Thread 718142657

Are videogames just glorified toys? Videogames have been around for a while now but where are the great artists?

Who is the Proust, Tolstoy, Dostoyevski of games?
Who is the D.W. Griffith, Dreyer, Bresson of games?
Who is the Wagner, Bach, Chopin of games?

>Wagner is art
>Put Wagner into a video game
>Somehow that video game soundtrack of Wagner isn't art
?

Who is Roger Ebert

>>718142657 (OP)

No idea, should I even care? Does Vidya being or not being art change my enjoyment of it?

retro vidya is art

>>718142746
That does not make the game itself a work of art

>>718142657 (OP)
some games are art, but most are commercial slop aka glorified toys and interactive films

and because a single game needs 8-500 employees to create means the game has to be designed so it sells enough to cover the budget and hopefully a little bit more to fund the next title
this means any artistic vision or voice takes a backseat to offend the least number of people

not every gamedev can work in isolation for 10 years like jon blow to craft a game exactly to their liking at a total financial loss, but when ai gets good and production is cheap, more people will try and maybe we'll break through the stagnation
I have tons of ideas, but I can't hire 500 staff to make them

>>718142657 (OP)
I don't care if they deserve to be called art or not because art is just a stupid concept but it's better to push them to be considered art because it gives them more legal protections

Video games meet the criteria of every single commonly-accepted or proposed definition of art (ie, human expression, admiration of a type of skill or craft, aesthetics, etc.). If your argument is that games aren't art because they do not directly have an equivalent to an organ composer from the 1600s, man that is so profoundly stupid.

>>718142657 (OP)
I don't know so I asked Grok and 100% of its answers were Japs.

>>718142657 (OP)
Didn't gamers remove his fucking jaw after that statement? Brutal

Shitty argument, something is only art if its the result of a single person? Ebert was a boomer retard who dismissed the medium because he didn't get it.
Also funny you mention Wagner because he pushed Gesamtkunstwerk (total works of art) through his operas, which combined several individual art forms (writing, music, dance, acting etc) into a fusion. Video games also combine a ton of distinct artistic disciplines into a single piece, suddenly its not art?
Really its because "art" has become a term of snobbery and seperated from its definition of human expression.

>>718142657 (OP)
gamers themselves don't even treat their own medium with enough respect to bother pondering this question in the first place

what a jaw dropping take

>>718142657 (OP)
Literally made by an art collective. This nigga just died before he could see real art.

>>718142993
I am genuinely curious as to which video game or games you think are genuine art. What video game or games do you think will survive hundreds of years like paintings, movies, books etc.? This is a genuine question by the way, I don't have any dog in this fight. I really don't care if video games are deemed art or not by the general populace.

>>718142657 (OP)
Why is this old lady so mad?

>>718142657 (OP)
do people even talk about video games being art these days?

>>718142756
a midwit who's never made anything known for having his jaw collapse

>>718143383
Mario Odyssey

No video games, like all games, are not art. Soccer is not art, tennis is not art, hopscotch is not art. Games can INCLUDE art as a part of their presentation. The pieces and board of a chess set might be elaborately decorated to the point where we can call them artworks, but the game of chess itself is not art. Likewise, a video game might include many pieces of art such as music, sprites, etc, but the game itself is just a set of rules. In most games, such as chess, human brain power is used to process the rules of the game, but video games are very complicated games, therefore it is processed by a computer instead. But if you were an infinitely smart person you could play a video game in your head just like how you can play a game of chess by writing down moves on a piece of paper, no board or pieces needed.

>>718142746
videogame music/art/stories are stuck because all games are designed for younger audiences
there's really not much for an actual mature adult to enjoy in the entire videogame landscape

just listen to this for the next hour
what videogame soundtracks compare?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZc-xQBzhyw

videogames are infantile, but it doesn't always have to be this way

>>718143261
Worse, they don't know their own medium and don't know who Proust, Dryer, or Chopin are either.

I don't understand why anybody cares. Do you think the average movie watcher watches them because they're art?

>>718143383
>paintings, movies, books
One of these is not like the other. If the electronic/digital format disqualifies videogames from art, then movies and music are also disqualified.

>>718142657 (OP)
>Are videogames just glorified toys?
They don't require glorification, they ARE toys
Immersionfags and normies who want to justify a hobby they likely saw in a socially negative light 20-25 years ago, are the only people who care about this shit
Actual gamers don't and shouldn't care about something as stupid as a hobby/ past time being art
You think people that collect bugs or stamps, or make beer for fun not profit give a fuck about something so elitist yet childish?

>>718143643
Collectors are rich and beer brewers have at least the option to become rich

>>718142657 (OP)
Yes they are toys for manchild

>>718142657 (OP)
He's right though since 98% of people still prefer remakes

>>718142657 (OP)
vidya lives on ebert remains dead

>>718142657 (OP)
this faggot wouldnt understand art if it hit him in the face

>>718142657 (OP)
>Not a single name from the first century of the existence of painting
False equivalence. Come back in 60,000 years.

>I NEED other people to recognize my hobby as (insert label)
>I NEED other people to respect my hobby
>I NEED other to call the thing I like good
>I based my entire identity on videogames so when people say something bad about videogames they say something bad about ME!
I opened this thread to laugh at you people.Who gives a shit what celebs think?

>>718142746
Some parts of that soundtrack might be art but those would be the parts recycled from non video game artists. Nothing video game original is art, that's what OP meant.
And a video game is supposed to be art as a whole, you shouldn't try to argue some specific element like video game music is art, that's like trying to argue that some particular strokes of paint in Mona Lisa are art while others might not be.

>>718142657 (OP)
I never understood how the same guy that was advocating for animation to be taken seriously as an art-form completely dismissed another medium that he knew basically nothing about.

>>718143792
Excessive amounts of money shouldn't have anything to do with anything
It's becoming the case, but it never was explicitly the case until aforementioned groups infected the sector

>>718142864
/thread

>>718143383
a lot of indie games are artsy fartsy and you can tell they weren't designed to sell, but still nothing has emerged that can really stand side by side with the greatest masterpieces

the witness does try to ask interesting questions about certain themes in a way that can only be done in games with some pretentiousness, but again, I don't think it'll end up in a museum or anything in 50 years
one thing that is different is that games require interaction which can lead to a different experience, and most people plain suck at games, so that already limits how many people can ever contemplate a videogame
whereas you only need a pulse to listen to a piano concerto, or see a mona lisa, or watch a film, which means anyone can have an opinion

ocarina of time is still the closest thing videogames has to a citizen kane in terms of defining the template of modern games and it'll always be remembered for that, but the story is still baby tier which holds it back...

another thing really holding games back is they have very narrow themes, they don't really deal with humanity, it's like they're only using 10 colors out of hundreds
how many births, marriages, deaths (of an important character) and funerals are in videogames?

>>718142657 (OP)
Even Kojimbo agrees

>>718142657 (OP)
any game with
>battle pass
>lootboxes
>EOMM
>constant content updates intended to break and change things only to make people thing the game is fresh and exciting
>microtransactions
cant be art and exist for no reason other than taking as much time and money from you, arcade style games arent art they are toys designed to challenge your reflexes, multiplayer games that dont contain any of the things on the list arent art they are the digital version of playing a sport with your friends and/or random people at the park, although without any of the physical or social benefits. RPGs can be considered art if you consider the very hungry caterpillar to be art

>>718142657 (OP)
>bogged out boomer feeling threatened that the times are passing him by
No one gives a fuck about cinema and movies anymore, he's just malding
who cares?

>>718144436
this card even has more of a jaw then ebert

>>718143874
>vidya lives on
not sure gachashit and gaas counts as living

Videogames are NOT art. The people who want games to be "artistic" actively hate gaming.

>>718142657 (OP)
Why does video games NEED to be art?
How does this benefit the players?

>>718142746
a cabinet is a piece of art but a room with a cabinet is just a room

>>718143383
this game is genuine art
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takeshi's_Challenge

it is a humorous critique of videogames and salaryman life, which already gives it more substance than 99.9% of games
and beat takeshi is a true artist

I guess suda51's early games could be considered art
flower, sun, rain and killer7 are quite hard to make sense of, but they create surreal experiences that few games offer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VNxqhM5pKI

>>718142657 (OP)
I hope it stays that way.
Leave the movie faggots with their "I am very smart" simulators.

>>718144012
This. All faggots who want games to be "accepted" are just insecure normalfags.
Gaming was at its peak when being a gamer gave basic bitch normies the ick.

>>718142657 (OP)
Ebert pisses off /v/ a lot but consider, are there any board games that are art?
Most of the video games that can be considered art bridge into immersive storytelling in the same way some movies do. The actual gameplay itself has no artistic merit. Only the narrative component.
The only game that could be considered art to me is Ever17 which is functionally a movie with some narrative tricks to enhance the sense of interaction. There's no actual gameplay!

>>718142657 (OP)
I don't get this argument
>All media can be art!
>But not the newest form! No! NEVER!
It's only ever repeated by old farts and pseuds, too. Movies used to be looked down on, and now people swear certain films are art. It'll happen to games sooner or later too.

>>718142864
Smartest post I've read this month.

>>718144485
very narrow minded perspective anon. plenty of games. plenty of jaw cancer.

>>718144519
Because normalfags feel deeply insecure about playing videogames and see them as something "for children". So they want them to be "mature" and "adult" and "artistic" so they dom't have to feel ashamed anymore.

>>718144012
That's what happens to most people that forsake God. Instead of learning and growing, they become dependent on primitive shit like social totem poles and attention seeking. Incidentally they fancy themselves as non conformists.

>>718144519
players don't know what is good for them
not all games need to be art, but provoking the player into thinking about things is fun
there's more to life than bing bing wahoo

>>718142657 (OP)
The art is in muh gameplay. Can't see it? Maybe you are just dumb.

>>718143586
>One of these is not like the other. If the electronic/digital format disqualifies videogames from art, then movies and music are also disqualified.
People who argue in good faith that video games are not art don't use that as their main reasoning as to why it's not art. I rarely if ever see that argument. Actually, those who argue in good faith, tend to say that video games ARE actually art, but that it's BAD art. And they argue that it can't ever be good art. The main argument being the interactivity in video games which undermines the contemplative experience. The contemplative experience is essential to art.

Take Sony’s movie games for example, uou know the ones: the Last of Us, God of War etc. A lot of people here on /v/ criticize these types of games for focusing too much on narrative and not enough on gameplay. They often get dismissed as "cutscene fests" or " boring ass walking simulators." But ironically, it’s these games that might actually function better as art, precisely because they limit player control. By taking agencyaway, the creators are able to deliver a more focused, contemplative experience. Something closer to what a movie director or novelist might create.

So, here’s the question:
Do you remove player control in order to deliver a deeper artistic vision, even if it makes the game "worse" as a game? Or do you prioritize interactivity and gameplay, possibly at the expense of that emotional or artistic depth?

Can a video game do both well?

video games have been bigger than movies for a while now,
movie theaters are dying, streaming is a mess
why would I care what moviefags think?

capable of being art
>poems and plays (not novels or nonfiction)
>paintings and drawings
>sculptures and woodwork

not capable of being art
>movies or television shows
>video games
>music

>>718144715
Am I supposed to sculpt the penis?

>>718142657 (OP)
new vegas
if war never changes, then its men who must change

>>718143436
No. There are no more champions to defend art.

>>718142657 (OP)
>3d art is not art
Who is this ugly dyke and why do I care for her opinion?

>>718143383
rez might, since it's so abstract and visually and auditorily appealing
what is the game about? nobody knows
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-HsJ1KNqs0

>>718144646
Don't reply to me again you schizo faggot

>>718144701
sorta but a lot of video games have movie references in them sooo..

>>718144646
Don't reply to my wife's son either. Fucking schizo

>>718142657 (OP)
>Who is the Wagner, Bach, Chopin of games?

Lorien Testard

Hundreds of years from now the soundtrack of Expedition 33 will be held in the same regard as the great classical composers. It's that good

Plenty of other guys like Nobuo Uematsu and Marty O'Donnell have made works on that high level as well

>>718142657 (OP)
unc wants people to consider ice climbers the camus of video games

>>718144691
>Can a video game do both well?
half life shows you can tell an interactive story in very interesting ways without taking away control from the player, and drawing attention to points of interest

also a bunch of vr games have done this as well

unfortunately videogame stories still are quite shallow, stuck in comic book tier, nothing as complex or deep as the greats of literature

>>718142657 (OP)
>the art

>>718142657 (OP)
This guy never even made a single art.

the medium is the message, simple as, video games arent art

>>718144519
>Why does video games NEED to be art?
it doesn't, it's just insecure wannabe auteurs trying to "elevate" the medium to assuage their inferiority complexes

>this thread again
fuck off

>>718145072
Neither is literature then
or music
or movies

>>718144646
meds

>>718145113
yes

>>718145113
>video game cause violence
>Neither is literature then
>or music
>or movies
Yes

>>718143383
nier automata might, due to the philosophy and existential issues it touches upon, and that it happens to have good aesthetics, music and gameplay also helps
but to compare it with moby dick or the illiad? I dunno

a videogame of dante's inferno could be really interesting, especially if it builds upon the original and changes things

>>718144691
>The main argument being the interactivity in video games which undermines the contemplative experience
other forms of media famously are not interactive and feature a completely airtight barrier between the act and the experience of the act that no thought or subjectivity or emotion can cross or be interpreted in a way other than what the creator originally intended

>>718142657 (OP)
toys can be considered art, ergo video games are art
not that it matters, I enjoy nature much more than architecture and guess whhich one is considered more artistic?

>A banana nailed to a wall is art
>But your new medium is not
I don't give a fuck what artfags think, they're a joke.

is the game of poker art or does it need to be digital? are online casinos art?

>>718142657 (OP)
did this guy ever do anything but bitch and die? hes no different then any other faggot on youtube

>>718142657 (OP)
He changed his mind later

>>718145385
we're talking about "great" art
not just as any artistic expression, which is plain art
games definitely fit the plain art category

If modern music is art then anything can be art.

ummm bros... this doesnt seem to include my bing bing wahoo

>>718144634
This is the only correct answer.
It’s also why 3rd person movie games are heralded as so mature and actual art, the less interaction with a game the less it’s seen as a game and therefore its worthy being seen as something for adults, it’s why minimalism UI is so rampant, why most QTEs are incredibly minor and easy, why there’s yellow paint, it’s because the less its forces the user to actually think the less its a videogame. These people don’t want to interact, they want to indulge, a world of intrigue? Player agency? That’s so childish! I work hard! I shouldn’t have to do something to be entertained! I want my power fantasy and I want it now! What?! I *HAVE* to do work? Hmph, fine; I’ll just look up some guides, ah, this “how to be overpowered in the first hour” video sounds prefect, now I don’t have to engage… Phew! Almost, You almost got me! You almost made me play a videogame! Like a infantile retard!

>>718145446
spirits within eh? fuck him either way.

>>718145326
There is already a game called Dante's Inferno, but it's a shitty God of War clone whose only claim to fame is having the biggest cock in video games in it

>>718145484
Well?

>>718142657 (OP)
This is art.

>>718142657 (OP)
Literally who.
A random boomer has a booker opinion. Why even post that garbage here?

>>718145326
>dante's inferno

Already happened, it was pretty good

>>718145536
that's not what I had in mind for a dante's inferno game lol

I wonder if devil may cry was an attempt at a bizarro dante's inferno, I never played any of them, so I don't know if there's any similarities beyond the main character's name

>>718145594
OPs post is an old stale pasta from 2010.

>>718144590
>It's only ever repeated by old farts and pseuds, too. Movies used to be looked down on, and now people swear certain films are art.
could you imagine if they started setting movies to pre-recorded soundtracks instead of using live music? what happened to art??

>>718145616
but does it do anything interesting?
is there a level with a bunch of lawyers chained in a pit of lava or something? and your mercy is tested?

there's so many interesting things games could do, but they just don't...

>>718142657 (OP)
>Are videogames just glorified toys?
Yes, but there's nothing wrong with that. Play is an important part of life, no matter what age you are.

>>718143383
>What video game or games do you think will survive hundreds of years like paintings, movies, books etc.?

Tetris. If I seriously had to pick one game to survive forever it would be that one

>>718143079
Videogames are not art due to their interactive nature.

>>718145674
there must be more arguments like this when it came to black/white vs color, paint vs photo, when actors started talking in films, etc etc
these outdated takes need to be compiled into one big image

>>718144590
>Movies used to be looked down on

No, they were not. In the silent film era, art critics were comparing silent films to poems and paintings. Cinema already had artists like Dreyer, Griffith, Eisenstein, Murnau, Kirsanoff, Lang, Flaherty, Sjostrom, etc.

>>718143586
We still read stories written millennia ago, we still listen to music composed centuries ago, we enjoy the sculptures and paintings of long gone civilisations.
But no one, I repeat: NO ONE in a hundred years will even remember whatever slop videogame you consider art.

>>718145839
>Videogames are not art due to their interactive nature.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhythm_0

>>718145793
it is a timeless game with perfect mechanics, but is there anything profound or deep about it?
what impact has it had on the world, just being a addictive time waster doesn't quite cut it as great art

>>718145839
not true
it just limits their audience because most people can't get past a tutorial

>>718146030
>performance art

>>718146030
Modern "art" isn't art either, but for different reasons.

>>718146050
>>718146071
>it doesnt count, okay?? because it... just doesnt!!!
you are afraid and that's okay

>>718142657 (OP)
>Who is the Proust, Tolstoy, Dostoyevski of games?
Prose isn't art.

you people probably think slot machines are art

anyone who says
>so-and-so isnt art either
is missing the point entirely and is deeply fascistic in thinking

>>718142657 (OP)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBTAGVnfXAw
get rekt

>>718146126
If we go by this definition:
>the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.
Particularly the last part, this is where modern "art" fails. The primary concern of modern art isn't beauty or emotional power, but rather novelty.

>>718142657 (OP)
videogames are a combination of several arts, it's really hard to get someone who is a master of all those arts

wagner only had to worry about music and nothing else
games have a much higher bar to reach for greatness, and their potential is wasted as virtual babysitters

>>718146339
Your games aren't art lil timmy, just accept it

>>718146384
>videogames are a combination of several arts
If you take a hamburger, a pizza, chicken tenders, a steak, and mix all those things in a blender, is the result any of the ingredients?

>moving pictures = art
>moving pictures, interactive = not art
??

>>718146358
>If we go by this definition:
you already fail here
asserting a definition of art that precludes the object of your disinterest because of your disinterest
>>718146454
a movie therefore cannot be art, being a combination of several arts

>>718145839
There’re arguably the most interesting evolutionary art by making the person a actual member of the story;
First we had oral storytelling, next we had books, both of which are the story is created in your mind using the dialogue/written word, a purely self visual interaction, then we had plays, opera, a visual and sound experience given to those stories, but only to a select few and in a specific spot, then we had radio shows, the visual is sacrificed to give the audio to many, all of which were still the person experiencing a purely imaginative view, tv and movies brought the visual back while also ensuring many people can indulge with it now, but videogames?
Their interaction was a beautiful evolution, as slow as it was, the person indulging was now truly with the story, they did things that influenced it going forward, that ending didn’t happen because you waited, the protagonist didn’t succeed without your influence in the story, there wouldn’t even be a story without you pushing forward, as the genres grew it became easier to let the person interacting do whatever they liked really, however, a economy still exists, a game shouldnt do EVERYTHING otherwise it risks destroying itself, its creators.
It’s wonderfully unique no matter the genre, yes quite a few are simple but the principle stands; you are the story. That’s an art, a misunderstood concept due to unique properties and young age, books have had centuries to be respected, movies have quite a few decades on it, tv as well. Games will be respected by default generally one day, its just difficult with how much sabotage it’s gotten, because it’s simply to profitable to let it

>>718146454
you missed my point
the weakest link brings the whole thing down
videogames are more complex than previous artforms, so it's very hard for masterworks to emerge

and yes, videogames are their own thing, but it still has disciplines of other artforms within it

>>718142993
some movies are art, but most are commercial slop aka glorified toys and interactive books

and because a single movie needs 8-500 employees to create means the movie has to be designed so it sells enough to cover the budget and hopefully a little bit more to fund the next title
this means any artistic vision or voice takes a backseat to offend the least number of people

not every filmmaker can work in isolation for 10 years like coppola blow to craft a movie exactly to their liking at a total financial loss, but when ai gets good and production is cheap, more people will try and maybe we'll break through the stagnation
I have tons of ideas, but I can't hire 500 staff to make them

>>718144701
the problem is just that, people thinking that games need to emulate movies to be art or artlike

>>718146515
So you consider Fortnite and Fifa to be art?

>>718142657 (OP)
>talk a bunch of shit
>god takes away "his" mouth

>>718142657 (OP)
cope harder and put more skin smoothing filters on your face dweeb

>>718146608
megalopolis is art

and yes, most films are not art
joe dirt is definitely not

>hire 500 staff to make them
it is much easier to make a film than a game
a complex idea in film can still be done by 1 guy, or 5 guys

Videogames are about as artistic as comic books and pulp/YA novels

>>718146769
what exactly precludes them from being art?

>>718146907
Everytime I see Kojima he’s just doing shit, what the fuck is this

>>718142657 (OP)
Video Games operate an extremely weird space where it IS in fact art, all the way up until it ISN'T. Like, the instant it's handed off from the developer to the player, it is no longer art. There is no way to ever experience a video game when it is art, but it was, in fact, at one point, art.

Define art

>>718142657 (OP)
Toys are art as well

You can argue how good/bad vidya is as a art, but it is art without a doubt

video games cant be a money laundering tactic for the elite rich?

>>718142657 (OP)
How long were books around before they their versions of Tolstoys, Dostoevsky et al?

>>718146952
I kinda understand what you’re on about but I have to disagree, yes the making of games is truly a art, but the players interaction is a proof of it I’d argue, even if the player does the gameplay equivalent of slapping their belly and blowing raspberries with their mouth it’s how the game represents the belly slapping that proves it’s creators art IS art

>>718146902
I genuinly feel sorry for you if you think it is. You haven't seen or experienced much in life if you do. There's more in the world than your digital toys.

>>718142657 (OP)
the average UE5 game looks like this now, what more do you want out of the artistic side?

>>718142657 (OP)
Developers and gamers treating games as disposable consumerist products prove that they're just toys, not art. Moviegoers don't look at classic films and deem them unwatchable trash that need remakes. "Why isn't this remade yet?" Is the clarion cry of the modern gamer, who begs to be fed slop. Ebert was right, video games have no artistic merit whatsoever.

>>718147114
do i have to be condescending and disingenuous to enjoy art too

still no vidya that deals with faith properly
in fact, I can't think of any games that really depict true friendships, videogame characters are still really shallow, even in narrative driven ones
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it_SJXr5fdM

>>718147164
That looks like pure kitsch aesthetically speaking. Get some taste

>>718142657 (OP)
Video games are not art, they are consumer products intended to be bought by the audience. As such they should pander to that audience, to make money.

This art bullshit is why they keep making crap nobody wants.

>>718147114
didnt answer the question btw

>>718147164
modern games have shit art
90s games had the best art

>>718147226
Are music albums not art?

>>718142657 (OP)
Art just means human expression. Video games are art on multiple levels. And so is every post in this thread

>>718147209
not falling for your bait bro

>>718142657 (OP)
Art is for pretentious losers who like to act refined and all that. I just want to have fun with my vidya.

>>718147227
What artistic merit do fifa and fortnite have? What artistic merit does any game have? What game says ANYTHINg about the human condition? It is all just entertainment slop

>>718147226
>This art bullshit is why they keep making crap nobody wants.
They keep making bullshit because they can't figure out how to make art with the medium. It is orders of magnitude more difficult to make art with a video-game because every artform that goes into creating a video-game needs to be masterfully executed in each game.

Wake me up when video games start selling for millions a pop, then people will call them art, because right now they are just toya, a commodity

>>718147314
Your glorified interactive film is not art

>>718147169
that doesnt make games not art, just means a lot of people that are gamers dont want art
>[Gamers] just want Ayn Rand-ian written characters, where the main villain is like Wesley Mouch. You immediately know what to feel about each character. […] When you make an unlikable character, people expect Sherlock Holmes or Dr. House.
>They want flawed heroes, but only to the extent that they’re beautiful and intelligent and slightly Asperger-y. But they manage to be dicks to everyone and they get away with it because they bring some sort of savant-ism that saves the world. So if you make a character who’s just some hipster obsessed with the paranormal who hasn’t grown up yet and treats his friends like shit, people immediately feel- they don’t know how to process this.
and "consumerist disposables" are found in literally every other artform

>>718147305
a fart is not the same as an oil painting
both are human expressions, but games are more like the former than the latter

would you hang a videogame poster on your wall? lol

>>718144993
Should I continue Expedition 33? I adore music and art direction but gameplay is already getting repetitive and I got tired of it after Goblu

>>718147381
> A copy of ‘Super Mario 64’ sold for over $1.5 million, the most ever paid for a video game
> https://edition.cnn.com/style/article/super-mario-auction-video-game-record-scli-intl

Pretty sure a half eaten bucket of KFC can be art too

>>718147114
Lmao

>>718143383
Homeworld. Its use of the medium is essential to the story being told.
You are fleet command and you are entirely responsible, both for what happened to your people and for their future. No book, movie or painting can create that level of personal investment in a tragedy, nor place it at the feet of the reader.

>>718147421
>would you hang a videogame poster on your wall? lol
hell yea

>>718147375
You don't even have to execute a single thing masterfully to create art

The only thing more insufferable than artfags are the anti-artfags.

>>718147443
They can be art objects, BUT video games are not art itself, just like duchamps toilet is not art by itself

>>718143530
So what you're saying is....go play DnD?

>>718147226
Films and music are not art then because they are also consumer products with the ultimate goal of making money

>>718143530
baffling levels of retardation, +1 for making me respond

A game is a game. A play. A babysitting activity.

Art is an art. It’s something to behold to think about.

>>718147546
It is art by itself, that's the point

>>718142657 (OP)
>Video games can never be art
I agree, videogames are on a whole another level than Art that it's even laughable to even consider comparing the both, it only reduces a videogame's value and potential.

And it's precisely these dumbasses with useless art degrees and no real life experience who think themselves as artists, and thus, the pinnacle of game developers, the main reason why the flooded industry became stagnant and produces garbage nowdays.

Art is a selfish, static and self-serving view of the artist, videogames are not. Well, at least they weren't, until the aforementioned people overtook the industry

>>718147173
eat my shorts video games

>>718147169
>the audiences reaction defines art
gay, if we used that as a basis we wouldn’t have anything at all

>>718147428
It's definitely worth finishing but the gameplay is gonna stay the same throughout. Maybe just watch a longplay or something if it you're not feeling it

>>718147508
The people claiming that games aren't art are implying that games aren't high art and there's likely cross-over with them and people who don't think Pollock's splatters are art either.

The problem with games is the people who make them and play them. They have zero interest in other forms of art and have very nerdy taste. They like crap like comic books, board games, blockbuster slop, etc.

>>718147456
Then why Broken Sword is not an art? It’s the same genre the same game just differently „painted”

>>718142657 (OP)
Based
Videogames are entertainment, not art
Simple as
>>718142746
>paintings are art
>somehow putting paintings into a museum makes the museum art

>>718142657 (OP)
Games are just a medium. While I wouldn't call most of them art, I wouldn't state that the medium is categorically unsuitable, especially seeing what contemporary art is like.

>>718147342
>What game says ANYTHINg about the human condition?
fire emblem has moments
https://youtu.be/hKovOzLdvaM?t=459

here's a father consumed by dementia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSy7YEa3TBo
but mostly the game is teenage fiction tier

>>718147840
what?

>>718142657 (OP)
lmao shut up egbert

>>718147820
Ace Combat 7s Daredevil and Frost Punks The City Must Survive songs are beautiful despite being apart of games

>>718147703
are you implying games are not worth to think about?

then what the fuck are you doing on a videogame discussion forum

>>718142746
>shove the mona lisa in your mother's asshole
>somehow your mother's asshole isn't considered one of the greatest pieces of art
?

>>718143530
Pretty sure chess is an art m8

Define art

>>718147952
Games dont provoke deeper thoughts they are just mindless repetition, an activity. I’m here to discuss video games to take my mind off real life I’m escaping

>>718147880
Art is entertainment

>>718147775
I see, I will try and see if I can stomach it enough.
I just hate how entire game feels like spamming the same skills every encounter and doing the same QTEs over and over. Even QTE button stays the same. The only difference so far are dodge/parry timings and I am pretty sure later down the line some enemies will have bullshit attack patterns

>>718147480
>personal investment in a tragedy
but that's not a story, that's just you stuffing up, and there's no consequences because you can just start over

d

>>718148021
>Games dont provoke deeper thoughts
Maybe not in you, but then again, what does

>>718147226
Art can be mass produced too, as decorations.

>>718146939
One cannot be La Creatividad without sacrificing childs.

>>718148119
>that virtual person that died? Dude that was so deep, have you seen how that block fell out of the virtual sky? Dude I can’t stop thinking about it

>>718148021
You are a simpleton we get it. Thats why you use video games and 4chan to escape your real life cause you dont ponder anything

>>718148082
>but that's not a story
Yes it is
>and there's no consequences because you can just start over
Yeah you can rewatch a movie too

>>718147703
games can make you think, unfortunately most do not
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpH7HyGlakg

games can be the perfect vehicle for examining and questioning reality
I had loads of ideas, but it's just too much effort to do it the way I want and it won't pay the bills -_-;

>>718144701
Video games pretty much are interactive movies though. Not only do video games think about movies all the time, they outright copy them.

>>718148194
What is so deep and complex in the video games then? Maybe if it was a game that you could boot up only once and then it self destroyed then it would be something worth considering

>>718148193
>that virtual person that died? Dude that was so deep
You do know that movies aren't real either

>>718148193
damn, it must suck to be born so low IQ, sorry man

>>718148082
>but that's not a story, that's just you stuffing up, and there's no consequences because you can just start over
If it's good enough to make Romeo & Juliet art, then it's good enough to make Homeworld art. Give me a definition of art that allows one but not the other.
Also, stop posting Egbert, you're meant to be long since passed from this world.

>>718147820
agree, most are made by people who have never lived, so games focus on mindless activities of youth

>>718142756
The guy who was Jay to Siskel's Mike

>>718148307
Says the manchild with huge imagination

>>718145839
So playing an instrument is not art?

Video games aren't art because the part of the game that is unique to the medium (GAMEPLAY) is not art.

Ask yourself, is snakes and ladders art? If no, video games aren't either, if yes, you're retarded. Ask yourself, if you took the music/audio, cinematics and graphics out of a game, leaving only it's gameplay, is it art?

Video games can contain art in the form of music, textures, cinematics etc, but the game itself? It's just a game.

>>718148351
>Lol, you can visualize the apple, that's so weird
Lol.
Lmao.
Lel even.

>>718148275
Games like that do actually exist
And, of course, conversely, your posts also exist vs. the works of Proust and Tolstoy

>not art
here's a shot from gta 4

>>718148386
>Video games aren't art because the part of the game that is unique to the medium (GAMEPLAY) is not art.
That's just circular reasoning.
Guess what, gameplay is art and therefore video games are art.

>>718148434
Thats photography, your image says nothing about the game itself being art.

>>718148275
People have thought up "game you can only play once" before
The Flash game One Chance is an example of such.

>>718147954
I bet a lot of people think his mom's ass is a work of art don't be like that

>>718142657 (OP)
dead asshole face man

>>718142657 (OP)
I forgot how desperate and histrionic developers used to be about external validation. How quaint.

4chan is literally the worst place to be having this discussion because no one here actually enjoys video games; enjoyment of video games is secondary to utilising the right type of video games as status indicators in the culture war. And, in that sense, the term "art" itself is too loaded. /v/ will never be able to answer this question objectively because it needs video games to not be art, whatever that may be (trying to understand what art is is for libs)

>>718142657 (OP)
if you consider anything in a contemporary art museum to be art then that sets the bar so low for what "art" is that a video game can indeed be art. Imagine calling some guy waving around a dildo art and trying to gatekeep video games from being "art".

>>718148193
it can be done well
mother 3 is one of the few games where a character's death is really felt by everyone in the game

>>718148226
oh yeah? and who is the author? just playing a thing doesn't make the sequence of events a 'story'

>>718148320
romeo and juliet is a carefully crafted story by an author
you stuffing up a starcraft campaign isn't a story, don't pretend you care about faceless nameless units

>>718148386
so it's just a matter of time for humans to accept hat video-games are art? we're just waiting for the paradigm shift. games are art, we're just waiting for the rest of you to die off or catch?

>>718147342
I enjoyed Ready Or Nots bleak portrayal of the ghetto, Devil May Cry’s storytelling of family, El Shaddais ideals of humanity, Rain Worlds persistence, Baldurs Gates adventure, Yakuzas humanity, Trepangs idea of freedom, Lisa The Painfuls hope, Paradigms confidence, Disco Elysiums redemption, Frost Punks perseverance, Superliminals dream, even something as barebones storytelling wise as Mount & Blade is about personal growth and effort gameplay wise.
You can’t just dismiss games as a whole due to their inherent nature of being interactive electronics, FIFA is racing; a fast thrill, Fortnite is Battleroyale; a slow burn grand fight, both of which can excite and be interesting dispute their fanbase and creators, I haven’t played a lot of either of those games to give a proper review but to wholeheartedly dismiss something because of how it’s generally regarded is ignorant in itself

>>718148556
Curiously, their historic desperation is matched if not surpassed by the current desperation of "gamers" to anxiously and unilaterally declare games NOT art

>>718148464
It's only circular reasoning if you decide what art means. Which is the hardest part of this question, but for me, mechanics aren't art because mechanics themself do not provoke any emotional response at all. I have thought mechanics were clever, fun, annoying, well implemented, unique, interesting, strange and many other adjectives but never moving or emotional.

They are simply the rules of the game.

>>718148029
You can completely disable the QTEs with an option in the menu. You might try the story mode difficulty too if the parrying gives you too much trouble. The gameplay is pretty standard for JRPG style games they are all pretty repetitive like this but thus is considered one of the best in that genre

>>718148582
If you tell someone that mother 3 changed your life and provoked deeper thoughts about life and death and ultimately inspired you to create something new well.. people might look at you a bit diffrently

>>718148386
>Ask yourself, if you took the music/audio, cinematics and graphics out of a game, leaving only it's gameplay, is it art?
that's as retarded as saying
if you took all the actors, music, set out of a film, is it art?!

>>718148486
Tell me the first word in the term “video game”
I realize the intelligence level Im dealing with, so we will take it slow with you.

>>718148351
That manchild is actively able to enjoy creative fiction while you mald about its existence

>>718148715
Leaving what?

>>718148740
He’s still a child playing with toys, who cares

>>718148582
>oh yeah? and who is the author? just playing a thing doesn't make the sequence of events a 'story'
There are so many flawed assumptions underlying this statement.
>Art needs to "tell a story"
>A story can only be told in certain, specific ways
>A story is an expression of a singular authorial intent
Of course, art can do more than tell stories; stories themselves are ways of conveying ideas and emotions. Art always exists in the interplay between author and audience, and relies on interpretation. And art is frequently the result of collaboration and happenstance, if not outright audience participation. Not to mention, of course, the Death of the Author. "Authorship" is a much broader notion than you think.

>>718148681
it did, and has for a lot of people, which is why the mother/earthbound fanbase is really rabid (for the wrong reasons unfortunately)

>>718148386
We had text adventures on the most basic computers before we had anything else in games you numpty of course we can still say it’s art without anything but the gameplay

>>718148623
Fifa is football actually but no further remarks

>>718148779
what do you play with

>Art focuses on self-expression and creativity, while craft emphasizes skill and functionality in creating tangible objects. The distinction often lies in the intent and purpose behind the work.
In other words, it depends.
Case closed.

>>718148879
I play with my willy

The reason /v/ dolts deny the fact that video games are art is because they it will make every video game a snoy movie game.
Thats why they try so hard.
When in reality, Mario 64 is art, Tetris is art, Stellar Blade is art, its all art.

>>718148640
>for me, mechanics aren't art because mechanics themself do not provoke any emotional response at all
Right, well, that's wrong. It's cliché to point at Kojima but he does know quite well how to use mechanics to convey specific emotions.

>>718142657 (OP)
Presenting these people with 'artsy' games is pointless because if they can't see the artistic merit in something as simple as Pac-Man they're beyond convincing.

>>718148854
Shit, I was thinking of a similar named series, still, thinking of, wish there was more sports related indie games, I get it’s hard to evolve the gameplay but there has to be ideas there

>>718148831
Text adventures are just choose your own adventure books adapted to be enjoyed on a computer.

>>718148623
>El Shaddais ideals of humanity
el shaddai is interesting, it's a reimagining of the book of enoch, it has some really good art and music, but the gameplay is poor

this part was fantastic though
https://youtu.be/iH-X_CfPZx0?t=196

>>718148925
Name one, i've played and enjoyed all his games.

we have this same thread day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day

and people still come in here earnestly arguing with and feeding trolls, whats wrong with you?

>>718142657 (OP)
Where are the great artists of anything anymore?
International intellectual property law has essentially killed culture and promoted bloated businesses to the forefront, because these are the only businesses that can afford to hire the kind of legal and marketing teams necessary to navigate the landscape they've created, where one business can essentially sue another just to slow down their growth, maybe even just being able to tank the legal fees long enough to run their competitor completely out of business.
Most of major growth of the early 20th century was just the adaptation of public domain or unprotected works into new technology, something that has been heavily stonewalled in the 21st century due to international consolidation.
>>718142951
If it's transformative, then it would be.
Gameplay can alter the context through which you experience something heavily.

I’ve never seen a functional member of society play video games all day. Video games are toys they steal your time, they dont make you a better person, they make you a shut in nerd escapist motherfucker. On the other hand you have a high society person conemplating real art, you can see the difference

>>718148984
This is not a bad thing

>>718148582
>romeo and juliet is a carefully crafted story by an author
Ahh so you are actually retarded then.
Carry on I suppose.

>>718148815
if the events are not meaningfully arranged for an audience, it's not a story

you're not going to get any of the impacts of a good story from just random events
watching a playthrough is not enjoying a new story

>>718149043
diamond in the ruff. sometimes i read something i've never read before and soemtimes it isn't even retarded

Video games aren't made by artists
They are made by programmers so they will never be art

>>718149096
I agree, I love video games, I don't need the thing I love to be considered art, it's irrelevant.

>>718149092
it depends on which games, how much you play and how varied the experiences are
you can't level up by just doing the same thing over and over...

>>718149118
the possible order of events is created by an artist so any possible permutation of those events is art

You can tell this old tranny approved of movies like Caddy shack and thought they were the funniest movies ever but didn’t like movies with John Candy

>>718148668
I know this game has been praised as one of the best in JPRG genre but I just can't enjoy the gameplay. QTEs I will disable and I am pretty good with parrying so I don't mind

>>718142657 (OP)
most retarded vidya "controversy" ever
>ebert knew very little about games
>experience was limited to watching his kids play mario
>when asked if vidya is art his brain immediately goes to pac-man and bing bing wahoo
>"fuck no"
>gamers seethe
>ebert finally takes the time to learn about modern games with actual characters and stories
>"oh yeah i guess this can be art"
why are people still pissed off about him? he's been dead for like 10+ years.

>>718143383
this ending is definitely art
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHXXtj3EDuE

>>718142657 (OP)
Would you consider your regular games like chess or connect 4 like as art ?
Probably not. Video games are the same, games after all. It's not art, nore sport, it's only a game. And this isn't a bad thing you know...

>>718149335
The cutscene? Whats that got to do with proving video games are art?

>>718149286
that's a stretch
you might as well consider each day in your life as a story lol
technically they are, but they aren't structured, they don't have any of the things you want from a good story

>>718149268
Elon Musk, Bezos, or others dont sit around and think
>oh I wish I played video games more they are so valuable, they changed my life, everyone loves video games, they are peak human artistic expression
fuck no, everyone will tell you video games are a waste of time, if you played a lot of them you know exactly what I mean

>>718149038
So you appreciate art, but you think you don't because you don't know what it is.
Death Stranding is of course all about using the gameplay to evoke a certain feeling but a more classic example is MGS2 e.g. frustrating the player by pitting him against an unwinnable boss fight where the life bar is just a sliver, or suddenly changing the rules after Raiden loses his gear.

>>718149429
the implications, since you were controlling him the whole game
and you didn't even watch the damn video since it's 15mins long and you posted just 2mins after me you little brat

>>718149043
I like to be right about things and it's easier if I go somewhere where everyone is wrong

>>718148904
Not much gameplay there, not even multiplayer

>>718149318
To be fair gaming has never been respected because your playing child’s toys on a screen created by some other dude, so these old boomers don’t respect it like Hollywood which was about who you know and clout

>>718146876
>a complex idea in film can still be done by 1 guy, or 5 guys
same with a video game. both will work within the limitations of their resources.

>>718149385
The original version of Monopoly is art thoughbeit. The use of rules and gamification to deliver or alter a message or experience is art.

>>718142657 (OP)
Yes, videogames are toys and there's nothing wrong with that.
Only coping manchildren say otherwise.

>>718149118
>you're not going to get any of the impacts of a good story from just random events
Wrong for two reasons:
Every real story is the result of random events
But video game stories are actually made up of curated and delimited events

>>718149318
>why are people still pissed off about him? he's been dead for like 10+ years.
In case you haven't noticed, /v/ has been in limbo since 2014 and there have been no significant developments on the bait front

>>718149486
elon musk loves deus ex, in fact he said games like that were one of his motivators to learn programming in the first place
he still plays games today
in fact I think he plays the wrong games

>everyone will tell you video games are a waste of time
everyone has an asshole too
I don't care what fart noises come out of them

>>718149592
Gaming never was respected because its all in its name. A game. A thing that children do.

>>718142756
A twelve year old corpse.

>>718149092
What the difference anyway? We are going to die sooner or later so if people are happy with themselves then why should I care if someone is "wasting" their time playing vidya or enjoying art? Anyway life is about finding a way to waste your time in enjoyable manner.

>>718142657 (OP)
say what you want
it's not part of my fragile ego
I don't care

>>718149596
nah, everything done in a videogame takes 5-20x the effort simply cause it's interactive and open ended
just making a cat as a background detail adds months of work
whereas in film, you can just film a goddam cat in an afternoon

>>718143271
only problem is that DE has more in common with choose-your-own-adventure books than it does video games.

>>718143383
Dwarf Fortress

>>718149675
Yes, games can inspire and tell a story. But they are worthless in the end. Just toys something to spark your imagination. Interactive movie. Interactive book.

>>718149496
I love video games, they are a major passion in my life, they just aren't art.
Your MGS2 example is neither profound, moving or emotionally impactful. It's a great moment in the game but the mechanic itself absolutely falls under the "mechanics were clever, fun, annoying, well implemented, unique, interesting, strange" category.

There are plenty of moving, emotional and impactful parts in kojima games, thing is they are all presented to the player through non gameplay, such as cutscenes, music, story.

>>718142657 (OP)
This was always a laughably bad take from a completely ignorant boomer. Its not even worth arguing honestly.

>>718149751
and that is a limitation in resources that can be worked around.
what is your problem with my argument?

>>718149617
real stories are crafted for maximum impact in the audience
you don't get that from random happenstance, only moments of coincidence where things converge can offer the highs of a well crafted story, and they are rare

this is why botw and totk suck
choose your own adventure books also suck

>>718142657 (OP)
non player's word doesn't matter in this discussion sadly for him

>>718149559
I skipped through to make sure there was no actual game part of it. The story is irrelevant to if the game itself is art.

We should just straight up ban video games
Society has been poisoned long enough by these electronic toys
Just imagine everything kids and even young adults could achieve if they have spent their time on something productive instead of this utter waste of time

>>718149601
To be honest I don't recognize others 7 "traditional art" as art either... It's mostly entertainment.
Food and love-making are the only two on my list.

>>718149824
>procedural generation
>art

>>718149826
>But they are worthless in the end
nope, games have value
but only in a balanced diet, junk food like gta, minecraft, dota, lol, pokemon have to be avoided

>>718149850
no, you can't make a game as one person anymore unless it's some 2d pixel shit, which sucks
and even then, it still takes far longer than someone making a short film on their own

>>718150042
so it's not art because it takes time to create?

>>718149234
That’s the best way to enjoy games, or any art, just disregard the critique and enjoy, if you speculate it later and find it to be art then eh, if not then also eh, its human

>>718149906
the game is art

>>718150060
that wasn't the argument he was making at all

>>718150089
Sounds like the story is art, dude should've just written a book if the story was that good.

>>718149939
This man gets it. They are not art, and if Kojima or someone tells you they are art, hes a hack and he’s literally spits you in the face.

Video games make retards, people who dont know how to think for themselves. I’m a recovering gamer, I rarely play nowadays and it dawns on me how much time and life I wasted on this shit. On the other hand I got interested in life, and real art, and it’s really inspiring. You can say anything but these electronic toys are product of this dystopian society humanity have created lately. I welcome the day video games perish

ebert was right, video games was ruined by failed art majors and english majors trying to create "art" out of video games

>>718149486
Elon Musk actually wants you to think he puts hours and hours into Path of Exile (though he actually paid someone to do it for him). He brags about it, m8.

Maybe you're right, video games are for losers.

>>718149965
Yes.

>>718150161
which book allows you to control a character who has a moment of self awareness in the final chapter?
it is art and it cannot be done in any other medium than vidya
too bad nobody played the game except me

>>718150221
They are just look at the people who play games vs the ones who never touched this shit. Radical difference

>>718149832
>It's a great moment in the game but the mechanic itself absolutely falls under the "mechanics were clever, fun, annoying, well implemented, unique, interesting, strange" category.
All right, so they got an emotional response from you.
>But I didn't cry!
Maybe you also don't know what emotions are.

>>718150221
>path of exile
such a shitty game
why doesn't he play an actual good game

>>718150253
Literally any choose your own adventure book where the ending can just be the character breaking the 4th wall.

There isn't a single story that exists that can only be told within a video game.

>>718149856
>real stories are crafted
No, *real*, as in, true, stories just happen.

Video games are the exact same thing as architecture.
An engineering discipline intended for short-term consumption which can, if stars align, produce genuine art.

It also involves lots of copying, building by template, cutting corners from concept art to realisation, defacing with wide public support, et cetera.

Do you consider Stalinist commie blocks art? Fuck no.
A shopping mall is also just a fucking shopping mall. A Copy-pasted box with maximised shopping space.
But Notre Dame is a work of art. So is the Sydney Opera House or Tokyo Big Sight.

FF7 is a work of art. FF7 Remastered is a corporate construction job to build a by-the-numbers high rise in its place.

>>718150324
>There isn't a single story that exists that can only be told within a video game.
TF2

>>718142657 (OP)
woke games are not art indeed

>>718150176
Same
After getting a job I realized how much time I wasted on vidya
Nowadays I only care about sales and stocks or the occasional drama
The worst part is seeing others my age being much more successful, but oh well

>>718150324
if vidya isn't art then art doesn't exist. you're drawing arbitrary borders

>>718150272
Who are you quoting?
They? The mechanics?
The story/cutscenes/music did get emotional reactions from me, I honestly have no idea what you're implying.

Did you cry when you couldn't defeat a boss with a thin health bar?

>>718150176
The problem was with you, idiot.
>>718150375
>Nowadays I only care about sales and stocks or the occasional drama
Riveting. Such a rich and fulfilling life you swapped video games for.

>>718142657 (OP)
When someone lists off the utter peak of popularity in literary canon, you know that they don't have a clue what they're talking about. It's the quickest route to knowing that they just repeat what they've been told, and there's been an absolute stranglehold on what is and isn't art for a very, very long time. Believing these people to be the peak of anything is no different than listening to Lady Gaga at her peak popularity. They're pop culture. Star Wars. The Walking Dead. They're the most middle of the road, midwit bullshit possible. There's a reason that teachers, the very people that push these as the accepted list of artistic achievement, are the among the lowest IQ of graduating degrees at around 102. Even worse are the people that think memorizing quotes from famous literature makes them intelligent, or worse, interesting.

>>718142657 (OP)
I know Ebert retracted this statement, but did anyone else find it kind of sad and hilarious that this quote left game journos scrambling to find “the Citizen Kane of gaming”, which lead to them to blindly praising any big budget western game with a story focus?

It would be like if film critics praised films that were just text crawls because they were looking for “The Illiad of movies”.

>>718150370
Why is the plot of TF2 only tellable in video game form?

>>718150312
Because Elon Musk is a poser with shit taste, obviously

Video games are too technical to be an art. Art is subtle.

>>718150338
I think you're just hung up on semantics
crafted stories beat uncrafted stories 999/1000 times
homeworld doesn't have a story, end of story.

>>718150402
If checkers isn't art games aren't art.

>>718150324
>Narrator: he was unaware that choose your own adventure books are, in fact, games

>>718150552
You actually believe that?

>>718150436
>Riveting. Such a rich and fulfilling life you swapped video games for.
Yes
I spend time with friends and family

>>718150420
Yes, they, the mechanics. And the second part is quoting you. Pre-emptively, but I fucking nailed anyway.
My point is, indeed, that "emotion" doesn't mean "it made me cry because of how sad and poignant it was". I mean it made you feel *something*. And that's the entire point. Why would Kojima deliberately design a game that is frustrating and unfun to play? To convey something.
>I honestly have no idea what you're implying.
Yes, ain't that the truth.

>>718150375
>Nowadays I only care about sales and stocks
lol, what an upgrade!

>>718150518
>I think you're just hung up on semantics
This entire discussion is about semantics.
>homeworld doesn't have a story
Obviously wrong.

>>718143534
Peter and the Wolf is designed for younger audiences and it's art.

>>718150375
Funny enough, I keep having the opposite experience. The more I interact with the real world, the more I feel like I'm wasting my time with reality. But I could just be a freak of nature.

>>718150636
If you didn't before, that was a choice you made entirely apart from playing video games.

>>718144849
>what is the game about? nobody knows
You're a hacker who goes into cyberspace to destroy viruses and wake an all-knowing AI.

>>718150712
I never said games weren't art
come to think of it, not many kid's games even have music anywhere near as good as peter and the wolf

>>718150541
Which bit makes it not art? If I copy-paste Shakespeare's Macbeth into a txt file without any formatting is it still art?

>>718150503
Art often involves technical prowess. Even the act of writing requires understanding of basic principles like sentence structure and rhythm.

>>718150731
Your experience is the high IQ realization, while his dragon hoarding is the low IQ realization. Turns out he was a failed normgroid and fits in with the average.

>>718150731
You havent found your thing yet. But video games are cancer nonetheless

>>718150448
Feels dismissive, while I agree if someone only indulges in what’s good they have baseline understanding of a concept, but you can’t bring what’s good down in the face of retardation, something can be briefly pop culture and not be inherently shit

>>718142657 (OP)
It wasn't that long ago that film was considered to not be art.

>>718150960
The point isn't about the quality of any of it, but about people that only think in terms of what's in the accepted canon. It's not about the works, but the people that rigidly accept the prescribed opinions they likely wouldn't hold outside of being told beforehand that they're going to hold them. If your knowledge of anything could have come from any of a billion similar lists, it's worth being dismissed.

It annoys me when utter tripe gets called art.

>>718150838
Some technical ability is needed yes but in video games its 95% technicality

This is the goy, sorry "guy" who determines what is and isn't art. Please note that art by definition is something that rich people can use for money laundering

Sad news—/v/edditors proclaim video games are not art

>>718151243
Why is it useful to specify that he wasn't Jewish?

>>718150731
See? This is exactly why video games are so insidious and evil
They fuck up your values about what's important
You start to think a virtual world is more important than your real life

>>718151409
But you think there's something wrong with being a gentile?

>>718150476
Because it contains every single match of TF2 played as part of the canon.

>>718151353
Tell em brother

>>718142657 (OP)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interactive_art
eat a dick Ebert

>>718151492
But you could achieve the same in a single line of prose:

"The mercenaries fought endless repetitive battles in the same handful of locations for many years"

>>718151353
>he thinks small talk at work about what Jim's doing this weekend is actually fulfilling
>he thinks hearing about a woman's day and her drama with Lindsey is fulfilling

>>718151353
I was like that before video games anyways. If it wasn't video games, it'd be cartoons, if it wasn't that, it'd be fantasy books, if it wasn't that, I'd just daydream all day instead. The truth is, you can't force someone to care about reality.

>>718150503
art can't be defined as subtle, are you 10 years old?

>>718142657 (OP)
art is self expression of the world around you.

To the extent that Super Mario expresses the developer's ideas about the world around him, it is art. Which is to say, very little.
Contrary to that, a passion project indie game is likely going to be more "artistic" in that the creator has the final say on everything and the end result is more of a true expression of his ideas.

This is also why AI will never make art btw, pictures and music are not art in and of themself.

>>718151587
It’s not this mudane shit you just gave example of is nothing to be proud of.

You have to dig deeper in life

>>718151638
You're a lot more introspective than those weak-willed losers who blame video games for their shit, unfulfilling lives.

>>718142657 (OP)
>Woman faced fag says... sorry said thing
I don't care if video games are art I care if they are fun

>>718143271
faggot game

>>718151681
AI is incapable of making art on its own as it lacks sentience, but humans can use it as a tool to make art. There needs to be a clear and coherent vision behind something to qualify as art

>>718143383
nine sols is art

Art isn't even art

>>718151587
Caring about your coworkers and being interested in their life is not worthless
If you think playing with your electronic toys is more important then you have a serious mental illness

If you've ever liked a book, you've enjoyed art. If you've ever liked a movie, you've enjoyed art. I'll not presume you people ever go to museums or theatres, but regardless, if you ever do enjoy a painting or a play, you will have enjoyed art.

So why is the prospect of enjoying art in the form of a video game so threatening?

>>718151942
retard

>>718151942
You're in the wrong neighbourhood, normie

It's harder to make a game than any other artform, which is why there's so many low quality games, the potential is higher than any other artform though.

>>718150176
yea man, you're on the right track now, instead of playing games you waste your time seeking out people still enjoying them and shit on them, what a great life

>>718151681
Art isn't about expressing the world around you. It's conveying an idea through media.

AI itself doesn't make art because it is the process/tool of art, like a paintbrush. The image that is put out by AI, however, is art.

>>718152057
I’m just trying to warn others. Dont follow my footsteps. Yeah I enjoyed video games, but at what cost?

>>718152057
>yea man, you're on the right track now, instead of doing heroin you waste your time seeking out people still enjoying it and shit on them, what a great life

Games can't be art because they are all made with a profit motive and focus groups and marketing in mind. It's like expecting art out of Marvel movies.

>>718151879
Its a sliding scale. All tools are not the same.
The amount that you are ceding control of your vision to AI, is the amount that the final product ceases to be art.
Just like the amount you cede your vision to a producer who wants to make money, is also the amount your final work ceases to be art.

>>718152113
"Conveying an idea" is "expressing an idea of reality as you see it", theyre the same thing.

The image that AI puts out is just an image. An image is not necessarily art its just an image.

>>718151959
It’s not really. It’s just that vidya is the youngest of all artistic mediums, so there’s an element of insecurity involved. By legal definition, vidya is defined as an art form, and is subject to the same legal protections as other art forms.

Still, that insecurity is why you sometimes get embarrassing shit like game journos propping up movie games because they’re film school rejects who are desperate to be taken seriously by people in Hollywood.

>>718152123
The lesson here isn't "avoid video games", it's "don't avoid your life"

You're just like those people who speak of the evils of porn and how proud they are of never touching their dicks, but then it inevitably turns out they used to goon for hours every day and still relapse every couple of weeks

It's not the video games

>>718151992
>peron actually lives his life
>someone calls him retard for that
wow

>>718142864
>>718143031

>>718152356
double retard
go hang out with your coworkers, normalfag

>>718152406
have fun wasting your life on electronic games brain damaged manchild

>>718152221
If something is ENTIRELY AI made, I could see a case being made for it not being art, but if it’s a mostly human product where you just use AI for small things like producing some minor assets or upscaling, then I think it falls firmly into the “valid tool” category.

>>718152451
if you don't have any white children I suggest you watch your fucking tone while replying to me

>>718142657 (OP)
>art
That is good, because art has other purposes than entertainment. I don't want video games to be art, I want to have fun.

>>718152279
I think /v/ ironically does something similar by disparaging "movie games" as much as it does as a kneejerk reaction to the praise heaped upon them by gaming media. A lot of them are competently made with polished gameplay and they do often have some neat elements to them. /v/ (well, the pretentious part of /v/) likes to trot out the truism that if games are to be art, they need to embrace their interactivity, but they are blind to the many ways that video games, even "movie games", already do that. No, they're not the Citizen Kane's of gaming, but they don't have to be. The ending of TLoU where you have to shoot the doctors is a poignant use of gameplay, for example, even if the gameplay itself isn't very innovative.

>>718152604
Art can be fun too. Otherwise no one would make art.

>>718152569
Get them to do something in real life, dont let them play video games man

>>718142657 (OP)
You missed the part where art is subjective

>>718152604
>art has other purposes than entertainment
like what

>>718142657 (OP)

That faggot should have spent his last years cosplaying as Trap-Jaw!!!FACT!!!

>>718150324
>There isn't a single story that exists that can only be told within a video game.
There isn't a single story that exists that can only be told within a movie.
Thus movies are not and cannot be art.

>>718152662
video games are good in moderation thoughever

>>718145326
>Only moby dick or illiad are art
?

>>718152764
I agree

>>718142657 (OP)
>Consists of a whole library of art, like pictures, music, animation and a story
>Somehow isn't artistic

>>718152842
>take art
>turn it into mindless zombie game
>???
>its not art!

>>718142657 (OP)
Kojima is right: games are not art, they are toys because there is an expectation that playing them will be fun. Films can be thoroughly agonizing, dreadful things to endure but there is a particular cartharsis that can be reached by experiencing a film by passively watching it that is not attainable when you're actively interfacing with a game. Your brain is always looking for the positive neural feedback of 'play' when you arent trapped in a cutscene and that state of mind is not compatible with art. Now, some incredibly sucky games that we call walking sims could be considered art - if the degree of interactivity is so low that it is essentially the same as screening a film or walking through a virtual gallery, but true lovers of the medium will tell you those "arent real games". So, if we call games art, then the worst games suddenly become the best. The better approach to this conversation is to insist that toys are awesome and every bit as valuable as art. That teasing the mind through play and stimulating creativity through toys is as valuable as exploring the human condition through art.

>>718150324
>Video games are stories
Lmao look at this retarded nigga

>>718142657 (OP)
I already experience them (well some of them) as art.
You fucking jawless dead retard.

>>718152642
Oh, I agree, but I’m more criticising the critics who inflate the praise for these games in bad faith. You know they don’t actually care about pushing the medium forward. Instead, they just care about being seen as “mature and sophisticated”.

Also, while there are competently made “movie games” like TLOU or a lot of Kojima’s 6th gen work, there’s also ones like The Order 1886, where it was transparent even from the interviews that the creator really wanted to make a movie instead and made the game begrudgingly because they didn’t like the medium they were working in.

>>718152903
Even if that made those games non-art, all you've proven is that video games that aren't art exists, not that all video games aren't art.

>>718152935
Jesus Christ what a shit take
Must be art because it was awful to get through

>>718142657 (OP)
Yeah video games weren't art, but now they're not art + DEI infused thanks to journalists who insisted in order for video games to be art they need to have more DEI in them. So naturally megacorpos made high art which appeals to both gamers and art-loving journalists, like assassin's creed which now respects women. That's what every journalist wanted so they can't say "no actually that's not what I meant at all".

By the way, how are films doing?

>>718152935
There are hundreds of videogames that are not fun on purpose. Hell every other "art" follows canons and patterns that we find pleasant, specially cinema. How is that a valid argument?

>>718153027
>Must be art because it was awful to get through
kek

if a game has more than three people with creative input or input that changes how people view and interact with it it cannot be art

>>718151564
>The players experience and perspective in a multiplayer game doesn't matter.
You would need to write about every player, how they felt playing with their friends, in their role

>>718153224
Replace the word game with movie, or book, or play, or anything, really, and see how much sense it makes.

>>718143476
>a midwit who's never made anything known for having his jaw collapse

To be fair he wrote Beyond the Valley Of The Dolls, Russ Meyers best movie, and proclaimed George A. Romero's Dawn of the Dead as a masterpiece, so he was good in my book while I hope that fucking rat Siskel is burning in Hell.....

https://youtu.be/xLGTX-wMg4A?si=1QRHHD3KJt6qhf4T

!!!FACT!!!

>>718153272
>how they felt playing with their friends
That's extradiegetic, though.

>>718147979
chess is AN art (ie, a craft) but the process of playing chess is no more art than the process of walking through a museum
and therefore games are not art

>>718142657 (OP)
>Who is the Wagner, Bach, Chopin of games?
Jeremy Soule

>>718153321
Yes. Because, canonically, that is what TF2 is.
Have you not read the TF2 blog posts and the comics?

>>718153291
it makes perfect sense you fucking midwit
movies, books, and plays that are art depend on singular or as near to singular vision as is possible to be art
otherwise you get slop you fucking marvelbab

>>718153347
>chess is AN art (ie, a craft)
Oh, would you look at that, art is just the result of applying a craft, yet when two chess players apply their craft the result isn't art?

Art isn’t art.

>>718153314
I do think he had narrow taste. He loathed almost anything horror related, and he largely had a bias towards arthouse cinema.

He’s a mixed bag. I like some movies he liked, but I also like some he disliked.

>>718153447
art can be the result of applying a craft
just because you wrote this dogshit post doesn't make it shakespeare, moron

>>718153409
>movies, books, and plays that are art depend on singular or as near to singular vision as is possible to be art
lol
lmao, even

>>718153504
And just because you wrote this dogshit doesn't make Shakespeare not art

But then again, writing isn't a craft, it's a communication tool. Writing *well* is a craft.

>>718142657 (OP)
He's right. Games aren't art, they're toys, which are better and cooler.

>>718153409
An artist can hire a team to help see their vision through and help with the things they personally struggle with. The qualifier for it being art is that the one in charge of it has to have complete creative controls.


Good art isn’t a democracy; it’s a dictatorship.

>>718142657 (OP)
To fully experience a video game, you have to play it. Playing is something kids do, see the problem now? Adults don't play unless it's for money, so basically, vidya will never escape its stigma until society moves on from capitalism

>>718153347
>Painting is not art, it's just the process of putting paint on a canvas
You are dumb.
>>718153409
>Games doesn't have one director
You must be brown

>>718151942
Their lives are what your life is. They do the basics, go home, likely order food in as is the norm, talk about their day aka work, and then recount this information to others the following day. It's the lowest form of existence, possibly in the history of mankind. Do the same thing, every day, and recount this information of the things you did to anyone that will listen, until death.

>>718153616
So it all comes to that absurd American mentality of being productive?

>>718153502
>I do think he had narrow taste. He loathed almost anything horror related, and he largely had a bias towards arthouse cinema.
>He’s a mixed bag. I like some movies he liked, but I also like some he disliked.

Siskel in particular was a fucking piece of shit who launched a harassment campaign against Actress Betsy Palmer for playing Jason's Mom in Friday the 13th and absolutely fucking hated that series overall!!!FACT!!!

>>718152113
>Art isn't about expressing the world around you. It's conveying an idea through media.
typically art is an expression of a person's inner world in response to the outer world through a medium where the image/text/concept/expression/idea can be shared with others for common understanding or conversation

if you want to share the beauty of the natural world you see or imagine to others, you can paint it, take a photo
or you can write shaders to replicate the colors of a beautiful sky

>>718153616
>Sixtine chapel it's not art
Ok fag

>>718153027
Yes, art is supposed to be challenging. Europeans remember this, americans have forgotten it in a haze of sterile, safe marvel slop

>>718152113
>It's conveying an idea through media.
Like the idea of the world around you?

>>718152279
objectively it is still a very infantile artform
has metal gear solid really changed anyone's entire life by playing it?
it's like comparing gi joe figurines to michaelangelo's david

is this the best videogames can do?

>>718152792
they are examples of great art
videogames are impressive but still none of the stories really compare with real literature

just as comic books don't compare to the mona lisa

>>718153965
Painting hasn't changed anyone's entire life either. It's just a picture, a still image, something you look at once and go "huh, that's neat."

>>718153965
Has the Mona Lisa actually changed anyone’s life by looking upon it?

>>718153151
The artistic merit of plenty of cinema, particularly television, is constantly questioned. See: Martin Scorcese comparing marvel movies to theme park rides. What games are you referring to? Even something like a tense, carefully balanced survival horror game that may not seem "fun" is driven by "play", bringing it closer to toy staus than art.

>>718142657 (OP)
>Are videogames just glorified toys?
Not even glorified. They're literally just toys.

>>718153965
If art changes your life, your not a fully formed person to begin with.

>>718153965
Be honest, has Michelangelo's David changed your life?

>>718153965
>I cannot appreciate videogames, therefore they are not art
How is not an art form? Are Chaplin movies not considered art because they were produced early on cinema story? What kind of argument is that?

>>718153791
yeah but that's hardly an american only thing

>>718148249
how is Europa Universalis like a movie?
how is Against the Storm like a movie?
how is Hollow Knight like a movie?
how is Elden Ring like a movie?
don't get me wrong, there are games that try to be movies, but it's not what most people are playing, they're just a genre

>>718154108
See, here’s the thing, your dichotomy has no grounding other than your own insistence. Why is interactivity intrinsically mutually exclusive with art? If it is because it is a waste of time, then nothing is art. Nothing that isn’t a professional endeavor can ever be art.

>>718154108
>Art is super srs
>No playfulness allowed

>>718154065
That's were you are wrong, videogames are not stories. It's an interactive medium. If you can get the same experience translating a videogame into a movie or a book then it's not a videogame to begin with.

>>718153383
I would add Nobuo Uematsu among the great gaming composers also. Even if his work is derivative at times, he set the standard for an entire genre of game scores.

>>718154106
I contemplated my entire existence by gazing upon it

>>718154143
yes

>>718154149
I appreciate games, but somehow I don't think any of our games are truly masterpiece tier when compared to other great artworks

>>718154206
Because the "interactivity" is play.

>>718142657 (OP)
Didn't he like Cosmology of Kyoto

>>718154108
>Martin Scorcese comparing marvel movies to theme park rides
most games qualify as interactive rides as well

>>718154267
>videogames are not stories
bro, you are so close. can thing things just be their own things? i just want games to be games.

>>718154349
Did you? Why? What property of the Mona Lisa actually begets contemplativeness?

This thread isn’t art and you will never be artists

>>718154108
>Even something like a tense, carefully balanced survival horror game that may not seem "fun" is driven by "play", bringing it closer to toy staus than art.
Painting a canvas is fun for the artist, therefore it's not art? Why does fun invalidates art? you know art and fun are both subjective therms right? If a game it's not fun it's art?

>>718154294
yes definitely, that guy had arguably more cinematic soundtracks than any other video game composer

>>718142657 (OP)
Art died a long time ago.

>>718154402
Why is that bad? Why is “Play” more intinsically unartistic than passing time be reading a great novel or watching a movie?

>>718146013
That's complete bullshit the same way we play sports from generations ago. Even if games aren't art, they're sticking around and millenia from now motherfuckers will still be playing Tetris.

>>718149743
>>718085470

>>718108548
>>718131742
>>718142521
>>718144530
>>718029563

>>718154160
It actually is.

>>718154267
>videogames are not stories.
False
>It's an interactive medium.
Yes, but so what?
>. If you can get the same experience translating a videogame into a movie or a book then it's not a videogame to begin with.
By definition, you wouldn't. If it was the same experience as a movie then it was a movie. If it was the same experience as a book, it was a book.

>>718142657 (OP)
Every aspect of a videogame can be art except for the actual gameplay

>>718154716
Why?

>>718154461
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjWd9a8Ck8U

>>718154206
It is not the interactivity. Plays are interactive, in the sense that there is communication between audience and performer. It is the expectation of 'play' that makes a videogame a toy. I said 'fun' earlier but that proved suboptimal to my point. There is a certain level of interactive feedbak occuring between the game and the player that is expected and celebrated in good games.

>>718142657 (OP)
This is a debate I no longer feel invested in having. Are they toys ? If you want to describe them so simply or doing it out of discomfort in your hobby then yes I suppose.

>>718154349
That's why art is subjective. I am a painter myself and I think Mona Lisa is not art. Just a uninspired commissioned work that got popular in recent years for money laundry purposes.
You can have your opinion but there is nothing preventing games from being art. Masterpieces are also subjective in case you didn't know

>>718142756
The greatest film critic to ever live. Puts modern film journos to shame.

>>718154540
>Why is “Play” more intrinsically unartistic than passing time
they hate Pollock because they need to believe the creation is a product of the conscious, yet a long comes Pollock proving that the unconscious can make art.

>>718142657 (OP)
hideo kojima, todd howard, 2000s bioware, peter molyneux, warren spector, john carmack, john romero, gabe newell, markus persson etc. etc. you can pretty much just fill the name of studios in here. a game studio is like an orchestra and composer in one organization.

>>718154450
That's what I said? Videogames are not only stories. If they are only stories they are not videogames

>>718154294
I would actually consider Uematsu to be one of the greatest composers of all time period. He’s Beethoven level.

>physical expressions like dance or martial arts is considered art
>physical expressions like painting or composing is considered art
>physical expressions like acting and performing is considered art
>video games that contain all of these physical expressions is NOT ART BECAUSE IT'S JUST NOT OKAY???????

>>718154751
Yeah, I still don’t understand your point in the least. Why is “Play” unartistic, why is feedback from the work anti-art? Is it because the work expects to be interacted with in a certain way? All art comes with expectations of the audience, is a narrative twist not for the benefit of the audience?

>>718154751
You've just pushed the problem ahead. Why is a "toy" not art?

>>718154716
>the actual gameplay
oh yes i forgot about speedrunning and various challenge modes, thats art too. you could theoretically also call e-sports and arts competition instead. it would work. similar to how dance performances are considered art.

>>718154808
name 3 games that you think will be remembered by future generations like great masterpieces hundreds of years ago?
there's more substance in the average ancient greek play than videogame plots

Call of Duty can be considered art, it's modern propaganda promoting US patriotism.

>>718154618
>By definition, you wouldn't. If it was the same experience as a movie then it was a movie. If it was the same experience as a book, it was a book.
By definition, you can put a ebook as a game, and it will still be an ebook and not a game. You can't call Netflix a game platform.

>>718154932
not great art

>>718155005
Silent Hill 2
Metal Gear Solid 2
Final Fantasy VII

>>718154489
Let me be clear: fun does not invalidate art, an expectation of 'play' brings a piece of media closer to toy status than art. When I say 'play', I mean the engineering concept of clearance between two mechanisms; like the articulating limbs of an action figure.

>>718155005
Tetris, Pac-man, Resident Evil 4.
>but all of those stories suck
And they’ll be remembered.

>>718155081
And that's what you decide? Right?
Or is it Roger Ebert? Someone who has never played a Persona game?

>>718155052
>By definition, you can put a ebook as a game, and it will still be an ebook and not a game.
So what will I have actually done to "put an ebook as a game"?

I don't even know which side of this debate you're on at this point

>>718155084
>Metal Gear Solid 2
lolololol

>>718099009
>>718056591

>>718155005
>there's more substance in the average ancient greek play than videogame plots
absolutely nobody does ancient greek theatre anymore, its fully dead. the stories are still there, but only because greece was kind of a first mover in writing it all down and distributing it.

>>718155107
I still don’t understand why toys aren’t art.

>>718155168
>no
>fucking
>argument
Typical brown hands

>>718154540
ITS NOT! Thats the point I'm trying to make. This is the best out for gamers in this conversation, because trying to bring games closer to art gives us boring walking sim moviegame slop. Embrace play as expression.

>>718155143
>RE4
it's a great game
but that's like saying predator won an oscar for best film

>>718155005
I honestly don't know if anything produced today will be remembered hundreds of years from now. Everything is mass-produced, commodified, and we are saturated. Nothing stands out.

But I suppose Tetris, Pong, and Super Mario Bros. are three titles that have historical significance.

>the single largest industry for the artistic medium in the entire world
>NOOOOOO IT'S NOT ART IT'S TOYS!!!!!
Authors, painters, and musicians make games.
Games are art.

>>718155150
>never played a Persona game?
I'd very much like to remain heterosexual

>>718155168
The game’s 24 years old, and is arguably more relevant now than it was at its release. That’s a ridiculous amount of mileage already.

>>718155005
>games that you think will be remembered by future generations like great masterpieces hundreds of years ago?
Any videogame with high cultural impact on the future society, the contents are not relevant. Are you implying that if it's not remembered by future generations it's not a masterpiece?

>there's more substance in the average ancient greek play than videogame plots
False, and again, videogames are not plays. Stop judging it's value by the fucking plots. Greek plays are terrible games

>>718155336
>has literally never played a Persona game in his life
Persona is extremely horny towards teenage girls.
You can form harems.

>>718155202
the whole "ancient shit is the gold standard" or romanticizing of it is due to the Anchoring bias. These retards believe because it was the first that it has to be the best against which all else is measured

>>718142657 (OP)
Film isn't art either. We all intuitively know that acting is one of the lowest forms of talent, our ancestors all knew it and we would do good to honor them in this aspect. I mean imagine if you could be the greatest athlete of all time or the greatest musician of all time... and now contrast that with the option of being the greatest actor of all time. lmao.
Speaking of greatest actors, this anecdote is marlon brando's wikipedia page as an example of his brilliance
>Adler used to recount that, when teaching Brando, she had instructed the class to act like chickens, and added that a nuclear bomb was about to fall on them. Most of the class clucked and ran around wildly, but Brando sat calmly and pretended to lay an egg. Asked by Adler why he had chosen to react this way, he said, "I'm a chicken—what do I know about bombs?"
WOW BRAVO. GENIUS

>>718155272
You wanted what would be remembered, not what is the most artistically significant. Fucking STAR WARS will probably be remembered, and those movies are nothing to be celebrated.

>>718155202
>absolutely nobody does ancient greek theatre anymore
my point is the characters in them are still far more fleshed out and nuanced than the cardboard cutouts in videogame stories

>>718154503
>>718154907
And lets not forget: he's self taught. Absolute legend

Honestly just wait for all these old farts to die and this won't really be a discussion anymore. The discussion isn't about the philosophy of art, this is purely a question of cultural prestige.

I hate old people.

>>718155443
>this is purely a question of cultural prestige
/thread

>>718142657 (OP)
the push to make videogames art is how we got disco elysium, tlou and dear esther

It's easy to mock games journos' seemingly desperate need for validation but it's hard not to sympathise with them when you see the masses of gamers furiously insisting that games can't be art, mustn't be art, and should not aspire to be anything more than the tritest of time-wasters.

>>718142657 (OP)
>It's another movie guy seething about hollywood becoming irrelevant while gaming overtaking movies as the biggest medium

>>718155107
Your point? You know that painting, music and movies as well as all arts involve a level of engineering right?

>>718155484
Haha yeah, Silent Hill 2 is a total joke amirite?
MGS? Who plays that?
There is nothing artistic about designing gameplay systems. There is no artistic merit to Final Fight.
Yeah, I'm a big thinker.

>>718155418
Star Wars (at least the 6 movies Lucas was involved in) is basically a more modern version of a Greek epic, so its a valid artistic cultural touch stone and will be rightly remembered.

>>718155580
only hipsters care about labels because it appeals to their need to set themselves apart from the masses

>>718155161
Videogames are fundamentally different that any other classic medium. It's pointless to measure their quality based on classic medium attributes.

>>718155642
There is no setting apart from the masses you dumb fuck.
Gaming is the largest entertainment industry in the world.
It's an industry built on top of the arts as well as science and technology.

>>718155348
it is art due to some of the unconventional game design and story quirkiness
but it's not a good game, the story is not amazing, it's not going in the museum lol...

>>718155752
Tetris has no story and is in a museum.

>>718155498
Journos were right in the wrong way. We SHOULD be encouraging games to be deeper and more ambitious as a medium, but their idea of making games deeper was “add DEI policies”.

>>718155379
if the plot is infantile, it won't be remembered
same reason comic books are not literature

>>718155268
Art and play are not exclusive retard. You idea of art is quite shortsighted

>>718155752
>this Japanese video game accurately predicted the future of digital information control in ways nobody could have possibly imagined, while also offering the audience succinct social commentary and extremely forward thinking meta-narrative story design that communicates to the player directly a series of themes more so than it communicates a series of events
>hehe, it's not museum worthy though
>this African carved idol of a fat woman? Instant museum exhibit

>>718155814
Their definitions of “deeper and more ambitious” games are universally “Write a better story”. They have no respect for gameplay.

>>718146048
>it is a timeless game with perfect mechanics, but is there anything profound or deep about it?

Jackson Pollock's No.5 is a timeless piece with perfect colour theory, but is there anything profound or deep about it?

>>718155827
A lot of capeshit characters have been remembered for more than half a century because they represent strong archetypes. It’s the stories themselves that faded into obscurity.

>>718155402
it's not that it was first
it's that it did so many things really well back then and it still holds up today and eclipses today's works
there is a lot of depth to them, can't say the same for videogame "stories"
press F to pay respects just trivialises humanity to a button press
and thats what videogames are, trivial activities with no real significance or meaning

>>718155827
Im not gonna write the same again, the plot being infantile by your standards or it being remembered have nothing to do with it being a masterpiece or not. And comic books are literature like it or not.

>>718155827
Are we pretending that most of our longest lasting stories aren’t infantile? POWER MAN, born of the gods, punches the shit out of BIG MONSTER. CLEVER MAN, blessed by the gods, tricks BIG MONSTER. GOD, horny, fucks the shit out of some attractive woman.

>>718154937
Play conflicts with art, because it does not allow for absolute clarity on behalf of the artist's expression. If an artist makes a he-man action figure as an expression of peak male physicality and the domineering spirit of the western man and gives it to me and I bend him into an embarassing goatse pose, I have damaged his artistic expression through play.
>>718154948
That is why toys are not art, because the expression ultimately falls upon the player. Indeed, a funko pop figure sealed in its packaging, incapable of being played with, has more artistic merit than the finest action figure. If I seem like I'm being a cunt about this - good! The world of art is filled with egomaniacs and elitist gatekeepers. It does not benefit our beloved medium to supplicate these people for art status. The cultural shift should revolve around lifting play to the status of art, not forcing art to accomodate play.

>>718155953
Gameplay and story are not mutually exclusive

>>718155953
Because a lot of them are wannabe film critics who don’t understand there’s more to ANY medium than just writing.

I feel a lot of people can’t comprehend there’s idea that there’s such a thing as movies and books that have no story, and focus on other aspects.

>>718156052
That’s asinine, that’s like saying making a suboptimal move in chess destroys the artistic merit of the game. You haven’t damaged anything, you’ve just made new art within the confines of what you’ve been given.

This thread is full of niggers that cannot comprehend that the value of a game doesn't come from the fucking story. This retards think chess or music cannot be art somehow

>>718156093
No, but they never want more depth in gameplay or better gameplay-story interplay, they just want to be more sad about video games. They never have any respect for gameplay.

>>718142657 (OP)
Is MS Paint art? Or Adobe creative software? That's what a lot of videogames feel like.
>Player freedom bro, choose what you want to do bro.

>>718156052
>If an artist makes a he-man action figure as an expression of peak male physicality and the domineering spirit of the western man and gives it to me and I bend him into an embarassing goatse pose, I have damaged his artistic expression through play.
You mean you have created found art.
>That is why toys are not art, because the expression ultimately falls upon the player.
You say this of video games, in which the player's possibilities for expression are limited to precisely what the developer intends?
>The world of art is filled with egomaniacs and elitist gatekeepers. It does not benefit our beloved medium to supplicate these people for art status.
Well good thing neither they nor you has any say in it.

>>718155990
comic book stuff will never be studied in schools lol

>>718155949
not amazing
nobody will be writing essays on it
sorry bro

>predicted the future of digital information control in ways nobody could have possibly imagined
speak for yourself
nothing about today is a surprise to me

>>718156237
Neither does /v/ desu

>>718156052
>If I watch a movie at low res it's not art
Kek, lmao even. Art it's not immutable, you know Mona Lisa was not yellowish when it was created right?
And the hole point of the interactive medium is the use of it, that's the job of game designers

video gamer logic

a mcdonald's has art, it has a lot of artistic people design the interiors, they paint the walls, the graphic artists design the menu, the photography of the food items

is a mcdonalds an art? o wait maybe it doesn't have jewish propaganda shocked in your face so yeah might not be art

>>718155959
no5 is shit art

>>718156320
Both those things already have people writing essays on it. You can even study manga and anime in some colleges.

>>718156402
Yes? Architecture is art, that mcdonalds is art. Art can be pedestrian and still be art.

>>718156052
Art status has nothing to do with anyone. Some people saying this or that it's not art doesn't make it art or not art. Wtf you talking about, again art is subjective

>>718155949
demolition man predicted the future far more accurately than mgs2 and earlier too
will it be remembered as the greatest film ever made?
even though I love the film, the answer is NO

you have a low quality bar

>>718142657 (OP)
lol

>>718156320
>comic book stuff will never be studied in schools lol
Just in universities

>>718156428
>You can even study manga and anime in some colleges.
joke degree
just like the minecraft architecture one
this whole civilzation is already goddam doomed

>>718156402
If you're arguing that the walls are art, the menu is art, the stock photos are art... I see no reason to exclude the building

>>718156561
Sorry fag, but games have 3000x times more cultural impact that movies. Cope

>>718156675
Art degrees are joke degrees to begin with.

>>718156402
Film is not art "because it includes theatre plus music plus photography", it's its own medium, and independently art. Hell, theatre and music also include writing.

>>718156250
>Is MS Paint art?
Yes.

Several people are typing...

>>718156250
>Is MS Paint art?
By definition: yes.

>>718156747
videogames are a stunted medium
out of 55 different emotions
https://www.healthline.com/health/list-of-emotions
videogames only focus on 5 of them

which is why gamers end up growing into massive npc spergs who can't detect emotions because they've never interacted with a human or touched a boob

>>718157232
That's patently false tho