Thread 717689532

Do videogames mog books when it comes to writing?
>Planescape Torment
>Undertale
>Xenogears
>Disco Elysium

>>717689532 (OP)
Nah not even close. Yeah just let me do 50 fucking errands before I read the next chapter. Gay shit.

Have you ever read a book in your life you retarded ape? And I mean actual real book not comic books or some young adult trash

They’re not Kafka or Dostoevsky in complexity, but they’re still high-level stuff, yeah

>>717689645
fpbp

>>717689532 (OP)
Book writers are paid by page, so there's a lot of padding. Games at least have gameplay between scenes.

>>717689532 (OP)
I suppose they can. Unfortunately, it's not the distinguishing factor of the medium, so it's ultimately irrelevant.
So congratulations to Planescape Torment, Undertale, Xenogears, and Disco Elysium. You wrote a mildly entertaining screenplay that takes 4x as long to power through because it's broken apart by the one thing you completely screwed the pooch on: the gameplay.
>Let's write a good story with some unique dialogue and completely fuck it up by inserting it into a medium it has no business being in!
>Yeah!

Not all books are well written and anyone acting like they are doesn't read. That being said obviously a lower amount of video games are well written.

>>717689532 (OP)
frognigger

>>717689712
I've read the recommended ones (Blood Meridian, Book of the New Sun, ASOIAF, LoTR, etc.) Is there one you recommend that mogs all vidya?

>>717689532 (OP)
Video games are better for being more interactive and entertaining not necessarily better writing. Also 99% of every medium is shit.

>>717689957
Read Steinbeck and Dostoyevski you dumb fucking frognigger

>>717689532 (OP)
No. I don't think any game ever rivaled the top 50 best books ever written.
The biggest contenders for me would be Ace Attorney games, Deus Ex, Mass Effect 1, and idk probably Disco Elysium but I haven't played it.
Xenoblade gets the boot. It's a fucking bloated narrative, and 1 isn't even that much better than 2, now that I've finally played through it. And 2 is cute but it really is just a lot of tropes at the end of the day.

And a lot of pre-emptive choices I'm going to disqualify right away
>Zero Escape games
>Persona
>Kaname Date games
>Danganronpa
>Radiant Historia
>The Last of Us
A lot of the best-considered narratives in vidya fall flatly into the category of "you think they're good just because there's a lot of text and it seems complex". Or in TLOU "it seems emotionally compelling but it's just navel gazing."
Dear Me, I Was has better "writing" than games I've played in the last, idk, 8 years maybe, and it's a 50 minute long game.

>>717689532 (OP)
Of course not.
The best written books are literally eons ahead of the best written video games.

I think there are plenty of well written games but books on the whole are far, far superior in that department

>>717689957
Contact, by Carl Sagan.

>>717689532 (OP)
Kill yourself.

>>717689957
Read what interests you

There's no way to get around the ludo-narrative dissonance unless you make the game a completely on rails walking simulator.

>>717689957
Foundation Trilogy is a good pick.

>>717690091
>Xenoblade
Op didnt mention Xenoblade

I refuse to believe any of you retards read anything other than 4chan posts.

>>717690338
Just make a game with no dialogue like Inside. That's more notable than writing a bunch of words.

>>717689532 (OP)
>>Undertale
>>Xenogears

>>717689836
I do genuinely believe a lot of VNs outperform a lot of bestsellers. But I also haven't played a lot of VNs. The issue with VN is that they over-rely on japanese 'dere tropes and typically have a perverted depiction of all its women.
Like, I started Tsukihime and it does seem genuinely well written to me, all things considered, but it also feels like everything is a male's mouthpiece.

I find good writers really nail characterization beyond their self-interest. Shu Takumi's writing in Ace Attorney is some of the finest because he really sticks to his characterizations and differentiates it well. Hotel Dusk Room 215 has similarly solid writing where each person in the story really has their own way of behaving, and interact around on the Hotel, so as relationships become either suspicious or dramatic, you get a real sense of "people" from them and you get where they're all coming from when they start tell their life stories.
I find the most underrated aspect of writing, either in general or in video games is that creative people think they're challenging themselves by picturing the "unimaginable" but it's actually the opposite. If you try to write a real fucking person, that's the hardest challenge in and of itself. How much do you actually know about people who are not yourself? How do you convince the player or the reader that these characters lived a full life that isn't full of plot contrivances? How do you make sure that they don't feel like an extension of your own personality when they're talking?

I find the best books and game narratives have a sense that the writer truly immersed themselves and dealt intelligently with the story's synopsis and the course of character interactions, which is why so many games can't tell good stories. As soon as you break out of a linear A -> B structure, the plot becomes so fragmented that pacing any revelations of emotional bumps falls behind the player's self interest.

>>717690603
>filtered by disc 2

>>717690349
Xenogears is just as bad and is just based on Evangelion. You just liked it because you were a toddler.
>>717690485
Inside's "plot" is a joke

>>717690091
Mass Effect 1 writing wise is equivalent to a very good sci-fi book/show/movie from the 80s/90s which is pretty impressive.

>>717690803
I literally played it last year and it became my favorite game.

>>717689712
name 1

>>717690792
I was filtered by disc 1. Even ignoring the horrible gameplay, the way the dialogue is written is downright horrible. You could claim it's merely a translation issue, but I sincerely doubt OP knows Japanese.

>>717690040
>Steinbeck
You're an idiot if you think his books are well written.

>>717691017
There's an english patch with a more faithful translation

>>717690803
The plot is simple but the way it's told is pretty cool.

>>717691068
Bold of you to assume he’s read them.

Sure wasn't this game
>Protagonist acts like didn't hear what they learned in the previous games
>Reapers, the doomsday machine species take over Earth but their plot is known to be complete eradication of "advanced spacefaring civilization" every 50.000 years, including all other species than just Humans
>Protagonist wants to "stay on Earth and fight" knowing they're not here to conquer the planet
>A sad little child appears
>SAD PIANO MUSIC
>"Holy shit, you're telling me when all species go extinct, LITTLE BOYS ARE KILLED?" O H N O.
>You leave Earth to find alternatives while it's under fire
>Protagonist is still like "I'd RATHER STAY AND FIGHT" knowing that isn't the answer
>Old sidekick shows up
>We've found a superweapon. It might BE THE ONLY WAY TO STOP THE REAPERS
>OH GEE. HOW CONVENIENT
>You find the weapon blueprint
>"We don't know what it does, or how it works
>You must GATHER ARMIES, so that you can waste them against the Reapers, so the device that we don't know how it works or what it even does will do something, THAT'S OUR PLAN.
>Space Jesus Protagonist stops Historic Centuries old Conflict to recruit Species #1 and #2
>Space Jesus Protagonist stops Historic Centuries old Conflict to recruit Species #3, #4 or both
>The richest rogue army in the galaxy with INFINITE resources stops you in you're path
>They steal the data on the Superweapon that you don't know what it does or how it works
>You defeat the dirty bastards
>The device has to dock with the Central Space Station to fire
>The Reapers just moved the Central Space Station to Earth. HOW CONVENIENT
>Your old mentor is like "We did it." We still don't know what the device does.
>The Child appears and explains the Reapers are just stopping things like Race #3 from killing Organic life, so the Reapers kill Organic Life every 50.000 years to prevent that.
>Protagonist has 3 options to replace the Reapers
>It's very hard. Who knows if Race #3 will become a THREAT TO ALL LIFE.
fucking trash.

>>717690861
Exactly. It's an inconsistent piece because there are 5 writers who are a mix of actually good writers and people that stayed until Veilguard, but the good parts are really fucking good, and I'd go as far as to say that Mass Effect felt societally relevant until the Russia shit, and Trump 2.0 started happening.

>>717691081
Well shit, wish somebody told me about them before I started Xenogears. Still, I'm sure as hell not going to replay it, as:
>it seems to have been released only in the last 5 years, and most people praising it played it way before that - I have zero faith in their judgment
>it's incomplete
>it seems to be taking way too many liberties

JAPANESE
Miroku: ヴァンダーカムの尻尾を引きずり回して、きりきり舞させてやります!なぁ!ぼうず!
Fei: 俺は"ぼうず”じゃない。死んでも経はあげてやれないぜ、おっさん。
Miroku: ん?はぁっはぁっはは。。

LITERAL MEANING
Miroku: We'll drag Vanderkam around by his tail and make him dance! Right, son!?
Fei: I'm no monk, and if you die, I won't be chanting any sutras for you, old man.
Miroku: Huh? Ha ha ha...

ORIGINAL TRANSLATION
Miroku: We'll drag Vanderkaum's tail around and around! Right son!?
Fei: Don't call me 'son'...cuz you sure ain't my pops.
Miroku: Huh? Ha ha ha...

MY TRANSLATION
Miroku: Time to smack Vanderkam around and bring him into the present day! Right son!?
Fei: Don't get cocky, old man, 'cause I don't want to have to bury you out there.
Miroku: Ha! Not bad, but you got a-ways to go before you're talking like a soldier.

>>717689957
You are an NPC

>>717691793
ME3 is an abomination and I despise ME3 apologists so much.

I attempted writing a story and didn't get very far. It was horrible and I abandoned the project early. I don't know how writers of any medium manage to craft anything of value.

>>717689532 (OP)
There are games with good writing but rarely accompanied with great gameplay.
There's brazillions of books with great writing but none of them have good gameplay.

>>717693192
Yeah. I can't criticize 2 in the same way, because while they forgot to develop the trilogy itself, at least the characters in the story act logically enough to what is in front of them, and the game starts by saying we're staffing up with a fresh crew to go on a suicide mission, and it ends with the suicide mission, and getting a nice BTFO moment with Illusive Man after he's been coy with you for the entire game.
ME2 is still kino. It may have derailed the plot, but at least it's not an utter mess of fake, misleading storytelling like 3 is and ending on nonsequitur bullshit.

>>717693697
2 has things that are just as bad as 3 but way less often. The main story is flat out terrible but the main story also barely exists. I forgave 2 back in the day because 3 was on the horizon and there was still a chance they'd tie everything together but that never happened. Now I only play ever play 1.
>at least the characters in the story act logically enough to what is in front of them
An important and massive exception is Shepard, nothing Shepard does make any fucking sense when confronted with Cerberus and it's totally hamfisted and forced.

>>717689957
the sluts by dennis cooper
discworld series
southern reach series

>read a book
>visualize the own world within your mind with any level of detail conceivable
>play game
>be limited by the physical constraints of modern hardware
get the fuck out of my face with that bullshit

>>717694140
>muh graphics
Go outside nerd

>>717693946
2 feels like an "escapades" narrative, like a Monster of the Week middle of the series to me, and I personally forgive it for not developing the central plot because at least it's characterizing smaller tidbits of the world like Book 3 in SoIAF with more minute details and DEPICTION. It's not easy to depict culture and science fiction with any specificity but they do it so fucking well at several points in ME2, something I feel ME3 skimped on as it sort of anthropomorphisized the "War in Space" chapter to become overly dogmatic instead.

Like 2's Flotilla mission is just fucking excellent writing, or the parts on Tuchanka when you see the Krogan headbutting each other and examiningthe Clan structure. The codex in 1 is godlike but actually seeing BioWare come together as a full studio, with all the challenges creative-to-production work comes with, and depicting it well is really impressive, and shows a point in the BioWare timeline when the writers actually managed to direct the stories well.

Of course that comes with problems as the main story was not up to par, but I feel like 2 has such a stronger focus on the world itself, whereas 3 resorts to nothing but movie clichés and retarded appropriations to IRL war-history shit that dumbs down all the alien species because it's as if they wanted all species to be retrofitted into a WW2 allegory.

>>717694272
go out of the closet first, fagtron

>>717694343
Meh, it's not for me. 2's episodic format would be better if it wasn't so formulaic. Every story involves some personal or family issue the crewmate has, and usually ends with Shepard making a faux decision that wraps it up. Very little ever ties back to the main story.
There are several worldbuilding failures involving the Council, Shepard, Cerberus, Collectors, Harbinger, Terminus Systems, etc. that I have no will left to appreciate whatever side stories they decided were more important than the foundations of the setting.
Also aside from writing, I preferred 1's systems and gameplay more. 2 dumbed down and streamlined too much.

>>717689957
did you read them or did you just sound out the words in sequence

>Do videogames mog books when it comes to writing?
The answer is yes.

Some random RPG:
>Governments falsify history only so it favours them. But you can't blame them. Because people always hope for a 'miracle'. Endlessly complaining, lazy, nuisances... that's what the masses really are. Governments give the people what they want... and history repeats itself. Governments might well have taken advantage of their insecurity... but then again, people are satisfied being used... 'God' is nothing but an image created out of their insecurity. It's their fault for knowing they're comfortably numb, and not doing anything about it.

The greatest piece of 20th century literature:
>bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonnerronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenthurnuk!

>>717689532 (OP)
There isnt a single Japanese game with good writing.

>>717689957
>the recommended ones (Blood Meridian, Book of the New Sun, ASOIAF, LoTR, etc.)
Recommended by whom? A smelly 30yo dnd nerd at comiccon?

>>717689532 (OP)
it can
do we ever see it? subjective

kith

>>717694786
It's true. The "daddy issue" complaint is very true and you can tell they modeled it after LOST which was oh so popular at that period of time.
1 is the only game that truly holds up, but I still do find that 2 has some excellent pieces of world depiction. I guess it does really stink in the sense that no matter how good a job the individual writers did on the world detail, you can just tell some executive at BioWare handed down a note that said "It's Daddy Issues, like in LOST, because everybody's watching that right now!" and that kind of poisoned the well.

>>717689742
wrong

>>717689532 (OP)
No, but they can be on the same level or way better than your average comic/Graphic novel. Still leagues behind any classic work of literature a la Joyce or Borges.

>>717696812
Coincidentally, I hate Lost haha.

>>717691068
can you explain how they aren't well written?

>>717697459
It's a pretty fail show, but at least I wasn't aware of it the first time I played through ME2 and I've never really internalized the "daddy issue" complaint enough to get a negative net impression of the experience even as I replay it.
Every time I've played all 3 games, 2 is the one where I stop in the middle of it and just vibe with how excellent everything is. They really put a lot of detail into design of conversations aboard the ship and it's more dynamic than 1 but also more interactive than 3.
I do prefer 1 in a lot of ways. But in the end I'm okay with not having "3 ME1s" back to back. I just hate that 3 is a further streamlining of 2, and I wish 3 was more like the pros of 2 mixed back with the more RPG-oriented game design of ME1.

I also didn't grasp why the fuck the entire premise was decided to be "WAR." I thought 3 would've ran until its halfway point or third act before we really got to see the full scale of the Reaper invasion, because it would've needed to establish that Shepard "figures out the truth" or something, and then by the time they really come in numbers, you've found the Magic Elixir, and you know the ancient truths about what's always wrong when Civilization develops or something, and then you have to confront the Reapers, and maybe have Illusive Man involved as a Devil's Advocate in some way, but in a more ideologically charged final series of moments.

3 almost fully fails to develop the ideological struggle underlying its themes as Shepard gets closer to a final confrontation. That's why the plot sort of falls apart with the Cerberus Headquarters level and subsequent Earth finale, because the plot is basically gone.

>>717689532 (OP)
Maybe but those games all have shit writing

>>717690040
>Dostoyevski
Isn't he he go-to pick for pseud scholar wannabes?

>>717698020
>t. never played any of them

>>717698020
Undertale is avante garde.

>>717689532 (OP)
No retard.
Books > Movies > Videogames.

>>717689532 (OP)
Nope, they are digital toys at best.

Books > manga > VNs > film > anime > TV >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> video games

>>717700846
This is the most reddit 3x3 ever. /v/ really is the home of pedestrian opinions.

>>717700510
This.
The Eye of Argon > Birdemic > Disco Elysium

>>717701013
DIE pleb in your MEDIOCRITY; you meek MAGGOT.

>>717700846
Unironically kys.

>>717700846
>Jojo
Sorry i can't take you seriously

>>717689957
All of those are better than any video games writing
If you don't get it, thats okay. The world needs burger flippers too

>>717689957
LOTR is more influential on video game writing than anything else. It's such a fundamental building block in modern fantasy to the point where almost every fantastical concept you can think of can have a thread traced back to it.

>>717689532 (OP)
Not really, no. Two different mediums that have their own strengths and weaknesses.
That isn't to say that a video game CAN'T be as good or better than a book in terms of characters and story, but that's an incredibly tall order to fill, and something I've yet to experience.
For example, a book series like Dune or Lord of the Rings would be incredibly difficult to adapt into a game without being incredibly boring or not touch on anything that made the books good to begin with.

>>717700510
Video games and books are both better than movies.

Different mediums necessitate different types of storytelling. It's silly to compare quality across mediums when they're so different.

>>717700846
>manga > VNs > film > anime > TV

>>717701198
>kokou no hito
>but no innocent
You just like it because it's about an autismo, you don't even appreciate the craftsmanship

>>717689532 (OP)
Only if you don’t read books.

>>717696064
That's /lit/ core. Get educated.

>>717705897
>/lit/ core
Funny. It's literally just pop-culture slop, apart from Blood Meridian which is only on the list because it's an edgelord meme.