Thread 717908908

>Were not going to use the invincible, flying eagles my friends. Instead were going to travel thousands of miles on foot, through rough terrain and dangerous lands inhabited by orcs, goblins, trolls, undead, giant spiders and evil men. Oh and my best friend betrayed us so he’ll be hunting us down too.
What the absolute FUCK was his problem?

>>717908908 (OP)
They're teying to move in secret, a bunch of flying eagles would attract Sauron and then the fellowship is lost

Wizards are oftentimes portrayed as old grey men because wizardry is a skill one learns through years and years of hardwork and dedication, often rejecting society and even their own mental sanity in order to comprehend the world better through such efforts
It makes sense that a wise old man would value such effortful, challenging endeavors, viewing each one as an opportunity to learn more

I hate how modern media turn wizardry from a craft anyone had access to buy was limited by your ability to dedicate yourself to it, to something magical you are born with the power to pull out of your ass and any 11 year old can do

>>717908908 (OP)
Yes, just fly into the skies above Mordor, where all the Fell Beasts will make a beeline for you.

>>717908908 (OP)
The eagles aren't even close to powerful enough to survive a head on assault

At the Council of Elrond they go over different options. They consider tossing it into the ocean, but then realize that does not fix the Sauron problem and hes still amassing armies, conquering lands, getting new allies. Then somehow the One Ring ends up washing ashore or swallowed by a fish and he gets it anyway. They consider taking it to Gondor briefly to try and use it but nobody can, even Gandalf knows he can’t without compromising himself. Finally they decide on a small mission of 9 fellows traveling covertly to destroy the One Ring. Naturally this comes with its own problems. Sauron and Saruman have spies everywhere and make an effort to deter them or hunt them down. Finally the mission goes down to two Hobbits the best hope they have.

Oh and animals can be affected by Saurons rings power. So it would work on the eagles who would try to divebomb and kill themselves or flip the Fellowship off their backs. Then were back to square one.

>>717908908 (OP)
this game was kino

>>717908908 (OP)
He knew them little hobbits were fatties so he thought a little exercise would do them good.

>>717909452
Doesn't Bilbo, who has the One Ring during the battle of five armies, get knocked out and carried away by eagles? Or am I thinking about something else.

>>717908908 (OP)
He wanted a real challenge

>>717908908 (OP)
>you didn't destroyed the ring

>>717909120
>I hate how modern media turn wizardry from a craft anyone had access to buy was limited by your ability to dedicate yourself to it, to something magical you are born with the power to pull out of your ass and any 11 year old can do
We have tales from the XVIth century of an inquisitor using two prepubescent witches to catch summoners of the devil by using magic vision. Young magicians aren't something super new, the were just used different than Merlin.

>>717909753
The ring's power was very weak at the time. Hence why Bilbo was not affected very much by it for the many decades that he had it. It wasn't really trying to corrupt him, or those around him.

>>717910486
>witches
there's a difference between witchcraft and wizardry, they're two different forms of craft and it's precisely the fact that witches could often be young but wizards couldn't that illustrates their differences

wizardry is a school of dedication, "wizard" literally means someone wise and well learned
witchcraft is a dark craft that steals power and energy from others and relies on contracts with dark beings to allow them to perform the magic more easily while selling away their soul or some other part of them
a witch can be young, a wizard? well, it's possible, unlikely but possible, much like how really advanced kids exists in most fields, but it's near impossible due to how unlikely it is

>>717908908 (OP)
Plot gotta plot nigga

>>717909753
that’s a retcon

>>717908908 (OP)
>invincible
The books never indicate that they're invincible. In fact they go out of the way to point out that the eagles would get spotted and either shot down or Nazgul'd even if they somehow managed to avoid the temptation of the Ring.

>>717909120
>I hate how modern media turn wizardry from a craft anyone had access to buy was limited by your ability to dedicate yourself to it, to something magical you are born with the power to pull out of your ass and any 11 year old can do
Ah, yes, so readily available to everyone magic in Tolkien's books.
You'd like to read Vance, i think.

why didnt harry potter just bring a gun to wizard school?

>>717911559
Apparently modern tech shuts down when you walk into Hogwarts. No zoomer wizard will be able to take a cellphone once he gets sorted.

>>717911530
Do you struggle to read or to comprehend what you read? Where the fuck did I say it's in Tolkien's books?

The ring's a bit shit innit

>>717910486
>an inquisitor using two prepubescent witches to catch summoners of the devil by using magic vision.
Yeah, I'm sure he had them around for their "magic vision".

>>717911639
define "modern tech" it can't be like an EM field or something if it applies to guns, but it can't be anything mechanical either since there's many mechanical things in hogwarts
is it just anything "produced" after a certain year? so what, a kid can't make a little device and have it go through cause it was made in current year? if my quill breaks and i put it together with duct tape is it now a new objects? hell, can i even bring duct tape in, since it was was produced in the factory like a year ago? does all of hogwarts get their robes and quills and stuff made before that year, and everything past it is fine? but how old is that year, guns are ancient, can i just bring in a very old gun?

>>717911672
i never got this BUT thinking on it now i think the wraiths are supposed to protect the ringbearer as an honor guard but most who fall for its allure dont have the strength of will to really be evil enough to command them. just my speculation

>>717912018
It's just that the Ring's temptation is so strong it makes you want it in spite of the clear danger.

>>717913043
yeah, right, "it's magic aint gotta explain shit" - the ""power"" of the ring is desirable because you want it, because it's desirable.

>>717913343
it's desirable because sauron poured his will to dominate Arda into it, it amplifies men's lust for power which is why it had little to no effect on hobbits and good men like aragorn. also, he still held the nine rings and had dominion over the nazgul through them even though the one ring was lost

>>717911672

I think it was my understanding that the ring's power isn't anything in particular. Being in its possession is supposed to make you have an intimidating personality and amplify your qualities, whatever they might be.

Making yourself invisible is just a small portion of its power and I think hobbits benefit particularly of it because they already know how to not call attention to them.

But then again Isildur was shown disappearing by using it in the movies, but I'm not sure if they say such a thing in the books.

>>717908908 (OP)
I remember getting stuck trying to find the entrance to smaugs lair and never completing this

>>717913585
>it amplifies men's lust for power
but since it doesn't actually supply the power whose desire it stands for we're back to the original question - why concretely do men want the ring. what do they expect it will give them. at least, thats what i take lust for power to mean - an expectation that seizing this tool will give a specific power. but all it really does is paint a target on your head. so in terms of what, in the mind of the man who wants it, are they wanting it? and the answer is nothing. or as you put it, drawing perhaps unwittingly but in any case appropriately on the german philosophical tradition, which is never far from discussions of modern european fantasy, the answer has something to do with "will," the "will" that sauron "put into" the ring, somehow... magically. It's magic that makes the will, a nothing, a null point under-girding the theory of the subject that stands only for the fact that it often wants impossible things -- MAGIC makes that nothing into something that can be wanted, even if the narrative explains how it's not something to want at all.

>>717914431
>It's magic that makes the will, a nothing
yes, the lord of the rings is a deeply magical work. Eru is magic, sauron is magic, and his creations are magic. if this is the schizo babble you were looking for then i have nothing more to add.

>>717914431

So, the point of the ring is that it makes itself desirable for the sake of it through magic, is what you're saying? Because I think that is quite clear.

If there's an actual logic to what specific power men look in these rings, I don't think it's ever made clear (on purpose by the author too).

I get the feeling that power and magic in Tolkien's world is very much tied to the very reality of language and words being powerful per se. Gandalf's magic is often just him enunciating his will with such conviction it overrides the fiction's reality, which he is above of. It sort of plays on a meta level with how literature and fiction allows fantasy to exist, Gandalf being a being equivalent to the author of the book.

This way, the ring being desirable and perceived as powerful is a fact because it is written to be as such, by Sauron, who is also powerful on a meta level.

>>717914738
i just think it's interesting how the place where magic intervenes most magically in these stories is, specifically, at a level traditionally defined as metaphysical. like, as everyone pointed out, the overtly magical objects and creatures are weirdly handicapped - you can't just fly the intelligent eagles to your objective, etc - but the places that most defy explanation, and are most in need of "it's magic motherfucker" are things like desire and will which were foundational concepts for the human sciences but which even philosophers inventing them were compelled at one point another to say, again, "it's magic"

>>717908908 (OP)
if you think about the Eye of Sauron like an Obelisk of Light then you don't want to get right in his vision. Also the Nazgul had flying beasts.
I don't know why this is such a common argument. Maybe they could have used the eagles for part of the trip

>>717915312
>I get the feeling that power and magic in Tolkien's world is very much tied to the very reality of language and words being powerful per se. Gandalf's magic is often just him enunciating his will with such conviction it overrides the fiction's reality, which he is above of. It sort of plays on a meta level with how literature and fiction allows fantasy to exist, Gandalf being a being equivalent to the author of the book.
good observation and i completely agree. what i find most interesting, and i admit at this point of my life that's probably more of a personal hobby horse than a world-historical conspiracy, is that fictions use metaphysical concepts like will to introduce "author-like" powers to the characters. it shows that the authors think of metaphysics as a place where they can listen to god.

>>717915794
i mean, could they not have done some recon looking for the ringbearer, at least? the guy with the actual important object pisses off with his chubby friend and they're like "dang"

gandalf should have said "don't worry we have air support" and had that canoe's location in 20 mins or less, given the hobbits a firm spanking, and carried on

>>717915794
Because people are fucking retards.

Tolkien even explains this shit IN THE FUCKING BOOKS. BLATANTLY SPELLS IT OUT FOR ALL THE FUCKING RETARDS.

>>717908908 (OP)
Trying to use the eagles to fly into Mordor is like if Japan tried to invade North Korea by riding in on wild dolphins. They have no reason to comply with the plan and would get shot immediately.

>>717915312
>>717914431
>>717913585
>>717913343
>>717915863

skip to about 11 minutes

>magic is the coercion of the world

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkmNHP58OhU

>>717914431
>>717913585
>>717915312
Skip to 11 mins

>Magic is coercion of the world
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkmNHP58OhU

>>717909753
From what I remember he just gets bonk'd at the very start of the battle and just wakes up after everything's over, but it's been like two decades since I've read the book so I might be wrong

>>717916064
>>717916240
>mass reply
>reddit spacing
>double post
>doesn't know how to link to a particular time in a video

>>717915863
You've been probably thinking about this a for a long time, so it's a bit hard to follow exactly what you mean. But in any case I also think that fiction and literature are ways in which man can aspire to be truly ethereal and beyond what meets the eye. I think Jung and Campbell already touched on this, but i completely buy the thing about Religion being just very good fictions that transcend conventional truth giving purpose, cohesion and a story that's necessary for our species to exist and progress.

>>717915312
>I get the feeling that power and magic in Tolkien's world is very much tied to the very reality of language and words
Thats how it is considering they sang the entire universe into existence.

>>717916515
>Thats how it is considering they sang the entire universe into existence.

Yeah it's quite on the nose if you read the Sylmarillion and know a bit about Tolkien being a Language academic.

In any case it's interesting to see how much it affects and informs everything in its world. The ring is thought to be powerful and desirable because Sauron willed it to be seen as such, and this defies any external logic by men OR readers. Only apathetic species like Hobbits or very powerful beings like Elves and Wizards can see through it and challenge it somewhat.

It also justifies Gandalf powers being limited just to tip the scale enough so drama and bravery have a chance to bloom in men, which would otherwise be completely lost in darkness and corruption. No, the eagles won't do a thing because men are supposed to struggle and win, not just win. This is the will of Eru, for some reason. As would be the will of Tolkien's Catholic God.

The one ring is for bitches, real men make their own Silmarils

>>717916415
i guess it's sort of like, literature is borrowing from metaphysics to give an analogy of what magic is like. "magic is sort of like will," literature says. it needs to say that analogy because magic doesn't exist in reality, people don't already know what it's like.

psychologists do the same thing: a "self" is kind of like a subject, that familiar concept we know from metaphysics.

the problem is that metaphysicians originally gave stacked analogies, too: a will is kind of like... uhm... a ray of light that directs the subject toward its object...? something like that...? and a subject is... uh,..,. a kind of depthless reservoir of unlimited nothingness? yes, the light sort of beams out of that...does that, uh, make any sense?

>>717909753
I've only read the book but he gets knocked out with the ring on. He survives the battle because no one can see him and wakes up confused as to why no one acknowledges his presence until he figures it out. No mention of eagles so that must be something else

>>717909452
>animals can be affected by Saurons rings power. So it would work on the eagles
Great eagles like Gwaihir are not animals, they are spirits bound to Manwë and Valinor. As we know, Maia can be corrupted by Rings of power, sure. So it might've been possible to corrupt an eagle too. But calling them animals is incorrect.
Also Thorondor who was an ancient king to the eagles was able to wound Melkor. Of course he would've been the strongest of them ever, but I don't think Fell beasts could've actually stood against even the lesser eagles of third age.

It's been a while since I read the books, but this is laid out at the council of Elrond, strength alone isn't gonna cut it, this is a stealth mission
Same reason Glorfindel didn't get chosen,and that dude, even diminished, is an out of context problem for most of middle earth.

>>717917546
They eat, sleep, procreate, roost and act like eagles beyond a slightly increased level of awareness and sapience. They’re animals.

>>717914008
What? This game is level-based

>tfw zoomers won't ever experience this on a big screen with dozens of people losing their shit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POdknqszMDY

Movies suck such cock nowadays it's not even funny. The lotr videogames were tight too.

That Tolkien quote about evil makes me feel personally alienated from his work.

>>717920171
As sad as it sounds and dont quote me on it but a new trilogy of LOTR movies will arrive before we all die. It just makes sense because there really isnt anything left to do but remake shit. Nobody is gonna see that Hunt for Gollum prequel and the Rings of Power bombed.

>>717920232
How come?

>>717920281
Either he's wrong or I'm not evil.

>>717920251

What I want for new generations is to get an equivalent of this. Something this good, but not just MORE TOLKIEN MOVIES.

The point of these movies is that it was an honest creative endeavor and a huge risk, and it paid off.

Media nowadays has become so unhype it's surreal.

>>717920312
I think it's a vision of that concept that works for him and his world. It's not necessarilly phylosophically sound.

>>717920469
Philosophy is for nerdphobes who refuse to entertain matrix theory anyway.

>>717909753
Why are you people so fucking stupid? The eagles are not flying to bumfuck nowhere like in the case of Bilbo, they're flying directly to Mordor. If they tried that strategy Sauron himself could have flied to the eagles, killed them and take the ring from the hobbits away. He wouldn't even need any tricks.

>>717920412
Media is run by greedy assholes who go for a quick buck. Even when all the dudes born in the 1940s running Hollywood die off its not like the 80s-90s generations will do any better.

>>717920521
Based schizoposter. Listen, I unironically think the Matrix theory combined with brain-in-a-vat solipsism makes more sense than whatever the hell modern "philosophy" departments are doing. At least it's fun. Trying to debate ontology with someone who name-drops Hegel every 3 sentences is the real evil.

>>717911672
>I simply would not be dominated by the ring
t. a retard who probably stares at his phone 20 hours a day tanking constant psychic damage and wondering why people would call him a radical.