Thread 718141949

I still can't believe that they retroactively tried to turn Joel into the bad guy here.

>>718141949 (OP)
he's a man
of course he's the bad guy

>mfw i didn't play the game
from what i gather, the premise is that this girl can save the world if she's handed to sussy scientists who make vaccines
and he says no

stunning and brave, joe

It's like Druckmann forgot his own story. The entirety of TLoU paints the firefies as clueless, incompetent and evil. Even beyond saving Ellie because she's his surrogate daughter, it made sense to save her because it was clear that these retards would kill her for no benefit.

>Retroactively
The point was always "Joel isnt a hero because during "surviving times" there's no good and evil anymore, only suriving.

>>718142114
Nigger, it's a fungal infection. A vaccine won't do shit

>>718141949 (OP)
erm because he made a choice for a woman and that is wrong??? Women are not your property, shitlord

>>718142114
Play the PS5 version of both (Part I & Part II Remastered). Absolute masterpieces of gaming and visuals.

>>718142496
This, but stop after Part I.

>>718142475
Vaccine means "picked from a cow".

>No, Dina you don't get it. They are the last of us, too.

Bravo, Druckmann.

>>718142475
but i got the right of it? or no?
it was because of some "value of one human life" shit and not because "this is my cunny you can't have it"

>>718142601
Why do you even try to interject yourself into a discussion when you have no idea what is going on?

>>718142490
Thats literally also what the Fireflies were going to do to her as well.
>>718142114
This isnt the whole story. The fireflies were shown as incompetent and stupid throughout the entire first game to instill doubt in the player and by proxy Joel to get you to doubt them. The idea was that they werent even competent or moral enough to even make or handle the vaccine.

>>718142528
But if he stop at Part I he will miss the "No Return" rouguelike mode in Part II Remastered, which is insanely fun...

>>718142601
The thing is Joel was even looking beyond saving his daughter to make up for his own loss. He accounted for all of the variables. It was not an entirely selfish decision whatsoever. The cure was a lie

Ellies lovely budding 14 yo breasts

>>718141949 (OP)
>"FUCK YOU JOEL I WANTED TO DIE TO SAVE THE WORLD, SHOULD HAVE LET THEM SCOOP MY BRAIN MY OUT YOU SELFISH FUCK"
>"have kids? but like dicks are so icky ewwwww"

>>718142726
how did her forehead get so big
>>718142708
>>718142641
so is he gonna make the vaccine on his own then

>>718141949 (OP)
I still can't believe you fucks liked TLOU enough to give a shit about how the sequel's story unfolded.

>>718142831
What all know what would have happened irl.

>>718142726
OG is the hottest

>>718142641
the point is that it wasn't his decision
he took that decision away from her

>>718142976
>PS3 Ellie
>Better than Part I & II
Eww, what a gay opinion.

>>718142831
Nobody would want to watch ellie just pumping out potentially immune babies instead of having a journey

>>718142836
No the point is that nobody was even going to come close to making a vaccine. The people who were claiming to be able to do it were shown as grossly incompetent throughout the entire game and the main idea was that they were a pretty rough and rogue group of people that didnt deserve it regardless. Literal terrorists.

>>718143090
The fireflies were going to do the same exact thing. So theyre no better.

>>718143090
Yeah, no shit retard. Women shouldn't be allowed to make decisions in general, much less barely post-pubescent girls. Do you think it's stunning and brave to give a 12 year old girl the decision to stay up all night eating chocolate, or do you take that decision away from her for her own good?

>>718143123
just to be clear, were the *morally incompetent* in the sense of they were literal terrorists and murders and so on. were they a bunch of bandits? were actual scientists part of the group?

because it's sounding a lot like
>i'd rather have everyone die than let the terrorists win

>>718142114
She can't save the world, the world already ended. Best case scenario they isolate how Ellie's particular fungus fucked up and missed the brain and manage to replicate it, increasing the survival rate of zombie attacks in those who get it. World is still full of zombies who will tear immune people apart, society still collapsed, even if they had means to mass produce it they'd use it as a power play rather than altruistically. Also they never paid Joel so he has every right to be pissed even if the "cure" was a thumb drive and not a surrogate daughter.

>>718143108
>Nobody would want to watch ellie just pumping out potentially immune babies
I would.

Fun fact: Casey Affleck managed to make a movie about Drukmann OG idea (he discarded it because was misogynistic according to Anita "the tumor of videogames" Sarkeesian).
If you like these types of stories (man has to take care of a young one/young girl) watch it, it's an indiekino.
Plot is: a pandemic erased female population on Earth* and the daughter of the main is the only one immune to it. She's hitting puberty tho so her father is starting to struggling passing her as "his son".
*no more females means no future for mankind bc no more babies, with those already around being the last generation of men...like, ya know, they're "the last of us"

>>718143294
When you guide book on handling a one of a kind immune person is
Step 1: kill the patient
Step 2: see what we can learn
They're incompetent on every level.

>>718143240
>when you run out of real things to say and just crash out.

>>718143294
They were shown throughout the game provoking violence and they even had doubts about the vaccine as well. Not to mention you found one dead in a lot of parts of the game and mention of them not doing well. Thats what was portrayed in the first game. The rest is a retcon.

>>718143432
>these types of stories (man has to take care of a young one/young girl)

you mean pedophile movies?

>>718143458
so he was worried she'd die for nothing.
if it was the same exact scenario but you knew 100% they could make the vaccine, what would joe do?

>>718143529
Probably the same.

>>718143529
>if
Entirely different variables. He was sussed out when they werent even going to let him see her one last time. Thats sketchy as fuck and totally wrong.

>>718143294
They're terrorists and ALSO fucking retarded. You constantly come across abandoned bases/outposts that they constantly had to fall back from/were all killed at.

And then you find shit like this, which is pure stupidity.

The fact that the guy in charge of the research didn't even bother to take a simple blood test first and went right to vivisection speaks volumes.

>>718143454
I don't know anon, I think he rebuked you pretty soundly. Children aren't given free reign for a reason, they need guidance and thus restraint. Besides, as someone else pointed out, the fireflies didn't give her a choice either

>>718143454
Yeah that seems to be what you're doing. I asserted that a father figure is entirely morally justified in removing harmful decisions from his surrogate daughter. Now you're just giving up and greentexting. GG no RE.

>>718143506
No trannigger, it's called father/paternity trope. Now go dilate before kys.

>>718143695
you've been psyopped by 4chan into thinking all women are all brainwashed whores so you want a clean and pure child to nurture and love instead.

>>718141949 (OP)
Am I the only person who thought the first game didn't have good writing? It was okay, but it used too many tropes. The kid who is hiding his infection, the evil woman who has a sudden change of heart and sacrifices herself, the we killed the children to spare them people. That's just off the top of my head, I'm sure the list goes on. You probably only thought it was good if you've never seen any other zombie movie in your life.
>they retroactively tried to turn Joel into the bad guy
Joel was never a good guy. He's a criminal smuggler in a quarantine zone. It's implied that he's involved in the human trafficking and drug trade. His literal job in the game is to traffick a minor across the country. He's also a psychotic, if you didn't pick up on this I don't know what to tell you. Go watch the ending again, look at Ellie's expression and how it cuts to black. It's incredibly obvious they were going for a dark ending. It's awkward. Joel has finally snapped, he just murdered a whole hospital full of the only people in the world looking for a cure because he suddenly decided to project his feelings for his dead daughter onto a precocious little twit.
The second game picks up as if Ellie was Joel's surrogate daughter, if anything she was a prisoner of his delusion. I don't know how they missed the mark so hard in the sequel. Apparently the majority of the audience did to.

>>718143772
At least i wasn't psyopped into believing i'm something I will never be.

>>718141949 (OP)
How long was she passed out ????

The doctor attacked Joel btw.

>>718143772
>clean and pure child
NTA, Did nobody play the game? Ellie is a snarky little pig. If she was my daughter I'd have whooped her stupid little ass 20 times before the end of the game for being such a shithead. She nearly gets Joel killed and spends half the game antagonizing him. You're both fucked in the head.

>>718143971
probably 4 to 6 hours

>>718141949 (OP)
Maybe, I dunno, it's a complicated issue and the game wasn't saying it was either right or wrong, only that there are consequences and he pays them.

>>718144059
cool but you're unfuckable so you'll never have a daughter.

>>718143637
i don't really care if they're terrorists, tho?
why would that even factor into it

>>718144083
That's not what your mom thinks.

>>718144060
Fucking imagine...

>>718144090
Nigga, what the fuck are you doing? You entered a thread about a game you don't know and start defending the conclusions you pulled out of your ass. What is wrong with you?

>>718144121
she wouldn't think that

>>718144090
Because they're not going to share it with anyone they're not ideologically aligned with.

>>718144052
And he was Black.

>>718142496
2 is an unplayable lie

>>718144313
>Nigger brain surgeon
The sci-fi part is already covered by the fungus pandemic. You don't want to go beyond limits to avoid breaking the audience suspension of disbelief.

>>718144445
They retcon him to be white in the sequel.

>>718144313
>>718144445
He wasn't black, you dimwits.

>>718141949 (OP)
>retroactively
The first game already did that tho.

>>718144121
My mom thinks you're a 3/10 at best and that you smell like Monster energy and overdue rent. Try harder, unbased cringe gremlin.

Cuckmann's intention was to ALWAYS have Joel decision to be framed as an evil one. It's just that for the first game he was retard wrangled by other writers who weren't complete jewish psychos like him and could actually relate to a father wanting to save his daughter so they saved us from this clusterfuck.

Sadly, for the DLC and 2nd game, he had full reign and now we see how it turned out.

>>718144195
>nuh-uh no she doesn't
>>718144650
>cringe gremlin
I'm going to have a stern talk with your mother about what she's been feeding you two. This shit is weak.

>>718142114
>the premise is that this girl can save the world if she's handed to sussy scientists who make vaccines
wrong

it's been so long, can someone remind me:
did the fireflies tell ellie she was not going to survive the biopsy?
if yes, joel is a fucking faggot and wrong
if no, the fireflies are faggots and deserved everything that happened and joels only mistake was not telling the truth afterwards because he was scared of ellies reaction

>>718142496
>masterpiece
those media stink from 10km around, never played this shit and i was keking so hard when my garbage sensor revealed to be true when the second game got released.
worked flawlessly for 20 year too, never watched Lost, Game of throne, but i still hate watched the anime Attack on titan despite knowing it would have shit ending (and i couldn't have been more right)

>>718144838
>did the fireflies tell ellie she was not going to survive the biopsy?
She knew it was a possibility, but they kind of hid the fact that everyone else they'd tried to biopsy had died and they'd learned nothing so far.

>>718141949 (OP)
>OG writer that made the first good one wasn't jewish
>goyim's works are not their own and can be claimed by any chosonite
>druckman comes in to ruin it and just copies some netflix finale and pastes it into TLoU after some kosher perversions added

>>718144838
Fireflies deserved everything that happened to them because they hired a very dangerous man to do a job and then kicked him out without paying on completion.

>>718142114
people with any intelligence know that handing her over will NOT "save the world" because vaccines don't work on anything other than DNA viruses.
they don't work on RNA viruses
and they definitely don't work on Funguses.

>>718147240
That's not even close to the issue. A terrorist group has no way of handing out doeses, no one is gonna trust a terrorist group, bullets still kill people, clickers still kill people, resources are still low, they betrayed a man who has no qualms taking revenge, and on top of it all, they aren't even letting Ellie know they are killing her for all of this.

>>718142114
When you play Joal through the area leading up to saving Ellie (in the original PS3 version, not the versions that came later that they altered) you find a series of recording informing Joel that they'd done this before, and it's failed every single time before. They figure Ellie will die and that they won't get anything out of it like every time before but they're willing to try again for a sub-1% chance it will work this time. She's not even the first person they'd cut up and killed.

Then you get to the room and the guy from the Last of Us Part 2 isn't even there (a white guy, abbey's father) because in the original version the guy about to cut into Ellie that Joel shoots is a black dude.

The Last of Us Part 2 was never intended to happen, they literally had to retcon the Last of Us 1 in further versions of 1 to make 2 make sense.

>>718143602
I forgot, did they told him they were going to kill her before knocking him out? But yeah, they knocked him out, stole his shit and let him out to die in front of their base.
>>718143458
that's the thing too. Even if a vaccine could have been made, they are altruistic people. They were not going to save the world, but use the vaccine as a way to gain more power and control over people.

>>718143432
There's already a very well known comic called Y: The Last man about the inverse of that. I think they even made a tv series about it.

>>718144586
That's black lol

>>718142114
Not really, at least from what's presented to you.

>1. It's implied they tried this shit before with others and it didn't fully work so instead of trying to breed Ellie they immediately jump the gun
>2. Vaccine wouldn't really do much aside from maybe provide a small safety net. Infected can still kill you the old fashioned way and that's probably the more likely outcome in a bad encounter with em anyway
>3. Even if we assume magic "just trust me bro they would've created it" meta narrator affirmation, development and distribution of said vaccine would've been a logistical nightmare at that point. Besides the world had basically adapted/moved on already.
>4. Based on everything we see and hear about the Fireflies (including in game collectibles) its repeatedly shown they are colossal incompetent fucking retards who tend to make things worse wherever they go. Most likely scenario if they did make a vaccine/cure would be to use it as a mean for power only to end up getting bulldozed by other factions the second they learned they had it. This would most likely result in the vaccine getting destroyed in the struggle and make it all for nothing because they are retards.

>>718148751
>Based on everything we see and hear about the Fireflies (including in game collectibles) its repeatedly shown they are colossal incompetent fucking retards who tend to make things worse wherever they go.
They are also actively firebombing government institutions and leading to the destruction of quarantine zones. If I remember right the reason they formed was because the government wasn't taking their theories about a cure seriously early on so they decided to essentially become terrorists out of spite and make a cure themselves. Since the government is still around they've basically burned the bridge of working with them to get any sort of vaccines out even if it did work making it completely and utterly irrelevant outside of whatever their own faction can make and even then no one would trust them because of how radical they are.

>>718148951
They were just a bunch of jackasses who wanted to use a hypothetical cure for a power grab which would have inevitably failed

>>718148062
A complete different story

>>718141949 (OP)
>situation in which the main character is unambiguously the good guy
>um actually here is my 10,000 page essay with out of character knowledge on why the "vaccine" for fungus would have worked and the world would have been totally fixed and gone back to the pre apocalypse!! Joel is very morally Grey and the ending is complex!

Yeah, I mean I think the organization ending was supposed to have a lot of subtext, Ellie is obviously aware of what happened she is way more intuitive and emotionally intelligent than Joel. She knew the truth the entire time. Joel was lying because he didn't want her to feel guilty not because he didn't want her to know about the firefly claims to having a cure. There is no way the fireflies would have any knowledge of her condition after only 2 hours max of testing her with one surgeon that was 20 years out of practice and whatever random shitty hospital tech they could make work. The entire second game undermines both of their characters. The only way you can make Joel look like the bad guy is if you purposefully redact every part of the story that justifies his actions, he never told ellie how they drugged her and held him at gun point or anything else. He just gave a weirdly biased account against himself to ellie because the writers wanted it? I can only rationalize it as him feeling guilty for "taking away her choice" but that's fucking bullshit. There is no way ellie wouldn't have agreed woth his actions if she had the full context in either game.

>>718147484
>no one is gonna trust a terrorist group
like the taliban?

>>718142323
He didn't write TLoU1

>>718143861
The first game is just The Road in video game form with a hebe character that was engineered in a lab to be the oerfect daughter bait character for adult men. Thats it. It was a trope ridden zombie game with a thought provoking ending, it was not worth this weird cult of remaster and remakes and shitty TV shows centered around it

How the fuck were they going to mass produce a vaccine? They are so resource poor they need to scam people for guns and resort to suicide bombing civilian checkpoints. The main hospital they resided in was dirty as shit.

This thread is stupid because you guys only think in black and white, no in between. Meanwhile all the decisions and consequences in the game are in a gray area:

Yes, what Joel did was fucked up, but i also agree with his decision. It's really that simple.
Yes, he is a bad guy from the perspective of the game's humanity, but he is a good guy from our perspective. Even Tommy totally agrees with his decision, and his people would be directly affected by it.
The fireflies aren't evil, they are just another side of a coin with their own goals and flaws.
>the doctor attacked Joel
How the fuck does it matter at that point since Joel barged into the room with aggressive intent ? such a retarded argument.

NT didn't intend to make Joel seem evil, just to show both sides and perspectives. And literally nobody who played the game, not even normies, don't consider Joel evil. For some reason only 4chan keeps pushing this narrative that "bro they made Joel evil". How does this place fail to see what normies don't. The whole point of the 2nd game was to show both sides/perspectives.

>>718150836
Eh the premise is similar enough, last surviving member of one gender navigating a world now dominated by the other.

>>718152185
Also, Joel is not this symbol of goodness and valor to begin with. He's literally a thug and husk of a man when TLOU 1 starts. He has zero compassion and sympathy. This changes slightly at the end, but it's not like he does a 180. He's still a, relatively, fucked up dude. It's been said a few times that he and Tommy had to do many fucked up things to survive both in P1 and P2. Remember the truck heist from P1? He said he used to be on the other side of that. Also he's really good at torturing people. It's like you guys didn't even play the games. He is only "good" from our perspective.

>>718143123

It's sort of baffling that they go straight to "well, let's cut her head open asap no time to waste." Did they never even consider trying to biopsy part of her brain to see if they could figure something out? If they'd said that was what they were going to do, and there was a risk that it might kill Ellie (but they weren't actively trying to), Joel freaking out and murdering everyone might have come across as more morally ambiguous.

>>718142114
>Get hired by Fireflies to escort immune girl across the country
>Why the fuck aren't they getting their best on this you don't know
>Find all Firefly presence going forward has been eradicated either by bandits or the infected
>Form father-daughter bond with girl
>Finally get to hospital
>Person who hired you somehow beat you there
>They rush girl off for immediate surgery
>Red flags immediately
>Get told they are gonna cut her brain open to see why she's not infected
>Also becomes clear they are going to take you out back and shoot you
Gee, I wonder why.

>>718148751
Was that text in the image written by chatGPT or a brainlet? Not disagreeing with the core point, but the writing is complete shit.

>>718141949 (OP)
the whole thing is fucking stupid, and you can justify the actions of every involved party however you want. the point is that morality is dead, though. no such thing in a world that has already fallen apart. you don't have time for that. what matters is survival. speaking on the cure; it was a possibility. every objection that people have could be addressed. it's all beside the point, though, because people just want to justify whatever they think is right, regardless of how grounded in reality their actions are.

you could argue that it's a hallmark of good writing that this game is still being discussed years after its release, but I think people are just stupid because there's nothing more to discuss. if you wouldn't have fought back against the fireflies, then maybe you're the type of gullible person who wouldn't last long in this sort of world. on the other hand, if you're so enamored by suspicion of everyone and the potential assfucking you could suffer as a result of letting your guard down, then you're probably the type of person who wouldn't have even accepted this sort of mission to begin with, and joel spends a good deal of time trying to talk his girl out of this stupid horseshit. the moment she died, he was absolved of any responsibility for ellie, and I don't understand why he didn't just quit. that is the sane thing to do for someone of his disposition.

>>718142831
Do you think she would still allow herself to get dicked down if she had to

This whole thing exposed TLOU fans are women and fatherless troons.

>>718143108

I wonder if they'd have tried to test if the first baby was immune or not. Could save a lot of time and effort if they weren't, so Ellie wouldn't have to have like 15 kids only to find out none of them were immune so it was a wasted effort.

>>718153296
>This whole thing
which thing exactly? because i am willing to bet billions that the main fanbase of these games are straight men. You have to be a retard to think that more women would play a survival horror 3rd person shooter over guys no matter the story

>>718154159
Yes, I'm sure straight white men LOVE melodramatic third person walking simulators for normalfags.

>>718154403
Yes. You're delusional to think otherwise. I bet you also think most Life is Strange 1 players are women.

>>718152787
hold on, she wasn't even his kid?
lmao

>>718154780
Yes? That's the main audience for Teen Girl Drama: The Game. The only "men" who are into that slop are yuritroons who suffered a utter meldown when the developers themselves showed them that sacrifacing an entire town full of innocent people for a single bitchy danger hair dyke is not something that ends well.

>>718142496
The gameplay in 2 is a step up but holy fuck is the story terrible.

>>718154947
Sure, whatever makes you happy. You're forgetting these games came out 10+ years ago. Women weren't really into gaming yet then. And even now, i would still bet most people who play these games are men. Problem is you live online and think twitch = reality.

>>718148751
>it's implied they tried before
it's not.
>vaccine wouldn't do much, there'd still be zombies
the point of the vaccine is to render impotent the threat of infection, not to rid the world of zombies. they're two separate problems. also, what you said is correct - people have adapted to dealing with the zombies; therefore the larger thread is arguably other people, but the second larger thread is getting infected. part of dealing with the problem of zombies is ensuring that no more can be created, and since they don't proliferate like a living organism, a cure would have effectively ended the supply of newly minted zombies.
>logistics nightmare
we don't know enough about the world to make that determination. roads can be cleared, alternative routes can be chartered, and small communities can cooperate. trade has been conducted for thousands of years by horseback. depending on the scale of the world, it may be more or less of a challenge. plus, I don't buy that it'd be impossible to commandeer and repair functional vehicles that could then be used to deliver supplies, we see random bandits driving around in makeshift tanks so ex-military personnel should be able to do the same, and we know that it hasn't been that long since the world went to shit so there must be some in-good-condition vehicles just sitting around somewhere waiting to be discovered.
>fireflies are incompetent
in the sense that they appear to be a ragtag resistance group of volunteers, yes. however we don't know to what extent they have access to technology and personnel. this is the problem with this game's writing, everything is too fucking vague. we just don't know enough to make determinations about anything, and that's exactly the way the writers want it.

>>718141949 (OP)
What the fuck are you talking about? Did any of the retards in this thread actually play or even watch the game?

>>718155302
I don't think they did. But i am working on that

>>718141949 (OP)
>Retroactively
ABLOO BLOO BLOO MY SURROGATE DAUGHTER THAT I HATED FOR 80% OF THE GAME UNTIL SHE YELLED AT ME SAYING SHE WAS SORRY SHE WASN'T MY ACTUAL DAUGHTER IS GOING TO DIE TO SAVE THE WORLD SO MORE PEOPLE DON'T DIE FROM BEING SHOT BY THE ARMY ABLOO BLOO BLOO

Gas parents and their fuck trophies. Unironically.

>>718142641
>The fireflies were shown as incompetent
>Gets killed by the US Army for daring to oppose them rationing shit to the point that people are starving and better off outside the walls
>This is somehow "stupid and incompetent"
Say what you want about Marlene (and rightly so) but her resistance force wasn't in the wrong.

>>718142976
>Chaser
You know that's a boy now, right?

>>718155090
10 years ago was 2015. "Girl gamurrz xD" were very much a thing back then, retard.

>>718143506
Dangerously BASED post.

Don't forget (((Next Guy))) is a Zionist to boot.

>>718155757
You will never be a woman.

>>718144586
>If you only know how badly the series goes.jpg

>>718148626
No it isn't lmao

>>718155757
>nooo we need to save the le world for the le greater good but also pipo shouldnt breed and all breeders must die
least schizophrenic antinataloid

>>718156043
not as much as today, and even so, girls don't like ZOMBIE SURVIVAL SHOOTER HORRORS nigga

The original is suppose to be vague on whether or not they can save the world through her sacrifice. You weren't suppose to know for certain if they can actually succeed or not. But the core of the issue is that Joel didn't even bother with the chance of success and choose to save one girl over any possibility (however slim it may be) of saving everyone else. The people going 'they wouldn't have succeeded so he was right' are the ones missing the point.

>>718154902
Joel has a daughter at the start of the game but she dies after a FEDRA soldier shoots her. She was roughly the same age Ellie is during the first game.

Read this post >>718147778. It's not ambiguous at all, the original plot was the "RESISTANCE" group had a 1%-10% chance of finding a cure by cutting into Ellie's brain. They have done this before and they've done it on animals too. They're not depicted as evil, but desperate with very loose ethical codes on science.

I don't know what the cuck TV show and Last of Us 1 Remake/Remaster do, but the PS3 original TLOUS was very clear the Fireflies had near 0% chances of finding a cure by killing a child and that Joel's decision while selfish, brutal, and generally evil is up to the player decide who was the greater evil between the two.

>>718143432
Lisa?

>>718152185
this guy gets it. not all storytelling is like star wars, good guy vs bad guy. joel starts off as an objectively good guy, working and taking care of his daughter. his daughter is taken from him by a very unfair chain of events. this starts a chain of events that turns joel into a cold and ruthless survivor, someone who will do whatever it takes to protect what he has left. by the time he meets ellie, that hard shell starts to crack but his decision at the end is exactly in line with who he’s become.

it’s not about being purely good or evil, it’s about his humanity, and how his love for ellie outweighs the "greater good" from his perspective, and as active participants in the story we relate with him and understand why he did it. we’re not watching from the outside like some detached moral judge, we’ve been with him the whole journey, felt the same losses, and made the same calls in our heads. that’s why the "joel is evil" take is so shallow, it ignores the entire emotional context of the game.

>>718157291
It didn't matter at all, anon. It could have been 100% success and Joel would have still killed them all to save her. That's the thing that people are refusing to acknowledge. Joel never gave a fuck about everyone else, only his daughter mattered. Even disregarding that, 1-10% chance of success is still better than 0%.

>>718147923
> But yeah, they knocked him out, stole his shit and let him out to die in front of their base.

Even if Ellie did not exist and Joel had just spent the game transporting a Macguffin or something, this alone would have given him justification to kill the Fireflies in retaliation and claim appropriate compensation from their supplies. Add an actual human life into the equation and it's a no-brainer.

>>718156894
Ironically you're missing the point too.

>>718147778
>When you play Joal through the area leading up to saving Ellie (in the original PS3 version, not the versions that came later that they altered) you find a series of recording informing Joel that they'd done this before, and it's failed every single time before. They figure Ellie will die and that they won't get anything out of it like every time before but they're willing to try again for a sub-1% chance it will work this time. She's not even the first person they'd cut up and killed.
>
>Then you get to the room and the guy from the Last of Us Part 2 isn't even there (a white guy, abbey's father) because in the original version the guy about to cut into Ellie that Joel shoots is a black dude.
Citation needed.

>>718156894
I mean from the onset it doesn't really matter if it'd succeed or not. If it was a full on cure maybe but this was just a vaccine and again there was the whole resources and distribution problem

>>718157575
The point is that it's the stupid trolley problem all over again. Would you sacrifice 1 person (your daughter) to save a bunch of strangers? Trying to add thing like % of success or end of the world shit is just a distraction from the core question at hand.

>>718157435
ofc i get it, i played the game

>>718157923
>Trying to add thing like % of success or end of the world shit is just a distraction from the core question at hand.
No it isn't.

Nothing in he game supports the idea that the Fireflies have any idea what they're even doing. Nothing in the game supports the idea that just cutting Ellie - the only known immune at this point - open and poking around in her brain is going to lead to anything substantial. Nothing supports the idea that even IF the Fireflies somehow, against all odds, and despite their plan being objectively and completely retarded on its face, manage to extract some miracle cure from Ellie, they even have the know-how, the means, and the infrastructure to translate that into anything substantial. And that's not even touching the Fireflies being clearly not the kind of people you want to handle this sort of responsibility - they're incompetent, treacherous, and little better than the force they're opposing.

Joel slaughtering his way to the operating table was the objectively correct and moral decision. Ellie being alive, and potentially available for a medical professional who actually knows what he's doing and whose first plan isn't to saw open her skull for funsies, is a net gain for the concept of translating her individual immunity to some sort of general solution.

Cuckman wanted it to be all grey and ambiguous, but he failed so completely at presenting the conflict as, well, a conflict, and at presenting his savior noble rebel faction as anything more than complete retards who didn't really have a plan to begin with, that he needed a sequel, several remakes, and who knows how many interviews and articles after the fact to gaslight people into thinking Joel was a super grey antihero.

>>718158059
Yes it is. If it was 100%, do you think Joel would have done something differently? No, he would have killed them all to save her regardless. If given the same situation, he would have done the same thing again.

>>718141949 (OP)
They definitely did not try and make Joel the bad guy, the game puts so much energy and time into making you understand Joel’s choice and even ends the second game with Joel saying he’d do it all over again. It is annoying I have seen so many people interpret it this way, it’s like they played a different game than I did the whole prologue purpose is to give additional context for what makes Joel’s character tick. Neil Cuckmann even says he would do the same as Joel for his kids so what more do anons need before they think they’re allowed to be on Team Joel.

>>718158112
Fireflies are just gonna horde the vaccine if they made one and use it to expand their power to hurt more people in the long run or force others to join them as they raid other safe communities.

>>718144842
Next time just post "I'm a huge faggot" instead that wall of text.

>>718158285
Yeah that's cool, but would (you) have a different opinion of joel then?

>>718158623
No, because it's perfectly human thing to prioritize your loved ones over strangers. If there's a trolley that was either going to kill a family member or a billion people, I would pick to kill the billion people. If you can live with the guilt, then damn the entire world for all I care.

>>718141949 (OP)
I was surprised to find out so many people liked Joel and thought he was in the right after finishing Last of Us Part 1.
I always thought Joel was a depressed, mentally unstable man who couldn't get over his daughter's death and saw Ellie as his surrogate daughter.

Joel didn't do what he did out of "moral" reasons, he did it out of selfishness and wanted a daughter.

Before you call me a leftie or duckmann shill, I am neither and in fact I am actually the opposite. I'll heil Hitler if you want.

>>718143432
Sounds like Lisa. Only shit

>>718159287
literally nobody said that Joel made the "moral" choice. When people say 'Joel did nothing wrong' or 'he did the right thing' they're talking from an empathetic standpoint, because they can understand somebody throwing away a shot at a cure to save somebody that they care about, especially if that person is a kid

anyone remember ever playing the multiplayer for the first game? maybe there's a reason i've seen actually zero mention of it in threads like these but crafting in-game and using the listen thing to see where players were pretty cool, and maybe some of the perks. it's pretty hazy.

>>718157039
i see, it's that mental condition where someone dies and your brain tries to make someone else into them. some sort of coping mechanism for despair. I saw it in an anime once but I didn't know it's real.
kinda fucked up, but i guess it's better than melting down and getting killed, and it's not like she's getting hurt because of it. bro needs to sort out his headspace but i guess that can wait until he's not literally about to get murdered, i'll take having a little bit of mental problems over dying from mental breakdown any day.

to be frank, i wasn't really expecting this. a lot of guys make it out like it's an endearing relationship. meanwhile it's... some sort of manic episode as a survival mechanism.

>>718159836
How would you feel if you were in a zombie apocalypse and you found out there was a potential cure and you and your loved ones could have been saved but a depressed fuck couldn't get over his daughter's death so nobody took a shot at the potential cure?

>>718142114
if they'd asked for ellie's permission and she'd said yes i'd have agreed with you, but they didn't so they're in the wrong

>>718141949 (OP)
YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND! IF ELLIE WAS CONSCIOUS, SHE WOULD TOTALLY CONSENT TO THE EVIL SCIENTISTS CUTTING HER OPEN AND EATING HER BRAINS! JOEL IS LITERALLY GIGA HITLER FOR STOPPING IT!

>>718160530
she can't consent. too young

>>718160389
I would gather a bunch of like-minded people to ambush him and make him feel the pain he made us felt when he decided to save his loved one over ours before killing him.

>>718160389
That depends, is it an actual cure that can get rid of the zombies entirely or is it a "cure" that will only stop you from immediately turning into a zombie if you get bit?

>>718152787
This and when they saw a guy who was trying to save a little girl after being drowned their first action was to knock him out instead of offering help or just staying vigilant means you have no way to trust them to actually have good will in their vaccine production.
And like fuck, their leader didn't even promise that his community would be the first group to get the vaccine batch as soon as they completed it when he did what she failed to.
So if Joey did nothing the most likely outcome is that they pointed a gun at him to walk him out then shot him because they wanted no one to know that there's an immune subject in their custody.

>>718159287
So what's the right thing Joey's supposed to do?

>>718157615

It's not even subtle anon.

>>718157543
Ah ah ah, nope, this is dumb. It doesn't matter what he would have done. All that matters is what he did, and he didn't do what they're saying, he killed people that were going to butcher a girl for a tiny hope. It wasn't even the first time and they'd failed the other times. Ellie wasn't unique.

It also turned out Ellie just had a lazy strain. She wasn't actually immune. It wasn't even going lead to a cure in the first place because nothing they needed to be there was there in the first place.

So they had to change it for the Last of Us Part 2 to make it so Joel seemed at fault. They even changed every version of the Last of Us beyond the PS3 version with patched or at a base as further releases occurred.

You don't have to change what happened, what Joel did, if he actually did the thing in the first place.

We don't function on what someone might have done. We only function on what they actually did. Joel being the bad guy is completely manufactured for the Last of Us Part 2. The guy Joel killed in the original isn't even the same guy he supposedly killed in Part 2.

It's fucking stupid.

>>718141949 (OP)
I get the moral quandary. But fireflies constantly being shown to be as competent as Weil E. Coyote makes that argument fall apart like wet tissue paper.

>>718164303
He should have let them cut her up.

Everyone here acts like it's a binary discussion where either Fİreflies succeed in finding a cure or not but scientific progress isn't binary.

Even if Fireflies failed in making a cure at the moment, t could have still learned something valuable in the process that could be useful in finding a cure later.

>>718164849
>being shown to be as competent as Weil E.
wat
>Coyote makes that argument fall apart
wat????

>>718164403
If that guy is black then so is Joel you dumbass

>>718164961
>already killed people with no results
>released a bunch of contagious monkeys into the wild
>every base you visit has them massacred or is is abandoned
>their "freedom fighting" involves mostly terrorism that makes life worse for the people stuck in the police state "thanks for blowing up our food and medicine, dipshits"
>nearly killed Ellie before they even knew who she was, which would have ruined their plan
They are shown to be ridiculously incompetent through the entire game.

>>718165372
what the fuck are you talking about schizo?

>>718165435
Trolling used to be an art.

It's not "they, " it was Neil Druckmann the whole time that pushed for it, he pushed Bruce Straley out (who was by far and large his senior at Naughty Dog) as well as others that didn't conform to his ideas.

So the real reason this game and RDR2 still get huge discussion threads is because deep down everyone knows they are actually good games with good stories right? And everything else is just copium.

>>718141949 (OP)
I still think what he did was retarded, ONE life to save all of earth just makes sense, They live in a hellscape and should be trying everything they can to fix things

>>718141949 (OP)
Never going to buy it, never going to play it. I already know Joel did nothing wrong and I refuse to hear otherwise. I wish Abby's faggot, Jewish farher could be brought back to life so I could shoot him in the face again.

>>718164956
They didn't learn anything valuable from the prior people they cut up. The recording outright says they've failed repeatedly. They didn't get anything any of those times except a certainty Ellie wouldn't survive. They didn't even sound hopeful they'd learn something in the recordings. They were just like, "If we keep finding ones like her and cutting them up maybe one day we'll get lucky." These people weren't top of the top. They were what was left and clearly in over their head.

>>718165976
RDR2 is a good game but not this. this is shilled to hell and back by resetera or some insurgent discord of cuckmann supporters, or maybe it's just a sharty psyop who knows. either way it's not good just because it's constantly discussed.

>>718166017
Yeah but you are not him, to him Ellie is more important than anything on the planet at that time. Kinda crazy that people fail to see that and instead go with "Well this is what I'D do !" nobody cares what you'd do kek you ain't Joel.

>>718165143
Get with it moron. Back when TLOUP2 drama was in full swing some autist looked at the model. He's a nappy haired black dude. Stop trying to pretend this wasn't settled within a month of the initial controversy.

>>718166139
you didn't play it
>>718166201
doesn't matter, that version of the game is no longer canon

>>718166017
>he thinks the fucking fireflies can cure the plague
Confirmed for not paying a single second's worth of attention to anything happening in the tLoU1 whatsoever.

>>718166248
I have not played part 2, but I have played the first game and I know that people shilled it hard despite it being a 6/10 at best.

Kino https://youtu.be/SK2_iCfKxTY

>>718166248
Only proving that Joel never did the thing TLOU2 is about in the first place. Literally had to George Lucas that shit. Han Shot First and Joel killed a bunch of child butchers with no hope of succeeding.

>>718166361
Yeah, TLoU1 was way overrated. TLoU2 just completely exposed how much of a hack Neil is. The signs where there from the start, but the cheap emotional manipulation from the first game worked on normies.

>>718166361
>I have not played part 2, but
my honest reaction

>>718166484
Niel wasn't the sole writer on part 1. Amy was still involved. It's pretty obvious that niel wasn't allowed to go full niel in part 1.

>>718166448
they could of at least tried to make it funny

>>718164956
ah yes to make the vaccine they just jump straight to killing her, no tests or nothing, one hour upon her arrival she's on the table ready to get her brain removed, mate they didn't even have time to wash their hands before she was ready to die. very believable

>>718141949 (OP)
No third game and no third season of the HBO show. Finally can wipe TLoU of my Plex server

>>718143090
No he didn't. She was unconscious.
If the Fireflies had waited for her to wake up and allowed her to decide, then one could condemn Joel's actions. But they didn't wait. They attempted to vivisect her without her consent. Joel stopped them. He did the right thing.

It's fucking stunning to me how many people, including the devs themselves, don't understand that it's a basic issue of consent. Ellie could not consent to the procedure while unconscious.

No one would kill the ONLY immune subject to find for a cure, btw. Biopsy exist.
Fireflies were always idiots and the writing sucks.

>>718141949 (OP)
>ignore all the shit in the game implying Ellie would have died for nothing chud, you were supposed to hate Joel!!!

>>718166538
>Shitt PC graphics
Very disgusting clip, post Playstation webms next time.

>>718166960
i don't have a PS

Ellie, did I ever tell you the story of the Firelies?
No, I thought not, it's not a story Cuckman would tell you.
The Fireflies bomb these mostly civilian quarantine zones and it is a common occurrence, nobody likes them
You can walk around and see a bunch of unhinged firefly graffiti saying NO FUTURE, DIE FUCKING PIG, BURN IT ALL DOWN
Then they bomb a supply truck that was taking essential supplies to a civilian zone and start gunning anyone they see, including civilians
I actually got shot by a firefly myself
Marlene said she was just defending herself by bombing and gunning civilians, I believe her
Did I mention the Fireflies got ran out of Pittsburgh by the local population because everyone hates them?
Must've slipped my mind
Then they knock me out while I'm trying to resuscitate you
Did I mention the same doctor who was SURE that vivisecting you would lead to a cure wrote he has no idea why your immunity is the way it is and that he can't replicate it in a lab?
He said so himself in notes
Then I wake up an hour later and apparently they did all those tests on you within an hour
They antagonize me, put guns to my head
Then they walk me past my equipment which makes me realize they're gonna kill me
I kill some of them and now there are no more fireflies except for a group composed of mostly non-binary teens
but i'm sure they would've made the vaccine in that ratty hospital
Humanity would've been saved if not for me stopping you from getting killed and stopping them from executing me in cold blood
And they were good friends

>>718142475
>>718142641
>>718143347
>>718148751
>>718160530
You guys didn't understand the story.
It doesn't matter if the vaccine would work or not, the whole point is that Joel's connection to her is so strong that he is willing to sacrifice the whole world to save her.

That's the entire beauty of it.

>>718141949 (OP)
>kill hundreds of people
>to save one girl who isn't even your daughter
>who could instead potentially CURE HUMANITY out of an APOCALYPSE
Yeah, he's the fucking bad guy duh

>>718166956
remember, the game was written by the same people who believed Doctor Anthony Fauci literally was the settled science
it was meant to test your loyalty to the Science Gods, and if you thought Joel was the good guy, then you failed their test completely

>firefly walks joel at gun point past his backpack and guns obviously meaning they were about to execute him
>joel is supposed to be the bad guy for not letting them execute him

Uh huh

>>718167082
that's a long essay for someone who never played the game homie, hope you copied that not typed it...yikes

>>718167315
It's irrelevant if he's the bad guy or not faggot.

>>718167484
It is relevant when Neil tries to retcon shit in TLOU2.

>>718167580
There is no such thing as TLOU2, there was one game that told an interesting story.

>>718142114
>yes this group of incompetent terrorists in this run down hospital will definitely be able to produce a cure
>here you go mr. veterinarian I’m sure you’ll will run plenty of tests and not just try to cut her open, i’ll go see marlene to get my payment

>play TLOU2
>dislike abby and think the whole game, no matter how good the gameplay, is complete shit
>watch TLOU
>dislike ellie and joel
>think abby is right

Simple as.

>>718167464
Hell of a cope that you keep saying over and over again.

>>718167812
sex with show abby, that is all.

Joel LITERALLY says he murdered people for supplies like it's nothing.

>>718167915
Pretty typical post apocalypse story if the characters are written well and honestly. Any tree huggers would be dead.

>>718141949 (OP)
>it's heroic to mow down people trying to save humanity because muh feelings actually
based

>>718167464
don't tell me you actually played this slop
cringe

>i need to remove her entire brain
>biopsy? no, that wouldnt work for reasons
>our group of 40 people would go around yelling HEY PEOPLE IN FEMA'S SAFETY ZONES WE GOT A VACCINE COME OUT TRUST US LET US INJECT YOU WITH A MYSTERY JUICE after repeatedly bombing FEMA safety zones in the past
>FEMA would NEVER EVER hunt us down
>how would that solve the supply issues, infrastructure and the existence of infected which is how 99% people die? uhh it just would

so why was their first idea to cut open the person with immunity? Even ignoring all the dumb and shady shit the fireflies had done up to that point, that just isn't very smart nor scientific. The setup really ruins any kind of moral quandary that could be had which is why I guess part 2 tried to retcon it

>>718168096
>mowed down innocents
they butchered children infected with a lazy strain instead of doing tests or biopsies
it hadnt worked once
they get ellie
and theyre like
shes gonna die and its not gonna get us a cure
but lets do it anyways

play the ps3 version

all the other versions were changed to make the fireflies look less stupid and to make joel look like the bad guy instead of like a guy that came across their psycho recordings and killed their psycho asses and saved ellie

I think the main issue is these games are both morally gray start to finish and deal with some heavy mature themes. And /v/ on the other hand is mostly filled with manchildren who only think about: jews, indians and cuck fantasies. Mix the two together and of course you will get pointless arguments that go nowhere. Very few people here will be able to appreciate the story. You also have people like this >>718168149 who brag about not playing it but are always in the threads "arguing" as if they did. So all you have is:
>/v/ as a whole who mostly didn't play the game and hate it blindly because of memes and seeing some of the controversial moments on youtube
>a few who played it and liked it
>a few who played it and didn't like it

>>718168096
well they were, like, terrorists?
and they'd probably only give the vaccines to the people they liked, so they're not like, saving humanity. and they wouldn't even be able to give anyone the vaccine anyway, because like logistics

>>718168324
They also removed the unhinged graffiti which further showed fireflies were insane.

>>718168305
if you asked cuckmann he'd tell you
>shut up and turn your brain off stupid goy
because the writing is deliberately ambiguous so you can't put the pieces together yourself and get a grasp on anything. you're supposed to ponder the moral implications without being autistic and focusing on the impracticality of it all.

>>718168406
Well, except for one graffiti.
Convenient, eh?

>>718168406
>>718168468
I am pretty sure Owen comments in a flashback in part 2 that the fireflies were cult-like, like the Scars. These "gotcha" posts are so fucking cringe

>>718141949 (OP)
>writer wants to make a morally grey ending with nuance
>accidentally turns it into a single-sided issue through mishandling certain elements
>attempts to course correct their vision with retcons and re-contextualizing
Many such cases.

>>718168406
The PS3 version looks better. I don't mean on a technical level, obviously the remake is technically better. The PS3 version just looks . . . colorful and vibrant. Things aren't all a constant slight variation of a single monotone. We have colorful greens and browns and reds with white and gray, Joel pops out from the environment, the entire thing just has more personality. Soccer ball, basketball, a couch, the remains of a wooden pallet, a football, it's just . . . it had so much more life to it.

>>718142114
Lisa did this better

>>718141949 (OP)
TLOU is IDF revenge fantasy.

>>718168305
I'd be okay with not questioning the scientific side of it if cuckmann didn't go out of his way to write the surgeon's note telling you what tests they did in the 2 hours Joel was unconscious.
I'd just assume "okay, they did all the tests" if there was no note. But there is a note talking about antigenic titers in both the serum and the cerebrospinal fluids, blood cultures, white cells percentages and absolute-counts, amount of n of pro-inflammatory cytokines, so questioning the science of it when the dev includes science talk actually makes sense.

>>718168712
Oh I get it the fireflies are literally Palestine. Fucking based.

>>718167812
they really fucked up casting that one guy as ellie and this girl as abby

>>718164724
1% chance of finding a cure to save billions of lives are far better odds than 0 when Joel killed everyone to save her. You're just trying to rationalize a reason to pick her over everyone else. That's literally it, do you pick her aka the daughter surrogate that you've come to know throughout the game or random masked strangers that you don't know or care about? Is one life worth taking the risk to save potentially billions of lives?

Like, there is no shame to admitting you would pick to save a single loved one over X numbers of strangers. Own up to your choice and stop trying to bullshit up a reason why you need to pick one over the other.

>>718142114

All these retards going "AKTHUALLY THE CURE WOULDN'T HAVE WORKED ANYWAYS" are so ridiculous. It's a fantasy setting with fucking fantasy zombies and bigot sandwiches. Anything can work.

People just want to think the "immoral and selfish" decision of Joel was AKTHUALLY THE GOOD ONE not understanding it's the classic trolley dilemma.

>>718169049
You'd let yourself get executed by the fireflies? Because they were going to execute joel

>>718143432
>If you like these types of stories (man has to take care of a young one/young girl) watch it, it's an indiekino.

It's funny how in the past men always wanted sons but nowadays they exclusively want daughters and always over some pedophilic fetish.

Amazing.

>>718141949 (OP)
>>718141949 (OP)
painting Joel or the fireflies as "bad" just means you didn't get it, it's the same with Verso and Alicia fags who sling shit against each other when both sides have merits and each player will have a different perspective or stand based on their personal morals.

>>718169118
Anon, what the fuck are you even going about now?

>>718142875
the sequel is a better game and is a masterpiece

>>718169379
Marlene's note saying fireflies wanted to execute Joel after he got the job done and >>718167315

>>718169049
You're right, we must be better men. If I was in Joel's position and the people that were supposed to pay me instead stole all my shit and left me for dead in the wilderness and took my surrogate daughter with the intent to rip out her brain without asking for her consent (not even getting into the argument whether she could give it as a minor), I would simply walk back out into the wilderness and try to survive, secure in the knowledge that I just saved the human race.

>>718169320
they were literally terrorists, anon.
you can't defend that.

>>718169497
wait a minute.
they didn't pay him?

>>718169320
First time we hear about them is during the opening credits, they're attacking safe camps.
Second time we hear about them is during the post opening walk and talk with Tess, they're attacking safe camps.
Third time we hear about them they're attacking a convoy with supplies for the safe camps and we get shot.

They're not good people.

>>718141949 (OP)
>play the game
>both Sarah and Ellie models are dressed the entire time and they're not whores
I don't get it why would the internet do this?

If i wanted to play this is it possible to emulate the PS3 version instead of pirating the remaster?

>>718169049
Why do you have to have the drama with the Fireflies at all then? Just present the philosophical dilemma straight up. Oh wait, they don't because it's not supposed to be a yes or no. The problem is people just see the side they believe in, though no doubt one side is more substantiated than the other by necessity.

Reminder that during the opening credits the fireflies are attacking quarantine safe zones because "muh democracy" in a fucking zombie apocalypse, lmao.

>>718169509
and Joel is a murderer with a very horrendous past as a hunter.
the fireflies might be labeled as "terrorists" whatever that word means in tlou world when there is no government, but they have a noble goal that in a utilitarian lens does the "most good" though their means are likely very suspect.

>>718169581
Why pay a dead man? They were sending Joel out into the wild with no weapons or supplies. Obviously they wouldn't have the weapons/supplies there, but there's no way they had any intent to send them at that point.

>>718169914
>utilitarian is morally bankrupt

>>718169981
Extreme utilitarian arguments tend to be.

>>718169450
You mean the one where Marlene had also convinced the fireflies to not do that since she was convinced Joel would deliver Ellie to them and understand the meaning of sacrifice?

>>718169914
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

>>718169116
you're a fucking retard. The whole moral dilemma hinges on fireflies' capabilities who up to that point have been consistently shown to be violent, shady, retards. How could you NOT question them in this totally mature story for mature people? This is before you even get to what they were actually about to do and the potential effectiveness of it

>>718142114
I'm just coming in to say that the moral calculus is clearly on Joel's side from everything I know about this story.
Thinking hes evil is a clear signal of utopian midwittery.

>>718169979
No, they were to escort him out of the hospital, not into the wild. There was no way they can let him stay inside when they are going to experiment on her.

>>718170134
I agree. The writer intention was to have it more balanced, as you can tell by his reaction to the reaction and the sequel. If you take the game at face value though, rather than generously steelman it, the Fireflies are breaking all sorts of ethics with their behavior and withholding of information.

>>718170032
>convinced
What are you talking about? Headcanon?
The note says:
>They asked me to kill the smuggler. I'm not about to kill the one man in this facility that might understand the weight of this choice. Maybe he can forgive me.

Then when Joel wakes up and he starts questioning them, she tells the firefly guard to shoot him if he tries anything and the guard escorts him past his equipment.
Keep in mind that we are shown Joel noticing the guard escorting him past his equipment, THAT is when Joel acts, when he realizes what was going on.

>>718169581
They jumped him when he and ellie got near the firefly base. They knocked him out and left him for dead. Took Ellie. Knocked her out. They never talked to her. They just rendered her unconscious right away and were going to cut her up without ever even speaking to her. Didn't even do tests (I know they added in a note in the new versions with a list of tests, but another anon points out the 2 hours they had ellie was actually enough time to do all those tests let alone gets results from some of them).

When Joel wakes up he enters the facility and finds recordings of them repeatedly failing. He also finds out the people that actually knew what they were doing are already dead in one of the recordings which is the actual why their results from cutting up people with the lazy strain haven't been getting results. Basically, the only people that knew what they were doing are dead. They've failed repeatedly before Ellie. One of the recordings tells you that they don't even think they'll succeed this time and it hints that there have been internal arguments about continuing.

>>718170159
>No, they were to escort him out of the hospital, not into the wild.
Without his supplies. I reiterate, they were going to march him right past his pack. It'd be one thing to disarm him/remove any weapons from his bags first, but they were leaving him with jack shit.

>>718169757
Because it was suppose to be a 'will it actually work' type of question. 0% or 100% of success would just make it into another automatic right or wrong choice here but a small chance of success is the real test. Would you sacrifice someone for a chance at saving everyone? Is even 1% of success worth taking the risk?

>>718169116
The trolley problem solution is also to let more people die rather than killing one person to save them.

>>718170043
that argument applies to both Joel and the fireflies too. in the end it's just a matter of perspective and personal resonance on what you hold important, and what sort of moral compass you have.

>>718170308
Right. The uncertainty of the result is important. It's not just would you sacrifice one life to save many. It's would you sacrifice one life to have a chance of saving many. At least, that's the ideal version of the dilemma here, however one might feel about how the game presents it, that's what the writer wanted it to be.

>>718170283
Anon...
>I'm not about to kill the one man
If they wanted to kill him, they would have shot him immediately instead of escorting him out. They weren't going to let him get access to his weapons at that critical junction because he can and will kill them because he wasn't going to let them sacrifice her.

>>718170032
They literally ambush Joel fuck him up and take Ellie without paying him. They leave him out in the zombie infested wilderness to die.

That's not exactly the same as "not killing him" when you leave an unconscious dude to get fucked by zombies. They had no way of knowing Joel would recover and survive. Marlene's intentions don't mean dick. The only thing that matters is what actually happened. Same with Joel. It doesn't matter what Joel would have done. It only matters what he did. And because Neil is a hack we have two entirely different versions of what he did. One you can justify and the other you can't. The original was the one you could justify and Neil didn't want that.

One of the problems with this discussion is people have played entirely different versions of TLOU. PS3 version, in between version, and their last version. There are progressively more changes, especially to the ending, with each iteration.

I guarantee most people siding with Joel played the PS3 version. "Most" is not all.

>>718167076
Mods are for incels

>>718169683
oh I didn't say they are "good". read my comment again.
painting people or groups in tlou as purely good or bad in tlou, just doesn't work for me - they are layered and far from simple.
For the record I resonate with Joel's position - taking care of your loved ones trumps even what some people might argue is the "greater good". I'm a verso fag too.

>>718170538
Do you really think this man is going to react that way? Come the fuck on.

>>718170503
The writer's intent doesn't matter if the game doesn't convey it that way. The game saying one thing and the writers saying another just means the game is right. If the writers were right their idea would have been properly conveyed in the game.

>>718170772
Dats rite, no normies allowed.

>>718170538
That recorder was recorded while Joel was passed out.
After he woke up and wanted to see Ellie, she said this.
Then they walked him past his equipment. No supplies, no rations, no guns, no meds, just Joel with nothing but his clothes on.

Why would they execute him in a hospital bedroom that they can use instead of outside, anon? They can just dump his body outside instead of cleaning the whole room if they make him walk outside.

Anyone who thinks a bunch of retards like the Fireflies, who apparently didn't know what a biopsy is, had even a .001% chance of developing a cure is too retarded to be allowed on the internet.

Morever Joel was morally correct simply by virtue of being stronger and killing all of them. Might makes right.

>>718142114
In the original, the facility that they want to do the surgery in looked super sketchy, and I wouldn't trust them with my daughter even if it could cure humanity.
They made it look better in the remake because Druckmann didn't like that people agreed with Joel's decision and decided to make his actions seem more selfish.

>>718168712
Druckman is an adopted californicuck leftoid so he's probably "two state solution" like 99% of Europeans. Only USAlarders right wingers are 100% backing Israel whatever they do.

>>718170824
The game is what presents you both sides of the issue, though it doesn't give you a choice in the matter. It establishes the Fireflies side through Marlene. You establish the counterargument through inductive reasoning from the story and some notes in their base. I'm with Joel but I'm not going to say for sure the Fireflies couldn't have managed to cure it with their methods, it sure didn't look like it to me though.

>>718170804
Anon, if they wanted him dead, they would have killed him in the first place when he was still unconscious in the bed.

The fireflies broke the NAP and deserved to be holocausted

>>718170897
And they couldn't have executed him while he was unconscious? Why bother waiting for him to wake up, explain everything and then kill him? That's even more retarded.

>>718142560
Because the first vaccine was for smallpox, and done by exposing people to cowpox.
I don't think you can do that with fungi.

>>718171038
Their recordings are full of doubt, failure, and realization that the people that knew what they were doing are dead.

the real question is...why'd she do it?

>>718171139
This

>>718170678
such a shit decision and why ill never play the sequel, originally they made joel a monster on the surface by killing the fireflies and preventing the cure but really the fireflies were the true monsters, throughout the game you see how incompetent they are with the herpes monkeys and the fact that most of their numbers have been killed or taken over. They could've saved humanity but at a cost killing the only person that could lead for a cure. They made it grey sided instead of JOEL IS DA MONSTER HE SHOULDN'T HAVE KILLED DEM FIREFLIES WERE THE GOODGUYS bullshit I fucking hate that jew kike that took complete control over and the tv show holy shit

>>718141949 (OP)
He was, objectively speaking, a bad person in the first game. You're hatred for Abby is still amusing multiple years later. I guess keep crying about it.

>>718141949 (OP)
Joel allowing Ellie to waste her new immunity genes into becoming a shitty lesbian is why I hate Joel, Ellie, and the staff at Naughty Dog. Civilization is dead and magically they respect a shitty woman's right to be a worthless dyke despite good genetics for immunity? Last of Us is shit. Ellie would be a rape slave for a warlord and Joel would be killed by that warlord for interfering.

>>718171350
It was funny seeing Cascina (Dina's face) side with Abby at the end.

>>718171145
Because of his reaction to Marlene saying "yeah, we're gonna have to kill Ellie", retard. Marlene herself didn't want to execute Joel, as the note says, because he thought he'd side with her but she didn't give a shit once he had a negative reaction.

>>718143637
So that's what happens to the Fireflies when they don't kill the creatures they're experimenting on. No wonder they wanted to vivisect Ellie.

>>718171350
>abby
abby hallucinated Joel killing her dad who looks nothing like the person Joel actually killed

she literally went after a dude that killed someone else instead of her dad
her dad probably abandoned her
everything we see about abby and her dad is most likely a delusion as joels original perspective shows us that he didnt kill her dad as the surgeon he kills looks nothing like her dad


therefor abby is a psychopath that runs off to gold club a dude who didnt kill her dad

>>718170285
>not only did he not get paid, but they betrayed him and tried to kill him.
yet he still has uncertainties?
on god, they hired this ridiculous war machine of a mercenary to kill hundreds of people and didn't pay him: if he killed them all just for that it would not be unexpected. but then they also tried to kill the guy?
don't tell me they get away unscathed, you'd have to be a complete bike cuck to let someone go after that.

>>718171625
fanfiction garbage

>>718143432
Sounds a bit like A Boy and his Dog, except for the last woman being his daughter.

>>718171461
Then why are we even bringing up the recording in the first place if they no longer planned on killing him? If they really were as unethical as people are claiming they are, they would have killed him regardless they think he would side with them or not.

It will never stop being funny to me that the Jew was shocked and appalled that people thought murdering a white child for the sake of hilariously nonsensical medical quackery was the wrong thing to do.

What forsaking Christ does to a mf I guess.

>>718144052
>s-stay back!
That's not attacking

>>718171698
I played TLOU
dude we kill looks nothing like abbys dad

>>718171681
From a player perspective you can stealth through the firefly base. The only required kills are the ones the game forces on you. But, you can choose to massacre every firefly you come across. I certainly did after they fucked me like that.

>>718171221
>"I'm very angry and upset...we need to swim that part anyway"
Imagine how mad she will be when she sneak in (You) bed later that night.

>>718171741
>It will never stop being funny to me that the Jew

Jews still own the Earth so shut up slave. Jews will use ai and robots and tech to keep you under control. Jews won, you gentile loser.

>>718141949 (OP)
Joel was a murderer, rapist, and its likely given his penchant for eluding reality and consequences of his actions, that he killed his daughter and the whole prologue sequence in TLOU1 is a fantasy.

>>718172115
>heres some shit I made up
Thanks man.

>>718171731
Because Marlene had probably thought Joel would agree with her because he was reasonable with the Robert situation where he sold the guns that Tess had already paid for to the Fireflies.
That's why the note says that MAYBE he can understand.
And if a guy is willing to do all that AND understand her side, he'd be a really valuable asset to the Fireflies, who were low in number and sure as hell were low in competent trustworthy people.
He was reasonable and non-aggressive there when he agreed to smuggle Ellie to the other side of the country and about the Roberts situation.

The Pittsburgh chapter pretty much shows you that the fireflies are hated even among normal non-FEDRA survivors.

>>718172290
And the moment he didn't understand, they didn't immediately shoot him, they escorted him out. Again, if they really were as evil as people claim they are, Joel wouldn't have lived the moment Marlene realized he was a threat. They had every opportunity to kill him but didn't. Even the whole 'they didn't want to damage the equipment inside' didn't make sense since the original hospital looked like a dump so killing him inside wouldn't matter.

>>718171923
it's convenient in a way. there's all these guys going on about the trolley problem but those guys tried to kill you and they took your money.

there's no trolley problem if they tried to kill you.

>>718172824
Joel shot first though.

>>718171413
Cute big tatas Italian Dina.

>>718142831
>completely missed ellie's survivor's guilt
the whole fucking deal is that she wants to die if it'll make a cure because it will give meaning to all of the deaths that were caused by her, in the end she has to accept that she doesn't need to somehow make those deaths worth it, and just being alive is good enough

>>718172815
>they didn't immediately shoot him
Again, unnecessary blood and clean up.
If they weren't gonna kill him, why not give back his supplies? Sure, keep the guns, but why not give back his backpack? Why escort him past it?

>>718173051
>Hit first, hit twice
Cobra Kai smart guy

>>718141949 (OP)
>Be cunny enthusiast(straight white male)
>your cunny gets shot by mud soldier
>you can't fuck cunny anymore
>get new cunny
>rescue cunny from doctors, who want to fuck cunny too but don't want you(straight white male) to have or enjoy it at all
>game pretends you are the bad guy

>we don't know for sure what's the cause of her immunity
>but we know for sure we need to remove her brain within an hour of getting our hands on the only immune person we know
>trust me I'm a veterinarian

Druckmann is a god tier writer.

>>718173051
what exactly happened?

>>718173362
Because Joel was 100% going to start shit if he had all of his supplies. Again, if they wanted him dead, they would have shot him in the back. And why would they care about blood and clean up at that point? They might have just potentially found the cure, why risk escorting him out of the hospital before shooting him? Why go through all of these unnecessary motions? Even shooting him when he was still inside the patient's room would have been fine since, again, the whole place was a dump in the original. More blood wouldn't have mattered at that point.

>>718172115
>he's a rapist
explain why he doesn't rape anyone for the entire game

>>718157923
You moron. Adding % of success changes the equation from “ kill one person to save more strangers” to “kill one person for the chance to save more strangers”. Huge difference

>>718166926
I also make shit up

>>718173720
Why do think he had a daughter, idiot?

>>718141949 (OP)
Just got to the capitol building for the first time. I am going to say it. They way they did Tess in is disgusting and I hate it.

>>718173692
Joel was going to start shit if he had his food and meds? How?
So your point is that they weren't going to execute him, they would just escort him out with no food, no meds, no means to defend himself against infected, other survivors, hunger and injuries.

>why risk escorting him out of the hospital before shooting him?
The hospital was their last base of operation, basically their home at that point, and considering how long an actual vaccine takes, they'd stay there for a long while. Besides if we go by TLOU2 shit, they also had kids living there.
Why execute someone inside your home when you can just escort them out and THEN execute them?

>>718173987
>there are zero (0) daughters that have been born from consensual sex
Nice. Andrea Dworkin lives on.

>>718141949 (OP)
You're an idiot. Tlou2 isn't complicated at all and yet it still eludes so many retards here. It's fucking unreal.

I haven't played a single minute of this game but it's fun to watch retards here have a meltdown about the meaning of this jewish wokeslop

Oh my god, you're all idiots who didn't even bother to look up the scenes in question. Joel didn't have his guns in the original scene. Joel saw his bag of supplies and guns on the counter before choosing to stop. The lone guard poked his handgun into back to get him to move, before Joel did a maneuver that either caused the gun to discharge (or the guard wanted to shoot him) before taking said handgun and killed the guard with it. At this point, you can choose to believe they were going to kill Joel or they wanted him out of the hospital asap without his guns because he would 100% killed them all to save Ellie if he had them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TwdUn8WqOk

>>718173983
What the fuck are you talking about?
They were going to kill her without her consent.

Play the game, dumbass.

>>718141949 (OP)
>incels cry about capeshit and marvelslop
>someone writes more interesting grey area morality
>WTF JUST TELL ME IF HE'S GOOD OR BAD ALREADY AHHHHHHHH I'M GOING INSANE BLACK PANTHER MAN SAVE MEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Fireflies sending Joel out with no supplies is like if I took you to the most desolate part of the Sahara desert with just your clothes and said "hehe see? I'm not killing you, if you die out here it's a skill issue".

Abby segment > Ellie segment
It's the more kino segment. Simple as.

>>718142583
People were saying THESE characters were attractive? wtf

>>718174835
>more interesting grey area morality
it's not that interesting, because the question is just
>would you sacrifice someone important for the greater good
and the answer is most likely going to be "NO" for the vast majority of people. the game doesn't even explore the implications of the choice being made, and just drops it in the next game for
>revenge bad
which nobody asked for and basically it's trash writing senpai.

>>718141949 (OP)
from the thumbnail i thought he was in the half life 2 intro train station

>>718174989
>applies reductionism to grey areas
>says grey areas are meaningless
You get all of the media you deserve, consumerist slop that is laid out for autistic black and white manchildren.

>>718174026
Because they needed him out of the hospital asap. As long as Ellie is still alive inside and Joel was still there, he was going to kill everyone to save her.

>>718160530
Oh. So a child can consent to die for science, but can't consent to transition, you chud biggot?

>>718175284
They literally walked PAST his backpack. Did you even play the game?

>>718174841
As opposed to letting him get his bag of supplies and guns while still inside the hospital?

>>718175582
Because it had his guns inside, you moron. Why would you let him arm himself? Do you even understand what you're suggesting if they let him take his bag of molotovs, guns and knives?

>>718175243
I did not say that grey areas are meaningless nor am I being reductionist, what I said was that the implications of the choice introduced weren't adequately explored. the question by itself is only as interesting as one's willingness to explore it, and the game didn't do that. in fact, it forced your hand for a particular outcome, and then cuckmann all but told you what was right and wrong with the following game and his spitting on joel's corpse.

he's not smart and you're not as clever as you think you are.

I don't know why you guys are even arguing about this shit when the fireflies created the whole standoffish situation in the first place by being shady retards. All of that could have been avoided if they weren't snakes

>>718175637
You think Fireflies would escort him out, make him wait outside, then walk back in, get his backpack, remove the guns and give it him rather than just having removed the weapons in the hours he was unconscious?

>>718175770
>the question by itself is only as interesting as one's willingness to explore it
Why?

>>718142475
you have to understand that for the sake of the narrative, the vaccine WOULD work 100%. Otherwise, Joel sacrificing humanity for his daughter would have no meaning anymore
the whole point of the fucking scene is that IT WOULD WORK and he still chose to do what he did

>>718175841
Escort him out, wait until Ellie dies and Joel no longer have any reason to fight them, then give him his bag.

>>718174835
>grey area fans when people question the fireflies competence and question the grey area that comes with no one liking or trusting them, them having no supply lines, no means of distributing the vaccine, them being on their last legs, etc, thus making the "vaccine" meaningless to anyone except the 30 fireflies left which still wont solve the food issue, the cannibals, the hunters, the gangs, getting mauled to death by infected, etc

>>718175791
>fireflies created the whole standoffish situation in the first place by being shady retards
completely false

>>718175904
deep in the woods, a tree is felled, and not a soul is around. does it make a sound? you can answer the question, but the point is that it's a trivial and time wasting affair. a meaningless question.

>>718175971
>hey joel wait here for a few hours while our soldiers have rifles pointed at you, ok?
>ok, I'm back, uh, your surrogate daughter died in surgery yeah, but we're good, right?
>anyways NOW that you are angry you can have your guns back because you totally wont be mad at the news of us killing ellie

It is such a stupid idea and on par with Firefly incompetence that I think the Fireflies would actually do something like this.

>>718176283
That is not analogous at all to asking someone to consider morality. It also doesn't answer the question.

>>718176137
you really think the fireflies are going to starve to death if they make a working vaccine?
their problem won't be supply lines and distribution. it'll be what to do with all the people parking outside and willing to give them piles of money and supplies for a jab.

>>718155848
If God made me chose between the entire humanity and my family you fucks are dead

>>718176375
Joel only cares at that moment because he's projecting his dead daughter onto Ellie. Once he realizes the deed is done, he's not going to start shit, especially over a potential cure, for someone he's known for a short while. In the end, Ellie isn't his real daughter.

>>718176459
If ISIS said "we created a vaccine for cancer", would you fly out and get jabbed by them?
I don't think you understand that the Fireflies being terrorists is not a FEDRA propaganda thing. They got ran out by the local population of Pittsburgh because literally nobody likes them or how they run things.

>>718176403
yes it is. I didn't need cuckmann to tell me to ponder a question, I can do that on my own. he was supposed to present the question and explore its implications, if he thought it was something worth exploration. otherwise, why did he even ask the question in the first place? it's cheap emotional manipulation, is what it is.
>oh no here's this guy who lost his daughter
>he's tasked with taking this girl across the country against his better judgement
>he doesn't want to because it's a fool's errand but does it against his better judgement
>along the way she melts his heart and he learns to love again
>only the people to whom she's being delivered have dire plans for her that involve ending her life
>he can't bear to witness it, and goes apeshit for the sake of saving her
>not even for her own sake, but for the sake of having an object of attachment he can claim emotional succor from
>because he can't possibly bear to experience that sort of loss again
bravo kojima.

>>718176734
And yet they're the only ones that's trying to find a cure. Everyone else are being isolationist pricks or asshole warlord wannabes.

>>718176601
>he's not going to start shit, especially over a potential cure
LOL
LMAO even
Joel doesn't give two shits about the potential cure at that stage of the game and he is very much a vengeful guy

>>718176734
you assert absolutely ZERO people would fly out to get jabbed?

because as soon as one guy does it, and it works, your head will spin with how fast people stop caring about isis or flies or whatever

>>718143506
That question says more about you than the other poster. You look at a male protecting a girl, and your mind directly goes to sex.

>>718176886
And when Ellie's dead, he has no choice but to accept it. It was one thing if she was alive and needed saving but it's another when she's already dead for a greater cause.

>>718176775
>I can do that on my own
Why consume media at all if you can do everything on your own?

>>718177005
because you touch yourself at night. now who's being reductionist?

>>718177005
i wonder about this a lot, now that i can do a lot more on my own.

>>718176775
>he was supposed to present the question and explore its implications
Why?
>A character doing something can be considered both good and bad depending on perspective is cheap emotion manipulation
I don't get it. Are you on your meds?

>>718175791
Because casuals need to defend their movie games to the death. This is because if more people start to see them as hackneyed shit then they will be seen as retards for sucking them off so hard and claiming they are the BEST GAMES EVAR.

>>718177146
why not? are you on your meds?

>>718177170
people are debating the game's story though, it's a pretty serious thread unlike most TLOU threads. Only posts like yours derail it

>>718177071
You're reducing all media to needing to be spelled out, black and white behavior and you said that you can create though-provoking moments on your own. I'm just curious what you get out of media at all if it's such a chore to watch anything that isn't cape shit.

>>718177249
Because he didn't want to. You good, brother? Get fired from McDonalds today or somethin'?

>>718175718
>why let the guy who we are escorting into a hostile area arm himself
>doesn’t even grab it and say he will give it to him when they reach the area
They were going to kill him or leave him to die in the city (kill him) I don’t know why you retards have to pretend this shit isn’t happening.

>>718176850
>>718176959
The vaccine really has no point in TLOU and in no way it'd be ever proven to work.
Or how do you prove that the vaccine works? By getting someone to volunteer to get bitten and mauled by a clicker? And then transmit that fact how exactly?
And have people believe that it isn't a Firefly trick how exactly?
FEDRA zone people hate the fireflies because they're constantly bombing supply lines causing bad rationing.
Normal survivors hate the fireflies because they try to lord over them.
90% of people die because of gunshots or getting eaten alive anyway.

>>718177334
People aren’t debating the story, you have people pointing out shit and other people ignoring it because they can’t defend the events in the game and how they’re presented. Even from the Fireflies perspective they’re incompetent assholes that are just going to kill Ellie in desperation. And whenever that fact is brought up and scenes from the game are used to support it it’s always the same ear covered close eyes screaming or trying to lie and say it’s not happening. Like arguing with a child.

I almost equate the way TLOU2 completely shit all over TLOU1 to the way the Sequel to Joker shit on the first film.
It's like they saw how genuinely meaningful and heartfelt the story was in the first, saw how many people connected with it, and decided actively to shit on all those people in the sequel in every conceivable way they could.

>>718176991
>he has no choice but to accept it

Agreed. Just like when Joel was killed by the Fireflies, Ellie didn't go on a murderhobo revenge adventure, because she had no choice but to accept his death peacefully.
You smart good, anon.

>>718177341
I'm not reducing media to being black and white. the game could have stayed ambiguous for all I care. however, I'm saying that if cuckmann was going to present a question, and then all but tell you what was right or wrong, then it's dogshit. I don't care about his opinion on the matter. also the game is forcing you to do a particular thing - that is, namely, you're supposed to kill hordes of militiamen to save this girl from the operating table, and then take her away for yourself. this series of events is an answer to the question
>would you sacrifice a loved one for the greater good
and again I don't care about the choice so much as the implications from it. the devs chose for your to say NO to the question, and to what end?

a better game would have 1) let the player make the choice and 2) had consequences for that choice. but no, we're dealing with cuckmann tier writing. again, bravo.
>>718177418
pee pee poo poo

>>718177646
The reason that is is different from the Joker. Neil wanted to make 1 like 2. Only Tess would have to played the role of Abbey and her brother that doesn’t exist in the game would have been Jerry with all the bleak and miserable shit that came with it. However Neil was tard wrangled and told to change it for obvious reasons and we ended up with TLOU that we know. But in between 1 and 2 he took over and got rid of everyone that was in his way making 2 the way he wanted to make 1.

>>718177646
but the first game ends in a cliffhanger that makes you feel bad for Ellie and judge Joel's actions, it also feels very inconclusive

>>718177816
abloo abloo
why should anyone care what an autistic reductionist contrarian has to say?

>>718177816
>every video game has to be an RPG
yeah, no
take your meds already lmao

>>718177937
ok retard.

>>718177909
>but the first game ends in a cliffhanger that makes you feel bad for Ellie and judge Joel's actions
No it doesn’t, she asks Joel if he’s telling the truth and he gives the most blatant fucking lie anyone could give. Ellie would have had to been a literal retard to believe it especially given her whole arc where you play as her was about not blindly trusting people or taking what they say at face value. She knew he was lying and didn’t care. I mean there is so much shit that makes no fucking sense that anyone even a 13 year old would have picked up on and Ellie isn’t someone that just lets shit slide.

>>718177816
>ctrl+f cuckman
You good, homie? Did Bella Ramsay awaken a gay urge within you or something?

>>718175938
>for the narrative to work you have to pretend that a thing that is definitively untrue is actually true
Write a better fucking narrative.

>>718154780
I know they are.

>>718177571
>pffft who would be interested in a vaccine during a zombie apocalypse!
>there's no way to prove it to work!
>you wouldn't be able to tell anyone even if it did work
>so what, people want it and you can prove it works but uh we don't like those doctors, we got in a fight before so fuck the vaccine
holy cope.

>>718178068
It's extremely obvious she didn't buy it lol

>>718178058
>throwing a melty about some casual playstation movie because some dude made him think once
>calls others retards
lol

>>718178231
it's a game, actually, not a movie.

>>718178231
>retard thinks anyone is upset
no it's pretty amusing, your inability to provide a cohesive rebuttal. have a nice day, friend :)

>>718141949 (OP)
>Druckmann stated recently that the Fireflies would have been able to create a cure
THE WHOLE POINT OF THE ENDING'S DILEMMA WAS THAT THE SUCCESS RATE WAS AMBIGUOUS YOU FUCKING HACK

>>718159860
I remember it being fun. Seeing those brutal executions were a sight to see

>>718178230
bros..did i just have a crazy foreshadowing realization?

>>718178343
>capeshit enjoyer thinks of playstation movies as games
you don't say

>>718178402
Isn’t this from the remake they made after 2?

>>718178364
How do you rebut a melty in progress? You're mother is going to have to force feed you your meds for that. It is pretty amusing though ngl

>>718178371
why did you think there was a dilemma?
it's the story of a traumatized man confusing a stranger for his daughter

>>718141949 (OP)
In the Talmudic view, there is nothing wrong with using cattle for medical experiments, especially if the idea is to benefit the Jewish people. The Jewish writer of TLOU simply failed to realize that by villainizing Joel, he was elevating Josef Mengele. Incidentally, it is worth remembering that the story surrounding Josef Mengele is completely fictional. His cruel experiments make no sense from a medical or scientific point of view. They are pure invention by a people who like to project onto others the immoral ideas they absorb via the psychopathy of the Talmud.

>>718178371
People were doing wrongthink with his game so ambiguity was no longer okay.

>>718178478
yeah, idk if she does this pose in the older versions

>be joel
>fireflies wont give me the weapons we bought unless I smuggle a child to the capitol
>ok we go to meet the kid nearby
>fireflies lost to soldiers
>we arrive at the capitol with the kid
>fireflies are dead
>i reach another location
>more dead fireflies
>i reach another location
>more dead fireflies and one of his scientists got bitten by infected monkeys like a retard
>i finally reach the destination
>shady hospital, guns pointed at me, one hour of exams and they want some quack veterinarian to open ellie's skull

trustworthy people all the way through

>>718178410
i'll kill you if you dare call me a capeshit enjoyer you walking trashcan

>>718178364
He has nothing so he’s just going to spend the rest of the thread hurling logical fallacies.

>>718178228
The point is that nobody would be interested in a firefly mystery juice.
The vaccine doesn't benefit ANYONE except the fireflies.

>>718178583
This post violates United States law. Hopefully spider man will pick up when you call from jail.

>>718178581
Don’t forget how Marlene basically says “better she die here” instead of trying to say how the cure could work.

>>718178230
Yet they made the whole conflict between her and Joel that she found out he was lying after going back to the hospital in the second game.

>>718178872
well yeah, what's your point?

>>718177459
Because if they were going to kill him, they would have done so already. All of this was completely unnecessary.

You are all retarded.
The moral dilemma is not sacrificing someone you love for the greater good, it is about lying to your cute daughterfu.

>>718178658
i get that you want desperately to believe that.
but i'm sorry anon, people don't care about ideology or reputation or even reason when their life is on the line.

>>718177658
Ellie lived with Joel for a while afterward and bonded like a father and daughter in tlou2. Meanwhile Joel knew Ellie for how long in tlou1? Like, he is 100% projecting his dead daughter onto her, which is why he didn't give a fuck about the greater good and needed to save her at that exact moment. But once that moment had gone, Joel will realize his real daughter is still dead and Ellie was just a surrogate. And he would rather find meaning in her death through sacrifice for the greater good than just go on a vengeance rampage for someone he knew for a short time.

>>718178993
>All of this was completely unnecessary
You mean like refusing to let him say goodbye and antagonizing him, or knocking him out while he was trying to do CPR on Ellie? Yeah the Fireflies are retarded, this isn’t news.

>>718178993
I know for sure you didn't play the game because there is a specific reason Marlene was reluctant in killing Joel and tried to convince him about it instead of just killing him.
You seem to keep forgetting that Joel is Tommy's brother and Tommy is an ex-firefly.

>>718178983
The game is shit.

>>718179370
should play it before you yap about it

Never played either of the games, but Ellie is my wife

>>718179448
no way fag

>>718179448
>no argument
>just says play the game as a cope
So tell me why someone that you acknowledged knew was being lied to would not know and be mad later? Mental illness? Shit writing?

>>718179631
I have the strongest argument imaginable: you didn't play the game. Your opinion doesn't matter.

>>718179252
You seem to desperately want to believe that the Fireflies who are shown to be incompetent throughout the game would magically convince people that they have a working vaccine.
Pittsburgh chapter showed that they aren't liked at all. They found alongside the Pittsburgh survivors against FEDRA and the Pittsburgh survivors then hated the Fireflies for trying to bark orders at them.
You think people would do what, let the Fireflies lord over them? Because the game proves that people don't accept it.
You act as if this is the first year of the pandemic and that infection is a huge problem.

>>718159874
maybe, hear me out, maybe, humans were the real monsters all along

>>718179758
>they fought*

>>718141949 (OP)
bait or retardation?

>>718167196
>Seigel
Every time

>there are people who unironically think the fireflies, one of the single dumbest groups of people ever to have appeared in a work of fiction, would actually be able to create a vaccine
How did you turn out so stupid?

>>718179736
If it didn’t matter you wouldn’t keep replying. You’re either attention whoring or coping over say stupid shit and trying to make it look like you’re trolling. Which is what I would expect from a TLOUfag.

>>718141949 (OP)
It's actually insane how grotesque tlou2 is in contrast to the first game (before tlou1 DLC sexualized underage girls)

>>718179997
It’s a cycle born from narcissism. Midwits defended it and said it was a masterpiece in the most obnoxious ways possible and they can’t go back on that now since it would mean they have to acknowledge that they were wrong.

>>718179997
Emboldened by Cuckmann saying that they totally would've done it even though TLOU1 wasn't his story.

>>718179997
Sorry chud, the creator confirmed they 100% could have succeeded and saved the world without any issues whatsoever so Joel was objectively a monster that deserved what happened to him.

>>718180003
It doesn't matter, just want you to know that.

>>718179736
Joel was so handsome in the original PS3 edition, I want to rake my hand through his chest hair.

>>718179758
>incompetent...magically convince
>hated...don't accept
even supposing your ridiculous theory that everyone hates them sooo much that they'd rather die than buy a cure.
of course it's laughable but putting that aside.
they'd simply turn on their shortwave radio and tell people they have a cure. then people who never met them would show up. and as soon as the cure is proven, nobody cares anymore about grudges. it's that simple.

worst case, they get knocked down by someone who wants the cure for themselves. otherwise they will be kings.

>>718179284
Because he wasn't going to say good-bye. Like holy shit, are people still believing that Joel was just going to let Ellie die in the hospital? That if he said good-bye, gave him his money,guns,whatever or if they can prove they had a 100% chance of success, that Joel was not going to kill everyone and save her? Joel had long decided to do that, consequences be damned.

>>718180445
Based manly men appreciator. I got shit on yesterday for saying that men shaving their body hair is gross in a love and deepspace thread.

>>718179295
So they weren't going to kill him, thanks for proving my point.

>>718166201
He literally has blue eyes retard

>>718141949 (OP)
Joel harmed a lot of people when he chose to save Ellie. But he also only did what ANY father would have done and is worthy of forgiveness.

Tlou2 deifies Joel, he's literally the only character in the entire story who isn't an insecure wreck, the problem is that g*mers are man babies who can't emotionally navigate epic gruff gamer dad dying so they think that because Joel dies brutally that means Druckmann is trying to tell you that Joel is bad when it's not doing that at all

>>718179448
>>718179594
Sex with Ellie

>>718180504
>fireflies who are at best 50 people by the end of TLOU1 and have lost every single battle against hunters, fedra, normal survivors and even joel would broadcast to everyone that they have a vaccine which is the equivalent of wrapping steaks around you and entering a lion's exhibit

It's such a stupid idea that I think they would actually have done it, then get slaughtered by hunters or FEDRA.

>>718181020
>revolutionary gameplay innovations

>>718141949 (OP)
Bullshit
Even before tlou2 I was calling out tlou for it's shitty hypocrite and manipulative writing made for retards, clearly trying to portray joel as a good guy when he was a piece of shit. EVEN if you assume with 100% certainty that the cure wouldn't have worked, he was still killing shitloads of people who didn't deserve death, just to spare a single person, just because it clicked to him too late that this is what he wants to do

Also keep in mind the whole story is the most assbackwards allegory of a zionist israeli settler who grew up in an occupied illegal settlement fuming about palestinians and who now portrays them as a cartoonishly fanatical terror cult and while the other side is oppressive too it's only cuz muh cycle of hate

>>718180748
>arguing this much in bad faith when the argument started with why MARLENE herself was reluctant in just killing Joel straight away while every other Firefly wanted to off him when he delivered Ellie and why Marlene tried to convince him it was the right thing to do but then changed her mind and was okay with getting him executed when he got defiant

At this point I'll just assume you're trolling because nobody is this retarded. And if you're trolling, good for you, actually got me convinced.

>>718180717
these threads are probably full of fujos with shit taste, stay strong brother

>>718181361
God i hope her season is kino...

>>718181447
Season 2 was such a disaster even people who like part 2 have jumped ship

>>718178176
what do you suggest?

>>718181447
We won't have to look at this potato that much anymore.
It'll be great.

>>718181484
I am definitely watching for her, and many will

>>718180940
At the end of the day though, nobody in the audience wants Joel to die and the story doesn't actually do anything interesting with his death, so your choices are
>It's meant to be an attack on the audience because fuck you
>The writers are just THAT bad unintentionally
Not saying audiences can't be wrong and ridiculous sometimes but people have valid reasons for disliking his death.

why does humanity keep losing to zombies anyways? we mow down weaponless retards every single day
Shaun of the Dead is the only thing I can think of that would be an accurate zombie apocalypse scenario

>>718181647
The problem is that in the 21st century audiences are manchildren who think a story is bad if it hurts their feelings, the marvel cinematic universe has had disastrous consequences

>>718181647
Crazy to think that if it wasn't for that Bruce guy wrangling and saving TLOU1 from Druckmann's retardation, it would've been the exact same story as TLOU2 but with Joel killing Tess' brother instead of Abby's father and Tess going on a cross-country revenge to kill Joel.
TLOU2 needed Bruce.

>>718181813
>muh Druckman
idk why people keep blaming him for everything, it's retarded

>>718181673
Lack of information about transmission and disposal methods I guess. Settings where the virus/biocurse has a weaker airborne component that objects the majority, then direct infection gets the rest once society collapses makes the most sense.

>>718181785
...or the writing is just bad and many people agree. The funniest thing about this is that Joel's death even tanked the tv series too. The setup and execution is just dogshit to the point where the average person wants nothing to do with anything after it

>>718181673
In the last of us case it's because fireflies kept attacking quarantine zones after martial law was declared because muh democracy.

The room the surgery was taking place in was also filthy, who the fuck does surgery in such a place. CLEAN YOUR FUCKING WALLS.

Its a fungal infection.
Pretty sure vaccines don't work on that, or that there's any vaccine at all that work on fungi.

>>718181302
They knocked them both out, tried to trick Joel and held him hostage at gunpoint while they tried to murder Ellie without her being aware of any of it. Maybe if they didn't want to be seen as bad guys they shouldn't have gone about it in the most evil way possible

>>718181925
Because TLOU2 is basically 1:1 what TLOU1 would be if he was really in charge, as Neil and Bruce have spoken about it during TLOU1's press conferences back when it released.

>>718142114
Work or not, she's gay and wouldn't have children. Therefore, no reason not to kill her and try.

>>718181785
I don't disagree with you but I don't think TLOU2 is an example of this, people have valid reasons for disliking Joel's death that go beyond "it made me sad"

>>718182037
>filthy surgery room
>filthy scrubs
>filthy tools
>killing the only immune person after 1 hour of tests
Insane.

>>718152787
>>Why the fuck aren't they getting their best on this you don't know
Marlene states it. She didn't think she was going to survive and didn't trust her team to make the cross-country trek without her. Funny enough, she survives until you gutshot her for your surrogate daughter LMAO and her team makes it over there.

>>718151884
BASED post. (((Next guy))): BTFO.

>>718151838
He half wrote it. The only good parts are Starly. You can see this with how shit 2 is. No Bruce? Shit story.

>>718164403
>That
>Black
It's bad texture work, you can even see Joel (a white guy) is brown because of being tanned from a cross-country trek, you moron.

>>718182082
Doctor:"Hey Joel, us scientists are trying to figure out a vaccine. We're not going to start by taking a brain sample, that's fucking stupid. We need to run a lot of blood tests and we're trying to find an MRI so we can take some advanced scans of her brain. We think the secret might be in the cerebral fluid but we don't have the means to extract that safely like we could in a hospital before everyone got infected.

You see, this girl is immune and thus extremely valuable. It's in both our interests to keep her as safe and well cared for as possible while we try to get modern equipment to try and develop a vaccine. Her committing suicide or getting shot is literally an end of the world scenario, after all."

Joel: "So you're going to cut out her brain and run horrible tests on her?"

Doctor: "Joel, no, that's retarded. A retard would do that. We are doctors, not butchers and modern science before the outbreak was absolutely amazing in what it could do. It might take 20 years, or 30 years, maybe if we're lucky then just 5 but if Ellie is safe and we can get actually professionals willing to help us, we might just save the world.

Joel: "Are you sure you won't cut out her brain the moment you get her?"

Doctor: "Sir, only a retard would think that's an option. This girl might be the most valuable person in the entire world. Why would we do anything to make her not want to trust us? Your her guardian, so we'll go over all the tests that we think need to be done with the both of you. Remember: If Ellie dies we have no vaccine. You have all the cards here. Do you think you can help us collect functional medical equipment? While also keeping us safe, seeing as how you've killing like a thousand people?"

Joel: "...You take brain?"

JOEL PLEASE LET ME CRACK OPEN HER SKULL
JOEL JOEL PLEASE
I JUST WANT TO OPEN HER SKULL JOEL
JOEL PLEASE LET ME REMOVE HER BRAIN
I PROMISE THIS IS HOW VACCINES ARE MADE JOEL
JOEL JUST PLEASE LET ME RIP HER BRAIN OUT PLEASE

>>718164303
Let them cut her up. Or have told her flat out that they didn't need to do the rest of the Trek when they got to Tommy and he ABLOO BLOO BLOO'd 180'd into loving her as he did Sarah.

If she's really immune, she can have a kid and pass it on without the Fireflies doing the work. If they can't wait for her to have a kid, then they're fucking stupid.

Both sides were dumb, but Joel fucked up by dooming humanity on getting a possible cure.

It's why 1's story isn't the "GAME OF THE YEAR ALL YEARS" that the faggots that love it think it is. It's got gaping goat sweede level of plot holes in it.

>>718142114
>people with zero credentials demanding you hand over a girl so they can kill her on the 1% chance a cure happens
fireflies deserved what happened

>>718159860
It was fine, but it wasn't Uncharted 2 (pre 1.04) fun.

Another thing I don't get - biopsies of brain material has been a thing forever. Like, since the 60's. It's scary and can result in permanent damage but it's not like that shit is an instant death sentence. They literally happen every day!

Seriously, people get brain biopsies. Medical science is AMAZING. So wtf did they need her whole brain for. Even if you want to think of the single most evil way to be a doctor, wouldn't you just keep taking brain samples while keeping her alive for as long as possible?

I mean that's still dumb as shit for obvious reasons but god damn. Why start with killing her. How did anyone think this was a complicated moral dilemma?

Butter my butt and call me a biscuit, those are some reliable-looking fellas right there.

>>718141949 (OP)
>Kills people trying to find a cure
How is he not the bad guy? Any loss he would have would be a net good for everybody else.

>>718183898
>If I make this sacrifice on this altar surely the gods will reward us with good tidings
Nah, mow them all down. Fucking retarded savages

>>718183795
I refuse to accept they had the means to sanitize their tools. Or anything. The idea that this was supposed to lead to a vaccine is the single dumbest thing. If you can't even get the water running to clean your fucking work surfaces then what makes anyone think they can work on someones fucking brain?

moral dilemmas that only work when you don't know how the real world works suck ass. I get it, they would have made a vaccine. Word of God. Not a single thing in game hinted that this would have worked.

you literally have to ignore your own eyes and thoughts for this to make ANY sense.

>>718141949 (OP)
Jews can't handle White Men being the heroes of humanity's collective history and stories.

Tired of pretending that TloU2 isn't a modern-day masterpiece. The logical, evolutionary step to Shadow of the Colossus.

>>718164403
>dude literally looks like charcoal
>jewish anons in the replies argue "it's bad texture work"
don't you guys have more palestinian children to shoot or something

>>718144838
I just skipped through the last bits of the game, so I might be missing some context I don't remember from when I played, but I think they never told her. What I saw as the most damning evidence is Marlene saying something like 'It's what she would've chosen', rather than 'it's what she chose'. I think they just sped things along with the hopes of catching Joel off guard, as seen by the fact that they were almost slicing her up by the time you get the theater

>>718184292
Anon, the doctor isn't black. He's a dirty white guy. Absolutely filthy, like the rest of the room, but he's not black. Anyone with eyes can see that. Are you trying to prove you're a retard?

>>718184292
This is him unmasked: >>718183051

It's just a REALLY dirty white guy. Why is he so dirty and operating? Who the fuck knows, it's the firefly way, baby.

>>718184656
Still not sure what the point of the surgery is. They cut out the brain, kill her, and then...? Just look at the room, how the fuck are they expected to keep the tissue samples alive? just what was the game plan here. Do they even have freezers and shit? If they were going to be evil wouldn't it make more sense to keep her alive and take multiple biopsies?

it's just so stupid.

>>718184745
anon thinks black people have red hair lmao. no, that's just something us superior white people have.

>>718184847
YOU DONT GET IT
I NEED TO SAW HER SKULL
YOU GOTTA LET ME DO THIS

>>718178402
She always plays with her finger when she's nervous or in an awkward situation.

>>718185738
my point is those are the fingers she loses to Abby

>>718186418
It's simply a tic of hers, i don't think is some sort of foreshadowing.

>>718185738
what is this fucking shit ass dialogue

>>718141949 (OP)
Jews don't want you picking your own tribe over 'the greater good'. It's harder to control people when they're in different tightly-knit communities, they need one jeet-nigger slave caste with no real cultural background.

>>718166284
The creator of the game himself said there was a chance the cure could've actually worked saar

>>718167152
It's fucking extraordinary how many retards miss that this is the entire point. The people you love > the rest of the world.

>>718141949 (OP)
They didn't though

>>718168349
Ywnbaw
>>718168406
Lmaooooooo

>>718184934
>bitch never seen a conk before

>>718155192
>we don't know enough about the world to make that determination.
Tommy and Joel's backstory implies there's setups all over at every major crossroad for bandits to jump people and that it's not safe to roam anywhere let alone main roads. We also see it as we ferry Ellie everywhere with an entire section dedicated to a major throughput where bandits were actively hunting anyone going through their area down without remorse to rob them of their various goods when trying to go places.

Even Tommy's dam got attacked by bandits who wanted to overtake it that were in the area.

I used to think /pol/aks were just being edgy and then a Jew killed my husbando.

>>718167152
>>718189823
except per the game lore he wasn't sacrificing the world, the fireflies were incompetent fuckups.

>>718181562
nta but just fucking use the original games narrative where you sacrifice her for a desperate GAMBLE.
making it a morally questionable choice no matter what you pick.

worse change is the face swap for spiderman
no excuses for that

>>718189892
>argument: ywnbaw
>thing i agree with: HAHA FUNNYYYYY
lowest IQ poster ITT

>>718167152
>dude just turn your brain off lol
kys

>>718141949 (OP)
cuz he white and was right

>>718164303
let them cut and dilate his daughter without consent

>>718167152
>it doesn't matter if the sacrifice would be in vain or not
It actually does.

>>718191624
>>718192097
>>718192531
It literally doesn't matter. If they said that killing Ellie would 100% make a cure Joel still made the correct move. The world is already gone and sacrificing your family to save people you don't know is insane behavior. If Death came to me right now and told me I had to pick between sacrificing every retard in this thread or my dog I would pick all of you anons 100% of the time.

>>718142627
He didn't "interject" anything he replied to the thread itself as opposed to replying to someone else within the thread

>>718169721
pls respond

>>718193643
Why you want to play the shitty ai version when you have the Part I wich is better in everything?

>>718179594
Same. She reminds me of a girl I had a crush on in school.