Thread 718040980

Admit it, shmups are too hard for you.

>no level design or interesting movement
>autoscroller
Poop genre.

I'm bad at most arcade-style games but I play them anyway if they're enjoyable and just push through or get walled. Also:

Vic Viper > Raiden > Silverhawk > Arrowhead > Twinbee = Ikaruga > Arwing > Silvergun > Solvalou > CNCS1 > Axelay > Gauntlet

>>718040980 (OP)
Already admitted that, I'll just gitgud

>>718040980 (OP)
True. I still play them regularly though. Maybe some day...

>>718040980 (OP)
i don't like the mainstream retail release stuff

>still no 1CC
I'm trying!

>>718042302
How is this? I love Yuzo but $20 is just a little steep unless it's more than just good.

>>718042332
psst, anon...
http://archive.org/details/earthion-world-en-aftermarket

>>718042481
I'd like to support Ancient if possible but I'll save this just in case. Thank you my friend.

>>718042332
only real complaint is bullet visibility, otherwise it's a hardcore Genesis shmup that doesn't hold your hands and I love it

>>718042481
does this just run on a megadrive emulator or something?
that's crazy.

>>718040980 (OP)
Shumps without flying underage Japanese magical girls just aren't as good as spaceships.

>>718043403
Oh yes, even on a real megadrive/genesis with a flashcard. Go nuts

>>718043415
You're right, 2hufag

>>718040980 (OP)
Yes. Now what?

Yeah maybe, and also maybe I'm not a masochist.

>>718040980 (OP)
Kinda. At least in the sense that, I don't like shmups because I find going after 1CCs to be tedious, namely because so much of the genre kinda looks and feels the same until you get into the nitty gritty, so having to replay one a whole bunch of times just to get the 1CC so you can then move on to another game that feels like so much of the same but is different enough that it's a WHOLE other thing to learn and 1CC: it's untenable. I guess if I was better and could 1CC in 2-3 plays, I wouldn't have that issue.

I don't think I'll ever 1cc DoJ
I like easier shmups but these harder ones require so much practice and for the stars to align, I have a lot of respect for people that can do shit like 2-alls

Right now I'm pretty close to 1-alling the original R-Type. I've always fucking loved the game so might as well. It's also super easy and cheeseable so I don't have to be too stressed about it either.

>>718040980 (OP)
>*filters me*

>>718047694
one of the coolest shmup artworks ever. good luck on the clear. 2 is good also if you want more of a challenge, just make sure its the jp rom

>>718048036
I'm using a really nice trick with the previous stage's boss. There's a yellow weapon carrier that spawns right inside the boss screen. The trick is to avoid the yellow weapon pickup as you kill the boss with the red weapon, but then quickly pick it up right as the boss dies. Starting with the yellow weapon makes the early parts of this stage much easier. The 4th and 7th stages are the only tricky ones because there are parts where you have to switch the force pod back and forth really quickly. 5th stage boss is also bullshit because of RNG.

>>718040980 (OP)
>Admit it, shmups are too hard for you.
I'm saying it for years. Still coming back to shmupping every other months just to give up again.

I beat the volcano and the boss afterwards in gradius then stopped. Game probably doesn’t get harder than that.

>>718052165
>t. shitthetic tran

>>718040980 (OP)
I've played a few and come to the conclusion that it's the autoscrolling aspect I don't like. Any good free roam shooters out there?

>>718052282
In The Hunt

>>718052165
I got all the way to the boss on the second to last stage before finally realizing that mashing was 10x better then holding down the fire button (nes version).

>>718040980 (OP)
Jets'n'Guns 1 and 2 are pretty good.

>>718041287
>No level design
What?

>>718052437
it's a straight line

>>718052492
Yeah, there's stuff in that line, dingus.

>>718052492
No.
There are two styles of shmup level design:
>direct: terrain, environmental hazards, etc. (classic shmups like Gradius, R-Type, Image Fight, etc.)
>indirect: primarily enemy-driven design (more modern shmups like Dodonpachi, Garegga, Touhou, etc.)

>>718040980 (OP)
yeah no shit i knew that 35 years ago when Abadox on the NES destroyed me, never got past the 4th stage

>30 minute games
lol
All I have to do to win is press continue

>>718052859
and you arent really satisfied with that, are you? loser.

>>718040980 (OP)
Shmups are too hard for everyone.
But that's why you play it, to overcome the extreme challenge. How extreme you want is another story, but they are always games that will kill you a lot and require some patience and practicing.

>>718043415
And as usual, that reminds me there is no shmup purely about magical girls. As in, the genre, not merely the aesthetics.
The closest thing is Otomedius of all things, since it's a plot about high schoolers transforming into ships. You can see a vague reference to MGs.

>>718053020
Why wouldn't I be? I beat the game. I rode the ride, on to the next one.
GAMES
AS
A
THEME PARK

>>718053020
>just make your own fun bro!
Why are shmuptards like this

>>718054506
That's inherent part of arcade design, and there's nothing wrong with giving more agency to the player.
You are basically admitting you think you should be treated like a retard who doesn't have his own will and objectives.

>>718040980 (OP)
Yeah. Ikaruga looks cool, but I'm generally pretty shit at games so I don't bother.

>>718055481
Ikaruga is a meme game. There's not much fun to be had.

You know who she is and what to do when you see her.

>>718040980 (OP)
They aren't

Bounced pretty hard off shmups, but absolutely fell in love with the few rail shooters and light gun games I've played

>shmup thread on /v/
>actual discussion
>different opinions but still respectful
>discussion about design and gameplay
>actually not bad
>shmup thread on /vr/
>zero gameplay
>nonstop jerking off other players for being so hardcore and elite
>constant lamenting that the new generation doesn't want to get good despite being demonstrably false
Is it a shmup thing or is /vr/ just garbage?

>>718057335
It's a "you don't come here often" thing.
But sure, /v/ ain't that bad when you avoid the blatant ragebait/off-topic threads.

>>718057335
/vr/ mods seem to have faced some sort of mass extinction event recently
the board went from highly curated discussion where no shitposting was allowed to total free reign of users
there was an incident where some sperg spammed trap hentai for over an hour before finally being banned

>>718057442
>/vr/ mods seem to have faced some sort of mass extinction event recently
After the hack in April? Yeah, that was bound to make some mods consider leaving, unfortunately it mostly affected the decent ones.

>>718040980 (OP)
I'm getting there. I could play Final 2 on Bydo fairly easily but going back to Final is giving me problems. Especially since emulating it eliminates the lag. I find myself dying much more than when I was playing it on real hardware before the fan in my PS2 popped.

>>718040980 (OP)
>play rtype final on PS2
>play so badly the game unlocked an infinite credit mode to let me get the bad ending
T-thanks...

>>718057335
You forgot

>Seething over JRPGs

>Memorization
>"""hard"""
lol

>>718058224
That's /vg/

>>718054681
If I want to exercise my own will and objectives then I would play a game with actual choices and reactivity, not chase after imaginary challenges and play pretend that I've achieved something

>>718058362
>chase after imaginary challenges and play pretend that I've achieved something
Sounds like videogames aren't for you then.

>>718058226
Keep in mind this fag in specific is talking about learning frame-perfect chain routes in Dodonpachi.
If he was a real gamer and played an actually good shmup like Garegga he wouldn't have such an attitude.

>>718058398
>he plays video games for a simulated sense of achievement and not because he finds them intrinsically enjoyable
Saddest shit I've ever seen

>>718058943
>and not because he finds them intrinsically enjoyable
Projection.
Finding them enjoyable is why you like to challenge yourself in arcade style games in the first place, so you can appreciate gameplay on a deeper level than feeding your way to the credits.

>>718058226
This retard is complaining about shit he didn't have to do. No one FORCES you to play memoshit like Dodonpachi where you need to be pixel perfect to get a full chain for every level.

>>718041287
fpbp

>>718058226
>Play memotrash bullet hells
>complain about it not being fun

The music, sound and visual design of these games is underrated. Some are very stylish. It's a shame we went from the stimulating lights and sounds of arcade to brown and grey.

>>718059020
>so you can appreciate gameplay on a deeper level
A "deeper level" which is only relevant to the arbitrary challenge you've currently decided upon and not the game's actual design as it really is

The main problem with shmups is that mechanics are a crutch

>>718059691
We have been there many times, there is nothing arbitrary about scoring or 1cc, the devs fully embraced and soon enough started designing games around being clearable that way, along with adding content gated behind it.
And it's beyond the point, you could say that a full NMNB run which is genuinely unintended is also letting you appreciate mechanics on a deeper level... well, aside from bombing mechanics, that is.

>*hits blunt*
>dude isn't like, everything in life arbitrary bro
>woah...

I like playing them occasionally but they are a uniquely extremely stressful genre.
A vast majority of the time in them is spent milimeters from death as you navigate a veritable curtain of bullets

If a game has a fully fleshed out and enjoyable scoring system, engaging with it is by no means "arbitrary".

>>718040980 (OP)
The only shmup i liked was Go Berylium and Tyrian. If its not those 2 i don't care. I'm not playing that Tohou shit, that looks annoying as fuck

>>718059801
>a full NMNB run which is genuinely unintended
Actually not really, Ketsui went there for the Ura loop.
Devs in this genre cater to the hardcore players. Although that doesn't mean you have to play Ketsui only for Ura loop runs, there is also Omote or the typical 1-ALL(which will most likely send you in omote anyway)

>>718059891
>the only shmup I liked was [not a shmup] and [not a shmup]
>I'm not playing that [strawman]

>>718060038
Damn, the only 2 i liked weren't even the genre, seems like a bad genre

what is hard about them?
the only skill is being autistic enough to be willing to endlessly repeat the levels until you memorized all patterns

the whole genre is literally designed for autistic people

>>718060075
>doesn't even play any games before declaring the entire genre to suck
Interesting!
>>718060115
Try that in Garegga and see how far you can get ;)

>>718041287
fpbp
autists just cant comprehend this

>>718060163
>>718059280
samefag

>>718060214
extremely buttmad autist his video game genre sucks

hahahaha

>>718040980 (OP)
Too booring*
I like SOME of them tho.

>>718060163
It's almost like these things aren't the only way to create engaging gameplay. You are the autistic one if you think the idea of videogames is restricted to movement tech(which only exists due to artificial limitations, in shmups you can move all around the screen) or that autoscrolling cannot possibly co-exist with good level design, shmups literally prove that wrong.

I havent played a shump for 10+ years and pic. related was the last one i played

>>718060283
*because

>>718060283
>no one can edit screenshots

Shmupfags are the worst because they think shmups are the peak of video game design and in fact everything that isn't designed like a shmup is shit.

>>718060317
autistic
>>718060338
buttmad

>>718060381
>no argument
Concession accepted.

>>718060317
>shmupfag calling others autistic
yey

>>718060423
That seems to be the case given the argument in question.

>>718060396
you are autistic and shmups are a shit genre made for faggots that have no skill

no i will not elaborate

>>718060115
>>718060283
Shitters coping hard

>>718060461
I already accepted your concession.

>>718060423
>nonshmupper says retarded shit that has no grounds in reality
>shmupfag carefully, calmly explains why he's wrong
>YOU STUPID FUCKING SHMUPFAGS ARE THE REAL AUTISTS YOU STUUUUUUUPID FUCKING CHUDS
Why are anti-shmup schizos so mentally deranged and disingenuous.

>>718060486
Get a grip, retard.

>>718060486
A common symptom of autism is the inability to accept other people's tastes and preferences. Another is hyperfixating on random subjects for no reason.

>>718060486
>Why are anti-shmup schizos so mentally deranged and disingenuous.
They tried it once and get filtered. They're losers

>>718060528
>A common symptom of autism is the inability to accept other people's tastes and preferences.
Which is why you keep joining these threads about a genre you don't like.

>>718059801
>there is nothing arbitrary about scoring or 1cc
There are countless shmups where these things are 100% arbitrary. There are exceptions, but the curious thing is that shmuptards make no distinction about whether it's arbitrary or not. If a game wasn't designed around something or doesn't acknowledge it in any way, then that thing is entirely arbitrary and self-imposed by the player. You're not deepening your understanding of a game, you're conjuring your own separate metagame on top, because you feel the need to add something "extra". The game feels incomplete to you (and you're right) so you do the developer's job in your head. The definition of "making your own fun".

>>718060528
>A common symptom of autism is the inability to accept other people's tastes and preferences.
Like you?

>>718060571
>if a game wasn't designed around something
Any shmup with a good scoring system that people engage in was designed around it. It is also clearly recognized by the game in an objective, clear manner.

>>718040980 (OP)
no they arent i like cave and i like 2hu and i like crimzon clover and i like r-type and and i think shmups are fun ´∀`

>>718060486
More than one person can not like something.

>>718060486
Way to prove his point retard.

>>718060571
>but the curious thing is that shmuptards make no distinction about whether it's arbitrary or not.
Because it doesn't fucking matter. Although it's nice that the devs cater to that when they do, and they did very early all things considered.

>>718060643
NTA but
>anti-shmup schizos
He's clearly implying that he believes it to be multiple people.

>>718060678
And he might not be entirely correct since I'm pretty sure there is a very insistent anti-shmup schizo crossboarding between /v/ and /vr/ only to start shit.

>>718060880
He's not in this thread, though. You can always tell when it's him because he starts sperging out over his story of supposedly being told that the only way to improve in under defeat is to "get good".

>>718060486
>politely point out issues i have with shmups expecting a reasonable refutation and discussion
>get absolutely schizo nonsense including spamming tranny porn and nonstop spam of "le zoomies le zoomes"

>>718060987
The dude below you definitely is though. I have seen those exact arguments before.

Play Shmups. Read ridiculous Shmup backstories. Pure videogame joy

>>718060987
>>718061105
He could be any one of us, he could be you, he could be me, he could even be-

more like
>point out made-up issues that aren't actually problems and just dismiss any refutation as schizo nonsense

>>718040980 (OP)
I was at an arcade in Japan once watching a guy play a shmup and everytime he died he shook like a crack addict and got really mad, then when he game overed he kicked the machine and glared at me when he got up (I did giggle)

>>718061145
AHHHHH SOMEONE IS HATING *MY* GENRE
HE IS MULTIPLE PEOPLE AHHHHHHH
SAVE ME NIGGERMAN

I got a r36s just to play the old pc98 touhou on it, but it's laggy. Do you know any good any good games from psx and older?

>>718060357
Worse yet is that they don't seem to be able to appreciate anything that isn't constant, forward driven momentum. The games themselves are very limited, which is why there's never really much innovation in them. They're a very boring genre to most people, which is why they're so niche.

>>718061386
Playing and appreciating shmups doesn't preclude you from doing the same in other genres.
>inb4 but le eceleb said
Think for yourself, zoom zoom.

>>718040980 (OP)
Nice stuff, I think I have some hard surface modelling practice to do.

>>718061386
>Rayforce isn't innovation
>Mars Matrix isn't innovation
>Soukyugurentai isn't innovation
>Zeroranger isn't innovation
>Battle Garegga isn't innovation
>Radiant Silvergun isn't innovation
>Ikaruga isn't innovation
>Hellsinker isn't innovation
What exactly would count as innovation in your eyes?

>>718061524
none of these innovated
you're a ship that shoots bullets that move around an autoscrolling screen

>>718060638
If score is an integral part of the gameplay then you should be able to judge it on those terms. Explain what makes it so a particular scoring system is well-suited to a particular set of gameplay mechanics and why it's not just an afterthought. Don't say "well complex scoring = good", if you shmupfags think critically about this genre as much as you pretend to then you should be able to make real arguments.

>>718061580
This is actual mental illness
Do you sincerely think that as long as the character shoots projectiles and it's an autoscroller, there's literally no range in what you can do?

>>718061654
Yes

>>718061524
>Radiant Silvergun
1993
>Mars Matrix
2000
>Soukyugurentai
1997
>Zeroranger
2018
>Battle Garegga
1996
>Radiant Silvergun
1998
>Ikaruga
2001
>Hellsinker
2004-07

One game that isn't 20+ years old. I think you did more to prove my point than anything I could have said.

>>718061635
Scoring adds the extra layer of dedication and depth to a game by adding objectives outside of basic survival. So, for example, in a game like Rayforce, you have the lock on beam for background enemies, and you can play through the entire game just spamming the button with no consideration, but this becomes boring over time, and eventually you get into the scoring system, where locking on to multiple enemies at once before unleashing the beam is rewarded with higher score. It requires you to tackle the stages in a much more structured and interesting way and adds an extra layer of risk-reward dynamics.

>>718061816
Structured play isn't what I'm looking for in a game. Routing and rote memorization is boring.

>>718061804
NTA but that Anon talking about older games doesn't necessarily imply anything other than the fact that it's a niche genre which doesn't see too many big releases anymore.

>>718061635
That depends on your preferences really.
Some people want scoring to reflect survival ability, so the best scoring system for these would be things like bonuses for progressing with the least amount of mistakes, others like additional meta but prefer it simple, such as collecting score items that drop from enemies, and others want very involved mechanics that require strict routing such as enemy chains.

>>718061862
this is all shmups have to offer which is why autists like them so much

there's no variance to them

>>718061804
No.
Your point was that it's impossible for a shmup to innovate.
I pointed out several examples of shmups that did innovate.
There is nothing else to say here. You are fundamentally wrong.
The fact that you deflected by bringing up something completely irrelevant is a concession.

>>718061863
It implies literally everything when the original point was that the genre has barely innovated. Mentioning 32 year old games is absolute proof.

>>718062016
>soukyugurentai
>innovate
>literally doesn't work because of bad programming
lmfao

>>718062016
>autistic

>>718062016
Sometimes I wonder what it would be like to lack abstract thought and understanding.

>>718062023
>shmups never innovated
>actually, here's a list of shmups that innovated
>ERRR YOU STUUUUPID FUCKING CHUD ONE OF THESE GAMES IS OLD SO THAT MEANS IT DIDNT INNOVATE KILL YOURSELF NOW
What causes this behavior?

>>718040980 (OP)
Yes

>see anti-shmup schizos bring up incoherent, mentally retarded arguments time and time again
>one day decide to start btfoing these fags left and right
>their only response is to start sperging out and randomly calling me autistic without refuting any of my points whatsoever
Weird.

>>718062178
I didn't say never, you've decided I did. I said barely, which is true, when your argument includes something 32 years old. The point is really simple. The genre has barely innovated, in decades. It's an extremely limited genre with extremely limited options on how to push it forward, otherwise it would happen more often, especially with how insanely dedicated shmup fans are, to the point of excluding all other genres as irrelevant.

Even giving a more charitable view and mentioning the other 20~ year old games, that's still two entire decades ago. It's a stagnant genre with no room for growth in which people are simply playing the same games infinitely.

>>718062301
The matter of the games I included is irrelevant - I am not an omniscient person who knows every single shmup release in the past 20 years - if I really wanted I could do a whole deep dive on the avalanche of niche doujin / indie games out there but I don't have the time for that.
You did not approach the fundamental fact that these games have a variety of approaches and gameplay styles and all innovate the genre in clear ways. I don't know how you could look at something like Hellsinker and think that it somehow proves shmups are too limited to go anywhere.
Thank you for your concession.

>>718062301
>having a free-moving character on a autoscrolling 2d-plane which can literally have any single arrangement of player/enemy abilities is so inherently limiting you just can't do anything with it
You are an extremely unimaginative person.

>>718062438
You can stick your head in the sand and like shmups, but we all know it's a gay genre for fags that hasn't innovated in decades. It's comforting to do the same thing over and over again, like watching The Office for normgroids.

>>718062558
Who is we?

>>718062581
We, the shmup hate alliance discord. We have been purposefully ruining your shmup threads for years now.

>>718062558
>instantly jumps to popularity fallacy after getting owned
lol fag

>>718062536
Then where are all the innovative shmups from the last 20 years?

>>718063148
see >>718062438

>>718063148
If you have to keep moving the goalposts that much, it means your opponents keep scoring.

>>718040980 (OP)
I'll admit that easily.
I think that picture kind of summarizes my main issue with shmups though, and it's not a fair complaint either but:
When I look at pictures like the OP and all the cool spaceships, I want to fly those ships. But the games they're in don't actually let you fly them; you can move them up and down and left and right, but for the most part you're on rails and the ship itself may as well be just a big pixel for how much the ship design matters.

>>718063469
Then I guess that Space citizen is a "game" for you.

>>718065465
>Space citizen
*Star citizen

>>718040980 (OP)
yes but i'm also not really interested in them

>>718065465
>Then I guess that Space citizen is a "game" for you.
I mean, no need for that kind of remark. Freespace 2 has some cool ships and you can fly them all about.
I would like a game that's like Freespace but set in the R-Type or Darius world so you could see more than the auto scrolling corridors show you. I'd love to have the big robot fish enemies and capture ball mechanic in 6DOF.

>>718040980 (OP)
I'll have you know I'm perfectly capable of beating Starfox 64.

yes they are too hard for me which means I should play more of them and get better