Thread 719729664

ITT: dishonest game design

I knew someone on discord who got filtered by these mushrooms and it completely boggled my mind.
I guess it's the difference between NPC's who don't experiment with controls vs soulful gamers full of whimsy

>>719729998
For me it was seeing that guy who forced ludonarrative dissonance being too stupid to cut vines

>>719729664 (OP)
Where's the yellow paint? How do I know where to go? What do I do? What button should I press?

>>719729664 (OP)
I wont lie, this was me at first

>>719730172
Did you leave the room before going back and figuring it out or did you figure it out before exiting?

>>719730172
How did you fix your British teeth?

>>719729664 (OP)
This could've been fixed with Soulslike player messages

>>719730239
I looked it up. I know i was retarded but this was 7 years ago, prease understandu

I miss when vidya was a niche hobby

>>719730658
I did a lot of fumb gamimg mistakes when I was 8 too

>>719729664 (OP)
i think we need to talk about dishonest thumbnail design first

>>719729664 (OP)
Now that you have a final chance to explain yourself before silksong, why did you do it dishonest mushroomposter?

>>719729664 (OP)
I've heard of people having trouble with this part but I don't remember it taking more than like a second to try pogo-ing after I jumped on them and saw they were bouncy...

>>719729664 (OP)
I don't rate this game very highly but it very naturally and seamlessly teaches the player about how the primary attack can be used to interact with objects and the environment. I can't fathom being in the low IQ brain who does not even try to bounce off the environmental obstacle when the destination seems to clearly ask for a high jump.

I couldn’t find Godhome for like 3 hours after that DLC came out

>>719731581
would you consider yourself to be smarter than a pigeon?

>>719731919
Barely, but yes.

>>719729664 (OP)
Nigger I figured out you can bounce attack the mush in like 5 minutes. Then I extrapolated (uh oh big words) and experimented to see if the same thing worked on spikes, and gosh guess what, it did!

>>719729664 (OP)
Surely that's one of the fun things about the game, figuring things out. People really get pissy about such things?

How was I supposed to know?

>>719732524
Your map tells you

>>719732007
then i'm sorry but you're just not cut out for a career in games journalism

>>719730112
No, that was Jonathan Blow, the designer of the witnesses. A game which is ironically full of obscure environmental puzzles.

>>719732524
You can't know until you try. But also the game had no death pits before you jumped so you had no reason to believe that you can't. When you jump, and you're fine and reach a new area, it also teaches you that there are no death pits in the game, and that anything you can fall into that will hurt you will be visible.

>>719729664 (OP)
>Search on bended knee for a single fallen item

>>719729998
Pogoing doesn't really lend itself to being discovered that organically if you're not thinking about the game that way. The most common things to pogo off of all do contact damage or are spike pits and it's not like up or down do anything other than looking up or down respectively up until that point... yes I fucking realize that this is practically Valve playtester tier thinking.
>>719731006
>FUCKING HMMMMMM
I'm not ashamed to admit that I thought that you were supposed to use this enemy to damage boost over.
>>719730112
>Literally too distracted and tunnelvisioned on complaining about "needing doublejump because all Metroidvanias are the same" to even realize that he isn't being gated by doublejump

>>719732784
Are you telling me johnathan blow got filtered by cutting vines in hollow knight? Common sense puzzle solving?

>>719729664 (OP)
dishonest game design is stuff like "hidden easy modes" imo. see: re4 tipping the scale in favor of low skill players, giving extra health and ammo or whatever but not being transparent about it
OP is describing "opaque" game design i think which is a different thing and more defensible

>>719731006

There is no indication that you can ever use pogo attacks on a thing that isn't an enemy.

I instantly tried this because I’m not a gaming noob. Ever heard of DUCKTALES, bro?

>>719732793
>But also the game had no death pits before you jumped so you had no reason to believe that you can't.

You do have a reason though. The reason is that you have played thousands of other games before this and 99% of them have death pits.

>>719733190
Hitting the gates required to enter dirtmouth causes knockback. With all the context cues it's not hard to figure out.

>>719732320
you are smart anon.

>>719733141

I would go even further and say that the only thing that qualifies as "dishonest" game design is when the game actually lies to the player about its own mechanics - which some games do.

>>719733439

My most hated example of this is Anthem, where your characters and weapons have tons of stats, but they are all illusory and don't affect anything. The only stat that matters is an abstract "power number" that is presented as if it's an estimation calculated from the other stats, but it's actually the only real stat and the other stats are horseshit.

>>719729664 (OP)
Ahhh... this thread is like an old friend.

>>719733190
You can hit spikes while standing, it makes an impact sound and pushes you away. I think there's some early treasure chunks specifically placed to alert the player. It's not a massive leap of logic to believe most players would experiment with it.

you can do this literally 30 seconds after pressing new game

>>719733891
You have no reason to think you can.

>>719732524
It’s the cliff from the intro. You never need to jump down it.

>>719731006
>>719733190
>>719733728
the "dishonesty" meme comes from the fact that for the previous three hours you're never asked to use your sword as a platforming tool, and that mushrooms push you back by a negligible amount if you're on the ground - and it only becomes valuable if you're in mid.air
It's objectively unintuitive, regardless of whether you figured it out immediately or not.

>>719733965
>nooooo why isnt the game locking me down inside a room with text that displays YOU CAN DO A DOWNWARDS ATTACK ON CERTAIN OBJECTS TO PROLONG YOUR JUMP, WE CALL THIS POGO JUMPS
>then they lock you in another room and display PERFORM 3 POGO JUMPS TO CONTINUE POGO JUMPS: 0/3

>>719733625
For me it's Vermintide 2's crit/headshot power.
It implies that it increases the damage overall, but in reality it only boosts the onus damage provided by the crit/headshot. It's a massive noob trap that is such an opportunity cost there's no reason to ever choose it.

>>719734223
the game literally displays all of its major mechanics in the tutorial, and whenever you gain a new one you get a control prompt
Pogo jumping is a core mechanic that is never taught to you
it's poor game design, no matter how you spin it

>>719734198
Except it's not. The game has repeated points which force you to destroy environments, and doing so always causes knockback.
The tutorial itself has one.

>>719731006
LMAOOOOO

This thread is not about hollow knight, it's about the fake thumbnail for a video that does not exist designed as rage bait.

>>719729998
kek
flashback to the twisted metal guy getting filtered by dread’s breakable terrain

>>719733439
what are some blatant examples of this?

Im trans

>>719734935
we know, sista

>>719733965
you would have a point if this game type was not a metroidvania
world traversal in these types of game is a predicated on experimenting with the world environment and with the enemies to see where you can go and where you cannot
hitting things randomly and jumping around is the bread and butter in this game, and even if you are not doing it on a purpose you will definitely accidentally pogo over something during gameplay because you are striking downwards while jumping, and your brain should notice what happens and try to apply it on purpose

>>719729664 (OP)
My mind was blown when I learned that the British government still uses amalgam fillings as standard, because it's marginally cheaper. Real third world shit.

>>719733141
>re4 tipping the scale in favor of low skill players, giving extra health and ammo
thats not its keeping the shitters playing

>>719734935
>plays HK once

>>719734198
If there is knock back and a challenge requires distance the rest is smooth brain moments. The only reason why you need to be handheld is because you don't experiment/ risk failure
>>719734312
Like this guy.

>>719729998
I got filtered by the shroom pogos and had to ask my discord gf (female) for help
but this was practically my first 2d game so I didn't know what I could and could not expect from the game.

>>719733728
You can acquire the steady body charm after you get dash and equipping it would mean that you won't get knocked back when attacking in a lot of situations.

im about to destroy this thread
DEFEND THIS

>>719735406
>The only reason why you need to be handheld is because you don't experiment/ risk failure
it has nothing to do with experimentation
by that point in the game, you never had to attack downwards while in mid-air. You were never asked to do it to progress. It's not an intuitive mechanic, most games do not have such a thing.
You playing ducktales as a child is irrelevant.

>>719736019
Every non-retard figured it out before it was needed. Most retards did as well.

>>719736207
people could only figure it out before the mushrooms by sheer accident, because at no point in the game prior to do that you need to experiment with your base mechanics and controls to solve any issues
And the mechanic is itself unintuitive, input wise.

>>719736368
It's not. You are stupid.

>>719735894
I can't.
It filtered me as a kid. I kept trying to jump while pressing down so hard.

>>719729664 (OP)
You don't even have to strike the mushrooms with the nail to figure out they bounce you upwards. You just hop onto them and they'll bounce you up a little bit. Surely this should be enough for your brain to realize you should try to extend the jump somehow.

Beating some of the absurd bosses without pogo jumping sounds like hell.

I know they never explicitly explain pogoing but I was able to figure it out.
The genre is about experimenting with your options. I don't think its a big deal to not explain it and let people figure it out on their own

>>719736019
Are you actually autistic or something? Why the fuck you didn't try all different things? You have attack, jump and spell buttons and 4 directions, that's it. Why you didn't experiment? Is this a "Learned helplessness"? Any child would try to attack down in the mid air when he encountered these shrooms.

>>719736019
>It's not an intuitive mechanic
Probably one of the first skills I learned in this game and it didn't explain shit to me. Do you not keep mental notes of how you move in games? Do you need to be taught tech that's slightly more advanced than the basic shit?

>>719735553
Zoomers need to be gassed

Do people really not just try things in games?
They don't give explicit instructions so you just stop pressing buttons and give up?

how could i have known bros?
it's not like jumping on the mushrooms bounces you upwards or anything
and what did the game mean when the mushrooms bounced me upwards but not quite enough to reach the upper platform?
the game in which hitting something with a nail pushes you back slightly?

it's a mystery

Yhis thread template is like 7 years old and there are still people acting like it's the first time they're seeing it.

>>719737828
There are people who have zero creative thinking, and are unable to experiment unless specifically instructed to. Reminds me of how some play testers got stuck in the ady Boyle's Last Party, because once they got into the disguise and entered the manor, the guards told them not to go upstairs so they didn't. They didn't know what they were supposed to do. Yes, they obeyed what a random guard at the bottom of the stairs told them, in a game about sneaking and magic.

>>719732784
>>719733035
Blow does not play games with an open mind he is looking to shit on them from the first second he plays.
Good game dev though.

>>719738439
Literally unsolvable. Only the top 1% in Mensa can finish this game.

>>719729664 (OP)
At the beginning of Undertale you have to fight some goat or something and every time you attack you can see its healthbar lower a tiny bit, and you get a unique dialogue. I wanted to see all the unique dialogue without killing it, so I kept track of how much damage each hit does and made sure to stop before it would kill.
Except the game was programmed so that the "last" hit you do does extra damage, so the game tricked you into killing it. Very dishonest to change damage values just so that you can berate a player for being evil.

wtf do i do?

>>719730658
everyubody is a shitter when they are young, thats normal.
if you are a shitter as an adult... boy....

>>719738834
press a button

>>719738960
but the game never told me that, how was I supposed to know?

>>719738834
Try pressing the pause button

>>719734198
hows live below 100 IQ?
I figured out pogoing before even entering hollownest. literally just pay attention and make synaptic connections you retard

hmm how to reach that maddening height? it's a mystery, we just don't know

Seeing how there’s a comic about this and there’s anecdotes, this actually being a big issue for a lot of people feels strange. Beating Hornet without pogo sticking seems kinda annoying.

>>719729998
>99.9999% of indies are shovelware tier where attacking anything that's not an enemy will not do anything
>It's the player's fault for assuming it was another shovelware
Nha fuck off, it's like making fun of people not trying to open every doors in Call of Duty or other slop where you can't interact with anything. Games are less interactive than they were 30 years ago and people simply adjusted to it.

>>719736019
having a
>do this, faget
moment would kill the joy of discovery. Having to hand hold the minority of chromosome burglars to whom
>you never had to attack downwards while in mid-air.
translates to never attacked downwards would neuter the feeling people got when the figured it out themselves.

>>719729664 (OP)
THIS SHIT DROVE ME CRAZY

>>719729664 (OP)
Most game designs since gen 7/ when dlc became the norm, not the acception

>>719729664 (OP)
Maybe I'm weird, but as soon as I could take control I attacked left/right/up/jump+down to see what I could do
So I knew right away you could attack down
Then when exploring, I attacked down to hit an enemy and saw you bounced. So I knew you could bounce by attacking down
So by the time I got to these things, I knew I could probably bounce from attacking down at them.

never played hollow knight and never will but I don't see anything wrong with this

>Game entirely based on DDR timing to dodge big flashy attacks
>Oh Actually this one requires some bullshit nonsensical tech to dodge
>Yeah and once you figure it out the boss is essentially a DSII level cakewalk. Like, Demon of Song grade easy.
>Anyway this is the pinnacle of skill and a good time and anyone who beat it and says it is ass fucking sucks actually.

>>719740179
I forgot where but I remember this was shown in either the manual, back of the box, or elsewhere.

Someone actually couldn't figure out that mushroom part? What a fucking retard

>>719740179
better subscribe to nintendo power fucker

>>719740713
I can't remember if I played the game and figured it on my own, or if I saw people complaining about pogoing and recalled that when I started to play the game.
I think the only part I realized myself was that you could pogo off spikes, well before I even saw the shrooms.

>>719734552
It's cringe that most of the thread are filled with gullible algorithmically controlled newfags that don't realize that the image is fake.

>>719729664 (OP)
>RPG Creed where you can play a non-canon character and playthrough.
ngl Shadows adding a "canon" mode, aka the standard of AC games prior Origins, was the only good thing.

thoughts on making the game private only for me and not share it on steam family? dude said he was going to pirate it anyway and i don't want my sessions ruined because someone else is playing it

I can't fathom being this stupid.

Why didn't you save him, /v/?

>>719732793
Majority of the genre has no death pits. The only one I recall that did was the second half of The Messenger and that's about when I quit playing because the game sucked ass as a Metroidvania and would sometimes have bottomless pits and sometimes not.

>>719737280
nigger, I'm sorry I didn't grow up playing bing bing wahoos.

>>719738621
He's such a fart huffer holy shit. His eyes exude it