Thread 718338482

Creator of the highest selling fighting game destroys the Fighting Gay Community in a single quote

Smash will never be as skill based as melee ever again :(

>>718338482 (OP)
Soccerguy doesn't consider smash bros to be a fighting game.

>>718338482 (OP)
>>718338497
>has a brilliant combo system in melee that involves significant improvisation on the attacker's part, keeps the defender constantly engaged, and combos are still pretty short in terms of raw time
>kills it
shame that

>>718338497
TRVKE

>>718338482 (OP)
Smash sells well because it's a party game that can be sanded down into a decent fighting game.

>>718338482 (OP)
Combo memorization in fighting games and build path memorization in RTS...
I can't really think of more pseud mechanics than these.
Furry bugmen exclusive clubs.

>>718338482 (OP)
>>718338497
The part people keep forgetting is that Sakurai himself loves traditional fighting games and the example he's giving here is based on a moment where he was the guy completely shutting someone down. It's less that the genre is inherently flawed and more that its nature as a 1v1 game meant that losing will always feel really bad especially as designers experimented more and more with combo systems. Smash Bros exists as a splintering off of that idea meant to appeal to the people who just want to feel like they've had control over their character even when they get their ass beat, not an attempt to replace it.

>>718341953
> control over losing
> Ganon's side B
> Judgement #9
> Bayonetta ToD combos
> K.Rool neutral B under the stage
> Mario caped off stage
Sakurai scammed the shit out of you if you honestly believe those images

>>718338482 (OP)
Combo's are just extra damage. The strategy comes from how you open a combo.It's not less strategic, the strategy is just less overt, especially to new players.
Combo's aren't even that important if you're good at defending and punishing

Masahiro Sakurai is not the creator of Kirby. Kyouhei Miyabi and Satoru Iwata are. Sakurai is a graverobber

BUT COMBOS ARE STRATEGY HELLOOOO?
>*knocks on sakurai's head*
THERE ANY BRAIN IN THERE? THAT IS STRATEGY YOU IDIOT

>>718338482 (OP)
>>718338497
No one should listen to a fucking word Sakurai has to say, he accidentally let HAL make a great game and has spent 24 years trying to undo it with his new team of yes-men because of typical obtuse Japanese autism.

>>718341953
the thing is, "competitive" and "casual" are not mutually exclusive. You CAN have both in the same game, as Melee showed. Wanna play casual? Turn on items and wacky stages. Wanna play competitive? Turn off items and only play tournament stages.

You don't need to gimp the movement and combo system for everyone and make a boring stale game that's based around random stray hits and lucky reads.

>>718343505
The problem is the competitive aspects of movement and combos leak into casual play and ruin it. It’s a party game, so Spikes need something wrangling them down. Casual players still get a competitive instinct and getting into a match only for the opponent to start wavedashing like he’s dodging Chris Hansen is the polar opposite of fun.
Smash picked stupid ways to keep it in check though.

>>718338482 (OP)
>creator of party game critiques another genre

okay

>>718338482 (OP)
it's true turns into unglorified rhythm game

>>718338497
the skill check is not getting hit in the first place
if the game has no combos there's a 90% chance noob on the left eats shit anyway

>>718338482 (OP)
The FGC is shit, nothing weird

>>718338935
>>718346005
>missing the point
>>718346005
The point is the divide and gameplay being so poor it becomes not fun; a videogame should be fun but then you get situations like those. That's why Smash is a great game; it's versatile to the point everyone can play it and enjoy it while carrying some depth for skill as >>718341279 got it

>>718346005
You can be 100%'d from a single guess in more than one fighting game. At that point it has the same mechanical depth and strategy as rock paper scissors and promotes taking no actions at all.

>>718338482 (OP)
The guy on the left won, combos are gay and fighting games/melee are categorically bad

>>718347083
Nobody in the picture won, fighting games are for homos

>>718347113
BASED

no traditional fighting game has both prospering casual and high level scenes because theyre fundamentally flawed games

>>718347113
This is real truth of it.

>the guy that wanted to enjoy couldn't even play
>the sweaty fag denying the other player some game time couldn't even play as he wanted
The real enjoyment in fighting games comes from the excitement of going head to head until the very end

>>718347653
Marvel vs capcom series?

>>718338497
didn't ultimate end up being the most comboslop of the smash bros games by far?

>>718338482 (OP)
Then he created a game where the only strategy was camping

Combos should be relegated to one button that you hold down to continue.

>>718338482 (OP)
He's right and it's why soul calibur 2 is the best fighting game

>>718348304
Even Namco admitted Smoosh is a fighter.

>Smash Ultimate still makes Meleesnoys and FGCfags seethe to this day
You love to see it.

>>718348105
in smash64 most the cast have touch of death combos

>>718348304
> short hops
> spot dodging
> dodge rolling
if smash is a fighting game then the Palworld debacle means that Sakurai owes SNK a lot of money

>it's another shitters insist that being bad is more fun episode
dude just stop playing competitive games they're not for you and that's okay. you don't have to fuck our shit up because you have a weak ego goddamn.

>>718338482 (OP)
Play ST then.

Meanwhile DOA4 fixes the issue.
>no other game is ever like it
Really makes you think.

>>718338482 (OP)
Party game*

>>718350513
*party fighter

>>718338482 (OP)
>>718338497
He's speaking from experience. Sakurai did this to a guy once at an arcade in KoF 95 and then felt like shit later because he thought he ruined fighting games for that other guy forever.

>>718342498
Nearly all of those require a series of fuck ups on the person getting dicked's part, it's never "oops you lost footsies now watch a cutscene of getting your dick twisted for a minute straight"

>>718348549
based

>>718348236
I see you are also a counter hit enjoyer

>>718351831
Dictator is so fucking obnoxious.

by 'combos' he's probably talking about egregious touch of deaths as a comeback mechanic (king of fighters 13, mvc2/3). KOF13 is extra shit because it never got a balance patch and the DLC chars where top tier (pay2win).

>>718353128
the entire roster can do that

>>718346331
The same situation exists in smash, high skill players body low skill players. The only difference is that scrubs can do point matches instead of stocks so they can die 20 times in 10 minutes instead of 2 times in 1 minute

>>718346331
>missing the point
Not really. There are ways to bridge the divide between high and low-skill gameplay. Better feedback and tutorialization are one strategy; AFAIK melee doesn't even tell players DI exists in any way. Teaching everyone how to use it is a better approach than badly neutering the core gameplay in the thoroughly misguided hope that it'll stop tryhards from raping the shit out scrubs.

Combos are based when they take skill to pull off and there's literally nothing wrong with the lesser player getting humilated. It's fun to see somebody get dunked on.

Change my mind.

>>718353837
>>718354152
The high skill in smash is an anomaly between complete casual and person that knows to play the game.

>>718354521
What point are you even attempting, and failing, to convey?
Genuinely high skill players are a small minority in basically every game ever. Normally, people play against their friends or matchmaking puts them against people of comparable skill levels. If they play someone better than them, guess what? They lose.
Items and wacky stages already exist as a mechanic to introduce extreme randomness in smash. Just turn those on?

>>718338482 (OP)
Lol all goes to show how garbage fighting games are just go play dota 2 its pretty fucking simple

>>718351450
>a series of traditional fighting games starring Nintendo characters
It would never be a series since the first game would flop. Nintendo fans don't care about traditional fighting games. Pokken flopped 3 times.

>>718354697
>Genuinely high skill players are a small minority in basically every game ever
No, they're the normal for traditional fighting games. Why do you think the genre was obliterated by the e-sport crowd appeal?

>Normally, people play against their friends or matchmaking puts them against people of comparable skill levels
And we don't live 20 years ago but now.

>Items and wacky stages already exist as a mechanic to introduce extreme randomness in smash. Just turn those on?
No, smash is very versatile so you can have equal appeal with or without items. The real question is the stage. Pokefloats, right? I hope so

>>718338497
100%. Most fighting games are mindless dogshit pattern memorization. You might as well be playing picrel

>>718338497
combos are player expression
only secondaries think it's just memorizing one very long string of buttons

When Sakurai made a high skill celling game on accident he got so annoyed that he put tripping in Brawl. Nobody should trust this man's opinion on competitive games

>>718350893
>he thought he ruined fighting games for that other guy forever

If someone is so weak that they give up fighting games entirely because they got blown the fuck up in one match, in one game, then fighting games were never for them. Stop letting this mindset ruin the fighting game genre for the rest of those that enjoy fighting games. You know, the ones that actually stick to it, learn from their mistakes, study playstyles, find their own, and actually come out on top for once. No one loses forever.

>>718355127
>player expression
>it's preset chain of buttons

>>718355491
Dial-a-combo is generally looked down upon in the FGC

If people dont like getting styled on then they should acquire skill, simple as

>>718355385
>Anon: "If someone is so weak that they give up fighting games entirely because they got blown the fuck up in one match, in one game, then fighting games were never for them"
>Also Anon some time later: "OMFG why does nobody plays fighting games?!1!"

>>718354916
>No, they're the normal for traditional fighting games.
HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH
Holy shit you're funny. Buddy, go check the steam achievements for basically any fighting game. The large majority of players never play against a single human online.

>And we don't live 20 years ago but now.
What? Are you saying people didn't play smash against their friends 20 years ago? In any case, fighting opponents of your own skill level became much more accessible when smash went online, so again, not much of an argument.

I understand casualizing certain, specific tryhard elements from melee that added complexity and hand pain in exchange for minimal depth. L-cancelling was silly, being able to freely use moves in either direction out of a run is better, and edgehogging is fairly trivial and aesthetically awkward. But the combo system was fantastic and DI as a mechanic is actually pretty easy to understand once a basic explanation is offered. Killing combos is just throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

and yes pokefloats is the best casual stage

>>718348105
No, combos are (with a few exceptions) shorter than melee and much shorter than 64. Though funnily, ultimate's combos are less interactive than melee's due to weaker directional influence. Which you'd think would be the opposite of what sakurai wanted.

>>718355564
I don't know, MvsC3 is very well regarded even with fgc autists and that shit is pretty much the same combo chain over and over again + exploiting game's rules. Game is great but the VS is the biggest offender of repetitive combo chains

>>718355678
>casual stage
>he thinks it's the casual stage
what a fucking retarded post, bro

Smash literally only sells and retains a playerbase because of Nintendo bing bing wahoo brand loyalty. We'd had multiple fundamentally better knock-offs compared to Brawl and Ultimate, yet funnily enough absolutely none of them last longer than a year. Let's not pretend anybody gives a shit about the combat in these games, they just want to see Mario beat the shit out of Princess Peach.

>>718355918
oh noooo I didn't use anon's preferred nomenclature which is a key element of whatever schizo battle he's fighting on /v/, I'm soooooo sorry

>>718355846
Those are just optimal combos, not presets, and even MvC3 had stuff that was so hard to pull off only a few players could do it like ChrisG's Morrigan

>>718344439
>casual players still get a competitive instinct
Translation: most people are idiots with over-inflated egos who mentally implode when they get a reality check.

>>718356008
>coping this hard
Anon... pokefloat is the best stage of smash due the ever changing nature of the terrain enabling massive different type of situations. It's the best stage in any fighting game; nothing to do with your retarded casual vs hardore fetish

>>718338935
bold of you to assume he even knew they were there.

>>718355965
IP helps a lot, sure, but it's far from everything. If Mario beating up Peach was all that mattered, every new smash game would have outlived its predecessor. Instead melee has outlived 2 and will outlive ultimate.

Multiversus and PSABR had initial popularity based on IP, but would have had significantly longer lifespans if their gameplay had actually been good.

>We'd had multiple fundamentally better knock-offs compared to Brawl and Ultimate, yet funnily enough absolutely none of them last longer than a year.
Yeah bro, all of those brand new IPs in the traditional fighter genre have been roaring successes. Such as.... uh.......

>>718356123
>Those are just optimal combos, not presets
>L>>M>>H>>S>>Air
>rinse and repeat
This is basically every Capcom vs game, the same animations and attacks over and over again. And this even includes fgc autists with the borderline retarded infinite combo. There's no "expression" in shit like that you see that, you see it when some random motherfucker appears with a non meta character and proceeds to win, but this is an even bigger outlier

The only games that can have any form of expression are the 3D fighters that allow to control you air trajectory

Play sf6/tekken 8/mk1/gg strive its fun!

>>718348304
sorry these jew memes are too cryptic, are you trying to say something?

>>718356213
I'm sorry to inform you that the stage is HEAVILY exploitable and only functions in a casual setting where people are playing to have fun instead of playing to win (or are playing to win but don't know enough about the game to exploit what makes pokefloats broken).
Unfortunately the more dynamic melee stages tend to enable a really cheesy, lame dominant strategy and big balance issues instead of promoting interesting, dynamic gameplay. I love pokefloats and I get why the idea of it is mechanically cool, but that's just how it is.

>>718356843
>I'm sorry to inform you that the stage is HEAVILY exploitable and only functions in a casual setting where people are playing to have fun instead of playing to win (or are playing to win but don't know enough about the game to exploit what makes pokefloats broken).
>implying people can't play for fun while exploiting and getting buttfucked by pokefloats' exploiting

>>718355678
not the guy you're arguing with who is also retarded but I had to point out
>steam
these are the exact 08er casuals the dude is talking about my guy.

>>718355678
>Holy shit you're funny. Buddy, go check the steam achievements for basically any fighting game. The large majority of players never play against a single human online.
You confirmed his point

>>718338497
Smash not have healthbars, combos and stages are small islands in a void.

>>718338497
Old guy here.

It's kind of been forgotten, but when fighting games first started to lean HARD into combo focused games, like let's say around Killer Instinct, there was a real feeling that it was the beginning of the end for the genre in the mainstream.

So dude isn't wrong. Combos (or more accurately, excessive emphasis on combos) killed fighting games commercially.

Samurai Spirits solved fighting games over 30 years ago.

I never played smash but isn't the meta picking characters who can combo you to death?

>>718338497
yeah of course, because it's supposed be like learning a language, or learning a musical instrument, or any other skill, really. smash doesn't require that much strategy either, it's just footsies, the same sort of thing that exists in every other fighting game.

>>718357294
No, in theory it's the fastest. But even then Metaknight, ZSS and Fox have been mogged in their games by slower characters.

i fucking love melee, always have, probably always will. wish i had a gamecube again. had no issue just practicing things against CPU or trying targets/home run contest for records.

>>718354321
high damaging combos used to require equally high level performance from the player. motion inputs made it so going for risky links had the chance of dropping, freeing the opponent to punish you. In the context of a game, this would be you missing your punch and getting counter.

With the loss of motion inputs, its virtually impossible to drop a difficult combo and means any player of any skill can do that combo with a few minutes of labbing in training mode.

pic rel is the worst offender of this. Fighting gameplay has been reduced to
>poke opponent
>high damaging string off that poke
>extremely long cinematic finisher
>50/50 oki, if you fail, go back to step 1 until youre dead.
THIS is the aspect people hate in fighting games. There aren't any equally good defensive mechanics as there are offensive mechanics, which makes points 2 and 4 sting even harder

>>718338482 (OP)
There is no amount of nerfing you can do to fighting games to bridge the gap between pro and newbie, unless you cross the line of abolishing the identity of the game. Good players will always trash a new player unless the new player makes 100 good guesses in a row, and that's luck. No one cares about your feelings, this is why sbmm exists. If you get someone too good for you, back out until you get matched with another newbie.

It's that easy.

>>718356927
No, the stage is great for that, which is why I called it the best casual stage.

>>718358056
It's not casual at all, anon. That's FD

>>718357017
>>718357063
I dunno what reply you're reading. I said
>Genuinely high skill players are a small minority in basically every game ever
He replied
>No, they're the normal for traditional fighting games
Which I responded to by pointing out skilled players are the exception rather than the norm even in traditional fighters. Though his sentence about esports killing them does make more sense if he meant to type abnormal instead of "the normal" but in that case idk what he's saying or why he disagreed

>>718338482 (OP)
Combos only have a place in beat em ups (and later action games) because you don’t have another human player to bounce off of
Fighting games are mental exercises involving the tools given to each player, not memorizing strings
Yes you need to memorize your buttons to an extent, but gay shit like Tekken’s juggling is annoying and boring because every match just turns into “who can get one out first”
This translates to new players too because newbies like Tekken for how mashy it is; they understand that the name of the game is hit stun combos and attempt to do it

>>718338482 (OP)
I unironically think Sakurai would enjoy Arcana Heart a lot.
And supposedly he has genuine competitive fighting experience. So I really do mean that.

Someone has surely made a version of chess with combos

>>718348091
>dead series?
Is dead.

>>718338935
Melee was a rushed mess, it wasn't meant to be like that

>>718354321
Couldn't have used a worst example than this brain dead faggot.
Sakurai's right, most fighting games are dominated by touch of death shit, get touched once and oh well, put the controller down, mom said its not your turn to play.

>>718358631
Project X Zone

>>718358374
He's right because he knows the bulk of fighting game players are only fgc sweatlords that only play between themselves, not normal people. So yeah, you confirmed his point; the majority of traditional fighting games is so low they're, in numbers, a minority as steam numbers prove.

>>718358674
>MvsCInifinte some time ago
>recurrent re-release of MvsC 1 and 2 in these last years
Not as much as you may think. Wouldn't be surprised if 3 gets a re-release

>>718359208
Basado crosspilled

>>718358727
Not really. There are aspects where the short dev cycle can be clearly felt, like the somewhat thin content, clone characters, some characters clearly not being very finished like G&W and his broken shield. But DI was a fully intended mechanic.

>>718359102
Just dont get hit scrub

>>718359240
What in the sweet fuck am I reading? If the large majority of people who buy and play a traditional fighter never fight anyone else online, they are not "high-skill players". There are zero genres where "high skill players" are the majority.

If the game dies and only a tiny devout core of discordfags remain, that's not a demographic shift that's reflective of the game's fundamental nature in any meaningful way, that's just a different part of the vidya ecosystem living off the decomposing remains of a dead game. Hardcore compfags were not anywhere close to the majority of purchasers, and that's all that matters.

>>718359768
>If the large majority of people who buy and play a traditional fighter never fight anyone else online, they are not "high-skill players". There are zero genres where "high skill players" are the majority.
Fighting games; they're the only playerbase possible. That's why they die in less than 2 months; the normal people that wants to enjoy playing them fucks off or get shoved aside

>>718359476
*crosses you up*
Heh, nothing personel kid.
Now hold still while I do my 500 hit combo with damage decay.

>>718338497
that's why I don't play arc sys or mahvel games
>>718355127
true but they will be pretty fucking long all the same.

>>718359967
>Fighting games; they're the only playerbase possible.
Again, this is just flat-out fucking wrong. Most people who get fighting games play singleplayer and fuck around with their friends offline. This is a fact.

>>718350716
I like playing as Shulk since I can fuck with the combofags like Luigi and Bayonetta

>>718360330
>Again, this is just flat-out fucking wrong.
Steam numbers don't lie. People don't have friends anymore like the past. They only appeal and exists due the niche competitive autist

>>718360594
>Steam numbers don't lie
You mean the steam numbers that tell us from achievements that only a small portion of any fighting game's owners ever fight another human?
Any fighting IP that actually tried to subsist off of niche autists would die after a single game.

>>718360685
>You mean the steam numbers that tell us from achievements that only a small portion of any fighting game's owners ever fight another human?
No.

>>718338482 (OP)
the war crime level BO is a bigger concern for the fighting game community.

I only like playing SF3 and I man mostly casual about it. After SF5 I really don't see myself ever buying a fighting game ever again.

>lose neutral
>got combo'd
wooooooooooooooooooooooow

What happened with getting better at videogames?