Thread 717516842

>The act itself of controlling a camera is never fun and I genuinely believe that when future generations look back at games being made in this era what they'll find to the be the worst aspect of them won't be the graphics, but the camera systems.
He's completely right.

>>717516842 (OP)
Literally a controller only issue.
Growing up on PC games the act of looking around is natural to me, but even in games "best played with a controller" the fucking camera is always a chore, it's either automated and you can't see shit or you have to slowly adjust it yourself all the time.

>>717516842 (OP)
the same retard who spent years making shitty picross

>>717516970
How is looking around good gameplay? That only has place in games with a big focus on exploration. You don't need camera control in linear games.

>>717516970
Babysitting the camera is only a problem in 3rd person games and those play like shit with a keyboard.

>>717516842 (OP)
when you guys make threads like this i really wish you would link the video itself

>>717517446
Trying to play Helldivers 2 with a controller made me feel like putting a bullet in my fucking skull
Elder Bling was fine though, mainly because all important fights were on symmetrical arenas anyway so camera control was irrelevant.

>>717517446
san andreas plays way better with a keyboard and mouse

>You're supposed to bring the pasta to the sauce not the sauce to the pasta
He's completely right.

>>717517446
Unironic skill issue. I do nioh and souls just fine on kbm

kill yourselves

why is this faggot allowed to shill here

>>717518269
he is /ourguy/

>>717518403
fuck off to his discord if you want to discuss a tubenigger

>>717516842 (OP)
Video games, faggot, VIDEO GAMES!

>>717516842 (OP)
LOOK GUISE! I INVENTED A GAME! IT'S THE DARK SOULS 2 OF PUZZLES!

>>717518000
>>717518513
Video game developer talking about video game design belongs on /v/.

>>717518615
Pure logic.

Daily reminder to play the original. It's harder, way better and e-celeb free.

Also, FREE.

lexaloffle.com/bbs/?tid=48966

>>717518849
Looks better too.

>>717516842 (OP)
People still suck off this irrelevant NEET mick?

>>717518968
he was /ourguy/ when people wanted to bitch about dark souls without admitting they were bad at all action games

>>717518849
Why did he sell someone else's free game?

>>717516842 (OP)
skill issue

>>717518000
>>717518513
you never bring this up in giant bomb threads

>>717519408
so you are admitting this is not vidya

>>717519262
It's cheaper than selling chocolate bars or coffee.

>makes an entire dungeons and diagrams clone in an afternoon
>sits on it for years thinking "I'll make some music for it one of these days"
>releases it without music anyway
The moral of the story is release your games unfinished instead of procrastinating

>>717516970
>Literally a controller only issue.
This isn't a controller issue. It's a problem with devs repeatedly failing to understand basic concepts and refusing to sacrifice whatever retarded artistic vision they have to adhere to the golden rule of 3D environment cameras. FromSoft games are a perfect example. There are so fucking many giant enemies where the camera is completely fucked and you never have a full view of what's happening. There are also multiple instances where enemies and your own character will behave differently depending on whether or not you're locked on which impacts the camera.

The perfect camera would not need you to lock on. The perfect camera would keep you visually informed of everything from your character so you know your placement, the enemy so you can read their attacks and the environment so you can see hazards all at the same time. The perfect camera would not get fucked by terrain.

>>717518000
brown

>>717519764
>FromSoft games are a perfect example. There are so fucking many giant enemies where the camera is completely fucked and you never have a full view of what's happening.
You control your camera in Fromsoftware games
Git gud

>>717519782
is this the new tard meme because no one can even come up with an insult anymore

>>717517446
only retards spread this message

>>717516842 (OP)
his vids are genuinely some of the worst pseudointellectual dogshit, the kind that a high school weed and videogame addict would blurt out on a week long brain damage binge
>uh, videogames, ze pixels on ze screen, zey don't follow my autistic made up rules, ze a priori relation to the subject is utterly damaging to my ego

>>717519764
>The perfect camera would not need you to lock on.
Fromsoftware games don't need you to lock on

>>717516842 (OP)
He's right. Silent Hill and old Resident Evil are the best.

>>717520075
Could aliens play Tetris?

>>717518472
We aren't discussing him we're discussing an idea he expressed about game design
You could remove his presence in the OP and nothing about the point of the thread would change, OP was just nice enough to give credit. This is thoroughly a Vidya thread and you're being a faggot.

>>717520173
Yes.

>>717520409
then remove him, fatherless parasocial
zoomer

>>717519840
>retard completely misses the point and responds with a non-argument
I understand you're desperate to play the "git gud" card because you don't have anything going for you in life and pretending to be better than others is the only glimmer of happiness you can find but please at least think before you post. There are some enemies in FromSoft games where you literally can not keep your view focused on everything relevant(character/enemies/environment) at the same time. It literally can not be done. This is not subjective. You are wrong.

>>717520990
>complaining this much instead of getting better

>>717520085
>retard completely misses the point and responds with a non-argument
Why are Fromdrones so stupid?

>>717516970
fpbp

>>717518709
>pure logic
>win/lose comes down to guessing more often than not

literally impossible

baked camera was the best part of RE/MGS, surprised with how linear games have become that we haven't brought it back

>>717516842 (OP)
I think his "Context Sensitivity" video is still the GOAT of videogame analysis. It's like a content creator decided to actually think through the subject instead of just regurgitating factoids or what they feel.

>>717521878
basic brain knowledge about design

>>717521878
Yeah, that's the stuff that academic analysis of video games should be focused on instead of garbage like black and female representation.

>>717522390
>instead of garbage like black and female representation
It's not 2011 anymore anon. Antiwoke bitchfests are every gaming video now. Maybe shut the fuck up about your culture war bullshit if you want actual commentary.

>>717520937
why not credit the game director who made such a point? why does it bother you that a specific person said something?

>>717522528
if you are still posting about matosis you perpetually are living in 2011

>>717516842 (OP)
>The act itself of controlling a camera is never fun
He's completely wrong
on a good 3D platformer, camera control is a part of the gameplay and its extremely freeing and fun
the most fun I've ever had with 3D platformers are games with camera control and that's not a coincidence

>>717522528
Not in academic circles. It's still the same shit.

>>717522809
Oh shut the fuck up no one classified as an actual academic is talking about videogames with this shit. Asmongold and unshaven stinky gamers living in actual rat shit are the face of games. Get with the times.

>>717517765
based infinite review poster

>>717516842 (OP)
in 2025 people are bitching about pixel retro graphics so he couldnt be any more wrong

>>717523124
>Oh shut the fuck up no one classified as an actual academic is talking about videogames with this shit
Yeah, you obviously have no clue how retarded academics are.

>>717516842 (OP)
I'm playing ninja gaiden black and I couldn't agree more

>>717523223
I know someone as retarded as you isn't actually looking into any of it

>>717517765
It took until this video for me to learn that I was supposed to salt pasta

>>717517765
>food analogies
why did anyone listen to this hack

>>717523663
I learned invaluable rice advice from the dr who cookbook video

>>717516842 (OP)
>>The act itself of controlling a camera is never fun
controlling a camera isn't supposed to be fun, it's just something that's necessary to allow you to be able to play certain games. i like matthew but some of his points are really fucking stupid.

>>717523928
the lack of QoL in logic bombs makes it even harder to take his commentary seriously

>>717523928
He's making a very valid point though. Do you truly not understand this?

>>717524686
that camera systems in a game are complex and he has nothing to offer to the discussion outside of saying how they made him not have fun when fun isnt the goal its about functionality

>>717516842 (OP)
Didn't he make the point that pointer camera systems like shooters avoid this because moving the camera is the gameplay?
I still agree.

>>717524686
your mother makes a very valid point when she says you should get a job and get the fuck out of her house. do you truly not understand where she's coming from?

>>717521768
Think about that one.

>>717524805
It's a slap-dash solution that hasn't been improved on since its inception.

>>717524805
Okay so you don't understand. Got it. You should've just said so.

>>717516842 (OP)
Are people really this retarded?

>>717519764
You honestly sound like you just want to play RTS games. Faggot.

>>717524970
right super mario 64's camera is of the same quality as elden ring's camera. no improvements have been made at all

>>717517765
They hated him for telling the truth, and being blue

>>717525115
They both use an analog stick so yes.

>>717516970
>"this is a controller issue"
>only plays first person games on PC

the problem is actual good games are third person and they are designed around analog movement, impossible to do with WASD

>>717518615
Minesweeper is a bad game though, Logic bombs is a huge improvement.

>>717525115
nta but the camera of something like Elden Ring should be held to more scrutiny. It runs into issues that I could see being avoided if the camera was more stationary in certain areas like DMC3 or if it zoomed out automatically like Shadow of the Colossus. Those are red hot takes I know.
Of course it would need to no longer be open world, which it shouldn't be anyway just for pacing and difficulty progression.

>>717520075
His videos are good because he clearly thinks about stuff rather than giving you a summary of shit he found online. In retrospective all thoughts seem obvious but getting there requires a bit of effort.

>>717525556
that's interesting cause i've never ran into issues with the camera in souls games. seems like it's only an issue for people who can't move the camera while performing other actions

That's actually a good point, at some point we're probably gonna have an AI orienting the camera, because it seems more like work rather than playing the game.

>>717516842 (OP)
after playing a lot of games with fixed or automatic camera movement i can say he is completely right. games are infinitely more fun when im not directly controlling the camera

>>717525093
I'm not sure how you got that but damn what an easy concession. Next time try bringing something other than a fallacy.

>>717516842 (OP)
I don't think the entire first person genre would be possible without absolute camera control.

>>717524970
matosis provides no solution either and brings up the same thing developers were trying to figure out.and also made cases for dmc's dogshit camera

>>717525332
I'd rather take precise camera control + digital movement to control the direction I'm going versus poor/automated camera + analog motion input.
I do own a controller, I just never liked it.

>>717525685
I mean it's never UNUSABLE but it could also do a better job, even just for aesthetic purposes. A boss starting an attack animation you only see on a portion of the screen is doable but it's not perfect. I really appreciate games where the camera is fixed in a nice place you don't feel compelled to fuck with it. Might not be an issue if you have a controller with back paddles you can remap the face buttons to (and I assumed this was the exact reason Demon's Souls from the beginning mapped attacking to buttons used by the index finger instead of the thumb), but you probably don't have that option on console. I've come to really enjoy mapping jump to the back paddles by default.

>>717525882
Then how come zoomers get the ick from games with fixed cameras or games without full camera control?

>>717525332
no good third person shooter plays well without a mouse

>>717524913
Think about where you would place 4 walls in the same row. His partial solution must be wrong.

>>717523928
>controlling a camera isn't supposed to be fun, it's just something that's necessary to allow you to be able to play certain games
You do realize that every part of the player experience ideally should be enjoyable? All games could have had shitty movement and we still could have enjoyed some of them, simply because moving the character allows us to see new places or interact with the npcs and so on.
We, however, have had enjoyable (or at least unobtrusive) movement for ages now, so there's no reason to defend shitty movement or say that it "isn't supposed to be fun." Same goes for cameras.

>>717516842 (OP)
I would say Wind Waker has a fun camera. It’s very smooth, especially coming off of OOT.

>>717526128
Because they can't rotate a room in their head so every time they change camera angles they don't know where they are.

>>717526052
>matosis provides no solution either
The solution is already known. The problem is nobody cares enough to do it.

>>717526128
the same reason millennials like you make incredible generalizations. stupidity

>>717516842 (OP)
He’s 100% right and it’s one (of the many reasons) monster hunter wilds is fucking trash

Focus mode is boring as shit

>>717526128
They don't though? A shitton of popular indie games are 2d and don't have any camera controls.
What zoomers are allergic to is tank controls, early 3d and finicky cameras. The camera in mario 64 sucks ass in comparison to full camera control in mario odyssey

>>717526287
The camera is the Point of View that frames our entire perspecrive into the game. Cameras should be designed explicitly with the experience they're being made for, and how the developer wishes to frame that experience. It goes beyond just being the camera, but the design and intended emotional experience. Saying "the act controlling camera itself is never fun" misses the point of what the camera is: The window, the aspect ratio in cinema terns, but more importantly, the literal framing device. Bad cameras that detract from the game and don't add anything do exist, but to say they aren't fun boils down their purpose too simply: how a camera is designed to function in a game IS the game. It informs so much of the game's design that the two are in intrinsic, and to seperate 'fun' from that is impossible. Matthew is yapping at this point, bc I don't see how you could could make such definitive statement, when the only issues are when cameras are incongruent with their gameplay and stand between the player and it, but that's just wonky design: a failing on the dev's part. The act of controlling the camera is supposed to be inherently fun.

>>717525556
>of course we need to fundamentally change what the game is
So cameras are necessary its just for genres you personally don't like so you don't count it

>>717529285
camera systems should be exciting and make you cheer while playing since they are so much fun

>>717520990
Curious what examples you would list. The real question is do you need to see everything? I don’t need the camera to pan way the fuck out when fighting the Fire Giant in Elden Ring to be able to effectively deal with the boss. I personally think the camera itself in most fromsoft games works perfectly fine. If anything it’s lock-on priority that sucks and the reason it sucks is because they intentionally nerfed it to prevent estus cancelling.

>>717516970
Not a controller issue at all. I grew up on consoles and I still use them and can control the camera just fine. I don't play fps though so I'm talking about third person games.

>>717529285
Yup. Look at how big a difference the camera made in the American vs the Japanese releases of Spyro the Dragon. Jap camera is dogshit and practically ruins the game.

>>717517853
You can do anything just fine with any method od control, doesn't mean it's optimal. The best first person game made in the last decade plays better with controllers, in fact (outer wilds)

>>717516970
Camera is an even bigger issue with KBM outside of the first person view, dumb fuck

>>717532849
Right I'm genuinely confused are people actually so retarded they struggle using 3rd person cameras on controller?
Its fun to have that freedom to look around and its at this point extremely easy and intuitive to use

The fact of the matter is that Matthew was just being a contrarian because people shat on W101 for having shit camera. But neither the people criticizing the game nor him could grasp that the real issue wasn't the camera but that Kamiya decided to frame the entire fucking game diagonally rather than vertically like any normal isometric camera, leading to considerable portions of the screen always being out of player view, because saw a shmup do it when he was a kid.

Matthew then proceeded to suck W101 for being a huge arcade homage. Same guy who said DMC3 didn't count because Itsuno had a "first try" with DMC2.

This thread is a huge waste of time because you people ignore the Leprechaun is a Kamiya dickrider and will come up with any kind of rationalizations to defend his dev crush.

>>717536302
oh my god you’ve solved it sir your media literacy is so good

ok
what games have good camera controls?

>>717516970
Dark Souls camera is great because it leaves it up to you to control the whole time.

>>717518513
We're talking about camera systems in video games you twit.

>>717519689
His hubris really shone through with the music issue.
He was saying on a stream how easy it will be to make music.
Then his game was delayed because he had so much trouble trying to implement music...and then gave up on the music.

>>717538578
Mega Man 9

>>717516842 (OP)
>The act itself of controlling a camera is never fun
It is in flight sims.

>>717525115
Elden Ring's camera is 1000 times better than mario 64s.