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Thread 718365346

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Anonymous No.718365346 >>718368069 >>718373538 >>718374238 >>718375036 >>718375320 >>718375351 >>718375735 >>718376094 >>718376149 >>718377248 >>718385186 >>718386659 >>718386724
"I am a lazy game designer"
Anonymous No.718365793
Every skill tree is like a variation of 3 different systems. They're all lazy, but it works well enough
Anonymous No.718367026
"I dont like this thing"
Anonymous No.718367968
I agree such trees are abject slop, although sleepoch at least puts some juicy stuff in there. I still can't be fucked actually playing it though, it feels like ass.
Anonymous No.718368069 >>718378017
>>718365346 (OP)
the last epoch skill trees would make LE the best arpg ever if the other parts of it weren't so barebones.
Anonymous No.718368320 >>718368438 >>718368580 >>718368679 >>718369030 >>718375036 >>718376846 >>718378840 >>718379240 >>718379294 >>718382508 >>718386659 >>718387423
skill trees are bad
you should have a class, that levels up, and as it levels up it unlocks skills and passives at fixed intervals

this should also be the primary means of power scaling in the game, with equipment making up only about ~20% of your overall effectiveness

Variation in game experience should mainly come from how the player decides to solve the problems the game throws at them with the abilities they have, with optimal use of skills and tactics rewarding the player with higher efficiency and faster clear speed, resulting in more exp over time, which makes them grow stronger faster and thus satisfy the power fantasy

instead we get games that are boring to play and people try to satisfy their power fantasy in abstract space by imagining builds of skill combinations and equipment combinations and then the actual game experience is unsatisfying so they go talk about their build or watch videos about theorycraft instead of playing. The game they play is not even the game, but imagining about playing the game. Many such cases in modern video games. arpgs should have stopped at diablo 1
Anonymous No.718368438 >>718368795
>>718368320
we get it you like D&D
Anonymous No.718368580 >>718368679 >>718368795 >>718375789
>>718368320
Never make a game
Anonymous No.718368679 >>718368795
>>718368320
Disregard this guy >>718368580
Make a game so I can laugh at you when it's complete dogshit.
Anonymous No.718368795 >>718373612 >>718385346 >>718387540
>>718368438
d&d is terrible, multiclassing and feats are just another convoluted build
>>718368580
>>718368679
some of the most successful and addicting games in history follow my stated formula
Anonymous No.718369030 >>718369353 >>718369663
>>718368320
what if we took the rpg outta rpg?
Anonymous No.718369353 >>718386338
>>718369030
>rpg is when skill tree slop
Anonymous No.718369663 >>718373894
>>718369030
the rpg in rpg is about immersing yourself in the games world and feeling like you are a character walking around and interacting with it, identifying as your character and letting the real world temporarily dissolve away from your awareness.
Not tinkering with a character sheet, and deffinitely not making builds that essentially play the exact same way but have different looking abilities. thats not role playing at all.
This is why i say bring the actual variability out of the abstract build level and into the actual gameplay level.

The difference between a bad build and a good build is how fast they plow through monsters. Thats really not variability.

Actual role playing in an rpg if you wanted to emphasize and enhance it would be, instead, something like you pick your fixed static class and the entire game world responds to your character differently because you are inherently a different social class within the society, the overall objectives you are even trying to accomplish are different, and large portions of content is opened or closed to you compared to if you were playing a different run with a different class. Those things, where you play a game and encounter something bespoke for the character identity you told the game you are playing as, that feels really nice, it feels reactive to your decisions. rpgs should just be a sandbox simulating a world and then a shitload of things like that.
Anonymous No.718373538
>>718365346 (OP)
but enough about diablo 4!
Anonymous No.718373586 >>718376748
>solves skill trees
Anonymous No.718373612 >>718373762
>>718368795
>most successful and addicting
the lugubrious salesfag reveals itself
Anonymous No.718373762 >>718373867 >>718375036 >>718375467 >>718375734 >>718375748
>>718373612
a games quality can be measured by how addicting it is, and its success can be measured by how many people keep playing it long after it released

those are the opposite of what corporations want. they want you to buy the slop and get tired of it so you have to buy more.
Their main method for this is engineering things that grab your imagination but fail to deliver actual quality experience, like the process of buildfaging i explained above.
>wow you can create anything! imagine the possibilities! play it your way!
meanwhile once you actually get in game its time to buy the next product.
Anonymous No.718373867
>>718373762
Retard.
Anonymous No.718373894 >>718374178
>>718369663
>the rpg in rpg is about immersing yourself in the games world and feeling like you are a character walking around and interacting with it, identifying as your character and letting the real world temporarily dissolve away from your awareness.
Not tinkering with a character sheet, and deffinitely not making builds that essentially play the exact same way but have different looking abilities. thats not role playing at all.
This is why i say bring the actual variability out of the abstract build level and into the actual gameplay level.
call of duty is my favorite rpg
Anonymous No.718374178
>>718373894
make it a simulated open world and its gameplay would be fine for an rpg
Anonymous No.718374238
>>718365346 (OP)
>didn't put 3 points in snail
Anonymous No.718375036 >>718375256 >>718387423
>>718365346 (OP)
>lazy
More like directionless. It's a completely meandering development style caused by devs just twiddling their thumbs and getting paid to do nothing, except with the full expectation that they will need to have SOMETHING to show during an unexpected sprint or crunch.
The same style that creates these skill trees also creates the awful "character sitting in the middle of a void" pause screen UI.
>>718368320
Leveling systems are bad, just a holdover from when games were mostly ripping off tabletop RPGs and weren't complicated enough to actually simulate more interactions.
Instead of leveling, just give the player a new thing to get skilled with, no need to fucking LINE MUST GO UP this shit specifically.
>>718373762
Engagement bait slop is bad and not a good metric for determining quality.
People continue to play games due to sunk cost fallacy, gambler's fallacy and ritualized behavior, that doesn't mean that Gacha or freemium games are good.
Anonymous No.718375256 >>718375842
>>718375036
This is correct. This is why Guild Wars 1 and its class/skill design was decades ahead of its time. The retarded game designers still have yet to fully unlock its potential and realize it.
Anonymous No.718375320
>>718365346 (OP)
A talent tree is automatically dogshit if there's any path after a node with a depth of more than 2
it always feels like you're wasting these points when you could've went a on a different path.

WoW talen trees until wotlk are better
Anonymous No.718375351
>>718365346 (OP)
I don't like skill trees either because way too often game designers put too many useless filler nodes that you're "forced" to get to reach nodes you actually want.
I wish it would've been more popular to just give a pool of abilities and let player choose any combination limited by the certain amount of points.
Anonymous No.718375447 >>718375495 >>718375837 >>718375842
>rpg is not about stats-ACK
Anonymous No.718375467
>>718373762
>those are the opposite of what corporations want.
Consider that "predatory" game design seeks to keep you locked into 1 game for as long as possible so that you are less likely to purchase and play competitors' games.
Anonymous No.718375495 >>718375616
>>718375447
>rpg is not about stats
Who are quoting?
Anonymous No.718375616 >>718375842
>>718375495
Todd Howard, as to why they removed attributes from Skyrim tbqh.
Anonymous No.718375734 >>718376227
>>718373762
Why waste time on your retarded leveling ideas if what you care about is success, just make a gambling game then
Anonymous No.718375735
>>718365346 (OP)
I can't tell you whether that's lazy or not unless I can see what the talents are
You think the layout of the tree on the screen matters? Those could all be Increase Damage by 1% for all I know
Anonymous No.718375748 >>718375795 >>718376227
>>718373762
>addicting
It's supposed to be "addictive", you FUCKING idiot. I know that language evolves and zoomers/esls have embraced "addictive" for whatever reason, but it's still retarded.
Anonymous No.718375789
>>718368580
Don't worry, he posts on 4chan
Anonymous No.718375795
>>718375748
I meant to say "addicting" the second time there. FUCK!!!!!
Anonymous No.718375837 >>718376342
>>718375447
Stats are not important
Decisions are important
Stats are only valuable in so far as they can enable a thought process which leads to interesting decisions. If they do not achieve this and instead just present numbers which go up then you're not making an RPG, you're making Progression Quest
Anonymous No.718375842
>>718375256
>Comfy game with a very low levelcap that you hit fairly fast and a neat multiclassing system
>Sequel throws it all out the window to deliver something that's infinitely more generic while claiming that it's subverting MMORPG stereotypes
I will never not be slightly mad that I wasted my money on that shit. 2011-2013 was the culmination of the modern industry falling off a cliff.
>>718375447
>Something played on tabletop, where simulation must be done manually by rolling dice
In a modern game practically all of this shit could just be handled in the background without the player needing to know about it beyond the abstracted elements.
>>718375616
I am not supporting Todd Howard's lies though. Skyrim is the mess that it is, because they cut corners, rushed it and half-assed it. They cut down on stats, because it meant less testing and less effort put into implementation.
Anonymous No.718376094
>>718365346 (OP)
>I'm esl that are unlikes to word lazy
Anonymous No.718376149
>>718365346 (OP)
way too small tree
Anonymous No.718376227 >>718376459
>>718375734
because that doesnt fit with the fantasy of going on an adventure and ascending to higher and higher levels of power.
>>718375748
im 41 and english is my first language and ive never used addictive that way
>games are addicting
>games can be highly addictive
these sound right to me
the inverse sounds alien and has jarring cadence
Anonymous No.718376342 >>718376598
>>718375837
Video game RPGs have never been that from 1986 on. You're not discussing video game RPGs in good faith from the get go if you ever put forward that starting definition and everyone who has been a part of game RPG discussions online since the 90s knows it. Ditto for 'you play the role of x' argument.
Anonymous No.718376459
>>718376227
You're an idiot though, since you think that.
Anonymous No.718376598
>>718376342
>RPGs are what I say they are
Wrong faggot, RPGs are what *I* say they are and your favourite number grinder is not an RPG
Anonymous No.718376748 >>718377515
>>718373586
Looks like kino, thanks for that anon
Anonymous No.718376846 >>718377051
>>718368320
>just remove all choice
No.
Anonymous No.718377051 >>718379240 >>718382234
>>718376846
choice is moved into the actual game environment
Anonymous No.718377248 >>718377313 >>718377413 >>718377768 >>718384375
>>718365346 (OP)
>Party levels up in a CRPG
>Have to spend the next 20 minutes reading and figuring out what abilities to give everyone
>Most of them are useless and others are overpowered
>Have no idea of knowing without searching it up beforehand or testing them out yourself
Anonymous No.718377313
>>718377248
ludokino
Anonymous No.718377413
>>718377248
>Have no idea of knowing without searching it up beforehand or testing them out yourself
>No respecs (or very limited ones) so you can't fix your build if you've picked useless stuff
Anonymous No.718377515 >>718378396
>>718376748
>I'm a pretentious twat that sucks cock
Anonymous No.718377768 >>718381604
>>718377248
>have to read
>is an illiterate ipad zoomie
>:(
stick to subway surfers
Anonymous No.718378017
>>718368069
What would you suggest
Anonymous No.718378396
>>718377515
Meanie
Anonymous No.718378840
>>718368320
You should be locked in a basement forever.
Anonymous No.718379240 >>718381315
>>718368320
>>718377051
And that's how you delete half of your sales. People don't understand "choices moved into the actual game environment", they must have numbers and they must see the skills, which they consciously choose, to think the game they're playing has any depth. Without explicitly telling players they have to choose, they will just naturally align to whatever they see as the optimal solution, spam that until the game is over, then complain and tell all their friends that it is a shallow game.
Anonymous No.718379294
>>718368320
Skill trees can be good. Pretty much no feature in a game is inherently good or bad, it just becomes bad when a developer is adding it because its expected of them and they dont actually make it a meaningful part of the game.
A skill tree where you are making choices beyond just what path to go down can be good.
Anonymous No.718381026
I don't mind skill trees, but minor value increases can fuck right off.
+0.5% fire damage? +0.1 crit chance? fuck you
Give me stuff that actually changes play, like "fireball bounces to another enemy on the first hit" etc.
Anonymous No.718381315
>>718379240
>they must have numbers and they must see the skills, which they consciously choose, to think the game they're playing has any depth
Speak for yourself midwit, people who don't have Number Go Up Brain can manage to make value judgements about variables which can't be compared on a spreadsheet. Range vs Speed vs Control vs Utility vs Damage is the sort of judgement people make when selecting Elden Ring weapons, where did half of ER's sales go?
Anonymous No.718381604
>>718377768
>read ability
>fireball: deal 5 to 15 fire damages in a 4m radius
>use it in game
>can be lobbed like a grenade and sets enemies on fire 100% of the time
Anonymous No.718382234
>>718377051
>choice is moved into the actual game environment
The choices you make at the character building stage should interact with the choices you make in the actual game environment, because the RPG choices you give the player should make use of variables in the game world instead of just numbers on a paper doll. ie Timing and Spacing or whatever equivalent exists within your combat system
Anonymous No.718382508 >>718387805
>>718368320
I'll do you one better. Skills and abilities should be through finding, not grinding. Everyone knows leveling systems are just band-aids on balancing so that even the worst players can brute force their way through a game. I've grown sick of "metroidvanias" as they are now for this reason.
Anonymous No.718383002
My only problem with skill treats is that it’s easy to become completely busted with a bit of grinding. The more variables you introduce, the harder it is to balance.
Anonymous No.718384375
>>718377248
Literally the best part of any RPG
Anonymous No.718385186
>>718365346 (OP)
Better than DnD clones which are all other games btw.
Anonymous No.718385346
>>718368795
>d&d is terrible
>I want class that work exactly like in d&d
Faggot.
Also, classes are gay and a fucking cancer on the RPG scene.
Anonymous No.718386338
>>718369353
Skill tress are more immersive than classes.
Anonymous No.718386659
>>718365346 (OP)
>every skill has its own skill tree
>total points are limited so you cant just max everything
>need brain to not only build your character but also find synergies between passive/active boosts within these trees, gear, class and other sources
nothing about this is lazy

>>718368320
>i want progression for uncs, gear that doesnt matter and simply increases stats, fake level scaling based on current level
t. shittanquest2 dev
Anonymous No.718386724
>>718365346 (OP)
That's pretty good tho
Anonymous No.718387352
I want more schizo tier skill trees.
Anonymous No.718387423
>>718375036
>>718368320
some of you people aren't as smart as you think you are
Anonymous No.718387540
>>718368795
surely you can name 10
Anonymous No.718387805
>>718382508
Ass Creed did this and no one cares lmao