Thread 717428517

Find a flaw.

tanks can often do more damage than DPSissies

>>717428517 (OP)
no ranged/Area dmg class.

>>717428517 (OP)
I always end up carrying, no matter the class
I'm perfect and always doing the best choices

>>717428598
>t. bad DPS that switched to being the healer's bitch

>>717428828
THAT'S NOT A ROLE THAT'S A RED CLASS THAT WANTS TO FEEL SPECIAL

>>717428517 (OP)
needs at least 9 more dps

>>717428828
AOE should be melee only

The healer inflates the party's health pool which forces encounter design to accommodate making it hard to impossible to do content without a healer at the designated level.
There has to be a better way to manage health other than "fill back up the bar"

>>717428974
correct, and supporter is just a green class
if your healer cant buff its a shit game

>>717428828
It's just gonna end up being a variation of DPS
RPGs get interesting with subroles
>ranged DPS
>support tank
>friendly buffer/enemy debuffer healer
etc

>>717429157
make base health in games very low but give healing an overcharge effect similar to TF2!

>>717428974
Neither is healer but we don't talk about that.

>>717428517 (OP)
I hate when people think healer/support is some female or submissive thing. Bro, if you shit talk me I'll not heal you, just die, gl

>>717428974
>i h8 redmages HFUUUUUUUUUUUU
>>717429061
>>717429248
>uses sleepel to put the female healslut to sleep, debuffs the tank and sword weilder mc,
>changes stands from siren songstress to offensive dragon and uses ultima3 from across half the map away to nuke the entire team before you have even guessed my gender.
>kidnaps the princess/healslut leaving you in critical state with no healer.
Cant reach me now,
Nothing personell kid.

>>717430212
>i h8 redmages HFUUUUUUUUUUUU
Red Mages are pretty shit as healers and damage takers, their actual strength is in Attack not being useless for them. Or if you're playing FF1 and FF11 they're also great buffers, and in any other game they can be power houses from using -ra spells twice

>>717428517 (OP)
DPS is the only fun one.

>>717432498
I disagree. DPS is the most boring, since you have no real responsibility or "oh shit" moment. The most you can do is get aggro by playing like a retard or pull early and fuck everyone over.

>>717428517 (OP)
FTFY

>>717428517 (OP)
It's literally perfect.
Any RPG that deviates from the trinity is worse for it.

>>717432658
This, MMOs used to have at least one class that was a specialized Buffer/Debuffer/CC role

>>717428517 (OP)
Healers are almost always women and women suck ass at playing the game. So when I complain how bad they are, they reply with
>why don't you heal then? :)
Uh yeah great argument. If my bus driver nearly kills me and I tell him to not drink and drive at the same time, I am supposed to get a commercial driver's license for busses before complaining?

God I hate healer sluts.

>>717428517 (OP)
it's boring?

>>717434974
Yet every single time someone tries to make something different, it either fails or loops right back around to the trinity.

>>717428517 (OP)
>find a flaw
Alright. Watch out 4chan. old fag coming through. I GOT THIS


>MMO

>>717428517 (OP)
I found two

>>717428517 (OP)
no dedicated supports with buffs, debuffs, ccs etc

>>717428517 (OP)
It's "support" not "healer". Buffs and debuffs are just as important as healing.

>>717432805
>>717435467
>Buff
Healer
>Debuff
DPS
>CCs
Tank

>>717432805
Splitting support skills across the other three roles is a net positive, in my opinion. Tank, DPS, and Healer all get really braindead unless they have some kind of upkeep to worry about.

>>717429473
>don't heal tank
>raid wipes
nice plan

>>717435547
only bufsf tanks should have are a self-defense buff
only buffs fps should have are a self-damage buff
healers should just heal
supports should have wide range of damage, defense, speed etc etc buffs and debuffs

>>717429473
Throwing a fit and not refusing to do your job because someone was a bit mean to you is peak female behavior, thoughbeit.

>>717428517 (OP)
In PvP a DPS meta is always best but most games devolve into a tank meta or has broken Healing. Healers tend to be over powered for the low effort required. It should be a rock paper sissor of sorts.
>Tanks are tanks with plenty of CC but hardly do any damage
>Healers are squishy but can heal everyone
>DPS are squishy but shit out damage and can kill anyone
They should be balanced. But instead you get shit like:
>Healers are tanky and can shit out heals for everyone and face tank longer than tanks
>Tanks are Tanky and unkillable but are useless outside of high tier raids where they're aggro bots
>Squishy DPS are useless becuase they cant kill healers or tanks alone anyways, so they all swap to tanky DPS
>now you're stuck in a tank meta where nobody dies unless they're out numbered

>>717435946
Why even have tanks or healers at that point if they can't tank or heal enough for it to matter?

>>717428517 (OP)
DPS have no real responsibilities and are effectively replaceable bots in most MMOs
healers are anti-fun in pvp and give people a god complex in pve despite being the easiest role
tanks despite having middling to poor damage have half of the responsibility and none of the draw of other classes so people somehow get anxiety at the thought of playing them enough to invent the term "tankxiety"

>>717429061
Based.
High risks, high rewards.

>>717428517 (OP)
I don't play MMOs but if this was a CRPG I'd definitely want a enchanted. Illusion spell enchanted DPS > tank. Id also want a ranged for their wizards / healers / ranged over the tank as well.

>>717428517 (OP)
There's nothing wrong with the good ol' Trinity.
The flaws emerge from poor design choices, especially if a role or many of the roles are not as fun to use compared to the other(s).

>>717428517 (OP)
Dogshit design
MMOs should lean more on the classic design of "support" classes that deal with the environment
Thieves, disarming traps opening locked chests and doors looting stuff
Alchemists that buff/debuff and help a bit with healing and damage but don't lean on either too much
Wizards doing other stuff outside of damage dealing
That kind of things. Everything is so lame and regurgitated nowadays.

>>717436656
They're ALL replaceable by bots. If you reduce your role to one little thing then a simple bot can do the same. Real RPGs and strategy games have you commanding the entire party or even an entire army yourself. MMOs are for playing make believe as an excuse to hang out with people. No one has any individual responsibility.

>>717428517 (OP)
Aw shit, it's this thread again. You faggots are all wrong. The flaw is DPS.
>Tank supports party
>Healer supports party
>DPS... WHOOPS it's an outlier
The real trinity is tank, heal, control. You're mistaking the core functions of the game with the party dependencies that create meta strategies. We can illustrate meta strategies by looking at a different genre where the trinity actually works. Hero Shooters:
>Tanks hold space and contest objectives, which creates victory points. Tanks are the role that wins the match.
>Healers sustain their team and stall fights, creating time for the team to find better positioning and gain an advantage. Healers are the role that increase ally position.
>DPS pressure the enemy team and hunt for picks that snowball into winning team fights. DPS are the role that decreases opponent position.
In all games, the three meta strategies are to:
>Increase own position
>Decrease enemy position
>Accrue victory points
In an Assfaggots game (LoL, Dota, etc.), you increase position by farming and buying gear, decrease enemy position by hunting for picks (causing the enemy to fall behind on farm, timewalking them essentially), and accrue victory points by pushing lanes. Fog of war, incomplete information and complex hero interactions creates the uncertainty that makes it an engaging game. No one really knows for sure what the right play is at any given moment, so they're always gauging how hard they want to push one of the three meta strategies. Now, MMOs are BORING because the design has decroded so far that two of the meta strategies are trivial:
>Hold aggro, build defense (while doing damage)
>Watch health bars, heal when needed (while doing damage)
The only test is mashing out your 30 button rotation correctly over and over until the boss falls over. There is no reason to ever stop accruing victory points. Modern MMOs are fundamentally broken in a way that old MMOs are not.

>>717428517 (OP)
The flaw is that humans want to be special and do the big number.

You end up with like 70% DPS players, 20% Tanks and 10% healers. This inflates times to form parties, and further creates weird fucking player profiles.

that makes people think shit like >>717434393

>>717437507
How to make tanks and healer feel cooler and powerful too?

>>717437507
I think it's a mix of what you said AND lazyness (in MMOs)
Leveling and/or gearing up tanks & healers sucks compared to what the majority of players use to clear general PvE content ; DPS.

Note that this is coming from someone who mostly played GW2 recently when it comes to MMOs. In that game, everyone's a DPS by default because of open world content , but hardly anyone is good at it.

>>717437293
Cont.
In a shooter game, you can't just point at the enemy and hold left click until it's over. You WILL get hit and die, and even if you outdamage the enemy, you WILL run out of bullets eventually and have to reload. This interplay between offensive and defensive behavior creates the game. Old MMOs worked because the enemy basically outdamaged the players in a straight fight every single time. Any new MMO that is going to create and actual GAME must balance its meta strategies such that there is a real uncertainty over which behavior to pursue.
>Should we put up barriers and outheal these attacks?
>Should we lock down some of the adds and avoid them until we've whittled down the numbers?
>Should we focus down the mages or the frontline?
Having a functional trinity (defense, support, control) wouldn't solve the design problem all on its own, you'd still need to put a lot of work into enemy design, but it would allow MMO developers to actually start solving the problem. A functional trinity is NOT the same thing as the three meta strategies. A functional trinity allows for players to begin CHOOSING between the three meta strategies.

>>717428517 (OP)
Skillcap is too low for Tank and Healers.
>Healers just need to heal and stay out of red, rarely need to learn mechanics.
>Tanks need to know the dungeon/raid mechanics but are otherwise unkillable even with shit gear.
>DPS need to have top tier gear to do good DPS and the only class where the gear chase actually matters. Need to fufill secondary mechanics in dungeons/raids. Need to redice their survivability to the minimum to pump out damage so not standing im red is actually important. In charge of rezing dead teammates. Get the longest and slowest ques. Often gets teamed up with braindead DPS players so the one good DPS player needs even more DPS to carry the damage. Most Tanks/Healers are bots who don't even think of contributing to DPS and are just healbots/tankbots.

Newsflash, all good tanks/healers reduce their tankyness and heals to do more damage after a certain skill level. The only thing that matters is group DPS, where the DPS players are contributing 70-80% of it and have the highest requirments.

>>717438059
who could be behind this post

>>717428517 (OP)
trinity is not a problem. Aggro is the cancer

>>717435438
hi kirito

>>717429157
How about a boss that disables all forms of healing and defense, just doing straight up percentage hp damage, so the only play is to just not get hit too many times

>>717437797
I am not sure what the fuck you can do other then making them
>green DPS

>>717437861
Interesting point you have.

FF14, I played the first few expansions as SUM, then swapped to SCH, and nothing really changed. DPS/Healer is basically interchangeable outside of group content

FF11 was the complete opposite though. A WHM starting on their own, struggles to leave town.

Though, i know FF14 still has way more DPS then not.

>>717428517 (OP)
Meanwhile FFXIV is healer, healer and someone who is standing around while trying to not fall asleep

>>717428517 (OP)
Support roles are boring to play. Everyone should be a DPS. No healing allowed.

>>717438251
A DPS player who swapped to Tank/Healer becuase the ques are way faster and the gameplay is way easier and my gear hardly matters compared to DPS.

>>717438352
Healers slow down combat to a crawl and makes the entire game revolve around them, both aggro and healers are cancer.

>>717435547
>>717432805
CC is a debuff, you dummies.

>>717438352
>>717438567
Braindead retards

>>717438854
You're mad at the truth

>>717438059
>DPS
>in charge of rezing
>fulfill secondary mechanics
lolwut

>>717438498
>ques are way faster
>gameplay is way easier
>gear hardly matters
Newsflash, it's like that because they need to ease you, yes YOU, into the role because so many people flood DPS otherwise. They can't give healers and tanks the same requirements as DPS because then the people who started DPS would never swap over. It needs to be accessible to DPS players so they can pick it up for the sake of everyone else who just sticks to DPS.

>>717439134
What truth? You simply want to turn a party-focused genre into a DPS race free-for-all.

>>717432805
EQ did this well.
>shaman: buff/debuff, sorta heals
>bard: buff, debuff,cc, some dps
>enchanter: cc, buff/debuff

Problem is mmos are too fast paced now and cater to soloing to such a degree those roles are quasi pointless.
The iPhone demographic shift ruined the genre.

>>717429157
this is actually the main issue. the sole purpose of a healer is to suddenly make your precious healthbar nothing more than a mitigation mechanic and its piss poor game design. remove healers and tanks, make classes self mitigate, make boss mechanics fun and not facechecks. remove stupidly massive healthpools and number values.

it can be done but devs are lazy shits who copy WoW and than WoW copies everyone else.

>>717439641
You don't need to force static combat roles in order to make players cooperate, it just limits what each individual player is capable of. Having more general roles means more variety for everyone.

>>717440227
A party needs structure. Players will automatically put themselves into roles, regardless if the game uses a trinity or not. I'd rather a well designed structure, over shit haphazardly stitched together to accommodate snowflakes.

>>717428517 (OP)
The flaw is that 90% of the player-base plays DPS and only about 5% of them are any good at it.

>>717440165
>remove the roles from an RPG
Maybe you should try a different genre. There's other games out there.

>>717437293
>>717437879
saved

>>717440538
A party doesn't need structure, the game being designed around combat roles makes the party require structure. There are better ways to make players cooperate than forcing them to have jobs in combat. There should only really be two specific roles, ranged and melee. The rest can come from mechanics in the encounters themselves.

you made this shit thread already

>>717428517 (OP)
In D&D, Fighter, Cleric, Rogue and Wizard could be described in these 4 respective roles :
>Fighter = Passive Enabler, tanks and abuses attacks of opportunities and cleaves from enemy mistakes, as well as disarms/trips
>Cleric = Burst Enabler, limited by casts per day, healing and buffs that enable the rest of the group
>Rogue = Passive Solver, has a large set of skills and can perpetually sneak attack for damage and eliminate key targets easily
>Wizard = Burst Solver, limited by casts per day, but can solve almost anything with any sort of creative spell
Modern MMORPGs have everything except Burst Solver. It used to be carried by Support like in RIFT, or Controllers in older MMOs.

>>717428517 (OP)
Tank players are assholes, they are overly bossy and are the quickest to complain.

Healers are assholes, they are passive aggressive and have a complex that they are superior because they make number go up rather than down.

DPS players are assholes, they are short-sighted and don't spare a single thought for anything other than their braindead rotation.

>>717432805
Only games that did this was pullers in eq and ffxi
>but cc
No enchanters were pretty much better tanks using monsters to tank

>>717428517 (OP)
The flaw is that only women and trannies want to play healers. Removing the healer class and designing every class with self-sustain not only makes the game all around more fun for everyone involved, it also gets rid of cancer.

it's funny how mmotards are literally the "can't think outside the box" meme but the box is a triangle. you can point out any number of class based games that don't use the trinity but they will say it doesn't count because their definition of a mmo is that it has tab targeting and aggro management.

>>717442558
classic d&d absolutely did not have the mmo trinity. fighter was an all round combat class that was both survivable and good at doing damage. cleric healing was extremely limited and not meant to outpace enemy damage per turn. the idea of a tank that just stands there getting hit while doing no damage while a haler with infinite healing keeps him from dying is entirely a mmo invention.

>>717444434
>classic d&d absolutely did not have the mmo trinity
I did not imply that. I meant that MMORPGs sort of have some of these roles, although healers are mostly passive nowadays since you just permaheal. In something like FFXIV, the healing is done in burst though.

>Find a flaw.
Healers. Go play a 100% dedicated healer. It's the most beta/sub shit imaginable. You're only there to make sure others get to have fun. And on top of that you can't do shit outside of group content, since you lack damage to comfortably farm/quest/pvp whatever.

Healers should not be mandatory. MMOs should be more like darkest dungeon, where with enough skill a healer is not necessary, but a decission you may consider.

>>717441409
Why play MMORPG, let alone an RPG, if you think everyone being able to do anything is good? Seems to me that you don't want an MMORPG, but a simple drop-in drop-out co-op game. I recommend Vermintide 2.

>>717445619
Vermintide 2 unironically has better dungeons than any MMO.
MMO devs could learn a thing or two from that game.

>>717428517 (OP)
CC, Buffer, and Debuffer roles all forgotten in the face of making things easier and needing less people to play games originally intended to be massive.

>>717428517 (OP)
Its a small part of a wider system

>>717445852
I love Vermintide, but I wouldn't call the levels anything special. They're corridors with enemies randomly placed about or spawned by the director.

>>717444960
you know some people derive their own fun through the healer role and find the others to be the boring ones

>>717445619
explain exactly why a mmo with ratclick combat would be bad

>>717428517 (OP)
I don't see why a DPS wouldn't be able to defend well, or why a Tank wouldn't be able to do a lot of damage. Like, assuming the character is a swordman, that mean they should be good at defending as well as attacking, yes?
>We don't care
But the RPG part!

>>717429061
with friendly fire

>>717445619
Obviously everyone wouldn't be able to do anything, ideally classes would be unique and varied with lots of different tools depending on how they build their character or which class they chose like any RPG. We're talking about the removal of dedicated healer and tanks which wouldn't impact the game negatively in any way.

>>717429061
>AOE should be melee only
nu uh

>>717446875
Sure, but clearly there's not enough of those people to still enforce this system.

>>717428517 (OP)
Uhhh yeah MMOs

>>717437293
Tank and Healer do not "support the party"; they support the SYSTEM that was made explicitly for them.
>The real trinity is tank, heal, control.
"Tank" is the "control" in the Trinity.
Tank and Healer can only exist from the contrivance of Aggro mechanics letting Tanks function, and the high health + constant healing design that allows healers to serve a purpose.

In a proper game, everyone is a viable "DPS" and different utilitarian/support functions are spread across the team. If someone isn't capable of fending for themselves on the battlefield, they don't belong on it.
Tabletop RPGs, most singleplayer cRPGs new and old (mostly old), and even class based action games all more often get it right. Everyone can fight, and everyone has the means to help others. They aren't pigeonholed into extremely narrow "roles" in an overwhelmingly reduced system.

>>717448102
Correct.

>>717446882
Hitreg and lag, even ratclick with 4 players has funky ass hitregs.
>>717447153
Someone's still going to have to heal and tank. So it'd just be a game of DPS classes with mediocre healing/tanking capabilities?

>>717448208
Everyone heals, everyone tanks, everyone have different tools to heal and tank.

>>717448350
Sounds boring as hell to be honest.

>>717448435
You just lack vision

>>717448435
You know what's boring? Spamming a damage rotation while the one tank role player in the group is the only one interacting with the boss, or playing whack-a-mole with friendly health bars. The trinity is the only boring option here.

>>717448208
>Someone's still going to have to heal and tank.
why? who is the healer in monster hunter? who is the tank in vindictus? inb4
>those games don't count their mechanics couldn't possibly be applied to a mmo

>>717428517 (OP)
Tanks got gigacucked by retarded devs who cater to fags that don't even like MMOs and ended up being turned into shittier and more boring DPS instead of being the class that actually protects people like they're supposed to be.

>>717428517 (OP)
DPS role not having as much depth and interaction with their party compared to tanking and healing, or responsibility (no one cares if a DPS dies, but a dead tank or healer is wipe).
Tanks and healers also DPS and can swap to DPS role, not so much for most DPS.
Most DPS never played, and will never play other roles.
Ratio of roles needed in a party/raid and actual role distribution among player characters leading to an unbalanced state of DPSs being expandable while tanks and healers are held on a pedestal because too few play those roles. This leads to an unhealthy pressure and extreme feeling of competition amongst DPS that no other role has to deal with.
DPSs only having to do damage and know what to do during a fight and nothing else, while tanks have to coordinate with their other tank in raids and lead the party/raid, manage healers big cooldowns, call out mechanics over voice chat because DPSs are drooling retards anyway, call out who to combat rez, call out what to do, where to move, what to attack...

>How to fix this?
Give more tank specs to DPS classes.
Give DPSs more interaction with their party beyond threat redirection and tanking/healing abilities from hybrid classes.
Reward mechanic execution and player survivability over pure damage output by making said mechanics more punishing.
Make usage of DPSs cooldown (mitigation, healing and DPS) matter as much as tanks spreading their mitigation tools and healers their healing cooldowns.
Introduce more fights with bosses/adds that can't be taunted, have random aggro/fixate to enforce proper cooldown usage from everyone to control, mitigate, survive and defeat an encounter without relying on the tank mass aggroing everything and absolving other roles from ever using their full kit.

>>717449304
Poor player skill shouldn't always be a burden on the healer because of unnecessary damage taken, over kinds of punishment must be used : long loss of control, extremely reduced damage output, instant death... things like standing in the fire should not only prevent you from attacking, but also kill you very quickly no matter how much heal your are being pumped with.
As a reward for this general increase in player accountability and responsibility, DPSs should do more damage in general, and be as important as a good tank or healer to clear an encounter/dungeon.

>>717448519
Nah, I've played games where players can self-sustain, they're pretty damn boring.
>>717448898
You're still going to spam damage rotations. The boss is just going to shit out AOEs instead of focusing on a tank. Keeping up the party's HP whilst managing heal aggro and mana is far more dynamic and fun than a DPSfest.
>>717449093
Those games are made too be completely playable in a solo experience. A party/friends is optional, no mandatory like in MMORPGs.

When healers function like tanks in open world pvp content with mass shields and heals for days

>>717428517 (OP)
pvp

>>717428598
>tanks can often do more damage than DPSissies

this I don't play mmorpgs but the big guy is always the strongest

are they just supposed to stand their with a shield and not attack in "modern" games

>>717449743
i always hear about tanks not doing damage but in mmos like xiv they do like 20% less damage than a dps and drk/war still do plenty

>>717450575
XIV is barely an MMORPG, don't use it as a barometre for the genre.

>>717428517 (OP)
For me, it's a tank who uses summons to deal damage.

>>717450824
so what are the MMOs where tanks deal no damage

>>717428517 (OP)
Healers are gay

>>717449304
>hybrid classes.
this is the real answer, give the other roles some of the parts of others, a healer that can do dps, a tank that can give buffs, a dps that can do some healing.

>>717451010
That depends. Early levels for tanks in EQ for example did mediocre damage, but you could get better gear to do respectable damage. KMMOs like Flyff usually had low damage tanks early game too, but again, you could get items to increase your damage to respectable levels.

>>717449490
>You're still going to spam damage rotations
Aren't you reading? Everyone gets to heal and everyone gets to mitigate damage, not just tanks and healers. That's a lot more responsibility and things to do for each player.

>>717449490
>spam damage rotations
i feel like this is a weak complaint, most actions games have damage windows where you burst and what not.

>>717449490
is apehoop not a team sport because you can play it 1 on 1?

>>717428517 (OP)
>this mmo bait template spam threads
>easily over a 100 replies
>the other mmo bait template spam threads
>dies with 10 replies
just shows how /v/ doesn't actually play mmos at all despite talking about them constantly

>>717451496
Responsibility for what? Everyone can take care of themselves, the game just because a free for all DPS race. If the game uses aggro, half the party is just going to be spamming their damage rotation whilst the boss cycles through hitting the actual good players. If the boss just shits out AoE, then everyone is just going to throw in a heal or mit during their damage rotation. A party member dying wouldn't matter at all, because they don't fulfill an actual role.
>>717451647
It is. Even in a solo game like DMC or a 1vs1 game like fighting games, people have their bread and butter combo they do 90% of the time when they aren't evading the enemy.
>>717451743
Are you seriously this retarded? Yeah, you can play basketball in a 1vs1 setting or team setting. You can play MMORPGs solo or in a group setting too, the difference is that basketball isn't defined by it's multiplayer elements, MMORPGs (usually) are. Modern MMORPGs, if you can call them that, are shit precisely because of how solo focused they've become.

>>717452295
Trinity threads are the only threads where I can get some actual discussion about game design instead of gacha coomerspam garbage infesting this site.

>>717434393
>If my bus driver nearly kills me and I tell him to not drink and drive at the same time
So you still got on the bus seeing he was drunk and expected better results?

People who want a dedicated controller role are weird, every possible function of the hypothetical role can easily be filled by other roles in the trinity. DPS especially since it has the most flexibility due its only responsibility being "it deals a lotta of damage" which is what every role already does as per the nature of games that use the trinity.

Controller is just a role for people who want to feel like they're LIVING IN THE DATABASE but don't want to play Healer or Tank for some reason.

>>717451057
Hybridization without weakening roles and class identity. Maybe the rogue has a potion to rapidly regenerate someone's mana but the effect is so strong it poison them a little. Maybe the fire mage can cauterize (heal) but doing so permanently reduces the healed player's max hp for the fight. Maybe the survival hunter can shoot a poisoned dart at the enemy to make them go berserk, more damage inflicted and taken... or shoot a numbing dart with an inverted effect. Maybe a warrior can swap their weapons with another warrior (dead or alive), and replace their current specialization with that player's.

>>717428517 (OP)
find a flaw

>>717452768
>basketball isn't defined by it's multiplayer elements
basketball was literally designed as a team sport how is that not being defined by multiplayer elements? the original version of it didn't even have dribbling and you had to pass the ball as soon as you caught it.

>>717452768
I don't understand you, you seem to be imagining the worst game you possibly can and pretending that's the only way it can be done for the sake of your weak argument. It's like talking to a brick wall, zero imagination.

>>717454204
Because the game doesn't fall to pieces if you play it in 1vs1 scenario or with a smaller than average team. Anyone who has played MMORPGs knows how dog shit the gameplay is when you don't have roles to guide you and incentivize certain playstyles. There's a reason why "offline mmorpg" is a pejorative term.

>>717454284
I do not understand you. This "everyone can self-sustain or tank" MMO isn't anything new, it's be done before. And guess what, players still lean into trinity roles. Last time I played a game like that was New World, and party compositions were nearly identical to traditional trinity comps. The problem I have with you idea guys, is that your ideas aren't anything new, they've been tried, and they've been rejected by players. I see the same thing from action-MMO fags. They don't play the games that try what they're suggesting and see how it turns into tab target gameplay at endgame.

>>717454463
you are just being autistic and saying that any class based team game that's good that doesn't have the trinity doesn't count so all class based team games without the trinity are bad. you literally have brain rot that's preventing you from seeing how the system can work.

>>717454827
New World used to be an entirely different game during its alpha, they gave it the holy trinity after WoWfags like asmon and his goons invaded their alpha tests and started demanding the game to be more like WoW. You assholes literally cannot imagine playing a game that isn't tab-target trinity slop.

>>717454827
>vermintide
>vindictus
>monster hunter
>dragon's dogma online
these are all team based multiplayer games with rpg mechanics and distinct classes that don't have trinity gameplay. you have no argument for why a mmo can't have similar class design other than "but if soloing isn't literally impossible it isn't a real mmo," which is retarded.

Can someone explain how to find healing fun? I tanked a little and I get it but it means learning all the dungeons which I CBA. But healing just feels like playing goal keeper. If you wipe everyone blames you. If you play next level amazingly no one even notices. I just don't get how people do such a thankless job by choice.

Can someone make Elden Ring Online already so the trinity becomes redundant and we won't need to have these dumb discussions anymore? The MMO genre really is due for a paradigm shift.

>>717428517 (OP)
Only one class is having fun

>>717455102
>any class based team game that's good that doesn't have the trinity doesn't count so all class based team games without the trinity are bad
Uh huh, and what class team based games don't use the trinity? The only one I can think of is TF2 and it's loadouts.
>>717455189
Barking up the wrong tree. I became interested in New World at first because it was a sandbox PvP MMO designed around territory control. Still, even in sandbox games with freeform character building like UO, people still veered into trinity-like compositions when it came to dungeon crawling.

>>717428517 (OP)
Boring.

What you need to do is split the trinity's attributes among a bunch of hybrid classes so that each player has to basically do all three at once and must co-ordinate with others to achieve the same effect as one player playing a pure member of the trinity.

>>717455987
Yea, I did some vanilla WoW dungeons with a group consisting of hybrid / dps classes and it was way more fun than doing regular tank&spank runs.
I kinda wish someone would make a WoW private server and surgically remove the trinity from the game, it might actually be kino.

>>717453028
It's a carryover from older MMOs where the standard mob packs in a dungeon would maul the entire party if you tried tanking them all at once, so someone had to keep them distracted, mesmerized, stunned, or rooted continually so the party could fight them one by one, this is also where buffer and debuffer roles came in because in some cases even just that one mob was too much especially with an under geared tank.
If you've only ever been exposed to WoW and things more modern than it then you probably won't even understand things like a same level trash mob that takes a quarter or more of your tanks HP in 1 auto attack round.

>>717456318
>roughly half the party controls, rotating who takes damage with limited taunts, stuns, and recovery abilities
>roughly half the party supports, gradually stacking up regens, shields and buffs to snowball the enemies
>everybody has some basic capacity to deal damage and recover health, some specializing in huge interruptible cast times, others in sustainable auto attacking, others in gradual DoT stacking, etc.
I'd play it.

DPSfags always acting like uppity niggers. God i just want to dip my cock into every whiney dpsfags asshole and fuck them until they are a hoarsevoiced, crying mess.

>start game
>pick huge guy for huge damage
>he actually sucks at doing damage
>watch some twink fairy do 5x as much

>>717455564
Oh, you meant PvE, I thought you were talking about PvP for a second. Anyway, Vermintide does partially use the trinity, since it has obvious "tank" careers like Foot Knight, Iron Breaker, Unchained and Warrior Priest. Squishy high damage careers like Shade, Huntsman, Bounty Hunter, Slayer and Battle Wizard. Support based careers like Sister of Thorn, Mercenary, Witch Hunter and Nercro. Vindictus is not a team-based game, it's characters are just different forms of killing the enemy. Monster Hunter is also not a team-based game. Never played DDO, since it never came to the west, so I can't comment on it. MMORPGs shouldn't have class design like that because sooner or later, other players become liabilities rather than assets. Why bother partying up with people when you can do everything on your own? Why not just go the GW1 route and give players the ability to make a party with NPCs? Why even make the game an MMO if players are better off alone or with NPCs rather another player? Have you actually played an MMORPG that tried what you're suggesting?

>>717429061
Only makes sense in a medieval game without magic

>>717438596
debuff in this context is a stat debuff, something like -10% physical defense
CC locks an enemy down, stuns them, slows, etc