INDIES BTFO

>>717941035 (OP)
Indie games are just earthbound clones and metroidvanias with LGBT pandering.

>>717941149
2010 was a better yer for indes than now

>>717941035 (OP)
alfred hitchcock is so FAT

>>717941149
No they're not, indies have soul

That's why pro wrestling is the greatest artform of all time

>>717941035 (OP)
I remember watching the entire thing at some point.
Pretty good takes.

>>717941680
link pls

>>717941542
so true, sis!

>>717942807
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKCrOLcDbjE

>>717941035 (OP)
>art is dead because it's too accessible and not gatekept enough

>>717943534
yes retard

>>717943591
hitler could've lived as a decent artist if it wasn't for you faggots.

>>717943534
true

it's funny how 90s games on a crt could look really pretty but indie devs are chasing that crappy look on an lcd hdtv or something

>>717943534
His thesis is that art is not meant to be realistic, which I agree with... we already have reality

>>717943827
anyone can make unrealistic art. the dude is saying that even unrealistic art is "an artificial attempt", implying art is impossible once realism becomes the bare minimum. he says "we can't artificially try to film badly", yes but you can genuinely film badly, or in a way that conveys intent and artistic expression. the guy is just plain wrong and is echoing a blackpill/pessimistic mindset.

>>717943528
The first recorded instance of somebody trying to describe SOVL, amazing

>>717944040
intentionally making it shitty doesnt look as good as the og workarounds which bred creativity

>>717944148
doesn't look as good? fine, so how about we don't intentionally film badly like a retard then? put yourself non-artificial constraints, like if you're making a movie then challenge yourself to exclusively utilize practical effects with no cgi whatsoever. then you can both convey artistic expression and artistic skill through the workarounds you mentionned. for vidya, instead of using unity to make a game that looks like it's on the n64, then build an engine with constraints similar to the n64. the limitations, albeit arbitrarily set, will still result in genuine creativity. the only argument i can imagine granting you is that little to no one is willing to do that, because why limit yourself when it's so much easier not to? but the point is, artistry is not dead. not in video games, not in movies, not in music. there's always a way for genuine creativity, through emotional and/or skill expression

why the hell do indie games cause /v/ to seethe uncontrollably, no matter the game?

>>717944626
This place has a huge population of console warriors and to them indies are like scabs are to unions

>>717941149
>earthbound clones
That hardly play like Earthbound to begin with.
>And metroidvanias
And hardly any of them are designed in a way with a natural flow that doesn't result in constant padding (or worse, necessitate fast-travel) or are not just speedrunbait that are designed with epic sequence breaking in mind when Sequence Breaking gets its name because players can BREAK the game in a way that definitely wasn't intended by the developers (you'd be circumcised if you think Nintendo made Super Metroid with the intent to do a reverse boss order)
>with LGBT pandering
Which is easily filtered because any and all pandering game do so at the very surface level by branding the game as such, games that make shit subtle wouldn't be that lgbt pandering (Deltarune seems to be doing a good job at making the yurislop look so badly written, it made people switch to a more hetero ship in mass)

I've seen more indiegames that are just stupid puzzle games than RPG games.

>>717944515
Let me put it in a way you can understand. An artificial attempt means that making your game look pixelated like the days of old is that, an artificial attempt. Games back then had to do the absolute most they could out of the architecture of a fucking Toaster to output games that look gorgeous, like being tasked with painting the mona lisa with crayons over a blank paper page of a school notebook and not a proper canvas with high-grade painting.
If your intent is to draw a stupid doodle no better than a caveman's handpainting on stone, then expect your attempts to be called artificial slop.

>>717945178
i wish they would try to emulate the cgi cutscenes look instead

>>717941035 (OP)
Based Hitchcock

>>717944626
they don't actually play any and just want to bait and shill for AAA slop

>>717945178
>the only real art is the one that's utilizing the most cutting-edge ultra-realistic techniques
>but anything realistic isn't art
sounds like a problem you've made yourself. there's plenty of video games, movies or music that look/feel like things of old and are still great art. keep rotting in your self-inflicted emptiness i guess.

>>717944148
Simply put a limit on the materials and methods you are allowed to use. This works for basically everything. People can still make games for old systems just the same as they can still shoot and edit a movie without ever touching a computer.

>>717945443
>>717944626
assblasted indiefags kek

>>717943764
Depends on the system you're trying to imitate. If its anything with a native RGB output, then the non-blended pixels are the correct look, and the composite blending is the anachronism.

>>717945464
>art is the one that's utilizing the most cutting-edge ultra-realistic techniques
I did not realize having a screen resolution higher than 480p was cutting edge technology.

>>717945597
you couldn't more clearly be setting up a strawman. do i need to list a ton of great indie games full of artistic and skill expression? let me guess, you'll just outright deny them because you're intellectually dishonest.

>>717944626
It's pretty simple. Most indies aren't creating games that are actually worth a damn. If an indie game comes out that SEEMS to be above average, then they're probably not actually a true indie, but are instead LARPing as one for the marketing and clout. The majority of indie success stories want you to believe that it was some dude who made his game all by himself in the off hours while working a shit day job, but the reality is that behind 99999/100000 indie game stories, there's more money, larger teams, prior established fanbases, and other factors that dilute the legitimacy of their claims to "indie". Usually by this point they're no better off structurally than your average AA/AAA dev outfit.
Plus, I do not WANT low-quality indie versions of things. Indies are making garbage because they lack the talent and resources to make high quality versions of things I want which are disappearing
So me supporting small, shitty creators doesn't advance their craft at all - it merely perpetuates an outpouring of continuous, lukewarm sludge.

>>717945863
truth nuke, we need AA back

>>717943679
but then the world would have 6 million extra jews

>>717941035 (OP)
>>717943528
truer words have never been spoken

>>717945863
minecraft was made by one schizo
stardew valley was made by one faggot

>>717945178
>An artificial attempt means that making your game look pixelated like the days of old is that, an artificial attempt.
>Games back then had to do the absolute most they could out of the architecture of a fucking Toaster to output games that look gorgeous
Then don't fake it. Do it for real. Develop your games for actual toaster hardware. All these old consoles have been cracked for decades and have freely available development tools.

Pic related is one of the most technically impressive Atari 7800 games ever made, and it came out in 2018.

>>717946232
funny how neo-nazis can't decide whether the holocaust did or did not happen because in either case it vindicates them

>>717946326
it did not happen, but if it did, it would have been a good thing

>Indie games
Also known as low effort hyperfocused remake of one game the dev liked as a kid.

>>717946426
Based. There are so many lazy fucks out here waiting for a sequel or revival of their favorite childhood series and indie devs will see to make their own ideal version of it with the tools they're given.

>>717945787
Not a strawman, you know why people often tout the hell out of old games as stuff that looks good? Because back then, the people making these games were shackled to a potato's hardware to output stuff like pic related while the people of today know nothing of such limits and i'm certain those same developers that worked at Sega would not want to go back to working on limited pixels when they're no longer bound by shitty hardware and instead can draw the characters how they intend to look like without bitcrunching them into squares, which is why someone like Capcom or SNK aren't doing their fighting games with the look of their best classics (3rd strike and KoF 2000).
I hate using Undertale as a constant example of bad pixelart but the key thing that makes UT's pixel art goofy is that it employs mixeling animations because the pixel art is not bound by a tiny resolution so characters can move character limbs like paper puppets without any problem as UT is not bound by old technology so it gets away with doing stuff that would never fly on real hardware from the era its supposed to mimic and this is where the Artificial Attempt comes in, all it does is just try to be a game like the author remembers it and considering how much the Earthbound franchise gets glazed as this top tier game that is godly and all of that, it seems every single Earthbound ''''''inspired'''''' game is hardly similar to earthbound, it truly highlights how artificial it is to create something touted as "INSPIRED BY MY FAVORITE GAME!!" truly is when shit's just based out of pure nostalgic memories subject to memory rot from the 20 or so years inbetween a nigga's childhood and their present date creating the game of their dreams, almost as bad as that "created by the people who watched Shrek" meme.

You can name any and all indie game that is good at emulating the aesthetics of old, but at the end of the day it is just that, emulation, an artificial replicant of the past.

>>717946426
These days, you're lucky if they actually played the game at all. Many of them simply watch the first couple of hours of it, or worse yet, read about it and like the vague idea in their mind about what the game MIGHT be like, then go "yes, I'm going to make THIS."

>>717945863
>f an indie game comes out that SEEMS to be above average,
>hollow knight
>noitia
>kenshi
>anode heart
>crosscode
>binding of isaac
>demon's roots
>eastward
>nine sols
>omori
>troubleshooter abandoned children
>rain world
>stardew valley
>terraria
>underspace
>implying all of these games arent amazing

To say that indie games cant be good or "art" is to admit you literally only eat shit and then complain that you only eat shit.

>>717946775
And because i made a wall of text i could not fit in one last keypoint to diss indie games: The sole fact that a flat 2d game like fucking Antonblast has PERFORMANCE ISSUES ON THE FUCKING NINTENDO SWITCH truly displays that people are not developing games how they used to, merely just using modern tools that simplify the harder parts of game developers to output their mediocre aesthetic output.
You look at a game like Doom running on anything with a screen then look at some modern 2d game and it truly blows one's mind on how does a game that renders threedimensional graphics has no issues existing on an actual toaster while the flat 2d platformer with the graphics of an atari game is not running because it asks for buttfuck_aids.dll that is only found on modern hardware.

>>717946326
Funny how generalizing against minorities is bad but against the wrong side it's fine

>>717947014
>1 random indie game anecdote is evidence for a large trend or sweeping statements
literal brown tier IQ moment

>>717946775
you're just projecting your pessimistic/nihilistic perspective of the world onto art. most people don't have a problem at all seeing undertale as art. technological constraints aren't all that define art. when painting was invented it didn't kill engraving as an art.

>>717945863
I can only think of Dave the Diver as being one of these masquerading indies. Saying a majority of them are like that is some bullshit, unless your definition of indie is one guy whose funding consists of what is in his wallet.

>>717947014
Doom does not actually run on anything, every time you hear about Doom running on something all of the code is not handled by the device. What actually happens is that Doom is being merely rendered by the device, which is very different. If you see actual ports of Doom for consoles of the era they all struggled running it and/or had to cut features. Please don't be a retard that thinks Doom was so well optimized it runs on a pregnancy test.

Also Anonblast running like shit has no excuse but let's not pretend that devs back then weren't exempt from poor optimizing, you're gonna find lots of shitty SNES and Genesis games that run like shit despite the dev's best efforts while other games in the same system are much better optimized.

>>717944848
That doesn't make any sense. Xbox practically paved the way for indies via XBLA.

>>717947514
>is evidence for a large trend or sweeping statements
Most indie games look worse than Cave Story yet won't run on similar hardware that Cave Story could no-diff. Which again, shows that shit is just done for artificial aesthetics because at the end of the day, it's shit done because that's the capacity of a low level amateur.

Looking at the other side of the coin, this hardly matters because videogames have never been art, are not art and will never be art. They're not bound to similar restrictions or benefits to artistic media, yet people still want to chase a high for validation, a validation that is hardly taller than a mexican mountain yet treated like it's Everest.

If you wanna make a game that looks like shit, sure go ahead. By the end of the day, the only thing that matters is money, if a game is making money then clearly making it look shitty helps it make money.

>>717947852
>Most indie games look worse t
and most AAA games are dog shit, does that mean AAA games are incapable of being good? Its like your brain literally does not fuctional. At all. Extremely basic math is completely impossible for you.
my 12 year old sister understands this better than you do because its BASIC fucking set theory logic.

>>717948143
>does that mean AAA games are incapable of being good?
Given that not a single AAA game has amounted to anything other than being a flop if the last 3 years are anything to go by, yes. Besides i was comparing an indie game to another indie game, nowhere did i talk about AAA stuff.

>>717941223
thats not hitchcock you stupid uncultured fuck, that's John Renore

>>717941149
And JRPGs are about spiky haired teenagers killing god with the power of friendship.

>>717948284
If not Hitchcock, why Hitchcock shaped?

>>717948280
>nowhere did i talk about AAA stuff.
the fact that you dont understand analogies means that you are legitimately retarded. like legitimately. there is no point in anyone discussing anything with you ever again.

>>717948348
>killing god
Even though the final boss is hardly god and more like someone injected with steriods made out of Chuthulu's cum.

>>717948143
>Extremely basic math is completely impossible for you.
>my 12 year old sister understands this better than you do because its BASIC fucking set theory logic.
the fuck are you on about

>>717948353
it was the style of the time, like how in the 80's it was the style for directors to wear ballcaps and look manchild slobs

>>717946296
>stardew valley was made by one faggot
Plus two dedicated play testers given to him by his publisher. The typical real indie nowadays never gets enough traction to get dedicated play testers to make an actually good game.

Games are not art. This phrase filters normalfags and subversive faggots like Cuckmann. Roger Ebert was unironically our greatest ally.

>Indie
Why do we need this name when we already have a suitable one?

Shovelware

>>717948459
I understand analogies, what i don't understand is your strawman of "OH BUT AAA GAMES" when the point is that all indie games do is just be artificial emulation of old art with it being inspired by vague childhood memories and not taking actual crucial notes of how those old games were made and how they actually played, which is how most if not all games parroted as Earthbound clones don't have the audiovisuals or gameplay or even music style of Earthbound.

>>717948074
Gameplay is an art on the same level as cinematography, painting, or prose.

Also Notch had /v/ play test for him

Modern indie games all suck because the market is so over saturated wannabe indies can’t even get playtesters, and without play testers they can’t find the fun and end up shipping garbage.

>>717948569
>Cuckmann
all xhe is capable of is oscarbait and the retarded award shows reward that style. total geoff death.

>>717948537
the typical indie has millions of playtesters testing their game for over 30 years since they just ripoff old games

>>717948497
>retard doesnt understand set theory logic
All indie games belong to the indie game set. Just because SOME indie games are bad does not mean they ALL are. Even if 99% of them were bad it still doesnt mean 100%. The idea that someone has written off all indie games because a lot of them are shit means they fundamentally do not understand math. very basic math.
>>717948638
" when the point is that all indie games do is just be artificial emulation of old art
The fact that you think this is inherantly the point to 100% of all indie games and not just some of them proves my point, that you do not understand very basic math. You are taking a look at a pattern that you have noticed, lets say it happens a generous 80% of the time, (its not nearly that high), and you are now saying 80% is actually 100%. This is how retarded you are. And no, you dont understand analogies. Everyone ITT is dumber for even having looked at your posts

>>717948491
That's my point. It's a stereotype that was never really true about any game. Same as "earthbound clones about depression".

>>717948719
They try and fail to rip-off old games because they don’t have testers telling them that they’ve failed to capture what made the original so good.

>>717941035 (OP)
This thread every single day, multiple times per day
>all indie games are one thing AND IT'S SHIT

>>717948645
Gameplay is not a form of art and will never be one, it'd be like saying a Toy can be an art when the most prestigue a toy has gotten was in its engineering department like that Megatron toy that looks screen accurate to the cartoon while also being able bodied to turn into a decently proportional gun. Most ironic is that toy hobbyists care more about a toy's aesthetics and craftmanship than its actual playability while people praising gameplay as art are the type to go "CLANG CLANG CLANG BOOOSH" by smacking two toys on each other like a monkey.

>yeah so anyway that's why we absolutely MUST make everything hideous and ugly and its absolutely okay for modern artists to completely abandon technique and skill
why are jews like this?

>>717948798
Yes. Indie games are by definition bad games. If a game is successful then it’s not indie.

>>717948834
>Gameplay is not a form of art
Define art. dont google it. dont look it up. Define art in your own words.

>>717948845
The real solution isn't make shit look like shit, it's to do nothing at all.
If an industry has reached stagnation then just throw it in the trash and never look back at it. Why make videogames if shit's going to be trash anyways?

>>717948863

>>717948834
>engineering can't be art
yup, confirmed humanities-major retard

>>717948863
can you tell the class what indie is short for and where the term comes from anon?

>>717948834
>it'd be like saying a Toy can be an art
The design of the toy is in fact filled with art. Making it look good, making it feel good, making it look right, making it all work after that, and then making it hold up under use are all different endeavors that I would call "art" individually.

>>717948927
>okay yeah too many people made video games I don't like so I'm going to abandon my interest now entirely
Whatever kind of autism you have sounds unbearable. Have you looked into getting it treated?

>>717948870
An artistic form of expression from a person or made as a collaborative effort, and said expression is shown through skill and labor.

Music is an art because it expresses the composer's various thoughts, be their emotions or their ideals they believe in or express their dream world
Sculpture is an art form because the sculptor can use their craftmanship to create something they desire, like someone wants to chisel a beautifuil naked woman? Their obvious fetish is majestically masked on the fact that some coomer could chisel a stone into a beautiful and proportionally accurate pair of breasts. Similar deal for people who paint or build or even those with an engineering crastmanship to create a clock with tiny jewels.
Even dancing is a form of art that can show the perfect harmony that two or more human beings can achieve when they synchronize movements perfectly

Now define the artistic expression through gameplay with your own words. Becuase to my own words, any and all games are not art because it is essentially a game of simon says, where is the skill expression behind getting told to put the squared object in the squared hole (or in an actual gameplay related example, to shoot the green door with the green missile weapon)

>>717949213
that horse can't be more evil and intimidating than how the lesbians are towards each other

>>717946820
>Years of games
Now compare that number of decent indies to the amount of slop that releases in a month.

>>717949213
>actual retard cant imagine how meaning can be conveyed by gameplay choices

>>717949213
>music is an art because it expresses thoughts and feelings
>sculpture is an art because it expresses desires (thoughts and feelings)
>dancing is an art because it expresses thoughts and feelings
Gameplay is an art because it expresses thoughts and feelings. It's that simple.
Slow movement creates a different mood than fast movement. First person shooting creates a different mood than third person brawling. Different gameplay produces different feelings. If this isn't expression on the part of the people behind it, then nothing is.

>>717949367
Ok so 80% is garbage. 80% is not 100% and the good games are not bad because thsy belong to the same set that the 80% does. You litetally do not understand math.

>>717949532
>Simon says pick only one of coin A, coin B or Coin C = artistic meaning
This is why games are not an art form, might as well just stick to a choose your own adventure textbook.

>>717949367
This doesn't alter how good any of the good games are, so it doesn't matter here.
"All" means "all", not "most", and definitely not "enough for me to disregard".

>>717941035 (OP)
>we can't artificially try to film badly
>he think i'm artificially making things badly
I'm making games authentically badly because I have no clue what I'm doing.

>>717944626
Indie games are no longer made by one schizophrenic freak in his bedroom anymore like Minecraft Terraria Factorio Undertale et cetera
now you have decently large teams that all make the same fucking game which is either
>Binding of Isaac/Hades rip off
>Undertale rip off
>Factorio rip off
>Minecraft rip off though these have died out by now
>shitty horror slop trying to be the next five nights at freddys
There's not one iota of originality in the indie sphere just endless iteration on the few indie games which took the world by storm

>>717949903
you do not seem very well traveled.

>>717949989
I travelled very well in your mother's fallopian tubes and will do so again given the opportunity

>>717949726
The reason board games aren't art isn't because they have objectives, it's because what you're mostly supposed to emotionally engage with is the other players. With games, you're always subject to the feelings its fundamental systems produce even if it's a multiplayer game and most of the gameplay is technically interaction.

>>717946820
/v/ routinely shits their collective pants over the existence of all of these game.

>>717943534
yes

>>717949014
It originally stood for independent but the meaning of the word has changed over time. That’s how language works. Words are repurposed to fit new realities.

>>717949903
There's only so many ways a character can move through space and interact with it. We've exhausted a lot of them. The originality is in the story, characters, music, and overall presentation.

>>717949903
once again
>retard notices trend
>trend applies to a subset that belongs to a larger set
>applies this trend to the entire set
>is convinced it will happen every single time

What you can and should say is "i have noticed that A LOT of indie games are often just derivative copies of other more successful ones". Because that is a true statement, and it takes into account the trend you have noticed. but that would require you to have more than 2 brain cells to rub together and to not be brown. Because you are brown, nuance is lost on you, and you dont understand extremely simple logic. A trend does not indicate that it is happening 100% of the time for everything involved. The fact that you cannot understand this means you are LEGITIMATELY RETARDED.

A toy can be used as the basis to explain why gaming can't be art but toys themselves can be.
A toy to the eyes of someone is praised by its great engineering to create something that has many points of articulation while maintaining a level of proportional accuracy to what the toy is supposed to be like an action figure and to the artistic eye, the ability to create something that can stand and pose perfectly without any compromise or without damaging the toy itself or without flimsy shit like poor joints that do not hold a pose for shit (loose joints) is why something can be praised in spite of being a Toy

A videogame is similar to a toy because of the toy's other usage: A fucking Child's plaything, gameplay is taking a nice toy and just play pretend by thinking "Oh look its superman, it flies!" all while throwing the fucking thing like it's a football. That's what all videogames amount to, just grabbing a piece of plastic and mush it on the ground.

All indies are shit

>>717949809
based troon

>>717950391
I'm just not going to read all of that buddy
You are a retarded faggot I just know

>>717950503
>brown esl cant read english
>thinks we didnt already know this

>>717950531
No you're just being a pedantic faggot and you wasted about 5 minutes of your time illustrating that fact so im not going to listen to you because of that

>>717950391
>A trend does not indicate that it is happening 100% of the time for everything involved.
If it isn't 100% happening, do show us names of that low percentage.

>>717950632
Do you honestly think anyone ITT or even on 4chan has ever mistaken you for anything other than a brown ESL incapable of basic logic or english reading comprehension?

>>717950713
i literally already did, scroll up, but you wont because that would destroy your little narrative

>>717941223
why am I so fat?

>>717950473
The reason the engineering and the visual appeal of the toy both matter is because the toy is supposed to create an impression both visually and in play. The design of the toy with respect to visuals, proportions, and engineering is an art, just as the design of the toy with respect to movement and play features.
>the toy's other usage
It's all the same usage. The reason a toy's appearance matters is because it contributes to how it's played with. Even with toys for adults.

>>717950728
Be more concise nobody wants to read your novel

>>717950889
>

>>717948936
Jesus Christ that is horrifying.

>>717941035 (OP)
I don’t know, if this were true the average gamer wouldn’t prefer pixel art over hi res art. The latter just gets called glorified flash games

>>717950728
>other dude doesnt like indies cause most are shit
>your stupid ass: blah blah blah muh theory of logic

>>717951331
>other dude
>implying its not you over here coping seething and dilating

>>717949903
None of those were made by one person.

>>717950816
>It's all the same usage.
Not really, there's a reason the term Hamhands existed in /toy/ whenever a retard broke his toy for not being careful with it. Videogames are the hamhands of the artistic medium (if there's any even within itself) and as such, can't be called art.

>>717951605
>hamhands is when you consider how a toy makes someone feel to play with and not just to look at
If this is /toy/'s actual attitude then I'm glad I've never been. I suspect you're bullshitting me though.
>no no you're allowed to actually use the toy as a toy, you just have to be caaarefuuul
And if a toy can be art in play, so can a video game.

>>717951293
good "high res art" like in Ori or Gris doesn't get called that.

I remember Zizek making a similar point about people wanting to return to le traditional architecture

>>717949673
>>717949730
esl?

>>717941035 (OP)
have you seen the complete interview?
I don't think you have.

>>717941149
Still better than cod clones with celeb cameos.

>>717953250
>just hush and consume the slop bro!!!

>>717941035 (OP)
hes objectively wrong.

>>717949903
Play Arctic Eggs

>>717948863
>Indie games are by definition bad games
what do you call a bad AAA game then? an indie AAA?

>>717953475
he didn't say that either.
take 15 minutes out of your busy shitposting schedule and listen to the man directly instead of through increasingly more brainrotted games of telephone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7Mtd6GE_PI

>>717946820
how low do your standards have to be that you consider omori...mediocre, let alone higher than trash?

>>717941035 (OP)
those thread are funny because i ironicaly have no idea of what /v/ play or what sort of indie game you find while i have 180 game backlog

Realism killed video games

>>717953867
my schedule can fit it, but im afraid my paged attention span pool can't

>>717954186

>>717948569
The worst mistake someone can make about art is to perpetuate the idea that being art is inherently a mark of quality instead of a basic descriptor of a creative production.

>>717949213
Buckshot Roulette is artistic expression about the dangers and pull of addictions

You are playing a game that will ultimately depend on rng, that you think you can manipulate but never perfectly, against possibly the devil itself. Every item you use to help is an addictive substance - crutches that make you panic the moment rng doesnt give you any.
The reward for all this addiction is completely irrelevant, you are doing it for recreations sake both in and out of character.

>>717954191
then wallow in ignorance and spite, goblin that you are.

>>717948760
>Just because SOME indie games are bad does not mean they ALL are. Even if 99% of them were bad it still doesnt mean 100%
It's refreshing to see someone having a nuanced opinion here.
>I don't like [indie game] therefore all indies are bad
>I don't like [AAA game] therefore all AAA games are bad
>I don't like [game that uses Unreal Engine] therefore all games that use said engineit are bad
>I don't like [realistic artstyle in some games] therefore all games with realistic artstyles are bad
Extremism has ruined all discussion in this place.

>>717954521
well why don't you offer some solutions then, hmmm?

>>717941035 (OP)
AI can already making games development accessible and we are going to be mogging indie devs brutally. Everything will going too be AI and it is pure cinema.

>>717954850
because you already know what the solution is: stop being retarded. but you won't do that.

>>717954968
>stop being retarded
okay, how hmm? won't or can't?

>>717941035 (OP)
maybe im retarded but isn't he just saying that it's not enough for film to imitate/record reality, it has to actually add something to it

>>717955038
won't.

>>717955117
wrong, i tried to, i really did.

>>717944626
because, more than any other hobby board, /v/ fags don't actually like video games
it's like going on /mu/ and shitting on anything with less than 2,000,000 spotify listens, or on /tv/ and shitting on anything made past the year 2005, or on /g/ and shilling for windows 11
it's pretty fucking stupid

>>717955175
evidently not.

>>717955242
ok then, hit me with your fool-proof solution

If you think this quote would condemn indies, or games that go for stylised aesthetics for whatever reason, then you simply misunderstand what Renoir is saying in the context of films.

>>717955358
step one: stop being a useless little bitch. demanding other people to fix your problems isn't cute.

>>717955493
all of your solutions are 2 vague

>>717954958
>Average "ideas" tard who doesn't even understand the medium
I bet you also believe you could direct better films than Scorsese kek

>>717948763
thanks for the excuse to post this

>>717950341
No, I disagree. The importance is in how you utilise the ludic of the piece as a way of conveying themes, and narratives.
This is like saying that because we already have all shots down in film making then we should just focus on the script, characters, music, etc. While that is still important, the strength and identity of cinema as an art is still in the composition. It's not what you are telling but how you are doing so.
Thus applying the same logic to videogames, we need to explore the same mechanics we already have to explore and tell stories. Originality is overrated, every story that was worth telling has already been told thousands of years ago.
I really love Majora's Mask in that sense, the timeloop is the perfect expression of the work's themes, and it simply can not be done in any other medium. It is tied to the identity of the game.

>>717943534
So true.

>>717946326
It's almost like you're talking to a guy making a snarky comment and not any serious take on the holohoax, crazy

>>717946775
Undertale is actually reasonably possible. It natively renders in 320x240 in the overworld and 640x480 in battle (textboxes and the enemies are made 2x bigger to match the overworld, while also benefitting from the size to allow for rotations/scaling to look nice)
Older games would similarly boot into an interlace mode to cram more detail in scenes like text dense menus.
The actual rotation/scaling would have to be done in software, use predrawn sprites, or use special cartridge chips, but it's not insanely off for the time to have them.

>>717953867

717944626
The thing about indie is that by wording things that way you're invoking the same faggots even if you don't mean it (but you do mean it) and that usually comes with a guiltytrip narrative of "the underdog, struggling indies fighting against the AAA" that's basically a grift and since 99% of them aren't that good it's even worse of a grift.
If I said instead "check out this cool browser/io game" there's no baggage involved in the convo, even though browser games are technically indie. The distinction is important- 100% chance you are talking about the faggot games.
Second, why does someone hate splatoon and Donkey Bananza among others that much and why must I be part of that? I can't buy it. There is a lot of slop by companies but I also don't buy that all company games are slop, much less worse than "indies" when those aren't that great either. There's also lots of questions raised about AA, are you supposed to hate AA too, do I have to check if a game is AA/AAA, etc. All of this distracts me from actually comparing the gameplay of the games, because instead you're on a grifting campaign.

>>717944626
The Jewish /v/igger is first and foremost a contrarian, then secondary a retard, and thirdly a cock sucking faggot. Never take /v/'s opinions on anything ever. You would be better of playing Russian roulette with a Glock

>>717957795
>All of this distracts me from actually comparing the gameplay of the games
Hang on, what? Accounting for where the games come from distracts you from understanding the games? How? Are you applying a single universal set of expectations to all games? You think this lets you compare them?
Also the fact that you care at all about what the faggoty type of "games are le art" retard thinks is concerning.

>>717952360
>>hamhands is when you consider how a toy makes someone feel to play with and not just to look at
No, Hamhands is when the user is a reckless retard who plays like a retard with a toy that is not made to be played with a retard that goes CLANG CLANG CLANG PEW PEW POOOFF, and all videogamesare by nature just the equivalent of kids playing with car toys by smashing them to each other like a cool car crash.

>>717957657
The tower climbing mode7 effect in chapter 4 is really neat

>>717958218
>The Jewish /v/igger is first and foremost a contrarian, then secondary a retard, and thirdly a cock sucking faggot. Never take /v/'s opinions on anything ever. You would be better of playing Russian roulette with a Glock

>>717958393
>all videogamesare by nature just the equivalent of kids playing with car toys by smashing them to each other like a cool car crash
Okay then it's this part I don't get. Can you elaborate further? Why is the way a game feels to control less of an "artistic" feeling than the atmosphere a painting evokes? Because if something is expressed through mechanics it's not a "real" feeling?

>>717958504
The thing about videogames, specifically gameplay, being incompatible with being an artform is that by the end of the day, videogames are all a game of Simon says, you are just doing what the game tells you to do.
Any and all qualities found in videogames are just derivatives from other medium like if a game has a compelling story then that's just a case of good literature wasted on videotoys, or good music that can be compared to the greats of the music industry is just there bundled on videotoys, or even something like Shinkiro's illustrations back in the 90's that served as mere advertisements for silly quarter munching arcade games.
What does that leave videogames when you take off all the audiovisual spectacle? Pressing buttons in accordance to what the game instructs you leading to a stupid loop of dopamine where all you do is click shit to make number go up, there is a reason why there's a thing called The Tetris Effect where your mind just zones out as all you're doing is just stack rows of blocks to make number go up in a way the gameplay hypnotizes you, no different from smoking a blunt and naming 100 star clusters above yourself in the night sky. Where's the art in a short-term dopamine hit?

>>717944148
>intentionally making it shitty doesnt look as good as the og workarounds which bred creativity

>>717958793
>videogames are all a game of Simon says, you are just doing what the game tells you to do
Oh, so you believe the way a game feels comes entirely from elements other than the gameplay, and the gameplay is just a mechanical thing wedged in there essentially out of spite for "real art" or just for profit.
Unfortunately, you're wrong. Different methods of control, different vectors of interactivity, and different sequences of events inherently evoke different feelings during play, no matter how they're dressed up with other types of art. Adjusting the fundamental properties of movement in a game can radically alter the feelings it produces when you play, without altering the aesthetics or narrative at all. That is a clear sign of gameplay being an independent "layer" of art from the visuals and sound, rather than some sort of anti-art aberration jammed into what might otherwise be an artistic endeavor.

>>717941035 (OP)
At least post the second part of his answer.

>>717955117
Assuming all are as genetically fit as yourself is a classic mistake white people make. You are most likely speaking to a brain-rotted tiktok addicted brownoid with no self control.

>>717959202
this part gets posted all the time tho

>>717959202
Thats the first part tard

>>717959231
>brain-rotted with no self control.
yes
>tiktok addicted brownoid
no

>>717947803
>paved the way
you mean the modern stereotype of an american indie game? the XBLA format that quite literally REQUIRED the game to have an actual publisher before approaching xbox?
you are not wrong, but it is naive to think freeware doesn't count, or that publisher-developer model in the 90s is any different from what is currently described as "indie"

>>717959126
>or just for profit.
Given that videogames are made with the intent to make profit first and foremost, gameplay just exists as a way to sell the other quarters of the medium. See ZUN with Touhou, that gook started his shit because he wanted to sell his music and found out that bundling said music with videogames drawn in the most crude way possible while stapling the most braindead simple and easy gameplay form to develop games (shoot em ups).

I do not care how much or how long i'll get called a pessimistic fuck, videogames can never be art on behalf that shit is profit first integrity second and given how many people just try to be the next Toby Fox, all that tells me is that videogames are just the bottom of the barrel to get an easy mild success out of playing blips and bloops on a keyboard while the gameplay is clicking buttons to make the game tell you "U r a winrar" regardless if it's a rhytim game, a roleplaying game, an adventure game, a point and click game, a strategy game, a platforming game, a puzzle game, a shooting game (first, second third or whatever fifth person game) or anything game, shit can never be art because it's just a toy made to draw in dopamine out of your brain and its authors are just cogs in a machine to produce profit.

>>717953867
What a terrible time we live in.

>>717959582
Like a soon to be broken man once said, you are either perfect or you're not me.

>>717945863
>there's more money, larger teams, prior established fanbases, and other factors that dilute the legitimacy of their claims to "indie"
If this world wasn't so fake and gay, then "indie" wouldn't be used as a marketing term, and you wouldn't feel the need to bitch about "other factors". "Independent videogame published by Devolver" is an oxymoron, but there is absolutely nothing contradictory about having money and people and fans. If anything, it just shows that you have bought into the marketing term that presents indie as a scrappy little one-man band.

>>717954565
Its not just this place, internet communication via impersonal text is antithetical to nuance. If i want to have nuanced conversations with ppl it generally has to be one on one in person or over voice.

>>717959580
>See ZUN with Touhou, that gook started his shit because he wanted to sell his music
What the actual fuck are you talking about? ZUN made games because he wanted to make games. He made a shmup series because he liked shmups. He focused on the music because he was good at it.
>videogames can never be art on behalf that shit is profit first integrity second
That's an utterly incoherent point. Whether an entire medium is capable of being art is solely based on the ability of the medium itself to communicate emotion, and not the intent of the creators in doing so. The medium can evoke emotion just fine, so it is art, whether or not the creator intends solely to make profit.
Also, with the amount of mental illness in game dev, I absolutely don't buy that it's all people out to make money and nothing else.

>global tapestry industry still making millions a year

>>717960013
If it isn't making money then it is pushing an agenda seeing how people want to mask a hard platformer under the guise of saying "i am trans", might as well call that game as I Wanna Be the Girl. The intent of any videogame creator is just to be successful, to be profitable, to be famous and to be anything that has nothing to do with integrity, especially when games that tout themselves as made with special integrity and that it is all true independency end up being phony shit like E33 which is this OH SO INDIEGAME that was made by a nepobaby using his rich daddy's money.

I will just concede and end the argument here, i am done thinking about discussing gamer's integrity when i've yet to see any in my years of seeing people chase dreams and flounder, the worst thing to come out of people telling me "OH BUT GAMES CAN EVOKE FEELINGS AND BE MADE WITH INTEGRITY" is giving me hope that i could make a game when the worst part about making games is that as a creator, the maker already knows what the game can do, what the game's story can tell, what the music sounds like and what the story and twists and ending look like, so what is the integrity behind making a game for myself if by the time i get to play it, it's like i already know the game inside out compared to when i fired up an NES game back in the day and i would be surprised what the next level could be like?
Let me guess, it's all about sharing and caring, yeah sure, sharing something with an audience consisting of ungrateful fucks, what a sick joke.

>>717960428
>nobody has integrity but me, woe is me, I cannot enjoy anything because everyone except for me has impure motives in what they do
You remind me of that guy who used to go ballistic about crossovers and science fantasy. Just like him, your problem is your massive fucking ego.

>>717960565
>>nobody has integrity but me
I am not excluding me, i don't have any integrity and that's why the only engagement i have with gaming is just to roam the depths of /idgames and play doom wads and just stick to something i am already comfortable rather than trying to be the next John Romero that reinvents the wheel, zero integrity behind my former dream of making a cool first person shooter so why try to be double faced and act like i had any integrity to begin with?

>>717960660
If nobody has integrity, then whether something was made with integrity should be irrelevant. Any system of thought that places the past as some unreachable ideal because it was the past and people hadn't "ruined everything" yet, or something, is just pessimism and defeatism dressed up to be more palatable. I'm not telling you to be the change you want to see, I'm telling you that thinking there's a fundamental moral that all modern humans intrinsically lack is egocentric as fuck. Why would you be the first person to really get how hopeless the modern world is, if it's something everyone lacks?

>>717960428
>"art for art's sake" retard faces material reality
forget vidyagaems, you seem like a plain madman utterly divorced from hows and whys of creators in the real world
imagine bitching and moaning about integrity when even the old masters of premodern era were exclusively commissioned
go read gorillion-word-long fanfiction if you want some "art with integrity" lmao

>>717960428
>>717959580
You are talking about things external to videogames. This is like saying films can't be art because every indie film maker wants to be the next Tarantino and become famous and profit off their films. And all the major studios all make films with the main intent of making profits. They even put dumb action scenes to draw out the dopamine!
>>717960660
You seem to be projecting your own frustrations into the medium.

Is the thread autosaged?

>>717944040
He meant that once the technique is known the charm is lost forever, there's no point in trying to make a retro game when you are using modern tools and living in a modern era, the limitations gave been lost to time. Kinda like trying to revive the old Internet

>>717961645
Too fancypants, need more gacha and twitter drama.

>>717961689
>there's no point in trying to make a retro game when you are using modern tools and living in a modern era, the limitations gave been lost to time
I find games that try to capture the ways developers typically worked around those limitations are quite capable of being enjoyable. Lots of shit, but that's true in every genre of every medium ever to reach the general public's notice.

>>717961689
In the context of indie games, making a "realistic" looking game is prohibitive, though. And to be honest I find realistic looking games to be unappealing, because oftentimes they are trying to compensate the lack of gameplay through fancy visuals