Thread 717781421

Challenging level =/= Bad level. Why the FUCK do so many people act like "I died a couple times, therefore that means this level is badly designed"?

>>717781421 (OP)
because it's legitimately poorly designed compared to the others with how the mechanics to get each jiggy are and way less fun to anything prior or after this level

>>717781627
Do you think maybe your own inability to have fun in challenging environments might be a personal flaw you should try to address? That perhaps being presented with a test of skill and being incapable of deriving satisfaction from it might be negatively influencing your life in other areas?

I was always under the impression that the note system was what was bugging people, not the level itself being hard. I personally don't find the engine room all that difficult anymore but I can see why somebody angry if they had like 90/100 notes and had to revisit every room in the level again after dying.

>>717781421 (OP)
90% of RBB is good.
The engine room is the 10% that IS bad, but that's mostly because the way BK control isn't suited to timed jumps on moving platforms over a bottomless pit whatsoever.

>>717782619
This take is reasonable

>>717782124
>NOOO SHUT UP SHUT UP IT'S FUN FUCK YOU IT'S FUN
great argument negroid

If you ever play the game again, consider going straight to the engine room and clearing it out before doing anything else in the bay. Once it's out of the way the rest of the level is relatively easy unless you struggle with the swimming controls.

Dying on one of the later areas of CCW from accidentally falling down was where I stopped playing. No way I was gonna redo the ENTIRE level just to finish collecting the 20 or so notes I had remaining.

>>717782619
Yeah, this is shit because sometimes the game will hold you onto the platform as it violently moves to the side rather than letting you leave the platform the moment you press the jump button. Sometimes Banjo and Kazooie end up jumping sideways straight over a bottomless pit through no real fault of your own.

>>717781421 (OP)
i don't like re-collecting the notes after dying multiple times in the engine room

>>717781627
>because it's legitimately poorly designed
How?

The HD remaster tried to fix notes by making them one-time collectibles, but I feel like that went the other direction and made things too easy.
Personally I would have made the extra lives more useful by letting you keep the notes after dying. Your note score would only reset upon a game over, or leaving the world.

>>717781421 (OP)
because most players are filthy casuals

>>717782748
>random racism unprompted for no reason

So your opinion doesn't carry any value, got it

>>717781421 (OP)
I always saved the notes behind the fan at the back of the ship for last. Don't think I ever managed to swim back out before it started up again.

>>717782124
>Pretentious armchair psychologist fuckhead is a Banjo fan

Explains a lot. The actual reason is just this
>>717782286

>>717783276
If you think Xbox went too far with Notes (I agree) making Notes only reset after a game over ain't gonna fix anything. It would functionally still be a punishment-free system because game overs are extremely rare and unlikely in this game, and would just make small children who keep dying repeatedly cry. Also, smart people who are about to game over would just leave the level to go get health and come back lol

Tying Notes with the golden banjo trophies could totally work tho. Make it so you spend trophies whenever you die. Maybe each statue you find saves you from recollecting 20 Notes, you can choose to spend them after death or save them. That would materially incentivize you to get the trophies and reward you directly for exploring thoroughly.

>>717784094
You might be onto something, because I was worried keeping the lives as-is would still be too easy. At the end of a run I typically cap out at 9 lives; at worst I might lose one or two fighting Grunty at the end.

>>717781421 (OP)
The propeller jiggy is literally the only remotely challenging jiggy in the game

>>717783276
>>717784660
>or leaving the world

Oh sorry i missed that part. Another way to do it tho, is you don't spend them, instead the trophies are permanent. Each level you always start with 0 trophies. Each level has exactly 5 trophies, which safeguards 20 Notes each, so if you find all 5 you're completely safe to die. And if you at least find 2-3 trophies the penalty is reduced substantially enough that it's not a real big issue anymore

If you want to dish out a little more generosity, have more trophies in the level you can find overall, by having silver trophies that safeguard 10 Notes each, but are a lot easier to find. And the golds save 20 or 25 Notes but are harder to come by.

Idk if this concept of keeping trophies as permanent safeguards for Notes in that level is better or worse game design than making trophies more abundant and choosing to spend them, but it's simpler. Probably pros and cons to each method.

>>717785048
Possibly. but holy shit i hate this one with all my fucking heart

>>717781421 (OP)
It's just bullshit because I say it is. You know unfair, fake difficulty when you see it. I only respect games that are tough, but fair. Rusty Butthole Bay is not one of those. Nor is Cuck Clock Woods.

you guys do realize that the reason BK doesn't save notes on the N64 is because there wasn't enough save space, right? It wasn't an artistic design choice.

Click Clock Wood won

>>717785743
I keep hearing conflicting voices as to whether or not this fact is actually true

>>717781421 (OP)
The difference between a level being challenging and a level being bad isn't that you died a couple times, it's HOW you died.
If you died because an enemy killed you. That's a skill issue.
If you died because traversing the level is a genuine challenge with well made and clear structure. That's a challenging level.
However if you died traversing a level not because you sucked but because the level's design was not properly prepared with the game's mechanics in mind then that's a bad level.
RBB is a good level until you get inside the Ship's engine. The platforming was not built with those rotating platforms in mind, the slope detection was not made with those rotating poles in mind. Deaths in the engine room don't feel like they're your fault for being bad or retarded. It's geometry that was not made with the game's mechanics in mind.

>>717785917
It might have been true at the time they made BK and not when they made BT only because of their own skills.
Think the shift between GE to PD where GE was considered the brink of limit.

>>717785917
Looking at the N64 and other titles it likely is true. You'd need to save each note as a flag(100 x number of levels with notes) and then ensure you delete only the collected notes. There probably isn't enough space to do all those calculations while simply saving a single int value for each level of total number of notes collected is far easier and far more reliable.

>>717781421 (OP)
dog shit level

>>717781421 (OP)
Banjo was never good

>>717786154
>>717782934
>>717782619
The only reasonable takes itt

>>717786528
If it's true then it's purely programmer incompetence or laziness though and has nothing to do with that it wasn't perfectly doable.

Clanker's Cavern is worse than Rusty Bucket in every conceivable manner

All levels are really memorable. They all have a strong center theme build into the level design. This is something which modern indie platformers that try to replicate this old style often fail at. They add a graphical theme and then maybe a gimmick but nothing that ties everything together.

>>717789227
Maybe if you're a kid but it's easily a top 5 level for me now.

>>717789837
It's like when a lot of kids hate Grunty Industries despite it being literally the best level in the series. There is some real thought put behind what could be perceived as annoying.

>>717782286
This is basically my thoughts. And if you play the Xbox version, it doesn't even apply anymore.

>>717785743
>>717786528
Total bullshit, storing how many notes you have collected on a level is absolutely not something that would take up any significant amount of space.

>>717792058
good luck fitting 900 flags for 3 save files in 512 bytes.

>>717793114
99% of complaints are about losing your notes when you die. So even in the absolute worst case they could have still at the very least saved the notes for the current level you are in. So just allocating space for 100 flags at any given time would have solved most complaints about the system.

>>717785743
But... the second game saves them. What?

>>717793990
What's the difference between Banjo-Kazooie's notes and Banjoe-Tooie's notes?

>>717793990
the notes are in bundles in tooie. only need to rememeber 10% of the data

>>717794091
>>717794092
I hadn't thought about that, maybe that does make the difference.

So the real reason N64 has no JRPGs is because of it being unable to store the huge item lists that any JRPG has to save of the player's inventory, equipment and stats.

>>717794127
it does. like i said, you're using a fraction of the memory if you only have 10 bundles of notes per level or whatever it is, vs the 100 individually placed notes in kazooie

>>717794213
item lists, monster stats, drop rates, encounter rates, etc

If N64 games couldn't save shit how then could you save your pictures in Pokemon Snap? That shit is way more complex than simple flags.

>>717794351
>monster stats, drop rates, encounter rates
All of that is read from game files and not stored in saves...

>>717791390
I like Grunty Industries just on how much the level does NOT want you to be there

>>717794715
yeah but a lot of these games saved to the cartridge so the amount of room allocated for saves would be lessened if you had more game shit to worry about

idk shut up i'm tired and mouthing off about shit i half understand

>>717794213
>>717794639
there's a couple of different save types for the N64, which is why some games can store more than others.
Rare could've used a larger one but they just didn't.
https://micro-64.com/database/gamesave.shtml

Pokemon Red and Blue can store up to 240 Pokemon. Having to keep track of many stats of each, 4 attacks of each, nickname of each, position in box of each and that's just the obvious data. The game has also to keep track of large item lists. And that's all for a Game Boy game. All information that is more complex than a fucking binary information for Banjo Tooie notes.

You are all on drugs if you truly believe Banjo Kazooie couldn't store the fucking information for 900 extra bits per game file.

>>717794213
Now that I think of it this explains the comically small inventory in Paper Mario.

>>717781421 (OP)
I thought that was a bowl of ramen hanging off the side of the boat

>>717795716
You're really bad at math.

>>717795716
I think it's less that a 64 game couldn't do that and more that the way the specific game was made, they weren't able to in that one case.
Of course, I'm just speculating, I have no idea.

I liked this level more than every level in tooie.
Also the part where you gotta play the original Donkey Kong in DK64 SUCKS. The original Donkey Kong is a bad game.

>>717796002
You should repeat second grade, mate. They teach multiplication tables there.

>>717796392
Like I said, you're really bad at math.

>>717781421 (OP)
The only thing that ever holds a RARE back is the mini games usually. And i mean it's usually when it's about racing or something. Donkey Kong 64 has more moments of frustration than this game did.

>>717796476
DK64 has more mini-games than the PS5 has games.

>>717796441
So being wrong about how a save file works hurt you mentally this badly that you now are going to repeat the same empty line back to back so you at least can cope with having the last word.

>>717796179
>original Donkey Kong is a bad game
It has stiff controls and death by jumping from too great a height sucks (even if it is realistic) but it's a classic nonetheless.

>>717796761
Its biggest problem is how annoying character switching is. It's like the Banjo Tooie thing where you have to separate the characters and play each individually for some tasks but 1000 times worse in every single way.

>>717796705
Alright you fucking retard, lemme explain it for you.
Banjo uses a 4 kilobit eeprom.
Pokemon uses a 32 kilobyte sram battery.
rareware cheaped out on memory, so no, it's not possible in this sitation you fucking baboon. it's more than possible, it's just not here because they didn't bother upgrading.

>>717796942
You could have said that from the start homie

>be the best level of the game
>people think you are shit because they keep getting filtered for being shit at vidya and life
>feels bad man

>>717796942
So what did the game use its 4096 bits up for? There are 100 jiggies per game file. Less than 100 flags for shortcuts and general game progression. What else does the save store that uses up all space? We are talking here about the most primitive binary information as well.

Explain exactly what uses up the space that this information couldn't be stored.

>>717797319
Amen, amen

I just played Banjo and DK64 back to back.
I haven't played Tooie yet but plan to next.
So far I'm having a great time. I think I preferred DK64's gameplay and design for the most part. I had a better time getting every banana medal than getting every note. But jiggies were more fun to get than golden bananas on average, so I guess it evens out. (Maybe if there weren't like 50 minigame barrels it would be a clear winner. Fuck Beaver Bother in particular.)

>>717797319
This level is even better if you don't use the train but go trough the roof because it feels like fucking James Bond invading the fucking russians or some shit like that this way.

>>717797268
you're right I could've, I am a retard and was hostile for no reason.
>>717797475
mumbo tokens and shit. If theoretically they were to store note flags with what they were working with, storing the 900 existing ones would be larger than an entire save file by itself.

>>717797589
Based DK64 enjoyer

>>717798196
>mumbo tokens
That's 115x3 more bits reserved for that. What else? There is still plenty left for the notes.
>storing the 900 existing ones would be larger than an entire save file by itself
Only matters if the space is required elsewhere.

>>717781421 (OP)
>"I died a couple times, therefore that means this level is badly designed"?
Because if I don't see the credits roll with 99x lives the game is bad and punished me too hard.