Thread 718007169

If your game is more real time than strategy, it's not a strategy game.

>>718007169 (OP)
>If your game is more real time than strategy
wtf does this even mean

>>718007402
Winning an RTS often comes down to who's quicker with a keyboard than who's actually better at strategy

It's incredible how useless ghosts are in TvZ

>>718007856
I hate how ghost are pretty much useless against anything, concussive damage was a mistake

>>718008294
Lock is the single most powerful terran ability in tvp

>>718007856
Irradiate is a massive pain to deal with as zerg, spend your gas on vessels

>>718007169 (OP)
>If your game does not induce rage, it's not a strategy game.

>>718007856
ghosts and battlecruisers both are severely gimped. Which is ironic as they are, per lore, supposed to be the two top tier units of terran

>>718007804
>>718007169 (OP)
most famous starcraft pros are known for their strategies. many of those strategies also required perfect execution, but that doesnt not make them strategies.

if you want strategy detached from mechanics, dont play a RTS, let alone a competetive one.

>>718007804
nah. in things like brood war it comes down to getting enough minerals and gas before the other guys run out to spam enough right unit compositions to rock-paper-scissor the other guys stream of bullshit

looking back watching things like bronze league heroes is much more entertaining as they actually do weird tactics and rudimentary strategy, sometimes winning even if at a blatant, game crippling disadvantage. as opposed to "pro games" that are formulaic as fuck with the set in stone build orders. And almost always boil down to either early game cheese or grueling grind with occasional spell casters spamming storms/dark swarms/plague/irradiate etc

>>718010771
THIS FUCKING DUMB APE

>>718011119
Competitive RTS don't have to be action games with shitty interfaces.

I've played SC + BW for the first time in the last week, finished both campaigns, I was rather disappointed but at the same time the game is really cool. Unfortunately it feels like it's the kind of game I can only really get into with a friend..
The soundtrack is god tier though

>>718011286
>moving goalpost
well starcraft isnt an action game with a shitty interface, its an RTS.

>>718007804
this is not true. This is usually what people who have low apm AND are bad at the game say to cope about why they aren't good

>>718007169 (OP)
If you need the game to stop so you can think your strategy, you are slow-witted

ASL soon bros

>>718011463
It is an action game with a shitty interface.

Seek mental help.

>>718007804
Define strategy. Provide examples.

>>718007169 (OP)
KERRIGAN FUCKS ZERGS

>>718007169 (OP)
>choose Protoss
>still can't beat Flash
Unbalanced game

A game in which you can lose without making a single quantifiable error is just a bad fucking game. Going expand first against Zerg as Protoss isn't an inherently wrong decision, but if the Zerg went 6-9pool you've lost on the spot through effective RNG.

>>718014370
do your probe micro reps, that's easily defendable

>>718007804
Stop being geriatric. Some SC champion have sub-60 APM. (You) literally have already have higher APM in whatever non-RTS vidya you play.
APM was never your problem: you just suck at the game and decided to blame it on random shit to feel better about yourself - like that one kid who blame all his FPS death on "lag".

>>718014935
>Some SC champion have sub-60 APM.
No they don't.

>>718007402
he's upset because he's too slow to keep up and it's shattering his illusion of being smart

>>718007804
If that were true TLO would win everything rather than being a nobody

>>718007169 (OP)
>got defeated by the APM meme
Just click shit, bro.

>>718014935
Non-RTS don't have retarded control schemes where you need the full keyboard and the mouse at the same time. Non-RTS aren't pretending to be strategy games.

What balance change could possibly push the gay eternal ling muta bumfight in ZvZ into at least mid game tech without also fucking up ZvT and ZvP?

>>718016532
>where you need the full keyboard and the mouse at the same time
Old MMOs say hello.

>Non-RTS aren't pretending to be strategy games.
It's okay to be dumb, Anon. Just because you suck at the big brain games doesn't mean you can't play Fifa or CoD and have fun.

>>718016592
Lings now yell racial slurs, ensuring professionals only use them when no other options are available.

>>718016813
Old MMOs don't pretend to be strategy games and also had horrible controls. What's your point?

>>718016592
Spore colonies apply acid spore to bio targets.

>>718016532
>where you need the full keyboard
I played C&C, RA and WCII on console without any problem.
And played most PC RTS with just the fucking mouse.
Maybe stop blaming irrelevant stuff for your shortcomings.

>>718007169 (OP)
where do i even play SC1 single player without a battle net account? Is there any version i can hunt that doesn't require it?

>>718016592
>balance change
That's retarded approach for gay niggers. In recent years ZvZ meta has been developing again, with multiple matches going on for 20+ minutes. As players get more confident in mid game transitioning we will see more defiler playstyles.

>>718007856
The nuke rush is actually a viable strat on certain maps against crazy zerg. It's not much but it's something. Buffing ghosts is one of the things that sc2 got right I admit.

>>718016940
My point is that the problem is (you)r ego being shattered by the fact that the "smart" genre is filtering you, and that blaming the controls is an hilarious cope.

It's vidya, you press buttons.
More than one. More than once.
It's like that in every single genre.
You just hate it with RTS because it force you to face the fact that you aren't as clever as you fancy yourself.

>>718007169 (OP)
skill issue

>>718017249
Does bnet cost money now?

this is our official response

>>718016592
Make mutalisk slower with slower acceleration, then add in an upgrade at hive tier that makes them fast again.

>>718007856
I always get IMMENSELY hype when I see the covert opts go down. I forget which games but I've seen nukes used (or attempted to be used) for busting through deep lines of sunks.

>>718017779
No but i don't want to install it since i just want to play the original version's single player again

Why doesn't anyone ever research exorcism? It's amazing against DKs.

>>718012163
i wish artosis and tasteless still casted live. at least it was tolerable with nyoken/scan, but the eonzerg and whoever the other guy is both sound like shit so i never join koreatime threads.

>>718014206
strategy means teching to max on one base and making an arbitrary army composition which wins because I'm smarter than my opponent and obviously in strategy games the smarter player should win.

>NOOO you're strategy decisions need to be slow
>they can't be decided in the matter of seconds
>i want to hide behind walls, nr25 pls

>>718007804
what if both players are equally fast on their keyboards

>>718018274
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I216esl5toI
@46min

>>718018461
last season was casted by some new guys and they at least were EFLs

>>718018631
cool. i'll tune in for the first group then and see how it goes.

>>718007169 (OP)
so thinking on your feet isnt strategy?

should there be a limit to apm so baddies can compete?
is that how games get more dumbed down?
to appeal to the worst players?

>>718018868
>is that how games get more dumbed down?
>to appeal to the worst players?
Yes.

>>718018868
Nah.
They would just jump on the next cope - probably build orders, despite them not understanding what a build order actually is.

what were they thinking

>>718010771
I always wondered; I know he has a wife and maybe a kid, does he get like this while they're home? I can't imagine raging like this, almost on the verge of tears, while your immediate family is nearby and can hear. Even locking yourself in a room for several hours every day while your wife is simply existing, alone, in another room is weird and sad.

>>718018868
>should there be a limit to apm so baddies can compete?
No, there is already an option to play at a lower game speed. Before starcraft became a big esport it was common to find games at lower game speeds. Great way to introduce new people to the game, or if you just want to mess around with friends. Nowadays people's ego prevents them from lowering the game speed, as it is an admission that they are bad.

i hope soulkey actually has to play a ZvZ this year. he just gets to skate by every time lol.

>>718019010
>select build order at the beginning of the game
>ai executes it for you
>you just move unites around

>>718019115
zvz sucks, it's good that they are getting it out of the way in the first round when it's just a bo1.

>>718019197
No it wasn't. Nobody played UMS on anything but Fastest, at least. I doubt people ever did the same for 1v1 or BGH or literal Fastest maps.

>>718019219
Moving units requires player actions so that's bad. Maybe allow the player to also select battlefield strategy and tactics so you can just lean back and jerk off while you watch the game play itself.

>>718019321
>UMS
>Fastest
>BGH
Irrelevant meme modes for b.net kiddies. We are talking about LAN parties.

>>718017667
That's a lot of projection.

>>718019461
>we played Fast because we were scrubs, so a lot of other people did too!
Doubt it.

>>718016592
Make Zerg units move faster on creep. This will give the defender an advantage ;)

>>718019175
>I know he has a wife and maybe a kid
he has like 4 daughters it's never been more over for a man

>>718018546
That's the one. I think I was in the shower listening and as soon as I heard what was going on I bolted the fuck out with shampoo in my hair. I feel like the first nuke might have gone off if he parked the vessels over the ghost to prevent direct target fire from the mutas.

>>718018859
Correct.

WC3 is so much better of an RTS than Starcraft that I cannot believe it.

>>718017051
Someone tell me why this wouldn't work.

>>718019175
he streams with his wife sometimes and she acts like an average guy in the chat

>>718019613
t.shitter and proud

>>718019536
What the fuck is that trypophobia triggering shit on his foot?!

>>718007169 (OP)
I dabbled in SC2 for a while but never got super into 1. Now tbat the dust is settled which is truely the better game?

>>718019876
lick it

>>718019010
What do you think a build order is?

>>718019876
Sunken colonies.

>>718019876
If you play enough zerg you are bound to get infected.

>>718019909
Neither, they're both shit.

>>718019737
I think this makes every game become ling vs. ling which is probably worse. Either that or it doesn't have enough of a effect because one of the biggest problems with this defensive play is that you get economically behind just from spending the drones on building and then they stall, then push you with lings to kill the spores. It doesn't really fix the fundamental problem of how behind you get when trying to adopt a defensive position to get into later portions of the game.

>>718007169 (OP)
Being real-time doesn't make it less strategy in any way.

>>718020056
No, but favoring the real time aspect does.

>>718007169 (OP)
I was playing starcraft online all the way back as far as 1999 and into the early 2000s.
We often laid ground rules before a game started in the game room chat, the rules were usually simply to not attack for a certain amount of minutes. Rushing was just stressful and boring and often made people leave the game the instant they got rushed. I mean come on, people would even send their workers to go rush, it was ridiculous. The most memorable battles were when it drags on and culminates to fully upgraded units.

I haven't played starcraft online since then so I have no idea what's going on in that space anymore.

>>718020056
It being real time gives you less time to think about strategy because you're forced to constantly upkeep your army through production.

>>718020178
You have to be good enough at strategy to process it in real time, just like in real life.

>>718019909
SC2 was put on life support by a single saudi prince who really liked it but it's over now. Meanwhile SC1 is still alive and kicking.

>>718020242
That has nothing to do with strategy.

>>718020145
People still do no rush and fast money map shit for big armies clashing against each other.

>>718020242
>You have to be good enough at strategy to process it in real time
This is the gookclick argument, whether you want it to be or not.

>>718020309
>>718020428
Its ok to be slow and not like these kinds of games as a result but going into cope mode is just sad.

>>718020525
>Heh, I posted from the perspective of an aggressively toxic 14 year old Russian, therefore I win the argument ;)

>>718020525
It's not cope. You're describing tactics, not strategy.

>>718007275
OP still malding that 1 (UNO) game requires APM to be played.

BW is still played to this day, while the shitty not APM intensive games like SC2 and AOE2 are fucking dead and buried.

Trannies cucking everyone basically.

>>718020721
AoE2 is experiencing a revival right now you retard.

>>718020683
you scout your enemy and adapt your strat and apply tactics in battles while also doing macro
if you cant do it play on slow or another game

>>718020721
>BW is still played to this day
Many stupid games are. There's competitive coin flipping and competitive rock-paper-scissors.

>>718020108
Favor it how exactly? You just think it's "favored" because you either don't understand the game enough to even think of any strategies by yourself or you're not good enough and get overwhelmed by the real-time aspect. Or both. This doesn't mean the game isn't strategic, it's literally a skill issue.

>>718020178
That's true, but both your strategy and your mechanical skill only need to be better than your opponent's and he is playing by the exact same rules too. You and him have exactly the same amount of time available.

>>718020721
AoE2 is most certainly not dead, it's one of the most popular RTS games around.

>>718019746
That bitches voice is like a post op tranny though for real. Did a double take the first time she spoke.

>>718020048
It only makes spores a bit stronger vs mutas by themselves cause they can still only damage a single target, what it really does is make defending mutas much stronger cause the bounce benefits from the acid spores three times. So someone running from a bad muta engagemen is less likely to instantly lose the game like they do now cause they can fall back to the force multiplier.

>>718020925
I think it favors real time and execution more than strategy because it objectively does. Do you want me to pull up Artosis saying the same thing? Day9?

>>718021091
Yeah, but the problem is even building a single Spore Colony is something that doesn't happen in every ZvZ because you're probably doing it to expand, which means you're committing a Drone to a Hatchery early, and an Evo, and the Spores. Then you have to hold their all-in and it's only at that point you can win. Most cases, they lose on the Zergling/Muta all-in despite their defenses because they were struck before the expo could pay itself back, at the point when the other Z is strongest.

>>718020909
Brood War is stupid? Say what?
GTFO with that shit. That game is balanced as fuck, it's a marvel and it deserves to be played to this day and for years to come.
You don't have to like it personally but don't call it stupid, that's patently false.

>>718021342
Nah, I'd prefer if it died a miserable death for irreparably shitting up RTS.

>>718021342
>That game is balanced as fuck
So is coin flipping, since both heads and tails have an almost 50% win rate. And so is rock-paper-scissors as each's win rate is almost 33.33%.

You're confusing end results with gameplay. Cut that shit out.

>>718019536
/our guy/ is back bros

>>718019927
A strategic decision made a the beginning of the game depending on what you expect your opponent to do without having information yet, with branching paths depending on what information you acquire.

>but I always strictly follow the same rigid build order I found on the net and win
And it's perfectly okay to have fun being a big fish in the kiddie pool.

>>718022017
That's not what a build order is.

>>718022225
Cool.
Let's hear (you)r definition then, smarty boy.

>>718022374
An efficient order towards a specific goal that involves unit, building, and/or research production. Some RTS don't have them, or they terminate 1 minute into the match.

>>718018254
Shoo shoo, scout.

Is brood war ladder ok for total newbies who have never played a pvp sc game?

>>718021506
>shitting up RTS

It's a descendant of warcraft 1 and 2, except instead of having effectively one faction with two different skins it has three balanced factions. It came into the RTS world early. It's not your flavor, that's fine, but don't call it shit.
I like boomer shooters in the fps world. Doesn't mean I can't recognize other shooters are good without them being my flavor. Please figure this out.

>>718023228
I think Warcraft 1 and 2 are also shit.

>>718022705
That's not what a build order is.

>>718007169 (OP)
dumbest thing i've read today.

>>718023590
That's exactly what a build order is. I'll even copypaste a definition for you.

>A build order is a linear pattern of actions which includes the management of production and research meant to achieve a specific goal within an acceptable period of time while expending as few resources as possible to do so.

>>718023579
Neat. You're right, everyone else is wrong. There's NOTHING to enjoy about Starcraft because it doesn't fit your personal stringent criteria of what an RTS is supposed to be. The differences it has to what you like is not what people enjoy about it, they are all misguided and should play your game of choice instead. Got it.

>>718023598
>talking to a mirror

>>718023780
Yes. If you like shit games I'm going to judge you for it.

>>718024013
You're childish.

>>718023780
Honestly I think you're the bigger fagot because your argument really is "just let people enjoy things!"

>>718024094
No, I have a spine and recognize that this actually is a zero-sum situation.

so, who are we rootin for /v/?

>>718024145
I mean, it's a fucking video game bro... Different video games are testing different strengths, and the strengths people enjoy testing vary from person to person. Starcraft is testing different strengths to Command and Conquer or Age of Empires. Unreal Tournament and Quake are testing different strengths to Arma.
They're GAMES. Checkers excels over Chess in some qualities, Chess excels over Checkers in other qualities. Golf is different from basketball. Figure it out this is not hard to understand.

anyone else just builds masses of one type of unit?
marines only
or hydras only
or dragoons only

>>718024518
I can't believe you're stupid enough to bring up Unreal Tournament. That's a series that was literally fucking killed by Epic because Fortnite exists. A UT player would also be fully within their rights to bitch about Quake and vice versa with Quake players about UT.

>>718024673
Did that to beat AoE2's Jeanne d'Arc campaign, mostly because I was fed up with half the missions being "the ennemy start with 4 fully built bases and attack immediatly, have fun!".
Spammed an endless flow of Light Cavalry, powered by infinite resources from farming.
AIs was winning every unit trade. They still got grinded to dust.

>>718024673
Yea I only build carriers because they instantly win the game

>>718025068
do people still not hard control to attack the carriers?

>>718024673
>or hydras only

>>718007169 (OP)
Exactly my thoughts about Total War Shogun 2. I downloaded it because I wanted a comfy strategy game to play while eating.... Hell no, you need to constantly move your pieces in real life and quickly check the camera or change orders, it should have been turn based or at least a slower mode.

>>718024518
Unlike sports, video games don't exist in a vacuum with regard to each other. The ARMA community rightfully despised DayZ and battle royales because it was a bunch of outsiders coming into their game and watering it down. Only stopped because those games split off. SupCom players rightfully despised SupCom 2 because it chased Starcraft 2 and ruined the game in the process. It would have been a better game if Starcraft never existed. That's objective fact.

>>718025327
> it should have been turn based
If you want turn-based Total War, the closest will be the Heroes of Might and Magic series.
Either HoMM1 if you want something simple to begin, or HoMM3 if you want to get serious immediately.

>>718024701
UT2004 is my favorite shooter of all time.
Epic killing UT does not mean I attack Fortnite players for not enjoying what qualities UT has over Fortnite. These two games test very different strengths, they are different GAMES. Please drill the word "games" into you head.

Epic are assholes mainly for killing the old UT game master servers which were still in use.
The new UT wasn't doing too good. It frankly would have done better had it had the speed of UT2004 since that was the UT game that most UT players were playing at that time. For some reason they wanted slower UT99 speed, whatever.
In a better reality they would have kept UT going regardless. But again, I'm not going to attack Fortnite players.

>>718024518
Yeah see this is why you're a fagot. You lost an already shallow argument against someone who is probably a troll, and instead of just realizing you've been dupped you both doubled downed and moved the goal posts so you can make an even worse play that has added extra nails to your coffin of trying to act morally superior.

>>718025826
>I'm not going to attack Fortnite players.
You should. Even beyond that, it's an exploitative game.

>>718024673
Lurkers. If you build enough of them you'll win! They can't attack air but they have to land sometime!

>>718020145
>Rushing was just stressful and boring and often made people leave the game the instant they got rushed.
I remember trying out warcraft 3 on battlenet once, long after its hey-day but before reforged and this was the exact experience I remember. Getting started with buildings and then some militia'd peasants and a hero swoop in and kill everyone. Bottom of the ladder. Instantly put off that something so cheesy and brainless could work. I feel like camps should be randomized somehow so that doesn't happen, so that strategy is riskier to pull off.

>>718010771
competitive multiplayer in rts was a mistake

>>718007804
this is cope. and i think it comes form nerdy incels types telling themselves "at least they are smart" but reality is you are physically a failure and also mentally a failure

>>718027021
It's not cope. Who do you think's going to win, the guy with perfect strategy and 15 APM or the guy with a mediocre strategy and 300 APM that gets his done faster?

>>718019746
calling him a faggot that needs to git gud?

>>718025826
UT2k4 is also my favorite shooter of all time.
The difference between me and you is that:
I can see that Quake 3 sucked some of the air out of it and I appreciate no part of Quake 3, so I hate Quake 3 and its players.
I can see that UT3 killed the momentum of the series by being Gears bro pandering shit, so I hate UT3 and its players.
I can see that UT4 had potential but was given a skeleton crew on purpose, so I hate Epic.
I can see that Fortnite starved UT4 of resources even further because it was a money maker by pandering to trends and being exploitative with battle passes and loot boxes while also being a shit game, so I hate Fortnite and its players.

>>718027306
it's mega cope. a pro aoe2 player got to 1600 elo while playing with a mod that limited him to 60 apm. when you look at replays of the kind of player who complains about apm you will find that they have long periods where they have 0 apm because they're just watching the screen.

>>718007169 (OP)
>/v/
games that don't require skill are trash, i'm a hardcore gamer
>also /v/
aaaa please save me from games that require skill, i'm a hardcore gamer

Which ASL season should I half-watch to prep for the upcoming one?

>>718028665
the one with the blind and frozen theme song

>>718028719
I have no idea which one that is. I've half-watched them all multiple times.

>>718028835
maybe 4 or 5? i don;t know either

>>718027306
>perfect strategy
what does this mean? are you talking about build order? someone who creates twice the amount of resources for himself will crush someone mindlessly clicking.

>>718028396
Now do it on 10. You can't? Thought so.

>>718029262
No I'm not talking about build order you retard.

>>718029497
so explain what perfect strategy means and give an example in a game

>>718024673
That zerg mission where you gotta take a drone with a crystal to a point on the other ass end of the map with like 4 different protoss bases. I was tired as hell and didn't have it in me to try, so I made a dozen macro hatcheries and spammed zerglings. After a while I realized I wasn't going to have enough minerals to clear all the protoss out, so eventually I went to 200 supply and move ordered all my lings the point with the crystal drone somewhere in the middle of them. It took over half an hour to beat the mission like this.

>>718028353
>so I hate Quake 3 and its players.
i hate you too bitch

>>718029679
Strafe jump this dick, faggot.

>>718029572
The reavers and ht's didn't rape you?

>>718026913
>Losing to militia and a human hero

Either a trash map, or trash gameplay

>>718029826
go and play with your shock rifle little punk

>>718029407
>person playing game can beat person who refuses to play

>>718029543
Imagine a player who perfectly anticipates every move from his opponent and knows exactly what to do to counter them, instinctively. Say it's, I don't know, peak Flash except he went to the USA for a trip, got hit in the head and spine in a random chimpout 80 times, and now he's brain damaged and physically crippled so his ability to execute sucks.

He'll lose against mediocre players in BW or SC2 because forcing him to multitask is an instant GG every time.

>>718030183
imagine you are standing over light's shoulder watching him play. he pauses the game and says in broken engrish "tell me everything I need to do in the next 15 seconds." even if you had unlimited time to think about it you would still miss half of the things he was actually planning on doing. your apm isn't low because your hands are too slow, it's low because you don't know what you should be doing and can't put your hands to work doing it.

>>718032004
Actually I'd miss all of them because I'd tell him the game fucking sucks instead of answering his question.

>>718023221
no

>>718023221
I think you could probably play dozens of games before seeing a victory.

>>718023228
The races are all so imbalanced they became balanced unlike sc2.

>>718025068
>>718025168
Marine medic can beat carriers if you don't have any splash. They shoot down interceptors faster than you can build them.

>>718033291
It really can't. If Flash couldn't make it work in a professional setting, no one can. He even fooled the Protoss for a good amount of time.