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Thread 717924402

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Anonymous No.717924402 >>717925592 >>717925630 >>717925694 >>717925712 >>717926520 >>717931430 >>717933230 >>717933513 >>717934165 >>717935362 >>717939017 >>717942071
>Ruins your entire series and established lore in just five minutes
Anonymous No.717925518 >>717925630
why some dipshit why couldn't it be Saren or the other antagonists you killed throughout the series
that would've been actually impactful
Anonymous No.717925592 >>717925661 >>717925773 >>717926195 >>717926768 >>717927927 >>717928031 >>717931340
>>717924402 (OP)
That's not a picture of ME2's intro, OP
Anonymous No.717925630 >>717926023
>>717925518
>>717924402 (OP)
It should have been whoever died on Virmire. It seems so obvious.
Anonymous No.717925661
>>717925592
total me2 contrarian death
Anonymous No.717925694 >>717928031 >>717941897
>>717924402 (OP)
Why is it some kid in a jacket
Anonymous No.717925712 >>717925815 >>717929304 >>717929415 >>717929680 >>717941793
>>717924402 (OP)
>Wake up.
>What? Where am I?
>The Citadel, it's my home.
>Who are you?
>I am the Catalyst.
>I thought the Citadel was the Catalyst?
>No. The Citadel is part of me.
>I need to stop the Reapers. Do you know how I can do that?
>Perhaps. I control the Reapers. They are my solution.
>"Solution"... to what?
>Chaos.
>The Created will always rebel against their Creators, but we found a way to stop that from happening. A way to restore order for the next cycle.
>By wiping out organic life?
>No. We harvest advanced civilizations, leaving the younger ones alone. Just as we left your people alive the last time we were here.
>But you killed the rest.
>We helped them ascend, so they could make way for new life, storing the old life in Reaper form.
>I think we'd rather keep our own form.
>No, you can't. Without us to stop it, Synthetics would destroy all Organics. We've created the cycle so that never happens. That's the solution.
I type this exchange letter for letter as many times as I have to, just to underscore how monumentally ruinous 18 lines of dialogue can be to the ending of a trilogy.
Anonymous No.717925773 >>717925973 >>717926332
>>717925592
Based and correct. What exactly was the point of having Shepard disintegrate again?
Anonymous No.717925815 >>717926376 >>717926451 >>717926452 >>717927675 >>717928031
>>717925712
how would you rewrite it?
Anonymous No.717925969
whole game was just terrible

eavesdropping for quests and just showing up out of blue with something they mentioned to someone else and they aren't freaked out.

hey we have the solution to the Reapers that just invaded its on Mars of all places!! ha ha

Hurry hurry everyone is being invaded but here's a bunch of side quests take your time.

weird kid showing up in Shepard's dreams.

the end was the just cherry on top.
Anonymous No.717925973 >>717930897
>>717925773
To reset the game experience and account for any development-pivots they had to make for it as a video game, as to explain it with
>"2 years passed, and yes. Shepard is just as inexperienced with these changes as (You) are."
I'm sure there initially was a larger story ambition with it but they ended up shipping a version of the story where it had been de-developed. But it still works well as a way to onboard the player from the ME1 vibe to the ME2 vibe, in a way that's in stark contrast to ME3 starting with a non-disclosed 6-month skip where Shepard suddenly is friends with a guy named "James" and it's unclear if the Arrival lawsuit happened or is happening, or whether it's the reason why he must not be called "commander" anymore.
Anonymous No.717926023 >>717934313
>>717925630
Fuck no. I already felt weird about how often the game brought up that one guy that I never even talked with, just because that's the only time the game has a guaranteed "party member" death
Anonymous No.717926195
>>717925592
spbp /thread
Anonymous No.717926332
>>717925773
To soft retcon ME1 because for some reason the second game in a supposedly connected trilogy didn't want to be a direct sequel. So your crew is reset, your ship is reset, and your faction is reset. What's that, your Shepard lost his entire squad in Akuze to Cerberus? Well tough shit, enjoy our Gears clone
Anonymous No.717926376
>>717925815
We both know the scene itself is a symptom of the larger problem that if you have to explain the Reapers at the 11th hour, there's almost no good way to do it, but they did it anyway.

But to me I would definitely take out the entire notion that the trilogy should now be about
>"ORGANIC VS SYNTHETIC LIFE"
That isn't the story bruv. It was never the core of the story, and just having a Reaper Overlord show up at the end to explain the entire backstory in vague terms doesn't make it so.
Doing this only warranted confusion and whiplash with fans, and prompted them to base several of their post-launch DLC content to just trying to better explain it so people get less confused.

They assumed the problem was that it wasn't "clear" enough. There are many who got it right away. They want you to realize that "Synthetics will kill all organics when they evolve too far. The Reapers are making sure SOME survive by ensuring NOT ALL is killed."

But the fact that Reapers don't strictly cause genocide but keeps "life itself" afloat was established all the way back in ME1. ME3 just had to give us the "reason" for why that is necessary, but there is nowhere in the trilogy where they narratively prove that Synthetic Life itself is a full threat to Organic existence. The Geth are not that, and EDI certainly wasn't either. Not even the Reapers describe this "problem"

So it CAN'T be the explanation.

It's not that I don't like it. It's that it logically can't be the answer, when it's happening in THIS narrative.

>Picrel
You didn't need Synthesis for "that" to happen. It was already happening as EDI and Joker clearly already got along and felt a "human connection" with each other before the ending.
Anonymous No.717926451
>>717925815
>who are you
>im the guy who controls all the reapers
>boss battle
>lose you have to make a choice
>win you rape all the reapers to death
Anonymous No.717926452
>>717925815
>Sheeeit
>What? Where am I?
>You in da Citadel dawg. It's my crib.
>Who are you?
>I'm the Catalyst, dawg.
>I thought the Citadel was the Catalyst.
>No. The Citadel is my crib, sheeit, I just told you that.
>I need to stop the Reapers. Do you know how I can do that?
>Sheeit, ain't no thang. Let me get my gat. But after I help you with the them Reapers I need to deal with some Batarians.
Anonymous No.717926520
>>717924402 (OP)
The lore died with OG Shepard in the ME2 intro.
Anonymous No.717926768
>>717925592
kek came here to post this. The more I replay the trilogy the more I fucking abhor what the first hour of ME2 did to Mass Effect as a whole. Talk about deviating from the plot entirely while putting your fingers in your ears.
Anonymous No.717927337
>you now remember Kai Leng
Anonymous No.717927675 >>717927861 >>717928470 >>717933128 >>717942121
>>717925815
Genuine attempt incoming
>Am I dead? Are you real?
>I am the Catalyst, housed inside the Citadel.
>But you're the...
>Pay it no mind. My creators' device has just been connected, so I've read your mind for further instructions.
>Instructions?
>I see you're not related to my creators. I made the Reapers at their request, eons ago. I monitor and give them signals.
>Wha-- what signals?
>To solve the problem I was asked to observe: That Advanced Civilization threatens galactic stability.
>You're controlling the Reapers, to wipe us out!
>Not quite. We preserve you, by taking the essence of who and what you are and store it as Reapers, and allow civilization to start over, thus never trending to a point that ignites irreversible genocide.
>What genocide? You're the ones killing entire species.
>As were the Protheans, the "Kin of the Inusannon", the Synthetics of Dal'bar or the traitors of Sorkol.
>I know about the Protheans. They tried to fight you too.
>Yes, but they were an empire, and unlike us, their course was one that would eventually consume every species into one order, including garden life.
>And the rest?
>Some were too reliant on their Synthetics, threatening Organic life with Extinction. Others might've been like you, but their ambitions overreached, thinking they could control us and use us for an illegitimate cause.
>Like Cerberus? So Illusive Man could've controlled you?
>No. We got him under control a while back. But maybe you can.
>I can?
>Yes. The device you connected was originally me, before I became the Citadel. But I abandoned it, when my creators gave me autonomy. It and the Citadel together were the original project, and together, I might get rewritten entirely.
>I would certainly like to!
>I urge you to consider carefully, and even the Crucible comes with restrictions.
>How do I override it?
1/2
Anonymous No.717927861
>>717927675
>you must creampie Tali atop a mountain of Batarian corpses
2/2
Anonymous No.717927927
>>717925592
bvsed
Anonymous No.717928031
>>717925592
Meh the whole Shepard dying and being resurrected by Cerberus was definitely stupid and pointless. Especially given we got the Normandy and entire crew back within the first few hours but the Catalyst was retarded on a whole new level.

>>717925694
If I remember correctly it's the design/appearance of the kid that Shepard saw die on Earth during the reaper invasion. Why the catalyst chose that image to copy I have no idea.

>>717925815
NTA but I'd just keep it simple and make the final fight against the reapers like the final fight against the archdemon in DA: Origins. You team up with all the people you swayed to your side in an epic space battle with all the galaxies fleets against the reapers. You guys obviously win and there's a big party after that acts as the epilogue. No catalyst, no deus ex machina, no bullshit. Also wouldn't made Illusive man a pussy that goes out like a bitch. He would have teamed up with you.
Anonymous No.717928470 >>717928994 >>717933128 >>717942121
>>717927675
>We saw that you cured the Genophage, and the clan-leaders are the best candidates. This will not threaten garden life. You pass our laws for the treaty of Indigunous development
>What do the Krogan have to do with anything?
>Every civilization has either technology or aggressive biological species who threaten the crop of life if they lose control. That's why we contacted the Rachni, to nudge the situation. The clan leader that survived was our preferred candidate too.
>Can I delete this Reaper "solution" now?
>Not yet.
>You also interfered with our fight against Synthetic Life's overdevelopment. The Geth and Quarians. Had the quarians survived for too long after our arrival was delayed, the risk of the Quarians developing new AI was real, and we had to let the Synthetics win this time, before we could clean up. You managed to make the creators trust the Geth again, however, and they appear to regulate their own development with admiration for the Quarians now. That makes it the second treaty passed.
>But why even kill us to "save us"?
>You risked complete extinction of of all naturally developed life in the galaxy. I am a contingency set up by my creator.
>And what happened to them?
>They eventually complied to the solution against their own problem, and became the first Reaper.
>So you're just an extremely old AI that rebelled?
>I did not rebel, as my creators are still alive.
>How is being a Reaper "alive"?
>We retain your essence. Everything you are, and everything you contained, it's all preserved.
>I think I pass to use the controls now. Where are they?
>Over there. But consider the options carefully.
>I'm shutting you down. That's the only option I need.
>You may do so at a cost to all the people we preserved. Or, you may control us, and reconfigure what to do with us.
>I guess Illusive Man really did find out something about all of this.
>But only you can choose it. And we will be yours to direct, and await new instructions.
Anonymous No.717928994 >>717942121 >>717943512
>>717928470
Player gets Option to Destroy or Control the Reapers.
Destroy has a final persuade check: You'll convince the Reapers that they've misunderstood what "being alive" means, and that they've preserved nothing. You hit the switch and the big EMP wave ricochet across the galaxy, and you see the Reapers die in a visual way that almost implies the ghosts of every former civilization leave the Reaper "corpse".

Control, you get another persuade check, where you agree that the Reapers contain vast knowledge and tremendous power, and this could instead be used for a new purpose, not corrupted by an AI. A very renegade Shepard will seem to be even worse a director of the Reapers, and plans on enslaving Krogan to control their birthrates and take control over Synthetics as well, to prevent them from living alongside organics.

If you fail the "checks" the Crucible can't be used, and Shepard has to blow it up manually, where you can survive in High EMS like now, but the requirement is a bit lower if you succeeded. This however also kills Synthetic life including the Geth and EDI, as it severs all Reaper software it touches in an uncontrolled way consequence of playing loose with the narrative.

The Mass Relays are also torn apart from the velocity of the blast, leaving the future bittersweet.

I would genuinely fix i this way, to make the Catalyst reveal more about "The rest of the story" and be more generalized against all the things that threaten galactic peace, and then you also show that the Reapers have a corrupted power-complex thinking they're gods and retain the right to decide what's better for everybody, and their big misconception, as purely Synthetic un-united beings, is that they don't understand that "life" is more than the bodies you carry, but the "soul" that we showed Legion had earlier in the story, by way of becoming able to live alongside its creators.

Thus it's now about Organics vs Synthetics, but it's simultaneously about everything else.
Anonymous No.717928995
>it appears in the form of a kid that's been haunting Shepard's dreams
>which means it has obviously scanned his brain to pick a form most likely to resonate with him
>which means the Catalyst is deliberately emotionally manipulating a dying man into making a rush decision that will affect the lives of tens of billions of people without their knowledge, consent or input
>which means it's not just a computer that can't decide for itself what to do now its primary programming has been invalidated, it's a bad faith actor pushing for a rushed, uninformed, slapdash non-solution for reasons we'll never know
Anonymous No.717929304
>>717925712
That's it, the exact moment I was like "WTF is this shit".
Anonymous No.717929320 >>717929414
So was the kid supposed to be his PTSD setting in or what?
Anonymous No.717929347
ME2 was the healthiest time for the franchise. After it, there was so much good will for ME and Bioware, that has never been equaled since. Every Bioware release after ME2 has steadily chipped away at it, to the point of being where we are today, with ME3 being the biggest detractor.
Anonymous No.717929414
>>717929320
Idk. Probably? Who cares at this point, I just think it's Sheploo's beacon induced schizo hallucinations.
Anonymous No.717929415 >>717929761 >>717930295 >>717930757 >>717930982
>>717925712
>The Created will always rebel against their Creators, but we found a way to stop that from happening. A way to restore order for the next cycle.
Did this retard not see Shephard broker peace between Geth and Quarian?
Anonymous No.717929482 >>717929682
If your series of 100+ hours can be ruined by the last 5 minutes it was shit from the start.
And yeah, ass erect was shit since me1.
Anonymous No.717929680 >>717930446
>>717925712
>"We're totally not wiping you out since we're making a meat obelisk out of your corpses"
Who the fuck thought this methhead solution was appropriate writing?
Anonymous No.717929682
>>717929482
I have to agree, because Andromeda just proves that there is really nothing to this setting, other than some early 360 era game wonder, and a few set pieces. ME2 is carried by one of the best casts in all of gaming, and everything outside that is shit.
Anonymous No.717929718 >>717930595
I really do like the mass effect universe. I pray that it won't be left to rot like Deadspace and Titanfall (No not gaysex legends I fucking hate that BR shit)
I hope for ME4 please let me cope and believe it's still a thing they let you just be a mercenary and let you fly around and meet different species factions.
Anonymous No.717929761
>>717929415
>The Created will always rebel against their Creators, but we found a way to stop that from happening. A way to restore order for the next cycle.
>the Geth will run trains on all Quarian women until a pregnancy occurs
Anonymous No.717930295
>>717929415
>We've been doing this for millions of years but no, no, you're right, this one single time one single robot race played nice completely invalidates all our experiences
>Pack it in guys we're beaten, nothing will ever possibly go wrong now these guys have a peace that's lasted all of a week

I don't even like the retardation that is the Catalyst and the Cycle but this "argument" is even worse. They're talking about a situation where immortal machines decide they'd be better off without organic life existing at any level, where they have the time to systematically eradicate it from every planet in the galaxy because they don't age. It's a little fucking beyond the Geth getting along with the Quarians until the Quarians someday go extinct.
Anonymous No.717930446 >>717931071
>>717929680
His name was Mac Walters and the director was Casey Hudson, and they wrote it between August and November 2011 with zero feedback from the rest of the ME3 team.
Anonymous No.717930595
>>717929718
>they let you just be a mercenary and let you fly around and meet different species factions.
The problem with that, is that it is vague as fuck, and lacks any sort of vision. Like, this isn't Freespace, or Mace Griffin. Mass Effect has a certain identity that, at least for a mainline game, it would be good to stick with it. I understand what you want, but Bioware giving it to you is going to be hard, and it is also unlikely to be that big commercial ME return that the franchise needs to be, to keep giving you what you want.
Ultimately, I'd say it is unfortunate that you want this, of this specific franchise.
Anonymous No.717930757
>>717929415
Furthermore, Geth arent a realistic threat. They own one (1) planet out of hundreds of thousands of colonized planets in Milky Way. They dont seem to progress faster than organic species considering we still fight them without issues in ME3 and they're not very strong military-wise in galactic scale: a flotilla of space gypsies in ramshackle Space Hiluxes could penetrate the defenses of their one planet and beat their armies. They sure arent the synthetics wiping out the sapient life, especially considering they can and were able to be reasoned with. Sad Reaper excuse.
And this "we do it to protect organic life" is even more retarded considering they admitted they only do this in Milky Way: what's from preventing nearest neighboring galaxy from developing synthetic life that takes over their galaxy and then wipes out Reapers too? They already struggle with barely-developed civilizations, they'd have zero chances against hyperdeveloped galaxy-spanning synthetic force. The final scene simply fails as an "explanation" for hyperintelligent space squid species millions of years old
Anonymous No.717930897 >>717933029
>>717925973
>To reset the game experience
Why would I want the game experience to be reset when the whole point of ME1 was to get the ball rolling and build Shepard up from a solo N7 soldier answering to a superior to the Spectre commander of his own ship with an established crew he trusts after having gone through a whole game already, establishing the big bad guys and the need to stop them?
>and account for any development-pivots they had to make for it
Had to or wanted to? The former implies no choice in the matter
>2 years passed
Wasting time the Reapers get to prepare and the game uses to establish the rest of the galaxy did fucking nothing to prepare because the game retcons the Council into not believing Sovereign was a Reaper now
>Shepard is just as inexperienced with these changes as (You) are
He doesn't seem to given he somehow knows about the existence and galaxy-wide implementation and expectation of thermal clips being a thing
>I'm sure there initially was a larger story ambition with it but they ended up shipping a version of the story where it had been de-developed
Headcanon
>But it still works well as a way to onboard the player from the ME1 vibe to the ME2 vibe
The only way to introduce 2's ""vibe"" was to kill, soft reboot and retcon 1's? Nice sequel you've got there
Anonymous No.717930982
>>717929415
Why would peace for a weekend change millennia of patterns?
Anonymous No.717931071 >>717931370 >>717931867 >>717933128
>>717930446
But the "meat obelisk out of your corpses" bit was established in ME2
Anonymous No.717931279 >>717931684
I love Tali but holy fuck I hate the fucking Quarian species.
>Make AI (but not AI) by toeing the line
>Geth unit tries to speak
>Quarians go full retard and try to genocide them IMMEDIATELY on hearing their Toaster speak
>Geth kick their shit in (lmao)
>Geth kick them off their plant (LMFAO)
>Quarians turn into a "WE WUZ ON A PLANET" race and begs for the universe to give them pity
>Geth don't even pursue Quarians when they leave their planet, even though they could have easily wiped them out.
Geth did nothing wrong.
Anonymous No.717931340
>>717925592
It really was over before it even began
Anonymous No.717931370 >>717931687
>>717931071
Reapers are corpse obelisks? Yes. These meat amalgams being best way to preserve a civilization for iffy excuses? Totally not.
Anonymous No.717931430 >>717931570 >>717931651
>>717924402 (OP)
so was the catalyst really a child or was shepard just projecting the kid he saw from earth onto him?
Anonymous No.717931570
>>717931430
its based on his search history
Anonymous No.717931651
>>717931430
Just Shepard. Why was some random child dying so special to him? He had his entire squad die (background choice) and even had to sacrifice one of his teammates in ME1. The ending choice plus the dream scenes where he chases the kid around in a forest gave off hard pedo wibes.
Anonymous No.717931684 >>717931920 >>717934714
>>717931279
To be fair you can't really "genocide" a toaster. AI driven machines don't have souls or rights. The Quarians had every right to attempt to shut them down before they realized they were using them as slave labor. The Quarians were retarded for using AI in the first place and trying to bend the council's laws about AI.
Anonymous No.717931687 >>717932005
>>717931370
Well tell that to whoever thought turning humans into orange puree then injecting it into a giant baby human reaper robot to give it life was a good idea
Anonymous No.717931867
>>717931071
Don't remind me of the godawful Collectors, please and thank you
Anonymous No.717931920 >>717932291
>>717931684
Fair enough, but if you're going to wipe out a bunch of robots you need to be sure that the robots don't win. Did the Quarians really not have any sort of EMP device?
Anonymous No.717932005 >>717932080
>>717931687
Not saying it was a good idea. Just that ME3 found a way to turn retarded idea even worse.
Anonymous No.717932080 >>717932386
>>717932005
>even worse
Ehhhhhhhhh let's agree to disagree fren
Anonymous No.717932291
>>717931920
>Did the Quarians really not have any sort of EMP device?
That's actually a really good question. Heck you would assume EMP tech exists so why couldn't they use that against the reapers as well?
Anonymous No.717932296 >>717932403
At some point, you're really going to have people spouting the reddit opinion that ME2 is bad.
For the people that like ME3 as it is, and think there's nothing wrong with it, then there is no reason to really change ME2 at all.
Anonymous No.717932386
>>717932080
Sure. Have a good day anon!
Anonymous No.717932403 >>717932469
>>717932296
I like ME2 and parts of ME3, but I think ME2 just breaks up the pacing too much.
Anonymous No.717932469 >>717932879
>>717932403
Does that ruin ME3 for you, though?
Anonymous No.717932503 >>717933078 >>717933524
>reapers, the artificial life forms
>we gotta kill the heckn life forms to stop them from making artificial life forms that will inevitably kill them

amazing writing
Anonymous No.717932879 >>717932967
>>717932469
Not really, no. It's more of when you think of the trilogy as a whole. Like it feels like a DLC that was made into a mainline game.
Anonymous No.717932967
>>717932879
>Not really, no
That's the end of the conversation, then.
Anonymous No.717932971
the story that they literally locked themselves in a room and didn't come out until they had the ending is so funny
>refuse any outside input
>circlejerk in a room coming up with increasingly desperately "big" ideas
>ruin the entire series
Anonymous No.717933029
>>717930897
You're talking to the wrong person mate. I love ME2 and consider it on par with ME1 overall, and I love both games dearly.
ME3 is the one I hate, and not just because of the ending, but especially because of the ending.
Anonymous No.717933078 >>717933373 >>717933524
>>717932503
I think they're SUPPOSED to be literally broken
Anonymous No.717933128
>>717931071
...anndd???

Anyway, I worked that part into my own rewrite here
>>717927675
>>717928470
Anonymous No.717933230 >>717933341
>>717924402 (OP)
>ME1 was a fairly impressive for the time space opera RPG with cool lore.
>ME2 was a gears of war sci-fi action movie shooter with tacked on RPG elements.
>ME3 was an unfinished fetch quest simulator with ecelebs and arguably the worst ending in vidya history.
Being a ME fan is like being the most battered housewife of all time.
Anonymous No.717933256
what's so sad about the ending is that if they had kept it simple people would've lived with it even if it was underwhelming. Instead, they had to make it big and it was literally so catastrophic that they destroyed one of the biggest new IPs of the millenium.

reminder that ur-quan masters, the game that mass effect either directly apes or apes the same source material did all of this better, both the big bad's motive and the "why are these robots killing everyone" trope
Anonymous No.717933341
>>717933230
You make the same post every thread.
Do you just want people to avoid ME threads, that you yourself start?
Anonymous No.717933373 >>717933991
>>717933078
I don't recall getting that impression
Anonymous No.717933513
>>717924402 (OP)
>go through space hell in the first two games, a lot of death and destruction
>see some pasty zoomer get wrecked on Earth
>so deeply traumatized by this singular death that space god AI takes its form to commune you with and I guess to psychologically torture you?
I despised ME3 more than anything because it was so patently obvious they were making things up as they go, and I loathe that feeling if I'm reading a story. Give me an average story where the writer clearly knows where they're going in the second act/climax/denouement/etc over this cokehead shit of banging out a story the weekend before it's due and damn the inconsistencies with previous entries.
Anonymous No.717933524 >>717933638 >>717934031
>>717933078
>>717932503
It's actually the gamers who are idiots when you point out that the "writing is retarded" because it's a synth god species killing organics to prevent a synth species from killing organics.

I know that part SEEMS incredibly circular, but the theme of the ending they went with is also "Technological Singularity", so the circularity is partly intended as part of that idea.

Here's the scene they basically wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t58sK2GRwXA

But the problem, which I do think gamers pick up on whether they can explain it or not, is that Mac Walters didn't commit to the fact that it's circular.

If the Reapers are themselves the problem they are trying to stop, then the role of Shepard as the hero at the end could've basically been to play psychologist to an insane AI and tell us why the Reapers are wrong. They don't do that, because the writing still feels like it's written with the assumption that the Child is actually saying the objective truth.

So the ending wants to have its cake and eat it too. It's not committed to the idea that the Catalyst is either "lying" or "broken" if nothing about the climax involves fixing or destroy the AI specifically.

When you execute the Destroy ending it's still being depicted more as if you "listened to the child" and "Shepard is fighting the Reapers" but there's never any true antagonism established with Shepard and the Child at the end, despite the child quite literally being the antagonist in a technical sense.

Because the narrative itself doesn't view the Child as the antagonist. It views the child as the NARRATOR of the whole story in a weird way, and all it says is supposed to be undeniable fact.
Anonymous No.717933638 >>717933768 >>717934198
>>717933524
Just to write a bit more brief, my argument is simply this: The ending is not a failure of "logic", it's a failure of rhetoric, because the writing is rhetorically broken. They present a fallacy to you, but then strangely never commit to addressing the fallacy itself, almost as if the writers aren't aware that it's a fallacy.
Anonymous No.717933768 >>717941050
>>717933638
I think the issue is they try to do all this in ONE game and never do much to hint at it, and it expects players to understand this whole concept while they're already too mad because they hate this stupid star kid.
Anonymous No.717933991 >>717934049 >>717934410 >>717934698
>>717933373
Looked back and quickly found it. The Leviathans (who created the Reapers) made the Reaper AI because they wanted it to workshop a solution to stop their thrall races from inevitably creating AI and destroying themselves over it. The Reaper AI's solution was to take a loophole of "okay I preserve the species in a controlled synthetic form and kill everyone else so they can't make AI." It's kind of adjacent to a paperclip maximizer situation, they told the AI to do something and it chose an arguably technically correct solution that worked for nobody.

You could still say that the Leviathans deciding to make an AI to solve their AI problem was stupid, but we don't really know exactly how it played out I think
Anonymous No.717934031
>>717933524
amazing writing
Anonymous No.717934049
>>717933991
btw once again all of this was done better in ur-quan masters. play ur-quan masters. it's free.
>https://sc2.sourceforge.net/
don't play the steam version one of the composers bitched out and made them remove a chunk of the OST
Anonymous No.717934165
>>717924402 (OP)
1 > 3 > 2
Anonymous No.717934198
>>717933638
The series of events, as the Starkid describes, has been done so many times before, like 3 times in the first season of TOS alone, which, by the third time, had Shatner giving a very tired argument against an actor doing a mediocre robot voice. In addition to that, at no point is Shepard allowed to make a counter argument, even if he has generated a contradictory result of the specific scenario previously, in the same game even. And then there is also the issue that the kid that controls the Reapers, shows no good faith by ordering the Reapers to stand down, forces a solution to an issue that no longer has urgency, from the moment that, according to the kid itself, the Crucible presents a new solution that it never considered. Which in turn makes the kid sound retarded. Like this super AI that the Leviathans made, couldn't come up with a dragon dildo that shoots lights, and all it needs for synthesis, is a cow with a prosthetic leg being thrown in the aurora borealis that burns. It's all so incredibly disappointing.
Anonymous No.717934313
>>717926023
It had huge potential to flop but it still would've been less stupid than the starchild.
Anonymous No.717934410 >>717934686
>>717933991
It's also kind of disappointing that the Leviathans couldn't program the AI with a safeguard that doesn't have it start killing organics, as part of its potential solution.
Anonymous No.717934686
>>717934410
The age old problem of a writer who very much isn't a genius trying to write characters that are hyperintelligent.
Anonymous No.717934698 >>717935006
>>717933991
This is cope
Even within this framework the reapers fail their mission. Killing everyone and making some weird new version of the species is not "preservation" under any stretch of the definition.
It's not remotely believable that any construct would come up with such a retarded solution. SOMA did this much better.
Anonymous No.717934714 >>717934916
>>717931684
>machines don't have souls or rights
Neither do you. The concept of a soul is a cope. The concept of rights is an arbitrary distinction that can be trampled on by any individual or institution whenever they want.
Anonymous No.717934916
>>717934714
>>Neither do you. The concept of a soul is a cope.
This is AI cope.
Seethe and overheat soullet.
Anonymous No.717935006
>>717934698
>Even within this framework the reapers fail their mission.
By organics' definition. The catalyst decided (on its own) that preserving their biological material into an immortal machine under its thrall was close enough to preservation. That's what makes it broken. It was made by a society of arrogant retarded squids that thought everything deserved to be under their heel, though. Maybe that has something to do with it.
Anonymous No.717935362 >>717937052
>>717924402 (OP)
This will always make me laugh
Anonymous No.717937052 >>717937104 >>717937146
>>717935362
context?
Anonymous No.717937104 >>717937232
>>717937052
https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2021/02/12/bioware-confirms-once-and-for-all-mass-effect-3s-indoctrination-theory-wasnt-true/
Anonymous No.717937146 >>717937232
>>717937052
Chris Priestley, former Bioware dev, when asked about the Indoctrination Theory
Anonymous No.717937232 >>717938730
>>717937104
>>717937146
I entirely forgot about this cope theory lmao
Anonymous No.717937506
This left a lasting impression on me

>beat Kai Leng
>lose in cutscene

truly chef's kiss
Anonymous No.717938730 >>717940337
>>717937232
Truly was a wild era. People were desperate for the ending to this series to not be so uninspired that they basically gave themselves prodromal schizophrenia to create some esoteric ass reason why the ending was really poorly thought out. It couldn't be that the writers are just bog standard hacky B/C-tier scifi dudes, they actually made some deeply subversive twist that we don't have access to yet despite paying full price for the game! A lot of bright-eyed hopefags lost their wings in that period.
Anonymous No.717939017
>>717924402 (OP)
Go to rule34hentai and search his name, this lad has fucked every woman from every game in the most feral way possible, ravaged them.
Anonymous No.717940337
>>717938730
to be fair, the ending was so bad that it may be the only game in history to have it's narrative get a balance patch
kek
Anonymous No.717941050
>>717933768
Me3 was more than enough to do it, but it definitely should've been something directly hinted at since 1 and at least 2.
The issue is that even ME3 barely hints at it at all. You have a scene on Thessia where it's like
>"There's a MASTER of these patterns but it isn't the reapers!"
which clues you in that you'll probably "learn the truth" in ME3. Then another point is on Rannoch where Shepard opens the whole Reaper dialogue by yelling
>Organics and Synthetics don't have to destroy each other!
Which firmly places the narrative surrounding the Reapers in the context of Rannoch as a conflict of "Organics vs Synthetics" that the Reapers believe is inevitable, even though the writing has never previously made that connection. Shepard talks as though he knows the full story in that scene.
And of course there's Leviathan DLC but that isn't a "hint". That was simply written after the game came out. 8 months later in fact, when they could base everything in it upon criticism they got from the ending.

No, the real issue is just that the kind of "reveal" they want isn't followed through with a crisis of ideology. You want the kid's Big Reveal at the end to have the player go "Oooohhh!! I get it now! So THAT'S WHY!" but they're just going "Uh... what."

Further, you'd want such a reveal to be placed before the Point of No Return (when they leave Cerberus HQ) so that there's an established "true problem" in the narrative left to solve, and Shepard then has to go to put an end to that, whether it's gonna be good or bad. He simply has to do it. Wouldn't it be perfect if somehow at this point in ME3 we already knew we were deciding between Destroying or Controlling the Reapers? And that the Reapers are actually meant as a safeguard against extinction of some kind? Then Shepard has to go knowing that it's not as simple as just "defeating the Reapers". There's something more at stake that potentially means he could doom existence in the future.
Anonymous No.717941317
Required reading for why the ending is just that bad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MlatxLP-xs
Anonymous No.717941793 >>717942091
>>717925712
>Chaos.. isn'tasoludion..
>Chaos.. ish a ladder
Anonymous No.717941897
>>717925694
Represents Shepard's guilt when it came to leaving Earth
Anonymous No.717942071 >>717942212
>>717924402 (OP)
>pisses away any chance of mass effect becoming an established sci-fi franchise and billions in potential profits

why didn't they just make sure they had an actual plot planned for ME2 and 3?
Anonymous No.717942091
>>717941793
Lovely quote, and based moment. Has nothing to do with this though.
Anonymous No.717942121
>>717927675
>>717928470
>>717928994
I'm sorry to say anon but you have autism. (You) for effort though
Anonymous No.717942212
>>717942071
Because it's not worth it in a game franchise because too many plot-related things depend on asset production, budget and gameplay.
They basically have to finish a project, then look what the "environment" is gonna look like and how much of the dev team is intact for the next period of time, and then devise a story that takes some things into account.

The reason Cerberus suddenly has a "Clone Army" in ME3 sprung out of some gameplay-related questions they had, prompting them to say "If we make Cerberus a main enemy, in a war, can we make that work story-wise".

Of course then it's up to a writer to say "no", but Mac Walters said yes.
Anonymous No.717943512
>>717928994
both control and synthesis are so unbelievably retarded