Thread 718888456

>select your faction
>axis
>select your nation
>germany
>japan

Mussolini should had done what Franco did

>>718888694
What, stay nominally neutral? Nah, Mussolini basically saw the fall of france in motion, and figured that with their fall that the war would be over.
Now, if the war did end, then all of Mussolini's ambitions in Africa, and for Greater Italy and restitution for the betrayal by the entente in WWI basically become unactionable.
It's only obvious in hindsight with the knowledge that Britain wouldn't surrender, that the Italian Army was incompetent etc.

In contrast, Franco knew just how unstable Spain was, and by contrast had very little to gain by joining the war besides maybe some colonies in Africa, which he wasn't interested in anyway.

>>718888456 (OP)
Nazis would have been cool if they didn't declare war on Poland and the US. Why did they do it? Poles hate Russians and burgers hate commies. They should have been friends and killed all the bolshevik scum together.

Kicking the shit out of France was pretty based though, ngl.

>Peru
>form Peru-Bolivian Confederation
>get locked into a death war in the jungles of Paraguay to defeat communism

>>718890109
>Peru-Bolivian Confederation to defeat communism
>both are filled with commies

>>718889862
he could had waited more, wait till the allies or hitler offered some territories just like ww1

>>718888456 (OP)
based choice desu, if you're playing a WW2 sim and not going full weeb or blitzkrieg autismo then what are you even doing. Japan's navy is GOATed if you babysit it, and Germany let’s you paint the whole map gray by ’42 if you don’t do dumb shit like Barbarossa in winter. Bonus points if you try a meme strat like naval-invading America through Mexico.

>>718889862
Did any possible outcomes exist how Germany and Italy could win the war?

>>718890508
>Japan's navy is GOATed
Anon...watch some documentaries on what the burgers did to that navy.

>>718890026
>Poland
Occupied German land and ruled over German people, while refusing to negotiate at all with the return of Danzig (this leaves out context for why they refused, but I digress).
I'll be honest, the Poles got what they deserved, even if the Germans didn't deserve the land.

>the US
Funded and supplied their war enemies and were acting blatantly against their interests.
If you find this objectionable, please look into what the US itself does to nations that supply their enemies and act against their interests.
Also, there's an argument to be made that Hitler was just formalizing what was already reality, which also loosened the restrictions on unrestricted sub raiding because hey, we're already at war with all the people who would object.
I do think he should have played the game however that the US was "Neutral", but even if he did, Japan torpedoed any chances of keeping the US uninvolved, but this was due to the shit FDR was pulling regarding the China war, so if you REALLY want to blame someone for the US being involved, it would be FDR and Hirohito.

>Why didn't Germany ally poland/the US
Germany did try to ally poland multiple times, and they rejected it every time.
FDR also had a hate boner for Hitler and would never ally him.

>>718890227
Nah, if he waited in the hypothetical scenario where the war does end after the fall of france, then he would have no claim to any of the territories involved since he isn't involved at all.
I also think it's likely that, even if Hitler did have a hardon for Mussolini, he would have cut him out of any deal involving it so that peace could be assured.

>>718890741
I don't want to be entirely reductive, but the moment Hitler declared war on Russia is when he sealed his fate. The only other variable that could change is Japan not declaring on the US, but given their ideas about the nature of the war, that was never going to happen.

>>718890741
usa is actually neutral in the conflict instead of only saying they are but in reality sending over hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of supplies to britain and the ussr
they did the same thing in ww1 btw, ran on an anti war agenda but was actively goading germany to officially start shit the entire time

>>718890958
>I don't want to be entirely reductive, but the moment Hitler declared war on Russia is when he sealed his fate.
Why did he do that anyways. I bet his military advisors told him that's a stupid idea, because they already have their hands full on all fronts.

>>718890741
The two front war cucked Germany. Hitler would've had to make peace with the Allies (unlikely since UK was the center for globalism/zionism at the time) or not go to war with the Soviets (it's believed Stalin would've betrayed Hitler eventually)

>>718890958
Anon declaring war on America is always retarded. It doesn't really matter what, or how good, your reasons are. At the end of the day it's still stupid.

>>718891116
>they did the same thing in ww1 btw, ran on an anti war agenda but was actively goading germany to officially start shit the entire time
Sauce?
Why did they do that?

>>718891275
>Why did he do that anyways
Because Stalin was ultimately just using the peace to build up his forces so he could roll over Europe himself. Hitler (Correctly) thought this was the case, and decided that the Soviet Army was essentially just a massive pile of ineffective men that could easily be annihilated in the opening stages of Barbarossa (partially true) and that with the Army defeated, the Wehrmacht could just walk over everything that remained (wrong).

>I bet his military advisors told him that's a stupid idea
Actually a lot of them advocated for it thanks to the strain the war was putting on their resources (basically on track to the lose by default like in WW1), and guess what nation right next to them has a lot of resources?
This was mostly due to the perception that the Russians would be an easy target thanks to their abysmal performance in the Winter War, but again I digress.

> they already have their hands full on all fronts.
There were no fronts besides Africa, and that was largely viewed as a side project for the Italians, despite it mostly being Rommel's show.

>>718891504
I explicitly stated that he should've remained neutral towards America.
But I will explain that side of the argument, basically, how does America attack Germany?
That's right, they go through the Atlantic.
How do they get past the wall of submarines the Germans have? (Please note at the time that Subs were viewed as basically unavoidable and almost certain death for convoys)
So how do they get troops, and planes, and etc over when their everything is at the bottom of the sea?

>>718890741
Yeah a world where Mussolini wasn't a tard and pulled Germany into a war in the Balkans despite repeated warnings not to do that.

>>718891275
Hitler hated communism and it was only a matter of time before Stalin attacked anyway.

>>718888694
>>718889862
>>718890227
what Mussolini should've done is not try to completely rearm the Italian army in new guns and calibers instead of first just adopting spitzer bullets for the old 6.5 bolt-actions to evaluate against the new experimental 7.35 against which it will inevitably prove more than good enough- maybe still get 8x59mm Breda for aircraft but not land guns, rechamber any of those in 6.5 for LMGs and 12.7 for HMGs- and then clearing the incompetent old guard careerists out of the officer corps in favor of their more radical contemporaries and young fascists who would naturally figure out how to into maneuver warfare & set up progressive tactical schools years and years in advance that could earnestly cooperate with the Germans & Japanese in doctrinal and technological exchange.

And don't make machineguns that need the cartridges to be fucking oiled, either make them eat raw brass or lacquer/wax the cartridges. Ape the Vickers 6-ton or an even larger design over the Carden-Lloyd tankette earlier. Don't decide that ultramodernized biplanes are the future based on their dogfighting very well in Spain, but still make those because they're great CAS, night harassers, rough field handling liaison aircraft. Don't obsess over ride or die backing the Austrofascists in favor of coming to favorable terms with Hitler far earlier. Subdue the Catholic-Monarchist fifth column, stick with the syndicalists, organize along proper totalitarian lines in a Social Republic without having to suffer a coup by the king & become a puppet state.

>>718890741
plenty, be they based on political shifts, changes in strategic choices, changes in procurement, changes in fate touched bullshit. Preferably all of the above at once. As it was everything lined up uncannily for an early Allied blowout followed by everything new & worthwhile being destroyed in favor of a consolidation & eventually unholy mutation of the old order, just short of a Morgenthau-Vegetarian apocalypse.

>>718891639
the usa was sending supplies over to the uk and france more or less on the down low from 1914 - 1917 until they officially got involved
the lusitania, one of the reasons why the us got involved, was carrying thousands of dollars worth of munitions when it sank
as for why the wanted to get involved, the us government wanted a piece of the pie once the central powers were defeated despite the war being unpopular with us citizens initially

grim

>>718891987
>(Please note at the time that Subs were viewed as basically unavoidable and almost certain death for convoys)
That's just false. Antisubmarine warfare had been a thing for decades by that point. Depth charges had existed since WW1.

>>718893285
Yes, and weren't effective at preventing raids until much later in the war, after the technology had significantly improved.
What really sank those plans however were the homing torpedo counter measures that were developed, again, much later in the war.
Until then, the convoy raids were VERY effective.

>>718893621
The RN already had ASDIC in sevice before the war even began. And any ship the uboats did sink the Americans would just build 5 more. If he honestly thought uboats would how he could win the war he was retarded.

>>718890741
Should have built more fighter aircraft from the beginning and maintained total air superiority in all fronts. The good thing about them is that you don't need three full airforces, you can just have one and pivot. The Soviets were using biplanes with total impunity all the way to the end of the war. Disgrace.

>>718890741
Build a big ass war mech that Hitler pilots himself

>>718893998
>If he honestly thought uboats would how he could win the war he was retarded.
That wasn't the idea, the idea was to disrupt and delay the aid the Americans would send over, while in the mean time dealing with Russia.
If Russia falls (it wouldn't, but I digress), then the war would effectively end in a victory for the axis.
And yes, the royal navy did have asdic. It wasn't effective at preventing raids, as can be seen by the literal tons of shipping that was sunk, and this is the third I am stating this, until later in the war.

>>718894416
>If Russia falls (it wouldn't, but I digress), then the war would effectively end in a victory for the axis.
Why? How?

>>718894412
So... Char?

>>718888694
https://youtu.be/aeEnY8zg17o

>>718894596
They got within 30 miles of attacking moscow.
If they didn't fuck up stalingard they could have routed Russia, and then only had one front to worry about.

>>718894596
Because the main issue that sealed Germany's fate was a lack of resources. It was one of the primary reasons Hitler even decided to invade Russia. You can even see it with Fall Blau.
The only reason the Allies did, or even could, invade Normandy was due to Germany not having enough men and resources to effectively defend against the invasions, which would both be rectified by the manpower from the Russian front, and the sheer volume of equipment that could be transferred from it.
This isn't even getting into the oil shortages et al.

>>718894925
>Because the main issue that sealed Germany's fate was a lack of resources.
What resources?
Men, guns and ammo?

>>718895130
Oil is probably the biggest. You also have more specific examples like rare minerals for certain machine parts, hell even just food, but the biggest thing that Germany was starved for was Oil.
I'm sorry but I have to ask, are you just generally ignorant about WW2, or are you asking because you want to make a point?
For the former, there's a plethora of books, media, hell even YouTube videos that can go over much of this, and it it's to make a point, can you?

>>718895393
>I'm sorry but I have to ask, are you just generally ignorant about WW2, or are you asking because you want to make a point?
I'm just asking because you sound like you know what you're talking about and it just caught my interest. I wasn't asking in bad faith.

>>718895497
Then I'd strongly recommend,if you are interested, that you look for materials outside of just me spouting off. I'm more of a generalist with a broad overview of the entire war, and could be wrong about any number of minutiae (for example, this guy >>718892318 has some details about Italy's rearmament that I was not aware of).
I am not an expert, which is why I was pushing that guy to comment more about the specifics of battle of the Atlantic, because the TL;DR version is that German u-boats were extremely effective in their given role, and it wasn't until later in the war that the technological improvements and just the sheer volume of anti-submarine convoy escorts neutered the strategy. But that's the overview, maybe he knows more, etc.

>>718890741
Your question is too vague.
>Victory from whom?
>What degree of victory?
>Victory for the Germans and Italians as you say, or for the entirety of the Axis
But I digress... The short answer is no, and the slightly less shorter answer is yes, but it would have required multiple historical events leading up to the war and during the war to be different and even then the questions I brought up above complicate matters even more, so probably not.

>>718894416
>If Russia falls (it wouldn't, but I digress), then the war would effectively end in a victory for the axis.
Absolutely fucking not.

>>718890958
>he would have no claim to any of the territories involved

Nigga he got jack shit after france fell
he was better of doing some retarded deal with the allies instead
>uh, what about if u hand over tunis and recognize ethiopia as my clay?
>and you will enter the war then?
>yeah, you can land your army n retake paris on 2 weeks
>deal
ez

>>718890741
Italy not fucking everything up, hitler killing all the traitors like canaris

>>718891275
Because the uk refused peace, they were going to draw the usa into the war, cant invade the uk cause no navy and stalin is just sitting there readying to invade once the usa and germany are depleted.I

So knock out the ussr in a blitz avoiding the Napoleon issue and then the uk will give up or at worse fight a one front war on an ocean wide logistics line with the usa

>>718896850
In 43? With Moscow, Leningrad and Stalingrad occupied? With the oilfields (even if sabotaged) occupied?
I'm about 99% sure that Stalin would come to the negotiation table. Again, I don't think this was even possible hence the disclaimer, but if it did happen, then without nukes (which the Allies don't even know are feasible yet) the war is lost. Their strategic bombing will no longer be effective (hell, it could even restart the blitz).
They'd have no way to starve out the Germans.
Hell, they could even start supplying the Japanese and make that front perhaps not a complete wash.
Your idea is that they'll wait for the nukes, and then start dropping them I guess? I don't know. I do want to know however.

>>718896970
you're essentially describing the Stresa Front but that fell through specifically because of the Anglo-French and League of Nations cucking him to where he decided it was better to suck it up and bargain with Hitler, which is quite something considering Mussolini's ego and previous severe seething over Hitler and the Austrian issue

>>718888694
Italy is not Spain, he couldn't

>>718897503
i know about the stressa front, and what i am sure we both know is that after france fell, the allies would had been 100% more willing to deal with italy
it happened on ww1, mussolini should had just waited more

>>718888694
What did Franco do?

I think it's funny how Germany completely destroyed the reputation of fascism, Spain was fascist for like 40 years after the war and didn't even kill a quarter as many people as China or Russia did, sure it was definitely an authoritarian shithole but if I had to choose between those two or fascist Italy, the answer is pretty obvious

>>718897732
Stay "Neutral" while actually being somewhat aligned with the axis.

>>718897732
he
>did not participated on ww2 as a direct member of the axis
>focused on rebuilding his nation
>trade with axis members for cash
after the war started to turn in favor of the allies, he decided to "help a bit less" the axis, the USA told franco to fuck off n stop the blue division n trade and after the war they where not allowed to join the United Nations because "you were on the bad side of war >:( "
15 minutes later they noticed that the cold war started n became a bit more friendly with spain again

>>718897787
I hate centershitters like you wouldn't believe

>>718889862
Franco actually did agree to join the war, but requested Cameroon, which had been German before WW1. When the war started getting bad, Hitler offered Cameroon, but Franco was in full not my problem mode.

>>718898059
Sounds like he did everything right in this case?
What happened to Franco after the war?

>>718897424
Alright, as you also awknowledge that operation Barbarossa was never going to realistically succeed, I'll play ball.
Assuming the objectives you've set completed by 43.
>Leningrad taken
>Moscow taken
>Stalingrad taken
>Caucasus taken (but oilfields out of comission for the time being)
But where I think your wrong is this:
>I'm about 99% sure that Stalin would come to the negotiation table
Though we can't say this for sure, I'd say the war in the east would develop into a deadlock where the Soviets are severy kicked in but not out, Stalin's government would have retreated deeper, most likely into the Urals, where the Soviets had already moved massive portions of their heavy industry prior Barbarossa. Could have they amassed a counter offensive as massive and as quick as they did in our own timeline? No, but it doesn't matter since there is no chance in hell that the Germans would have been capable of Pushing into the Urals, whilst having to garrison a gigantic swath of land, managing supply lines, dealing with partisans etc.

The German's are pretty much too streched thin, fighting on too many fronts, something has to give, be it D-Day or the Italian front. Or if we wanna go full wildcard mode, I would have no doubt in my mind that the war in Europe goes quiet, the emphasis moves towards the Pacific, where the Japs are eventually defeated and afterwards, the Americans just straight march with the Soviets from the east.

And this doesn't even take into account nuclear weapons to be used in Europe. It is said that WW2 was won by British intelligence, American steel and Russian blood. None of which are ultimately out of the picture in the scenario you present.

>>718898132
He was ousted by heckin wholesome democrats that guillotined the evil fascist
Oh sorry, no, he died in his sleep peacefully.

>>718898132
ruled for like 30 years till he died of some heart thingy
lots of spaniards still fight on their dinner table because of the civil war

What rts even lets you play as imperial japan?Even then most of their primary enemies are absent either like the USAFFE or the chinese NRA. Most strategy games also don't have naval warfare or aerial combat so that's one thing off from a pacific theater immersion.

>>718897787
Didn't really have a choice, his country was still in ruins throughout the war.

>>718897732
almost definitely clandestinely kill everyone more competent and less politically wishy-washy than him- Sanjurjo, Mola, Primo de Rivera- before consolidating the Carlists and National Syndicalists into one single retarded ideologically compromised do-nothing faction that never seated a king or was particularly sharply fascistic while going around legbreaking everyone who wasn't a Catholic or held any loyalties to a smaller Spanish sub-identity, in the name of maintaining a somewhat limp cult of personality and hold on power where he didn't do much of anything other than engage in mass reprisals without amnesty or cannibalization (as Primo de Rivera might have) and designated only one successor who eventually died to Basque rebels because he handled them like a retard.

Also notable for listening to whispers from Abwehr head Canaris (a milquetoast conservative resistance plant who sabotaged German intelligence for basically the entire duration of WW2) that the war was absolutely 100% unwinnable and he DEFINITELY shouldn't help or join the Axis, leading directly to his making materiel demands that Hitler would not ever accept and to the western gate of the Med never closing due to no assault from the rear on Gibraltar with if not direct Spanish support then the military access to pursue

>>718898132
as above; he was a retard who doomed Spain and the composite-Falange to inevitable failure, collapse, democratization because he was an un-ideological superficially based cuckservative retard, whose actions also potentially doomed the Axis at large to a substantial degree. Basically, he's everything the Valkyrie plotters and their many less spectacularly failed predecessors wanted to be.

>>718888456 (OP)
Don't worry OP
ITALIA will soon dominate axis representation in WWII games

>>718889862
>that the Italian Army was incompetent etc.
How could the leader of Italy have know thay Italy was a mostly agrarian nation with piss poor industrial capabilities

>>718898675
The Army was but the Navy was a real cut above at the time, and the airforce was pretty decent

>>718888694
Italy was part of the entente against germany in ww1. The only reason they switched to being pro german is because the allies lied to them, just like they lied to all their colonies promising independence and then when they asked after the war they just said "what promise? ;:^j do something about it lol". In Italy's case they promised to let them steal a bunch of Austrian land, but after the war they only let them steal a little land.
When mussolini came around they wanted to steal more land, this time from africa, the allies didn't want that because they already stole most of it and italy was too late to the party so it wasn't cool anymore. Germany didn't give a fuck if the italians promised to fuck off and not defend austria from germany.

The Italians wanted conquest, the Spanish didn't. Spain was just concerned about killing all the commies in it's own borders. Playing both sides wouldn't work for Italy

>>718898530

Iron Storm lets you play through the initial invasion of China through all of WW2, with the game splitting off into alt history if you completely annihilate the fleet at Pearl Harbor and completely win at Midway without severe losses. Final part of the game in that route is invading the US West coast and eventually a final confrontation between Japan and Germany in India years after they get their "Man in the High Castle" routes.

>>718898675
Italy was set to be ready in '42, they jumped the gun because france was about to die and they wanted a piece of it

>>718898348
>I'd say the war in the east would develop into a deadlock where the Soviets are severy kicked in but not out
I strongly disagree, we even have examples of negotiated peaces being put on the table IRL, so I think that given the losses of basically every important part of the country, Stalin would not only be neutered, but would seek a peace deal, if only to simply stabilise his grip on power (which would be in massive jeopardy thanks to the abject failure to hold off the Germans.
The real risk would be the Germans just straight up not negotiating, because hey, they've already basically won.

>the Germans would have been capable of Pushing into the Urals, whilst having to garrison a gigantic swath of land, managing supply lines, dealing with partisans etc.
They wouldn't need to push into the Urals. They would already have everything they ever needed from the Russians, and if they just refuse to negotiate a peace, they'd just sit back and let them seethe in their mountains.
I also think you're downplaying just how ineffective the Soviet army would be at that point, especially given the loss of effectively the majority of the population and industrial capacity (as far as I'm aware, they hadn't moved the majority of their production east even at that stage)
And if there were partisans, uh, I don't think the Germans would care about liquidating a few villages (or cities) just to be safe.

>The German's are pretty much too streched thin, fighting on too many fronts, something has to give,
I disagree, I think at that stage, the German lines would solidify and become an actually effective version of the panter wotan line.

>>718890741
if the british had chosen peace then yes immediately

>but muh usa
not in the war until nearly 3 years later
>but muh soviets
not in the war until nearly 3 years later

If the british decided not to continuously tell hitler to go fuck himself, the war ends in 1939. It probably wouldnt have even been called world war II. Likely something along the lines of "The german war for danzig." which was the original rationale the germans used to declare on Poland (which caused the british and french to declare on Germany)

Its especially interesting to consider what a soviet war looks like in this timeline, where the Germans havent been bombed to shit by the RAF, the USA might not have been as interested in lend leasing communists, and the germans could mobilize all troops rather than having multiple fronts all across Africa, Europe, etc.

Of course, the british isle was practically unassailable for the germans, the british had a large empire with many conscriptable indians, and entirely no desire to see the emergence of a german hegemon in europe, so its moot, they would never have chosen peace.

>>718898348
>the Americans just straight march with the Soviets from the east.
Lmao

>>718899009
>Of course, the british isle was practically unassailable for the germans
Why? Just bomb the shit out of the island monkeys

>>718899525
Yes anon, they tried that.
No anon, it didn't work.

>>718899635
Damn.
Good thing I'm not a war advisor

>>718894237
>The good thing about them is that you don't need three full airforces, you can just have one and pivot
Nigga what

>>718899009
>if the british had chosen peace then yes immediately
>If the british decided not to continuously tell hitler to go fuck himself, the war ends in 1939.
It's worth remembering that the stated reason for Rudolf Hess taking a long range recon variant Bf 110 and personally piloting it to land in Great Britain was to bring a peace deal directly to Parliament that would shit in Churchills' mouth with its generosity and result in his humiliating removal by no-confidence or order of the king, with explicit information regarding Barbarossa and a possible offer for British participation.

When this failed and he was captured, officially, Hitler had no idea and it was declared Hess's personal flight of fancy. Unofficially, this was post-facto cope, Hess is theorized in some circles to have been outright tortured to death & replaced by a body double at some point postwar, and almost everything to do with his peace mission including his interrogation, any treaty draft and any of his alleged writings or statements postwar (if he was even alive rather than Weekend at Bernies'd to preserve the British from embarassment) is all classified until sometime in the 2040s. Isn't that weird?

>>718899005
You are massively underestimating Stalin's hold of the country at this point. Your assumption leans purely on the fact that the Soviets sue for peace of some kind. Which they won't as long as Stalin is in charge, with his government (military command, civil administration and party officials) evacuated either to the Urals (where majority of the Soviet industry has been relocated in) or beyond.
You are also massively underestimating the amount of resources and effort the Germans need to commit in order to hold and take effective use of what they have gained. I'd also like to point out that Moscow was heavily fortified, even more so than Stalingrad increasing the German losses.

It is true that the Red army was basically a horde army relying on human wave offensive, but the wacky thing about the Russians is that they have that meat to throw into the grinder.
Not to mention that operation Operation Husky (Allied invasion of Sicily also happens in 1943), while D-Day happens a year later. And this doesn't speak to some of the Allied which were never put into practice in our timeline, like the planned liberation of Norway. I accept the fact that in the scenario you present, the Germans should have more resources to repel these plans, but it is not a guarantee.

Once again, your scenario purely rests on the Soviets (Stalin) suing for peace, which is extremely unlikely to happen, especially with the western Allies still in the game, and lend lease flowing in.
>>718899134
Nice argument, lad.

>>718888694
>>718889862
>>718890227
I love a reason to post this.

Games for this feel?

>>718902183
Red Alert

>>718900414
>hey so what if Mussolini spent twenty years not politically consolidating worth a shit, not modernizing his military properly, backing all of the wrong horses instead of his main allies until the last minute and then fucked up a bunch when push came to shove and so did everyone else in the Axis while the Allies repeatedly got really lucky and every anti-war overture failed while every member of the serious ironclad opposition in American & Britain & Russia was put in prison with absolutely zero consequence or rebellion and then NOOKS?
it doesn't really sound real when you say it out loud, like this shithole timeline is the contrived althistory wank banged together by the other better main timelines' equivalent of a NAFOnigger

>>718888694
>>718889862
>What, stay nominally neutral?
Franco was fighting ussr.
Dont forget the psoe army was basically the ussr army
They ussr had one of the worst defeats ever on Republican Spain

They're just getting a head start on correcting one of history's mistakes.

>>718902582
>not modernizing his military properly
The air force was particularly tragic, they modernized it pretty extensively and Italy arguably had the best equipped ones....in the mid 30s. Then the revolution to monoplanes dropped and largely invalided all that, and no one in Italy wanted to remodernize

>>718902985
it is really interesting how they went full THE CULT OF AIR POWER LA FUTURISMO SISISISISISI and then just got completely bogged down in making biplanes and shitty monoplanes before then making like eight different better but more expensive Bf 109 light fighters or He 100/Ki 61 equivalent mediums with completely different artisanal builds and mostly shared-in-common features. They get the first really viable jet in the air, even if it's a motorjet, and then never make any kind of MiG-13 mixed power aircraft out of it. I mean, they tried with the Ca.183bis, but then the '43 armistice cucked it because like most good things Italy had in mind they were too slow. And then there's the Lince...

>>718888456 (OP)
>select your faction
>venice
time to fuck everyone