Thread 718210318

is there more dishonest game design than the shmups?

>you play as a large ship but actually your hitbox is just one arbitrary pixel
>vomits so many pink bullets at you the game engine starts to shit itself, but uh slowdowns are coded in on purpose
>baits you into thinking its reactslop but its actually memoslop

1. Shmups aren't all danmaku, play Gradius Origins or some shit if you don't want tiny hitboxes or obstacles that's not bullet walls(it's more memo tho)
2. Slowdown is cool in bullet hell, not so much in older ones where you don't do precise micro dodging
3. Anyone who played shmups before, which is the target audience for CAVE games, knows very well reaction doesn't matter as much as routing, but ironically enough their own games are set in a way that makes it matter more than usual

This post right here is why i love CAVE. It inmediately filters retards.

>>718212856
Never knew Twinklechads were also CAVEchads.

>>718213120
Most STG enjoyers (that aren't retarded) enjoy all games across the genre.

are you actually mad about this or are you pretending
I hope its just pretending
Otherwise holy shit you need some meds, seething about this for months on end, who are you trying top convince anyways? if you are sure of your position what do you care what others think so much?
Go do something better with your life

>>718210318 (OP)
Shmups are peak honesty. They're very transparent in what they offer.

Only dishonest schmups are the ones that put a boss rush in the final level aka like 50% of them.

>>718210318 (OP)
Hitboxes are a minor problem. Giving enemies a brief period of invincibility after they spawn, but still making it look like you're doing damage to them, is where I draw the fucking line. The fact that outright lying to the player and having tons of scripted "exceptions" for core mechanics is apparently normal, and the fact that shmuptards actually see this as a good thing, blows my mind. Absolutely subhuman fanbase.

>>718218071
>Giving enemies a brief period of invincibility after they spawn, but still making it look like you're doing damage to them, is where I draw the fucking line.
That's because otherwise your fire would kill them the literal frame they appear on screen, at least for zakos.
Conversely, there are also mechanics to help the player avoid bullshit deaths such as sealing fire for enemies that are close to your hitbox, or when they are too low on the screen.

Many games use tricks like that to make gameplay smoother, they are usually a result of devs learning from player experience.

>/v/ and /vr/ constantly go on about how epic and hardcore they are for playing shmups
>circlejerk with each other with retarded strawman arguments about shmups
>whenever i make a shmup thread without bait, making it obvious what the game is, or without saying the word shmup the thread dies
Curious, it's like shmupfags don't play
Also shmupfags literally can't play anything that isn't memoshit

>>718218438
Cool headcanon bro

>>718218493
Except it's literally happened, constantly
What doesn't happen is the amount of bullshit I see shmupfags claim happens
The fact they think modern gamers don't want difficult games says it all

>>718218438
there is nothing to talk about with them
It doesnt mean people dont play them

>>718218580
>The fact they think modern gamers don't want difficult games says it all
They don't.

>Inb4 lel souls
Souls isn't even hard. Tell these people to play a real action game like Ninja Gaiden or even a fighting game online or local and they flake

>>718218628
>like ninja gaiden
THERE IT IS

>>718218221
>That's because otherwise your fire would kill them the literal frame they appear on screen
As it fucking should. Balance the enemies' TTK appropriately if that's the problem. Don't fucking punish the player for being positioned correctly. By the way, sealing is a dishonest bullshit mechanic too. Don't reward the player for being positioned incorrectly, either.

>>718218645
Some faggot youtuber doesn't represent every single shmup player on the planet.

>>718218674
You aren't being punished since you will still kill the enemy as quickly as the game expects you if your positioning is good, and sealing cannot be "bullshit" since it's there to prevent you suddenly exploding from a bullet you didn't even see appear on screen.

>>718218758
OK stream some god tier Ninja Gaiden gameplay right now and show us how it's done

>>718218438
maybe they don't reply to your shit threads because they're actually playing videogames?

>>718218776
Sure, right after you stream a 1cc.

He won't, they never do

Are there any STG where enemy behaviour or patterns are randomised?

>>718218221
>nooo you can't just kill enemies with a headshot that's too fast
what

arcades made shmups suck because they're designed to be unwinnable on first try. memorization shit is required for devs to make money, they need to force you to play through it multiple times
if shmups evolved on consoles first, they wouldn't rely on memorization so much. if you win on first try that's fine for a console game

>>718218758
>You aren't being punished since you will still kill the enemy as quickly as the game expects you
Yes you are because the enemy is eating up your time and damage that could have been spent on other on-screen enemies who are actually vulnerable. This plays a huge role in some routing. It is objectively a punishment if it's not signposted correctly, and it usually isn't.
>sealing cannot be "bullshit" since it's there to prevent you suddenly exploding from a bullet you didn't even see appear on screen.
It is a reward if the bullet comes from an on-screen enemy who you CAN see and who you can intentionally exploit not to shoot at you while you're within some fucking arbitrary distance of them.

LMFAO
Ninja Gaiden sissies will do literally anything except actually play their game

>>718218843
You don't do headshots frame 1. In many shmups there is almost always a hitbox at the top of the screen from your fire unless it's one of these where you stop firing until you hit something.

>>718218819
TSS and clones has AI opponents similar to fightans where they both have some randomization and input reading, or in this case reacting directly to hitboxes from the shit you send them. Although zakos you have to kill on both screens come down in set formations for the sake of not giving advantage to one player just because he got luckier.

Mark.

>>718219146
AHHH MORK AHHHH

>>718219026
>This plays a huge role in some routing. It is objectively a punishment if it's not signposted correctly, and it usually isn't.
Except routing is game-specific and with awareness of the mechanics you are dealing with. That being said, along with sealing and hitbox dissonance is one of the many open secrets of shmups unless it's literally your first time ever touching these games. No shit you cannot just hog the top/right side of the screen with a sufficiently wide shot and just remove zakos from the game.

>>718218950
Console-focused shmups are indeed better. A lot of them are memoshit too but they're also self-contained experiences and not predatory junk with slot machine tier scoring effects and dopamine-bait confetti littering the screen. The console shmupper is one who enjoys shmups for the sake of shmups. Meanwhile arcade shmuppers are brainrotted degenerates and gambling addicts.

For me it's rail shooters, the thinking mans shmup

>>718219146
>>718219156
haha

>>718218950
Truth nuke

Even the arcade to console ports are better because they had to balance the game around the fact console players didn't quarters so they had to make it fair

>>718219103
>You don't do headshots frame 1.
Sometimes I do. Shouldn't be punished for it

>>718219498
Doubt, but I'm sure you can tell the difference between "sometimes" and your own fire hitbox hitting the top of the screen most of the time.

Shmuptards are the metalheads of the gaming community. They act like elitists and intellectuals when they are actually straight up retarded. They talk about shit literally everybody already knows and then act like it's the most profound shit ever. And on top of that, they smell like shit.

>>718219882
They're also posers. Like 99 percent of metalfags

>>718219882
>They talk about shit literally everybody already knows
If that was true, no one would be bitching about these things they supposedly knew already

>>718219908
I have no experience with metalfags but I do agree shmupfags are posers
Hell even in this very thread, when asked to stream NG or a shmup they refuse

>>718219926
It's been a while, but anons in these threads did stream playing shmups.

i play shmups for the plot, atmosphere and characters

>>718220015
You must only play like 2 shumps

>>718219921
>no one would be bitching about these things they supposedly knew already
judging by this thread and the responses to OP, people are bitching about obvious things in the genre which are obviously bad, but which shmup fags have somehow mindbroken themselves into thinking are good

>>718220404
>bring up arguments for why these things are there
>le mindbroken
Go the fuck back.

>>718218950
shmups are finely honed gems of code that are a result of the social phenomenon of arcades and their financial incentives, a deep tradition of game design going back to space invaders, the reality of existing on particular boards with particular performance/slowdown tendencies, the tug of war between devoted players constantly pushing against the skill ceiling and devs trying to simultaneously thwart and entice said players
none of which is to say you have to think they're fun, but shmups are super interesting in a designerly way, and it's fascinating how companies like cave and psikyo became obsessed with iterating on the genre and tweaking its mechanics long past the point where there was a viable market for them, and institutional knowledge became so specialized that a cave game is so recognizably cave and it's nearly impossible to replicate despite so many people trying. it's this weird masochistic thing that is video game crack for a certain kind of weirdo

>finely honed gems of code
>need to constantly re-release because the original version was so fucking bad
>nonstop slowdown
>some games like soukyugurentai literally don't even function due to poor coding

>>718220804
CAVE is a good example of purely passionate devs doing what they like to do, keeping their target audience relatively the same, no fucks given to what the rest of the industry is doing until unfortunately it became impossible to sustain.

>>718220015
If only there was a medium where you can experince that without any boring gameplay

>>718210318 (OP)
You are describing bullethells, which aren't real shmups.

>vibe perfectly with the challenging gameplay aspect and the idea to run to beat a game with a given amount of allowed mistakes or even none at all, even do this in other non-arcade genres whenever I like a game enough
>absolutely loathe most of the community, how they treat the games, the "culture", how they talk about other genres, all the social signaling shit and really anything that's not just publishing replays of your runs and shutting up
Anyone else?

Don't give a shit.
Post Hina.

>>718223181
I used to, but asking for a 1cc/stream and they don't provide means I just stop listening to them
Also anyone posturing themselves as some hyper expert game design guru on all genres yet can't clear anything but shmups is a scam artist
Yes I AM talking about mork

>>718210318 (OP)
Wait till you realise half the bullet patterns are only made to scare you and some even intentionally avoid hitting you if you stand still

>>718223259
Mork would have been fine if he just said
>hey guys shmups are cool, watch this hours long video where I tell you how much I want to be fucked silly by Ikeda
but yeah he went way beyond that.

>>718223259
>I AM talking about mork
And yet Mork, despite not knowing when to shut up or how to research stuff, is still more competent than like 90% of game reviewers.
https://www.youtube.com/live/k0rBPlPhxWo?feature=shared

>>718223712
>is still more competent than like 90% of game reviewers.
That's a pretty low bar. Most people ITT would also qualify

>>718223712
Mork is literally retarded and worse than average reviewers
Mork doesn't clear games outside shmups, doesn't know history and his gameplay is pathetic

>>718210318 (OP)
>>you play as a large ship but actually your hitbox is just one arbitrary pixel
Clarity of hitboxes is the only problem. Other than that, shmups are a far more honest genre than most other action games, which rely on input buffers and animation cancelling to feel good, lying to player about his manual performance, or most RPGs that rig the RNG in player's favor, again lying to the player for a smoother experience, and make number calculations opaque. These are good lies, but they are not honest.

>>718223712
Mork is unriconally more retarded than a game reviewer. He's the Dean Takahashi of shmups

>>718223896
Small hitboxes, and the entire bullet hell variant was made with a similar mindset: feels good to do extreme dodging, so we make it look more extreme. There are few other mechanics but shmups really aren't immune to this kind of thinking.
On the other hand, you also have mechanics that are more hidden and work against the player, such as aggressive dynamic difficulty systems sometimes forcing you to take misses or avoid powerups if you want the game to be possible on one credit.

>>718224137
Good point, rank management can be pretty dishonest when you think about it.

PLEASE CONTINUE

Mork derangement syndrome is real

>>718226040
t. Mork

>>718210318 (OP)
Shmups is one of those genres where the genre perception among masses is poisoned by one specific company/game, most shmups are not desinged like that.
It's like RTS, where the mere mention of the term invoke the image of two gooks gookclicking in some esports starcraft tournament.

>>718210318 (OP)
>>you play as a large ship but actually your hitbox is just one arbitrary pixel
i fucking despise it so much, rabi-ribi can be comfy but doing anything on higher difficulties is just impossibe

Not all shoot 'em ups are difficult. I only have 6.5 hours on the Steam version of Deathsmiles, but I can already reach the last boss frequently. Now I have 40 hours on Mr Driller and Tetris Grandmaster 4, and I'm still a complete noob at those games.

Shut up and enjoy some high rank Batrider gameplay
https://streamable.com/gpoyao

>>718226951
>but I can already reach the last boss frequently.
But have you defeated it yet? As far as I can tell, Deathsmiles's stages are deliberately easy until the last one

RotMG

>>718210318 (OP)
Does any other genre filter casuals this hard?

>>718218819
Rrootage has that. Each set of 4 stages finishes with one against 3 bosses where their attacks are fully randomised, built up from mixed and matched fundamental components. The extent of their randomisation is enough that I didn't even realise they were randomly generated until I got to higher difficulties and started to fail stages. They just feel like regular bosses that are impossible to prepare for besides getting good at sightreading situations.

Hina

>>718218438
But I do play them

>>718218819
2hu with rng patches

>>718232091
This feels like it would have been a lot easier with Panzer Jager

>>718210318 (OP)
shmups are the most honest gameplaywise, just dodge. But yeah, to kill an experienced player you need shit like LoLK tier shit where the bullets bounce back at you. Focus on the ship and you should be able to dodge everything.

>>718235427
>Focus on the ship and you should be able to dodge everything.
Clear area you mean. Focusing on the ship is asking to get hit.

>>718235485
Wrong, by focusing on the ship I meant pic related.

>>718219882
Rather he a metal head shiny and chrome for Valhalla than a cRappy butthole fag who screams ONG BRO in a Will Smith voice

>>718236036
You do that only if you are mostly surrounded by bullets and need to micro in multiple directions.
Otherwise the typical focus position should be ahead.

>>718236195
Your game is trash if you don't need to interact with the game on that level.

>>718236382
Play more, actual shmups. Your game is slow micrododging sim if you are never looking ahead.

>>718236463
> Muh actual shmups.
Heh. Gradius is old design gramps.

>>718236514
Go for Xexex then

>>718236514
Should have asked yourself why you are getting filtered by such an easy game instead of blaming "old design". If you mean the first Gradius, at least.

>>718236609
> Thinks someone not liking old design is filtered.
You are the prime example of: >>718219882
Your game is just boring simple as.

>>718236885
Should have known it was seething touhouniggers.
Always them. Still unable to play anything but their doujin trash because it unironically taught them wrong.

>>718237028
> Noo it taught them wrong.
Japanese gamers will always laugh at piss-shit design of Euroshooters.

>>718237168
What did he mean by this.

>>718237208
> Game starts you off with a peashooter.
Boring game design, just let us start at a strong enough point already where the game doesn't crawl to a halt
> You have to have certain power-ups to clear the game otherwise you can't clear the run at the end boss.
Rather than player skill its player knowledge that wins the game at this point, having to look up a strategy guide is bad game design for an action game.
> Enemies are also peashooters that do not force engagement with the player to shoot them down.
This make you sit in a corner as you watch the game scroll through, poor game design again.

>>718237386
Damn so Gradius is a euroshump then didn't know that

>>718237729
Euroshmup can be made in any country just like a Japanshmup can be made in any country. Its a design principle rather than region locked thing like JRPG vs regular RPG.

>>718237386
> Game starts you off with a peashooter.
Problem with euroshmups is that it takes forever to reach full power, not that you start with little. In Gradius you are at full power by stage 2, the game is at least 4 times longer than that. You don't even know the context behind the shit you type.
>Rather than player skill its player knowledge that wins the game at this point
That's just routing and it's an arcade thing, not even about shmups. Also what "strategy guide"? You can figure out routes to beat the stages on your own by playing the game more. At worst you have to read about hidden mechanics in some games.
>This make you sit in a corner
Most old shmups are almost 100% aimed bullets, and quick ones at that, you can't stay still unless you are killing enemies before they enter on screen.

>>718237814
Extreme cope

>>718237896
> Extreme cope.
> No counter-argument.
> Its a literally known fact.
Just like how you have American Board Games and Eurogames. They are design principles. You are just retarded.

Now that I've discovered that Sanwa levers aren't durable, which ones should I buy if I want something that will last forever?
Thanks.

>>718237894
> Routes are lé hecking arcade design sacred cow.
And they are outdated as fuck for a reason, that was just to feed coins into the machine (player losing money, company making money.) Most modern SHMUPs with routes either have you choose stages you go through manually or through unlocking secret passages through clearing a stage mission. This is good design old design is just trash meant to suck out your coins.

>>718238245
just buy multiple parts that you like so you can keep replacing them, they are cheap in consideration. Nothing lasts forever when it comes to physical gadgets which grind against other objects etc. Even roulette wheels will get wear and tear on them.

>>718238247
>muh quarter munchers
Always the same shit from touhouniggers. It's no excuse when you are emulating anyways, whether you believe the high difficulty is motivated by economic reasons or anything else, it's there, and it's filtering you.
>Most modern SHMUPs with routes either have you choose stages you go through manually or through unlocking secret passages through clearing a stage mission
I don't think we are even talking about the same thing anymore.

>>718210318 (OP)
>Cave shit

>>718238571
An example of more modern stage/route select is something Thunder Force 4 in an euroshmup.

>>718238883
Not that anon, "routing" as in, knowing what to expect in the stage and thus positioning yourself accordingly. Ranges from simply making sure you will be aiming at some dangerous enemies, and it can go all the way to playing the entire thing as if there was an invisible path drawn on your screen to follow. The latter only applies if you are trying to do multiple loops or what's well above a survival 1cc(e.g. trying to beat a WR score)

>>718239128
You just meant in general map knowledge with routing, okay. Most Euroshmups don't have more than one big enemy on the screen. Rest are just popcorn peashooters.

Mao mao > H*na

>>718240842
Leinyan
No one ever clears DOJ with her, but Leinyan.

>>718241006
True!

>>718231690
Would you take her hand, anons?

>>718240842
>Waifufagging from 2 unrelated games
Why can't you just enjoy your waifu without comparing her to someone else's?

>>718238872
>>Cave shit
Deathsmiles is CAVE but it doesn't play anything like the one in the OP

b-bomb...

Are you looking forward for Platypus Reclayed, /v/?
https://x.com/ClaymaticGames/status/1954290649206816890

>>718242887
I've played the Demo for over an hour and pretty much tried all the new super shot variants
Yes, I'm very much looking forward to it.

>>718243142
I miss Yukarifag

>>718243232
Me too, I miss the castle of shikigami fags in general , that was a commission I had gotten, it took a long while for it to get done but on the off chance he comes around well..

>>718217064
>schmups
>c
How does this happen?

>>718241919
Deathsmiles is shit just because of the shit lolis and horrible art style though.

>>718243796
we are talking about how a game plays here, anon.

>>718243142
I remember this woman. The one whose job is literally to be a stage boss.
I mean no shit, I have played the Steam port eventually. But too little to actually remember anything about the game, except that weird stage 3 with walls

>>718243796
Anon trying to get a high score in faggotry. That was nearly WR.

Soon

>>718245492
get the fuck out

>>718244041
Oh, ok. Deathsmiles looks like visual diarrhea though.

>>718245730
It looks striking, strange, and fresh to me. We need more experimental styles like that.

>>718246107
You might find looking at my asshole just as striking, strange and fresh lol.

>>718245548
No

>>718248574
/v/ loves shmups, the OPs are just shitposting

Whitewashing?
On MY shmup??

>>718210318 (OP)
Holy retard
My favorite shmups are the original DDP, Progear, Radiant Silvergun and Batsgun

>>718248729
Not most of /v/ for sure.

>touhou
Ahem
https://nmlgc.net/OppositeWinner/

>>718250860
Lel. Classic shmup literature right there.

>>718249024
>manages to look like a dumb bimbo in both despite completely different artstyle and pose
At least it's very consistent.

gonna be honest, shmupchads. I only like 'classic' shoot em ups like gradius & R-Type. I can't stand bullet hell, personally. so any recs?

>>718248574
>autoscroller with no level design
>"""gameplay first"""

>>718245492
pretty excited for it. the characters (nareko especially), danmaku, and music in the demo have all been good

>>718210318 (OP)
>memoslop
all games are memoslop, you still have to play the game, its not like you can learn the levels well and then just go 2 all DDP whenever you want, unless you're like the best player ever and have like 10k hours on it or something.

>>718218950
>Paying $80 for a Sega Genesis copy of Zero Wing in the 90s
Aw, you're sweet

>Paying $2 in quarters (if you're an absolute shitter) to finish a full run of the arcade version
Hello? Human resources?

>>718252056
Radian Silvergun, but play arcade mode

>>718210318 (OP)
Ignore bad game design. Ignore game design as a whole
Read guides, use savestates, watch replays - design the game yourself