are. Strafe jumping can go fuck itself.

>>717416583
Of course I'm not going to invalidate the 94% of the results that are relevant.

>>717416293
what's spamchecking?

>>717416583
bro if you want people to play rts you have to pull in people who do not already play rts

>>717416528
>moving my mouse is an excruciating effort and it should be accounted in my stats
OK, I'm downgrading my "geriatric" comment to "tetraplegic blinking all his inputs one by one". Clearly there are no limits to how bad /v/ can be at games.

>>717398650 (OP)
Stop pretending multiplayer versus matters and focus on the campaign and multiplayer customs where 99% of the actual players spend their time.

>>717409375
Thank god somebody in this thread has brain cells

>>717416725
You missed the point. There are more actions being performed than APM indicates. Also yes, mouse clicks per minute and mouse pixels traveled per minute are trackable stats.

>>717416689
Circling through your base/army/etc, despite you having done so twice in the last second and that grunt's training progress probably only have gone from 52% to 53% in-between. "Just in case" something is going wrong.
Lots of RTS have key shortcuts specially for that, and if not Control Groups can generally do the trick.

>>717398650 (OP)
return to something like Ground Control and make the gameplay more about actual unit tactics and less about "economy"

>>717416293
No actually my problem with RTS is APM. That's why I play BAR and not whatever the fuck you're expecting me to play.

>>717416914
Battle Aces was trying this and I thought it had potential but the monetization models they insisted on killed any chances it had.

>>717416956
>BAR
With the amount of people shilling this game on /v/, I would have expected it to have more reviews.

>>717398650 (OP)
You can't. A RTS requires a lot of memorization, some mechanical skills and above all the ability to hold yourself accountable for your failures.
New generation thinks it's too hard to learn all the maps, all the build orders, the match ups, the damage types and above all they can't handle 1v1s which is also why arena shooters are fucking dead and will stay dead.
They'd rather play a moba with a low skill floor and low skill ceiling, very few things to memorize and whenever something goes wrong they will blame their jungler for their fuck ups.

>>717412970
/thread

>be scrubanon who can only think about "muh apm"
>send an army to attack the opponents base
>have the army in a control group which is proof that I'm an elite gamer and deserve to win FUCK FORCED 50-50
>suddenly remember I should make more workers and queue more units in production (I usually forget about it lol but it's really just such a small thing and this game is about strategy, not about clicking production)
>click minimap to get back to my own base
>choose main building with mouse and click the create worker button hotkey (again, I'm an elite gamer)
>choose a barracks and click the spacespearmarine button twice
>click the army hotkey twice to get back
That was 7 (effective) actions. It probably took you about 3 seconds. Your (e)APM was 140 there.
Now consider having that main building and those unit production buildings also set in control groups. You could choose them and queue those units without ever leaving your main army and do it all under a second unless you're geriatric.
That would mean you only have to take 5 (effective) actions and you could do it in just one second, meaning your (e)APM was 300. And you could react to any enemy attacking your army much easier.

The gold league mind simply cannot comprehend that this kind of stuff matters a lot more than unit micro.

>>717417348
>The gold league
What is this sister talking about and what does it have to do with RTS?

>>717398650 (OP)
the genre as in fast paced RTS? SC remastered and SC2 has that on lockdown - completely. Every attempt so far after those games is total dogshit.

>>717417348
so you're admitting RTS gameplay is just APM? I don't get your post.

>>717417348
Or
Or or
I could play a game where I do not have to babysit production and the UI for switching back to production doesn't need me to take my attention off of anything.

>>717406415
It needs to be enforced.
Player actions costing points that regenerate periodically is also an innovation waiting to happen.

>>717414639
>That's an assumption.
Starcraft easily goes up to 50+ units. Even on the lower end such as Warcraft you're still handling 20 in the late game. Broken Arrow is on the lowest end of this, where you could have maybe 10-20 in the end stages.
If your RTS doesn't go above 10 it's probably some kind of hero battler rather than an RTS.
>That's also an assumption. The degree to which they benefit from micromanagement isn't set in stone.
Oh hey, you know the RTS where they benefit from your attention the least? It's Starcraft 2, because the game is so automated that you can just que up units for the designated racial blob comp and a-move your way to at least platinum. On the higher end of gameplay you've got people furiously splitting their lings or marines while dropping your base at 350 apm, but the game deliberately has baby mode strategies for newfags and gay babies.
You get any lower micro benefit than that and you're not playing RTS anymore, you are playing Mechabellum.

>>717417653
You have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.

>>717417653
>Oh hey, you know the RTS where they benefit from your attention the least? It's Starcraft 2,
No, it's not.

>>717416293
>Whatever problem you have with RTS it is *not* APM
You're right, and my issue with RTS games is having to memorize long sequences of inputs that you have to execute in a specific order. I don’t really mind doing them quickly, which is what RTS games reward, and that’s also where the whole "RTS needs high APM" idea comes from, by the way

>>717417496
I showed you a way to easily increase your APM while also leaving you with more time to react to other things. The point is high APM comes from this kind of stuff. The main way to "lose" APM is by not having the most important units and buildings easily accessible via one click and having to drag your mouse around to get to it.
>>717417558
M7y the production and research in an RTS is what makes it a "strategy" game. You clearly want to play a tactics game instead.

>>717416293
>>717416416
No witty retordtdt?

>>717417806
I will never play your game no matter how much you shill it.

>>717417702
>in order to defeat your argument, I will post a game where you manage hundreds of units and the game lets you dodge individual shots with said units
You better be trolling because otherwise you're fucking retarded. Supcom lets you automate unit construction and ferrying, actual units demand constant micro right from the early game because the most successful strategy is to bring your commander to the front and babysit him until T2 units come out at which point you have to run back, hide the commander and micro your tanks., bots and planes

>>717417840
I am begging you, familiarize yourself with more games. Unit production does not have to be, and has been something else many many times, one button press for one unit in a barracks, pool and spend resources, fixed time scale for output. Research isn't even a given for RTS.

>>717398650 (OP)
You don't and let it die.
The only fun part was Arcade.

>>717406981
>Do you deny that SC2 intentionally added larval injection as an APM tax?
That was actually for balance reasons, otherwise Zerg production would have been exceptionally easy compared to Protoss and Terran. Zerg has one production building, and larvae can be morphed late without losing any production time (so long as you don't accumulate three). Without inject, Zerg would absolutely stomp opponents in low level play. The only alternative would have been to change larvae or hatcheries, which are a core part of Zerg's identity, or to remove multi-building select.

I don't think inject is a great solution and would prefer they have found a different way to make Zerg macro harder, but it's not just a random APM tax for no reason.

You can't fix RTS games because they're multitasking games at heart and you don't like it when you get challenged by that.
It's completely irrelevant that the pros have 120 APM on average when very decent players have high ratings with barely 50.
>I only want to control a small squad of units
Not a RTS anymore but real time tactics like Desperados

>>717418149
If someone's against the idea of an APM tax to begin with, why would they care about the reasons it was added?

>>717417558
That's sc2

>>717418408
No it isn't, are you high?

>>717398650 (OP)
Remove brainless deathballing. Projectiles should be 3D modeled and capable of hitting friendly units if they are in the way. If you stack up all your infantry into a ball and let all of them start shooting in one direction, you deserve to have them kill each other.

>>717418030
You are way overestimating the impact of micro in SupCom. It's also a lot easier TO micromanage units in SupCom.

>>717418454
Except yes it is, SC2 has some of the most automated production you can get and still be an RTS. Zerg and Terran can do it without moving their camera at all and Protoss has to look at their warp in point.
Terran can just set their rally point, hit their barracks hotkey and hold AAAAAA, while Zerg can even rally units after they've been set to hatch. And you can shift que injects through the minimap 20 at a time.
>but I want a game with no production
You don't want an RTS. More importantly you're a humongous faggot.

>>717417496
>WTF I HAVE TO CLICK BUTTONS IN THIS GAME!?!?
The APMlet truly is a fascinating creature.

>>717418736
In what parallel reality?
>SC2
I build roach hydra or marine marauder medivac and a-move them at the enemy.
>Supcom
What's that Billy? You were moving your tanks around and forgot to move your commander after he was spotted by a scout plane? Enjoy the nukes and T3 artillery heading his way.
And that's before we talk about how you'll get run over if you don't start the game by seding your com bot to the front line or how you have to manually dodge and aim artillery for maximum effect.

>>717418872
Literally all of that is manual production, not automated. That's what you don't understand.

>>717419089
do people not even pros know you can let your acu patrol forever.
btw. you are not getting sniped by t3 artillery or nukes unless your acu is horribly misplaced or ignored for minutes. A couple of bombers or tactical rockets can however

>>717418872
>ctrl+click unit 1
>shift-click unit 2
>click unit 3 2 times
>click unit 4 once
>click repeat
Now the factory infinitely repeats a 20:5:2:1 ratio, forever.
>or click quota
Now the factory will automatically build any one of those units if they dip under the listed number.
>can give complex orders to units spawning from the factory
>factory has a button to select it if I decline to use a control group for it

I only need to touch a factory if I need to change the units being built, alter the ratios, or change the orders being given out. Starcraft 2 is not fucking automated.

>>717398650 (OP)
Can't. I thought Tempest Rising was going to be the big comeback, but I got bored with it before even getting through the first campaign. And honestly I only play starcraft 2 wings of liberty now for rts.

>>717419419
Or someone goes nothin' personnel and teleports behind you with a giant laser.
There's a section of the midgame where you can park him in a puddle and forget about it for a few minutes, but the early game is dominated by front line command bot micro while the late game can be dominated by command unit assasination micro if one player goes for that strategy.
And again for front line battles managing lines of sight so your tanks don't get snagged on some stupid hill and waste their time shooting into the ground while manualy aiming/dodging arty and bombers.
The better player will ultimately be the one who can do all of it at the same time and we're back to more APM = better.

There is no rts with good and deep single player gameplay

>>717398650 (OP)
Just make lengthy campaigns with interesting stories. You don't even need to be the most innovative or hyperbalanced nonsense on the planet. It's the same with RPGs, people don't only play the bestest one, after they finish it, they'll go look for another with a new story even If it's less good. But everyone wants to have the live service big hit that will last forever.
I remember playing Age of Mythology and liking the story, and yet, to this day, I still don't even know if that even had a multiplayer.

>>717398650 (OP)
Does the coloring of the damaged areas do anything besides showing you your building/unit is damaged? Like red areas take more damage?

>>717420563
No it's just there for fun.

>>717398650 (OP)
What's the point, it peaked over 20 years ago already

>>717405016
>Warcraft 3
>I've exclusively played it's singleplayer campaign, games vs bots and casual multiplayer in custom maps for the past 20 years
Not everyone fell for the "muh competitive multiplayer" meme.

I have irl known only a single person that plays RTSs competitively, and he's in an open relationship with a girl that keeps flirting with me.

>>717418872
Dumbass, if I really really really wanted to, I could queue up 15 full minutes of units and buildings in a game that came out before Starcraft 1. Do you really not understand how that's different? Do you not understand why maybe I might not be accepting of having to constantly manually handle econ?

>>717421137
>competitive RTS player
>letting everyone expand in his natural
He isn't very good.

>>717420441
>Just make lengthy campaigns with interesting stories
That sure doesn't sound like video games

>>717421213
It sounds like what you really want to play is Total War.

>>717398650 (OP)
The genre just got fixed

>>717421323
>long single player games actually aren't games
I don't even want to begin guessing what kind of mental illness you have

>>717421450
No, because I don't like how Total War handles battles or its strategic layer at all. Never have. Grand strategy games handle the worthwhile ideas better. You've internalized shit that's not actually core to RTS as being core to RTS, which is exactly what I said people do earlier.

>>717398650 (OP)
There's nothing wrong with the genre, it's just that it doesn't have any good new games. But it doesn't need them since all the older ones still work just fine.

>>717421691
Yeah, if story is what you care about, you should go to >>>/tv

RTS pvp needs an actual win condition. Seeing people quit out games is gay as fuck.

>>717421942
>>>>/tv
Ah, that mental illness

>>717418181
How a game asks you to multitask and the tools the game gives you to aid in multitasking can make all the difference, is the thing.

>>717421137
HuK?

Pandering to the esports scene killed it. If you want to bring it back, focus on custom maps and good campaigns. It's literally that simple. Tbats why everybody moved to 4x while tryhards switched to MOBA

I wont be goung back to memorizing build orders and APM spam. I just play Crusader Kings now and it's better this way
>BUT AOE2
NU-AOE is literally nothing like old AOE. It has been taken over by ovp fags. Back in my day we used to share custom maps on ancient long dead websites

>>717398970
SAAAAAAAR

>>717412440
Beyond all reason

https://youtu.be/B1a5dkjUq3o?si=rhz9bsheWf-21tdg

4x is RTS but without the APM autism and build order faggotry

>>717425450
>everybody moved to 4x
But 4x is just a casual stepping stone to wargaming

>>717412850
This looks like Sim City in all the best ways. God, AoE2 is a beautiful game, the art style really sells it.

>>717398650 (OP)
single player
pause button that still lets you place buildings and prepare orders

>>717405016
A billion more multiplayer RTS need to flop before you retards will face reality. It's amazing. Troons have a better grasp of what is and isn't true than the PVP autists.

>>717412850
AoE 2 is garbage

>>717427896
Original AOE plus conquerers is the best RTS of all time. Nu-aoe is pvp slop

>>717419759
more apm will always be better, but strategy and efficiency is a way more dominating factor until a certain skill level.
You even explained why, because you can do stupid shit like teleport snipes.
SupCom is too complex that anyone can play without creating openings to abuse.

>>717398650 (OP)
I'm making a really stupid RTS that's kinda target at people who have a problem with existing RTS.
Give me your suggestions to make it appealing to (you).

>>717429692
Not a serious suggestion but have your units lose control when they get into fights. You can still sort of order them around but they're too busy punching and kicking each other to be perfectly micromanaged, so more thought goes into the movement and composition BEFORE the fight begins outside of abusing the shaman patrol bug

>>717429692
Make it 100% autobattle that requires 0 APM, it's the only way to please the modern /v/ audience.

>>717422030
AoE2 has Battle Royale