Thread 718162854

I hate Thor as much as anybody else, but he actually has a point (and you don't need qualifications to understand it, just be a gamer). He just did not know how to articulate it because he is not very smart.

He who is sovereign is who decides the exceptions, and SKG is just begging to give governments power of videogames.

>existing games who employ the live service method cannot be retroactively changed to fit new legislation (and laws cannot act retroarctively), so all appeals from SKG to save Ubisoft and EA games are rendered useless
>likewise, signed terms of use contracts (which predict server shutdown from the contractor's side) by users cannot be invalidated, and you most likely signed one of these when you booted your game
>the effect of this is that existing live services can continue endlessly while the market is closed off to future competitors, so expect more thirty years of FF14, WoW and Guild Wars domination
>SKG's forceful commitment that every game must run offline increases the risk of piracy (loss of profit) while raising costs of production
>additional legislation that makes making certain type of games prohibitive and threaten to harm existing live services (and potential new business practices

This entire thing is silly.

Wow Thor, nice nice nice

>>718162854 (OP)
sorry jason, first answer counts

>>718162854 (OP)
>NOOOOO THINK ABOUT THE POOR LIVE SERVICE GAMES THEY DIDNDU NUTHING
I am thinking about them, which is why I support SKG

>>718162854 (OP)
They talked as if he is some kind of devil that almost stopped them single handedly

>>718162854 (OP)
It’s just entitled and uneducated gamers whining. Don’t worry about it

>>718162854 (OP)
>>the effect of this is that existing live services can continue endlessly while the market is closed off to future competitors, so expect more thirty years of FF14, WoW and Guild Wars domination
this doesn't make any sense, new live service games can still be made they just need to let players host their own servers when the offical ones are taken down
>>SKG's forceful commitment that every game must run offline increases the risk of piracy (loss of profit) while raising costs of production
oh I see you are simply baiting
carry on

>existing games who employ the live service method cannot be retroactively changed to fit new legislation (and laws cannot act retroarctively
>likewise, signed terms of use contracts (which predict server shutdown from the contractor's side) by users cannot be invalidated, and you most likely signed one of these when you booted your game
Good thing the concept of ownership already existed, before the creation of video games.
>the effect of this is that existing live services can continue endlessly while the market is closed off to future competitors, so expect more thirty years of FF14, WoW and Guild Wars domination
That's really low IQ speculation
>SKG's forceful commitment that every game must run offline increases the risk of piracy (loss of profit) while raising costs of production
SKG doesn't force online games to run offline. The cheapest no-brainer move by developers is to just release server tools or if they want to do things even cheaper: release the source code, then their obligation is fulfilled

>additional legislation that makes making certain type of games prohibitive and threaten to harm existing live services (and potential new business practices
Yes, hopefully all micro-transactions in video games will be made illegal in Europe. I would definitely be in favor of that.

>>718162854 (OP)
>>existing games who employ the live service method cannot be retroactively changed to fit new legislation (and laws cannot act retroarctively), so all appeals from SKG to save Ubisoft and EA games are rendered useless
We've known this from the start, the point is to save future games
>>likewise, signed terms of use contracts (which predict server shutdown from the contractor's side) by users cannot be invalidated, and you most likely signed one of these when you booted your game
we also know this, but eulas aren't supposed to be used like this, it's not legal to fuck your customer just cause they agreed to a eula, cases are decided individually
>>the effect of this is that existing live services can continue endlessly while the market is closed off to future competitors, so expect more thirty years of FF14, WoW and Guild Wars domination
These are dominating anyway I don't see how this changes anything, plus you didn't even mention how SKG wouldn't effect sub MMOs, since those are justifiably services, we've known this
>>SKG's forceful commitment that every game must run offline increases the risk of piracy (loss of profit) while raising costs of production
Yeah, if you can't fuck your customer with DRM and just kill their game piracy oppourtunity increases, and the cost increase would be minimal if it was already worked into the plan for the game, again, this is to help protect FUTURE GAMES, you have to assume those costs would be already accounted for
>>additional legislation that makes making certain type of games prohibitive and threaten to harm existing live services (and potential new business practices
>NOOOO MY ""INOVATIVE"" GAME WHERE YOU BUY IT AND I TAKE IT AWAY FROM YOU IN A MONTH AAAIIIIIIEEEEEEEE

>>718162854 (OP)
I don't believe you are not figtree , say you don't sexually feel anything about anthropomorphic ferrets and we can discuss it properly

>>718162854 (OP)
>laws cannot act retroarctively
Yes they can. E.g. the EU applied Directive 2019/770 on the sale of digital content and services to existing contracts where the content purchased under contract was still in active supply.

>>718162854 (OP)
>existing games who employ the live service method cannot be retroactively changed to fit new legislation (and laws cannot act retroarctively), so all appeals from SKG to save Ubisoft and EA games are rendered useless
Yeah. No shit. If someone breaks the new law before it was ever established that person doesn't get reprimanded for it. Nobody is advocating for old game now defunct games to make them offline versions of themselves.

>likewise, signed terms of use contracts (which predict server shutdown from the contractor's side) by users cannot be invalidated, and you most likely signed one of these when you booted your game

If a Law is passed that they must make their game functional after end of service than those contracts that you unwittingly signed are now void.

>the effect of this is that existing live services can continue endlessly while the market is closed off to future competitors, so expect more thirty years of FF14, WoW and Guild Wars domination

That will continue with or without SKG.

>SKG's forceful commitment that every game must run offline increases the risk of piracy (loss of profit) while raising costs of production
>Loss of profit
On a game you won't make anymore money on because you shut it down?
>raising costs of production
On a game you already finished making?

>additional legislation that makes making certain type of games prohibitive and threaten to harm existing live services (and potential new business practices

So just the Gambling games in disguise will get fucked over. I've yet to see a downside.

@grok summarize this in one sentence

>>718163118
You don't harm live services by endorsing SKG, you just guarantee that the costs to make new games employing this business model becomes so prohibitive that only existing live services get to stay in business.

You are basically killing the entire market for MMOs and games with MMO characteristics.

>>718163058
Thor really played the role of the heel in a wrestling storyline. People are endorshing this bullshit mostly to spite him more than anything.

The problem isn't that he opposed SKG, it is just that he was so abrasive in it that everyone sided against him. He played into Ross's hand perfectly, especially when he said 'I'll tell everyone to oppose it. You can eat my whole ass. Cry me a river.'

>>718162854 (OP)
I need you to realize anon.
Most Live Service Games are Free.
That means users never bought a game, just in game currency.
That they spent.
That means SKG doesn't fucking apply to them.

Fuck off jason

>>718162854 (OP)
>Referring to this nepo gutter trash as """Thor"""
This is how you know you're about to read the dumbest shit possible.

>>718162854 (OP)
>likewise, signed terms of use contracts (which predict server shutdown from the contractor's side) by users cannot be invalidated
Yes they can. See EU Directive 1993/13 on unfair contract terms.
Any non-individually negotiated term of contract that introduces a notable imbalance in rights and obligations under contract to the detriment of the consumer may be deemed an unfair term of contract. Unfair terms of contract may not bind consumers - i.e. in jurisdictions where this is possible you can destroy them yourself by letting the other party to contract know that you're doing so because the term is unfair; and in others you can get a court to annul the particular term.
Note also that this directive contains an annex holding a non-exhaustive list of terms of contract that are always to be deemed unfair, which among them also count:

> terms which have the object or effect of [..]
> (c) making an agreement binding on the consumer whereas provision of services by the seller or supplier is subject to a condition whose realization depends on his own will alone;

If additional terms of use hold a clause which states the publisher is allowed to pull the plug of their volition, then it voids the ability of the entire agreement to be binding on the consumer and you can basically ignore the entire thing.

>>718162854 (OP)
It takes genuinely zero fucking work to disable all superfluous passive online content like leaderboards, disabling online completely just requires shutting off the servers and blanking out the multiplayer option, and then updating singleplayer content to just run as normal. It's a week's worth of week by one person at best. But do keep insisting The Crew's 20 hour singleplayer mode was impossible to make work offline.

>>718163310
>>718163343
>>718163331
Then again, you are INCREASING COSTS OF PRODUCTION. You are punishing developers for making games like these, and you are blocking off the market to any potential games that employ this live service method.

>>718163507
This is just terrible and worsens my point. If an SKG policy is passed retroactively, devs might as well just abandon the EU market altogether because at any point, some mad EU regulator might decide that their game is ripping off consumers who voluntarily signed terms of use contracts.

>>718163642
Can't you obviously understand what you yourself are stating, or are you purposefully ignoring the implications that additional regulation will only making competition in the market more restrictive. "Oh, but there is no competition", that is capitalism for you, not a fault of live services.

You won't fuck over your target companies. You'll fuck over yourself, then watch how people will just inevitably abandon the existing live service games for new live services from the chinese and the other 3rd-world countries who have no law.

Thinking of the producers in this issue is NOT being a shill, it is actually thinking on the basic question, 'why would anyone want to continue working when this draconian law passes?'

Any real legislation passed on SKG's demands would have to consider this, and since SKG's demands are retarded, any real legislation would need to be so gutted from the idiocy as to become completely irrecognizable.

>>718164086
*week's worth of work

>>718164092
>Then again, you are INCREASING COSTS OF PRODUCTION. You are punishing developers for making games like these, and you are blocking off the market to any potential games that employ this live service method.
Dude, I already support SKG, you don't need to sell it to me.

>>718162854 (OP)
The game studio produced X number of files (game files, and server files), all you have to do, is give the players ALL the files, instead of just half of em.
The industry hates this idea because they want in the future to give the players ZERO files of the game, and be able to shut it down whatever they want and erase the game completely from the existence, so they don't have to make better games down the line.
It's the whole point of shit like stadia.

So just get the fuck out of here and go sit on your ferret fucking watching cuckchair or something.

>>718162854 (OP)
I don't care. I just want companies like Ubishit, EA, M&, Snoy, and Nintendo to be made miserable. Whatever furthers that goal is worth it.

>>718162854 (OP)
>additional legislation that makes making certain type of games prohibitive and threaten to harm existing live services (and potential new business practices
Oh that's not going to be a problem for much longer anyway. Live service games are already dead men walking.
The EU Commission's recently published guidance document on the protection of minors online under Digital Services Act article 28, already states that basically all means used to make live service GaaS profitable are predatory and cannot be offered to minors. So either GaaS removes the things that makes them profitable, or keeps them - but all games have to be rated 18+. And in the future will require age verification.

>>718162854 (OP)
>>718162854 (OP)
Has Jason ever had sex?

>I hate Thor as much as anybody else.
No-no, it's "I hate Thor as much as anybody else NOW. A month ago I was subscribed and working on my own video game".

Bruh, people really wouldn't have cared so much about the mana gem thing if you'd just not been so damn hostile first. If you hadn't been so hostile 'Grrrr whose fault is it!' You wouldn't need to have walked it back screaming how none of it was your fault. Assholes beget assholes. By acting like an asshole to some random player in your raid, you put yourself in a no win situation when it turned out the player was you.

Just my advice.

>>718164252
With humans?

>>718163674
>Grok: "OP is a faggot."

>>718164252
He worked at Blizzard he had to have raped or been raped

>>718162854 (OP)
>I hate Thor as much as anybody else, but he actually has a point
didnt read anymore of your dogshit thread. kys.

I dont really give a shit. i only play single player games so I am happy to see any online shit cost more money for the publishers. Also that twitch guy is a smug retard so I like to see him suffer.

>>718164092
lol, retarded nigger

>>718163937
This is literal communism and could only pass in the gay utopia of Europe where no one works and everybody just smokes weed and complain.

>>718164086
>wah, why won't people work for free and retroactively change their existing failed game

The end result of legislation based on SKG will be the death of any online functionality in games because once you implement them, you need to keep them on forever.

Then gamers will complain that they can't access multiplayer anymore, and cry about the good old days.

I am in favor of some form of game archivism because games are, after all, a work of art by many people working together. But SKG is not it, it is just stretching government power and protecting the same big companies that they want to protect consumers from. It is idiotic and hampers exactly the devs who cannot protect themselves, the small guys.

>>718163709
>That means SKG doesn't fucking apply to them.
It applies to the ingame purchased content.
In fact, current legislation already applies to that.

See the guidance document on use of virtual currency and ingame purchases in videogames:
https://commission.europa.eu/document/8af13e88-6540-436c-b137-9853e7fe866a_en

Concretely: read principle 6.

>>718162854 (OP)
wow you are just assuming a lot of shit. SKG is just about removing that line in the Terms of Service that says "We can remove this game from your library whenever we want, get fucked"
that's it

>>718164185
>>718164441
These. What's important is that those I don't like be made to suffer.

>>718163674
OP needs to buy an ad

>>718164484
lmao you can stop baiting mein nigger. we're reaching tryhard territory

>>718162854 (OP)
Just let the players run their own servers man..... and for games that are single player and never should of needed to be online in the first place.....patch out the Denuvo and let them run offline.

Why does the solution seem so simple?

>>718162854 (OP)
>I hate Thor as much as anybody else, but he actually has a point
Well, okay - yes.
He did have that garden gnome.
But that was really more of a cone than a point.

Nice golem thread. Shalom

>>718164092
>you are blocking off the market
Unless you can show people real numbers about how much this would cost, it's just a bullshit hypothetical that was already called out by multiple developers

>>718162854 (OP)
>releasing server software or source code to enable people to run private servers will kill games
Good.

>>718163676
>you just guarantee that the costs to make new games employing this business model becomes so prohibitive that only existing live services get to stay in business.
>only affects live shartvice games
>live shartvice games will be prohibitively more expensive
>somehow this means there will me MORE Live shartvice games
lol
lmao
made me reply, here's a second (you)

>>718162854 (OP)
But seriously, what is this dude's problem?

>>718162854 (OP)
>He just did not know how to articulate it because he is not very smart.
Hey Fagtree
Is that what you were doing for 11 months when you would come on to celebrate how SKG failed, it seemingly living rent free in your head for months right up until it completely flipped on you?

>>718164484
>The end result of legislation based on SKG will be the death of any online functionality
Glorious. Finally a return to good single player and couch coop experiences.
Death to online.

Capitalism consists of sellers and buyers, producers and consumers.
The interests of the consumer are just as important as those of the producer.
If producers are acting in bad faith, that consumers have a right to defend their own interests.

>>718162854 (OP)
Star Wars Galaxies........when you're done making money off your game, just give it to the community. They'll take it from there

>>718164487
I read it. It is the dumbest thing ever made to sound smart. It is the living proof that legislators just want to appease constituents rather than actually think about the consequences of the law being passed. People like Ross will cry about consumer protection being non-existant in America, then they will praise laws that only benefit big business and keep competition away.

>>718164764
>Death to online
This. They flooded my country with third worlders and the last thing I want to do is be forced to play vidya with them too. Go back to couch coop so my vidya time can be whites only again.

>>718163676
>You are basically killing the entire market for MMOs and games with MMO characteristics
You don't need to sell it to me anymore, I had it signed August last year.

>>718162854 (OP)
You forgot the most important one. It only affects shit games either way.

>>718164747
I think he has a mental illness that stop him from ever admitting he's wrong, like something he could take pills to fix and all.

>>718162854 (OP)
You had a mana potion.

>>718162854 (OP)
Wow good job revealing that you know nothing about SKG

>>718164468
this. you never own any of your games to begin with, and now you want a free lifetime pass.

>>718164904
>It is the dumbest thing ever made to sound smart.
That's impossible.
Because that's what I'm replying to.

>>718164487
Anon, that says terms should be in plain English, cannot take away rights, and must not give carte blanche to take away the product/feature purchased with in-game currency.

Since you never bought the game in the first place, you don't have rights to the game. They never took your right for the in game waifu skin, they just took the game that you didn't pay for

>>718162854 (OP)
>the effect of this is that existing live services can continue endlessly
>the games that are not required to be supported end up being supported
This is a good thing.
It doesn't close off new games. Players will get bored of old games even with updates.

>>718162854 (OP)
man, do you have such deep insight from your time working at blizzard? Did you get to fuck farrets in your time at blizzard?

Eat shit. Piracy is a service problem, if a game is good people will buy it. Games industry was fine well before service games existed.

>no new competitors for service games
who fucking cares? games as a service shouldnt exist. if they have to be made offline/local/private server at official eol then sure whater, but no one is really losing out on anything that matters.

>>718164747
Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
Like, clinically diagnosed by a psychiatrist stuff

>>718164990
half the board is these shitposts
honestly makes me miss the altchans

>>718164990
I am fucking sincere, but people are so emotional about this that I am just outnumbered.

This is not bait, I swear. I am calling out the usual trope of wanting additional government legislation to protect consumers, exposing how it will not protect consumers at all and just hinder the market in favour of the top dogs.

This could be said about SKG, but really is known to anyone with any education in libertarianism or business. Gamers are not thinking in terms of incentives, they want more government regulation in games without thinking about what this will lead to.

>>718165164
>you never own any of your games to begin with
In Europe you generally own the copy of the game. Usedsoft vs Oracle established as part of its proceedings a final ruling from the European Court of Justice that, among other things, cemented that software sold under perpetual license - ie. for indeterminate period - is to be equated to a good. You don't buy a license. You buy the copy of the game. And the license are just ancillary terms to the contract of sale, which also limit them in what they can legally accomplish. I.e. they cannot contain anything that changes the primary characteristics of the product or the nature of the contract.

Because you own the copy, European law doesn't even need there to be a license for your usage of the copy to be legal.
The only thing that typically needs to be licensed wrt creative works under European law, are distribution and reproduction rights. Not usage rights.

>>718162854 (OP)
Maybe you should've given that mana pot to your ferret.

>>718165331
yea, generally i hate it when people throw around words like narcissist, sociopath, psychopath, etc. but in his case its actually legit. His interview with the psychologist was very damning and it was obvious what was going on.

>>718165258
By taking away the game they take away access to the skin you purchased.
Transitive closure is a bitch, isn't it?