Thread 719183113

Dow1 multiplayer is an APM grindfest while in Dow2 you could actually win just by tactically outplaying your opponent

DowII Is the high IQ game

>>719183113 (OP)
I liked dow2 for the VA's and music more.
I liked dow1 for the base building and mass of units.

>>719183113 (OP)
I want Autarch Kayleth to sit on my face and call me a mon'keigh.

I kinda liked DoW2

>>719183113 (OP)
Obviously. DoW1 fags think build orders are strategy.

>>719183235

I agree with the VA, but DOW1 had more memorable unit lines.

>>719183113 (OP)
DoW II is closest to the actual tabletop game in feel

>>719184857
Units are far too durable in DoW2 for tabletop accuracy.

>>719183113 (OP)
Careful anon, /v/irgins won't like this TRVTH NVKE

>>719184323
Dow2 also has build orders though....

>>719183113 (OP)
yep

>>719183113 (OP)
I like both games for different reasons.
I feel like II's main problem is his name really. It departed so much from the first that many couldn't go past it. But goddamn isn't that campaign cool

>>719184759
I'm not a fan of the switch to 100% legit English VA in dow3
Relic had a nice stable pool of actors I wonder why it ditched them

>>719184323
Build order is a strategy
I don't care what game you play, if that doesn't play into the gameplay then it shouldn't be in the game
But it is in the game and it does affect how you open

DoW2 campaign > Dark Crusade

Search your hearts you know it to be true

>>719188819
>They Dropped it from 2 going to 3
Depressing really

>>719183113 (OP)
>muh apm
absolutely pathetic, it doesn't require a particularly high apm to play this game

>>719189069
Dark crusade is good for its time
Going forward a game should maintain its challenge while also providing progression
All 4 sc2 campaigns are good at this
Arguably the best

>>719183113 (OP)
Am I the only one that thinks WH40K works better when it's more tactical? Like I get wanting a total war warhammer 40k but honestly outside of the sheer numbers I don't think it'd work out quite as well.

>>719189190
If it weren't for the manual equipping and recruiting DoW1 could very well be an upkeep fighter like rise of nations

Dawn of war 1 = build huge army, spam the R button for reinforce

Dawn of war 2 = carefully choose army composition, positioning, and engagement tactics.

Dow2 is by far superior. Gameplay wise, but also feature set wise, like multiple campaigns, co op campaigns, and last stand

>>719189313
I think this 100% depends on the faction or play style, since the tabletop is designed in such a way so that one faction is bound to appeal to some preference
That said at its heart the thing that ought to set it apart is an ability to incentivize watching and managing the battles and not constantly screening the map like it's competitive sc2
And the end of the day you want to watch your dudes do stuff and that's alright

>>719184910
>Tabletop accuracy

We'd have units destroying each other the moment they came in range and in sight. Lets not have tabletop accuracy.

>>719189450
>multiple campaigns
Let's not pretend like the exact same missions but with the races swapped is remotely a "multiple campaigns" situation

>>719189463
I think that's probably why DoW II works out a lot better for me because you actually get to have your space marines engage in tactical behaviour like taking cover, moving to garrisons, etc. Plus the campaign is just really, REALLY fun to the point where I wish more RTS games just did the whole "Here's your squad of dudes, do missions and earn gear" type deal.

>>719183113 (OP)
>A game about microing your units with the depth of AoE2 crossbowmen and nothing more

>>719189450
>Dawn of war 1 = build huge army, spam the R button for reinforce
Only if the enemy let you capture all points without resistance.
And if he doesn't (aka you're not playing easy AI), you need to...
>carefully choose army composition, positioning, and engagement tactics

>>719189716
I prefer a little more depth but other than that it's true
>The fortifications system is threadbare
>The rosters are kind of small
>Controlling 2 (I'm coop) or 4 dudes a mission in essentially the same 20 maps gets repetitive the more you do non set piece battles, which is a shame when the more interesting missions in the OG DoW were the stronghold battles
Its good for what it is, but I get why everyone I try to play the campaign with drop it out of boredom or how slow it feels

>>719189480
i never understood the desire for tabletop accuracy. As long as it's close enough to the source material to where space marines don't die like dogs to an ork boy with a shoota, and the factions and races feel like they should for the game, and are balanced in a way to be fun to play, that's all you needed.

>play Dark Crusade
>Spess Mehreens on normal difficulty
>enemy ork faction has two bases at the start
>crushed under waves and waves of greenskins and killa kans
How the fuck do people beat this shit on hard mode

>>719189983
>carefully choose army composition
If the game lets me only build a limit of 2 tanks there's no careful choice
>Engagement tactics
Somewhat agree as some factions had impossible engagements due to pathing jank, maybe less so in Do definitive, but all 3 of your points are literally the bread and butter of modern sc2, which at least isn't janky as shit

>>719190229
Get honor guard, the warboss is a big fucking problem, but so are the lootas and the kans. If you can, just fucking ignore him while you get more honor guard so you can tank the opening shitstorm

>>719190175
I think ideally the issue of repetitiveness would be fixed with having more faction variety with Retribution SHOULD have had going with because each faction was actually pretty neat and had good mechanics. It's just a shame every campaign was essentially the same because if all six campaigns had more unique maps and were tailormade for each faction then it'd be amazing. Here's hoping DoW 4 fixes that.

Has anyone played the Codex Mod? Is it worth playing?

>>719190229
Two bases means two factions actually.
So they have double the max pop you do.
The way to beat it is you rush one base with your 5 honor guard and OP commander and the map turns into a 1v1 afterward which is impossible to lose.

Honestly the entire campaign is """balanced""" around the fact you do any of the two bases or strongholds with 4-5 honorguard so you survive the initial rush or so you can win before the AI drowns you from having it be a 2v1

>>719183113 (OP)
So you're saying DoW 2 is casualized and has no room for skill expression?

>>719190216
Space marines die like dogs to ork boys in terms of
>Raw power
>Raw numbers
>The infinitely greater value of a marine relative to an ork
As any game has showed, the only thing that should matter is that the marines
>Need to do cool shit
>Need to be balanced around the gameplay
And anyone whinging around
>Muh power fantasy
>Muh firstborn
Will always exist and should always be ignored

>>719190216
Some people REALLY want to play their uber powerful tabletop list on vidya, at which point just play the tabletop I say. Gladius got as close to modern parlance for how the factions feel to play and general balance between them all. Space Marines have the best heavy infantry but MUST play tall. Guard have the shittiest infantry but the scariest tanks and need to make it to the midgame to stand a chance. Orks get more resources through fighting, which lets them get more units, to fight more to get more resources in a positive feedback loop where the moment you're not fighting is the moment things are going badly. It's a good 4X that secretly might just be a turn based rts instead.

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blCBoXKCGl0
give me salami or give me death

>>719190216
It's the irony of 40k.
Tabletop is what GW cares about for sales and is what makes the most money, yet media often doesn't follow tabletop balance as GW wants it all to show off Marines more.

>>719190683
>track is so good modders end up bringing it back to the first game
Kino

>>719190550
This is 100% down to
>Slow pace/high ttk
>Extremely bare bones "tech tree"
The end result is we'll always see the same units from a given faction, but how much are or aren't deployed is where the "skill expression" comes in
That and the pinning/retreat dynamic was a mistake

>>719190807
BROTHA I AM PINNED HERE

>>719190859
SQUAD MORALE RESTORED

>>719190435
>If the game lets me only build a limit of 2 tanks there's no careful choice
as opposed to being allowed to build 4 infantry squads and nothing else?

>>719189480
>Tabletop accurate DoW
>Enter a game as Eldar
>The moment you load in you get a Victory screen

>>719190992
You're comparing it to dawn of war 2?
Less choice and minimal choice is like a hungry person and a thirsty person arguing over a piece of fucking maggoty hardtack
Its unsatisfying to eat and the maggots will only provide so much moisture

>>719183113 (OP)
The fact that people even compare DoW2 positively to DC is proof that the idea suits 40k (because let's face it, you average actual game of 40k is more on the scale of DoW II then DoW1/3/4).
THQ was going bankrupt during DoW II's dev cycle so DoW II lost a year of Dev time and relic was being instructed to do layoffs basically the whole time.

>People think the casualized experience of DoW2 is the superior game now
We've reached peak contrarian. Reminder this game was rightly shit on when it first came out and everyone hated it.

>>719183113 (OP)
Huh when did they add Retribution and Chaos Rising to everyone that owned DoW2? That's a good motivation to replay them.

>>719192021
>Reminder this game was rightly shit on when it first came out and everyone hated it.
Between the
>Primaris thing
>General response to new things
>Anytime a long standing series like resident evil comes out with an analogous "return to form"
There's always whinging
And you people just like to pretend that because you had other obnoxious vocal people bitching together at the time that means everybody agrees with you

>>719192021
This is wrong and you're a teenager pseudo-nostalgia posting about something you weren't there for.
The game sold really, really well, to the point it was THQ's sole financially viable product and was single-handedly keeping the whole enterprise going longer than it had any right to.
There was backlash from change-is-bad contrarians, there always is, but that was loud, impotent internet bleeting.

What 'killed' Dow II was GFWL, it was the denuvo of its time. People didn't like having to make an account, it was buggy and caused the game to run poorly on certain hardware and famously, there was like a two-week period where DoW II would not launch purely due to GFWL.
The whole thing links back into THQ going bankrupt because the only reason DoW II used GFWL was because THQ made a deal with M$ for a cash injection.

>>719192859
>Lost planet 2 is still offline dead
Don't remind me

>>719183113 (OP)
I genuinely enjoy watching DoW2 elite mp commentary. Which is insane because I generally hate that stuff.

DoW II with expansions is my fav.

Love the hero squads witrh optional troopers, loot, gear, leveling and other progression/RPG-ish elements. Arena horde mode is cool and with a lot of potential.

DoW1 is awesome, but it's less interesting design-wise.

>>719193286
Good commentary is good
Bad commentary is bad
A good commentator can make the most boring thing interesting

>>719193401
All 3 IG lords are frankly the gold standard for Warhammer
>Universe referential
>Meta referencual
>Meme/community acknowledgement
>salt n pepper in some badass lines and perfect delivery
And most importantly
>Damn cool

>>719193421
First enough I suppose considering I can watch people talk about woodworking without caring about it.
Although I also appreciate how much it is about jockeying for position in DoW2 with both sides usually being able to turn a losing game around even in the late stages.

>>719193592
Yeah, one-sided games are lame as shit to watch

>>719193573
Fucking love Lord General in Last Stand, just chilling in the backline with your guards sniping shit and plopping dowon turrets

>>719193592
*fair enough
fugg

>>719190229
I beat it when I was like 9 years old.
My strategy for every mission was: turret up and build a baneblade

>>719190550
No, DowII has a lot of skill expression, but the skill comes down to knowledge, going for right engagements, tactical positioning instead of (mainly) APM.
You should look at torpid's channel for high level 1v1s in dow ii it's like a chess battle

>>719193945
Turtle until you build a super unit. An RTS Staple.

>>719190229
Capture all the important territories that let you:

Pay requisition to build a base before you start
Have full elite retinue
More upgrades to commander
Hunker down to survive initial assault

If you can last those first couple of attacks during a stronghold assault, then you'll be fine. Dark Crusade frontloaded their difficulty with them. Soulstorm did the opposite where the missions got progressively harder as they went, but that was also due to some triggers not working properly and sometimes breaking the game.

>>719194040
Alright but the game being mechanically demanding on top of that doesn't mean there's less knowledge required. It's just a harder game, less casualized. It's possible for a game to require both knowledge and mechanical skill. It's not one or the other.

>>719183113 (OP)
>that guy who plays a deathless summoner sorceror in the last stand and makes wave 16/20 practically impossible
>that guy who plays a tellyporta mekboy with knockback and spams it everywhere, regardless of where his allies are
>that guy who was me

>>719190229
Space marines can do this quite well actually
>Turtle up with heavy bolters and rocket launchers (your long ranged high DPS options), and/or snipers since they have superior vision w/skulls
>Leave enough pop cap for assault terminators, an assault squad, 1 rhino, and the max of dreadnaughts (3 I think)
>Move command the rhino to find enemy bases, out an assault squad in it so when it blows up your assault squad can jump out and continue the search
>Find enemy HQ and start orbital dropping dreadnaughts and assault terminators on it

>>719194524
somehow my highest last stand score came when I was a level 7 ork mekboy just mindlessly teleporting while my two teamates carried
Speaking of.. I'm hyped for the new last stand

>>719189450
The autoreinforce shit was so gay and lame in DoW 1. The way DoW 2 solved it was kind of inelegant tho, as having to just retreat back to your base was really lame. I'd have preferred it if you could build reinforcement points/fortifications etc on the map where you could reinforce. Some of such elements already are in DoW 2 like Eldar webway gates but it is kind of barebones.

>>719194275
There is knowledge in Dow I obviously. And you have the added base building and build order for skill expression which I just don't find as engaging. Perhaps I am not being fair. Dow I was my childhood game and I do love it, but going into multiplayer it seems a lot more focused on APM compared to DoW II, granted that will obviously help there too.
DoW II is primarily focused on combat, using cover the right way, using abilities, retreating at the right time, knowing every engagement, flanking, breaking cover etc. most of which is either non existent or dumbed down in dow I

>>719194743
>Some of such elements already are in DoW 2... but it is kind of barebones
Is dow2 in a nutshell
Dow2 is a classic case of "if only relic did more
Unnecessarily dumbed down systems on a solid foundation

>>719183113 (OP)
DoW1 = Epic 40k
DoW2 = normal skirmish 40k
DoW3 = Herohammer

>>719194927
Yeah, the combat in that game works really well, I just find the scale of it and lack of actual options to fortify your positions etc to be very frustrating. The unit roster is also laughably small. All of the factions in it could use like half a dozen at least extra units.

>>719194805
I hate when base building is brought up
Basebuilding in dow sucks, the buildings are sometimes too big for the maps, and the amount of workers you get to manage the amount of buildings is dumb
I sorta alluded to this earlier but my ideal DoW:next should just be "make it more like rise of nations"
Since dawn of war 1 is more about out-killling you'r opponent's resource value than anything else

>>719194805
Imo feels like it is way more important in 2 to know when a fight is lost and you need to count your losses.
The impact of losing a few models, let alone entire squads is insane to the point where losing a fight can be good as long as the enemy took worse losses.

>>719195325
This is fairly relevant in dawn of war 1, if you're in the expansion/early phase and you risk a cheeky attack, the manpower drain of, say, a freaking 70 MP fire warrior could kill you

>>719183113 (OP)
>dow4 is going to be desperate attempt to recapture non-existent audience by going back to the roots
if the rts doesn't actively punish microfaggotry then im not interested

>>719195651
All good RTS's reward micro and macro
And all professional scenes are top level players punish macro by forcing micro and vice versa
This is a non argument, especially since the appeal of dawn of war games is always intimate combat with
>Your dudes

>>719195651
Dow4 looks so shit (visually).
I wish it looked more like dow2.
Even dow1 looks more appealing

>>719195972
DoW 1 is still using models from 4th ed 40k, and also has a much more muted color palette and more bombastic FX to make the killing more visually impressive. DoW4 looks a little too close to DoW3 in visual design, and you never want to look like DoW3.

>>719195972
On one hand I'm seeing a case of
>Coh3 looking kinda shittier than coh2
But gameplay wise the result is terrain and unit silhouettes look more readable
Couple that with snappier gameplay and honestly I don't care how bad the game looks, as long as it looks good enough while delivering strong gameplay
That said the dev's resume is remarkably lacking in provenance for me to judge whether or not the game will be any good

I prefer dow1 with dow 2 graphics and its music as an addition.

>>719188974
because of the mafia/union whatever that american voice acting has become

>>719183113 (OP)
>An RTS
>Where you don't do the Strategy part

funny how people say dawn of war 2 is tactical when it has a cell phone game tier automatic retreat button.

>>719190229
>Capture all the level 1-4 territories (which have a single base)
>build your honour guard
>Rush one of the enemy bases with your honour guard before they get very many units out. Once you've exterminated one, take your honour guard and all the soldiers you've built in the meantime and stomp the second base.
DC gets a bit boring since it's basically that fifteen times and then every stronghold has it's own flavour of bullshit. Mostly the Tau one, though.

>>719189069
i always go back and replay dark crusade every now and then but dow2 campaigns are mainly one and done.

>>719197141
>>Where you don't do the Strategy part
Who are you quoting?

Maybe play the game before saying anything, retard.