Thread 720093605

Multiplayer is where the money is. See eSports.

TA-likes are best. Have any recent games even tried? E.g., having a commander is fun and pivotal. Lots of units is more strategic than SC likes. https://urc.tauniverse.com/tasc.htm.

I don't personally want to play campaigns, but I also think that RTS popularity is as simple as good advertising. It fulfills a fantasy with money/economy and large scale battles (when made properly), and already has the best, most fulfilling casting in all of gaming (see Gyle for SupCom FAF).

SupCom FA(F) is an example of the best in the genre because of huge variety and familiarity of units and buildings (frigate, destroyer, sub, battleship, etc.). This is also an example of it's enjoyability in casting.

At me.

>>720093605 (OP)
didn't an indie game took over the FaF playerbase. Forgot it's name

>>720093697
BAR? No those faggots have been claiming to take the playerbase for ages and it never happens, they always come crawling back to the king.
Maybe sanctuary shattered sun will do it, as it has the backing of the FAF team and is essentially going to be FAF but multithreaded

>>720093605 (OP)
Giving people money for playing video games ever should be a crime. Like death penalty shit.

Seraphim best faction.

>Support commander teleports to your nuke defense.
I can only, like, 29 minute, but nuking a TP'd base is one of the most fun and successful things in gaming.

>>720094967
It's gotta be easy putting ads in computer games. I don't know why we haven't seen free games with ads after every match, and a sub and/or game purchase to shelve ads.

>>720093605 (OP)
what is that opening statement? supcom couldnt get funding for a sequel without a publisher that demanded they make it retarded.
are you saying supcom was printing money but it just wasnt good enough for suitniggers?

>>720097575
>are you saying supcom was printing money
What makes you say that?

>>720093605 (OP)
Me make 50 kraptors and attack move

Every single RTS/RTT that has sold well has been mostly singleplayer focused.
Esports are cancer no matter the genre, fags like those need to go back to sports and stay there forever like the niggerbrains they are.

Imagine being desperate for competition that you do it by throwing around a ball or playing with a digital toy.
Mental illness, compete in your job and in trying to get a woman, not a fucking game you pathetic fuck.

Every single sportsnigger need to be shot

>>720098563
Define "single player focused". Who wants to play most devs' campaigns?

Also, it's easy to make good mechanics of you know what to make. Then it's fun for everybody. (I would definitely like to see a F/T person RTS, though that's not necessary.)

I love SupCom aesthetics but man, the gameplay sucks soooo much

>anal unit caps
>retarded enemy AI
>all three fractions are 99% the same reskinned units with minor exceptions

>>720098563
You seem completely normal and not insane.

>>720093697
Yeah BAR has like 10x the playerbase (still not much compared to giants of the genre, which in turn is fucking nothing compared to popular genres). FaF is dead and forgotten.

>>720099296
Just played a BAR today, my teammates were a little retarded but it was good fun, best RTS game out there atm.

>>720099063
I don't think the unit caps are a problem, not even in aerial matches.

The AI in general isn't retarded, but if you want to circle in place or circle strafe, you can't, or really well.

The faction differences are enough to vastly vary outcome, e.g., experimentals.

>>720093605 (OP)
>TA-likes are best. Have any recent games even tried?
Yes and it's good

RTS is a niche genre, RTS games require more effort and investment of time from its players to learn the systems before they can start enjoying the games. Publishers want to dumb down RTS games to appeal to a wider audience and core RTS gamers dont want to play dumbed down RTS games. RTS are also mainly a PC thing and PC gamers are a minority.

RTS is definitely not where the money is.

>>720095723
This is how I feel when I manage to get four ilshavoh next to an ACU without the enemy knowing. Seraphim is definitely the most fun.

>>720099063
>>all three fractions are 99% the same reskinned units with minor exceptions
There's actually a shocking amount of identity despite all lthe factions having so much surface similarity. You end up with a lot of naunce. Yeah sure every T1 is a tank, an arty, and a scout and/or kbot. But there's still a big difference in how you actually use them.

Cybran T1 mantis are an absolute menace and sidelines their artillery not because it has so much range but just because their mobility is so much better than other factions' t1 tanks that you can position them and swarm enemies in ways that other factions just can't replicate. They play a lot like zerg in starcraft despite their mechanics being so similar to other factions.
Seraphim's T1 artillery is so versatile that it ends up taking up a lot of the role that would typically be given to the T1 tank because their so effective in the indirect fire support that they become almost good at direct fire. That it hovers means there are strategies available to the seraphim that aren't available to other factions, again, despite having the same basic description of "T1 indirect fire support".
Aeon is like the opposite of cybran but similar. It also relies more on its tanks than its artillery, but rather than being because it has so much versatility, its because its obscene range and awkward spinal mounted weapon, if you're good enough at positioning, you can take engagements that just shred other factions' T1 line up. Highly rewarding but highly punishing.
UEF, being UEF, is so excruciatingly middle of the road that you can define all the other factions based on their relation to it. It ends up with its own weird identity which makes sense as the "I just started what is supreme commander" faction as far as T1 goes.

>>720093605 (OP)
SupCom is shit
BAR looks cool but its main gimmick is "LOOK 40v40 BATTLES!"
No reason to upgrade from Total Annihilation still, it runs perfectly fine on modern systems and doesnt even need so much as a widescreen resolution hotfix or anything, it was just so well coded out of the box.

>>720101564
>BAR looks cool but its main gimmick is "LOOK 40v40 BATTLES!"
Those are special events
>No reason to upgrade from Total Annihilation still, it runs perfectly fine on modern s
Come on granpa you're drunk

>>720093605 (OP)
RTS are not for multiplayer. The mechanics are not compatible. Fuck off.

>>720100813
>RTS is a niche genre, RTS games require more effort and investment of time from its players to learn the systems before they can start enjoying the games.
A 5 or 10 minute tutorial would be plenty to get started.

>Publishers want to dumb down RTS games to appeal to a wider audience and core RTS gamers dont want to play dumbed down RTS games.
I'm not even sure that's the case. Games like DOW 3 and Grey Goo have fundamental problems. I think it applies to all published RTS games -- have any even had SupCom zoom out?

>RTS are also mainly a PC thing and PC gamers are a minority.
Like 10 years ago, the PC gaming demographic was 900M.

I listed in the OP some things that make RTS universally fulfilling. Do you have anything to say about those?

>>720097575
Quite literally, yes. SupCom had great sales numbers. Squeenix saw Starcraft 2 and demanded changes because SupCom's numbers weren't Starcraft 2 numbers.

>>720102187
Was Chris Taylor that much in a bind that the only publisher he could find was SE of all companies? It was a different time and hot on the heels of the AAA cannibalization but before the resurgence of AA and self publishing.. But jesus christ you could have seen SC2 coming from a mile away. is that really what Chris wanted for the game?

CoH and its children are the way to go for RTS games to have more widespread relevance. The average player wants thrilling micro where the map actually feels real and matters physically, and while they want capturing resources and managing them to be a core part of the game without the strangehold it has on the flow of gameplay in other RTS titles.

I'd say a new game in that style with a reasonable download size and price would do pretty well.

RTS are meant to be in depth and action like. Its the blend of strategy and reaction in a sandbox. They aren't made to be for retards. They must be even harder. If you disagree, you were never meant to play them. Fuck off to Bloons.

Why would I play this shit when Zero-K exists?

>>720102361
Maybe it wasn't as easy as downloading UE 5, but I'm sure it would have been easy enough to find guys he knew, to work for reduced or deferred pay.

>>720102962
>in depth
Yes.
>action like
No, and fuck you.

>>720093950
The experimentals are shit compared to Supcom. They're barely any different from the normal T2 units.

>>720102096
>A 5 or 10 minute tutorial would be plenty to get started.
RTS games typically require multi tasking skills and like 90% of people arent good at that, a large portion of people who arent good at multi tasking get stressful when they are expected to do it, it is very stressful for some people.
>Like 10 years ago, the PC gaming demographic was 900M.
900M is a fair amount of people but close to 3 billion play games on their phones, phone games are "where the money is now", and phones are not good for RTS

>I listed in the OP some things that make RTS universally fulfilling. Do you have anything to say about those?
Most of the things i talk about are particularly relevant for multiplayer.
>The effort and time investment for a player to get started
>multi tasking skills particularly matter in multiplayer and not so much in single player
>dumbing down the game makes multiplayer less interesting and makes the try hard RTS fanatics not even want to bother

I do think that its possible to make success with niche RTS games, but focusing on Esports is going for a niche crown in an already niche corner of the gaming market. I think that if developers want to make money with RTS they should try making an easy to learn difficult to master type game that is focused on a large and interesting campaign which has an option to play multiplayer as well but not necesarrily have the whole game balanced around multiplayer from an Esports perspective and more of a fun perspective. The most common forms of multiplayer in RTS games for casual gamers is co-op and big team games.

>>720102361
SupCom2 is such a pandora box. It rarely ever even gets mentioned.
It's not like C&C4 where everyone agrees to not talk about it and pretend it doesn't exist, more like you genuinely forget that it exists.
The skill tree sounded kind of cool, like getting a tank with 3 cannons instead of one but in practice it felt like it only did like 30% or something. Everything felt like a wet sock.
I wish someone backported the Magnet, this thing was such a retardedly great idea.

>>720093950
>everyone who plays BAR is the same and all spit on Supcom
can you people only think in absolutes?

>>720102361
the market at the time was focusing hard on consoles and RTS games were getting buried hard
it was a wonder that supcom2 even got made

>tfw fav RTS is Zero-k
>Its too complicated for casuals
>regular RTS nerds dont like it because it has unit building repeat commands which they think is dumbed down macro, and AI for units to try and dodge attacks on their own which they think is dumbed down micro
my experience peaked playing that game but im too lazy to get into bar, the units dont seem as interesting as zero-k, idk.

>>720104994
the graphics and menu jank also turns people off
shame, gameplay is top

>>720104994
>>720105147
It's just a shitty SupCom ripoff. Zero reason to play it.

>>720102991
How long does it take to find a match?

>>720104138
MP should be the fundamental gameplay development, because that simultaneously fulfills SP.

>focusing on Esports is going for a niche crown in an already niche corner of the gaming market.
MP games are the most played games. See CoD and LoL. I get that RTS is fundamentally challenging, but I'm not even sure it needs to be.

>>720105473
here is your (You)

>>720105473
SupCom was barely 2 months old when Zero-K was first in development.

>>720105846
Yeah copycats work quick to cash in on the latest hit.

>>720093605 (OP)
Focus on e sports killed the RTS genre
Campaign is a false savior.

The truth is Skirmish against bots.
Anons will get mad but it’s the truth.

>>720106030
>cash in
By making a free mod for Spring, with ideas that weren't influenced much by SupCom at all?

>>720093605 (OP)
How do I get good at RTS? I never could control more than one group of units effectively.

>>720106543
The question would be more like what RTS do you want to be playing
They're wildly different and ask for lots of different skills

>>720106334
>Skirmish against bots.
An autist's pick. And autists already have better options like city builders or factory builders that give them more stuff to play with. Definitely not bestseller material.

>>720107024
Games like C&C.

>>720106543
Then it's already over for you. Consider playing hack&slash or bullet hell if you're that hopeless at multitasking.

>>720108078
>C&C
Spam shit fast, C&C aren't much more than spam and overwhelm
Actually now that I think about it, any C&C is all flash little substance. But they're fun for SP.

>>720106543
If you want to start by having fun first then get DoW Definitive Edition. It's the party game of RTS. There's really not much of depth in it when you're playing for reals but sure has SOUL and it's fun. Squads are easy to move around and it's 40k, and visually it's a treat. It's a really good starting point for people.

AoE2/4 are GOAT. They're about building and economy as much as microing units, but not so much that is absurdly overwhelming. And the campaigns are awesome in 2.

SupCom/BAR are different in the fact that you must think like a grey goo, constantly expanding. BAR has incredible QoL controls that are so easy to learn and to play that makes it look like an action game and has PvE coop modes that are a decent challenge and fun.

Starcraft 1/2 is THE sweatlord game. It's all about timing and more of a rythm game than strategy. They're very constrictive and have almost no room for player expression. Don't start with SC unless you're playing the campaigns of the first which are indeed, very fucking good as far as videogames go.

Company of Heroes is a more hardcore version of DoW and an incredible experience if you're into WW2. It is the best RTS that Relic has ever done.

Call to Arms: Gates of Hell is the most unique RTT you can get your hands on. A mix of RTS with 3rd Person Shooter and simulation that just werks. all the Men of War saga and dev learning went to GoH and it's an awesome must try.

If anything else, look into this chart, this is pretty honest and good for recommendations

>>720104138
>and phones are not good for RTS
>what is Machines at War

>>720093605 (OP)
>Multiplayer is where the money is. See eSports.
That's a good joke, that's two good jokes.
>TA-likes are best. Have any recent games even tried?
That might be one of the most copied ideas of the decade. Sanctuary: Shattered Sun is yet another one in the making, for example.
>RTS popularity is as simple as good advertising
If marketing is all you have, you're in for a disappointment. Going for multiplayer appeal requires flawless post-launch support if you want more than a fotm.

>>720093605 (OP)
https://youtu.be/NOWD-rumn-8?t=275

>>720108562
Thanks, but I don't really need new games to play or a point to get into RTS, rather advice on how to git gud in C&C-like games. Red Alert, 8 bit armies, Tempest Rising and so on.

>>720109343
There's a reason why I didn't mention C&C games and that's because they're actually very shallow
But I can tell you what I remember about the og C&C and Tiberian Sun and more recently and the best one being Tempest Rising

The OG C&C games are spammy and have not that much of a depth. Just poke and overwhelm all over. Tempest Rising is a bit better though because units do have abilities and it is kinda spammy but not as ridiculous as the forementioned +8bitArmies. But the opening is almost always the same, get 2 harvesters and harass the enemy as much as possible on their natural expansions awhile expanding yourself with harvesters. Controlling lots of units isn't that much of a hassle if you do groups like Tanks on Ctrl+3 always and so on. You get used to it. Maybe. I don't, because the interface is clunky and I do not like them that much. TR had the potential but didn't add superweapons or more variety to their pool. They're more action oriented kind of RTS where everything has low HP but the cost just keeps things rolling around, hence the spammy kind of gameplay. TR doesn't have infantry crushing IIRC and that's actually not so bad, and lots of QoL that were needed for the format.

>>720106543
1. just like with every genre, there is shit that no one should be playing; stop playing shit games. mono-resource strategy (command and conquer) is shit because the entire game collapses to economy control. gook-click (starcraft) is shit because it's age dependent and will give everyone regardless of age RSI (repetitive strain injury) e-sports shit is exactly that, because it's tuned for a fractional percent of the player base who you will never meet but for some reason, the developers think you have to play against them through the patch notes.
stop playing shit games.

2. reduce game speed from "fastest" to something slower (if possible) to give yourself more time to react appropriately. build memory and train yourself to have correct responses to situations as you see them happen. gradually increase game speed as you gain competence.
slow the fucking game down.

3. read the unit descriptions and patch notes for standard RTS fair like "damage types versus armor types" so you can understand why that apparently useless unit you never build actually just stomped your assault.
READ THE MANUAL NIGGER! READ NIGGER, READ!

Absolute perfection.

>>720110490
That looks really cool.

>>720093605 (OP)
>tfw basebuilding.

>>720093605 (OP)
>eSports
lol
lmao

>>720111765
Problem? SP < MP.

>>720093605 (OP)
>where money is
So esports and betting, because its the same shit mechanically and psychologically as gambling on horse racing or football.
No, fuck you, fuck SC2, and any company that panders to esports bullshit.

Single-player with multiplayer options. An interesting campaign, good and hard strategic challenges and puzzles. Id even go to say customisable units (like being able to put a minigun onto HMMWV instead of .50 and TOW). Basebuilding is optional (look at World in Conflict or EndWar), but very welcome. And it helps a lot when the game has good music, memorable characters, good environmental design, and LORE (C&C Tiberian Sun, RA2, C&C3).

>>720113020
SC has lore too, that's part of the reason it's so popular. Koreans just picked it up.

>>720100785
Buy an ad.

You fuckers will say that esports will save rts and you're wrong.
More intelligent fucks will say that have good campaigns will save the rts genre but they're still wrong.
The best way to popularize any basically fine rts is to have great modding support and an easy to use custom map designer.

>>720114224
middle and bottom points really, imagine if RA3 was easily moddable

>>720114274
>RA3
I fucking hate its artstyle and mechanics. What a load of garbage AND on top of that a precursor to C&C4. If you have played both, you can see how RA3 was a foreshadowing of 4's travesty.

>>720104326
It got a 360 port iirc. That's why everything got smaller

>Game has a tight viewpoint and no zoom out.
>Units have no moving while attacking.

the RTS problem is the exact opposite to "it needs e-sports for any particular game to be successful".

When compared to FPS multiplayer games, the tolerance for mistakes in RTS games is brutal. The player is often in an Elo-based, 1v1 environment which has extremely high levels of personal responsibility for game outcome, and demands high performance for the best experience. In the most popular FPS/TPS experiences, personal responsibility for performance is comparably much lower. The most popular game modes typically have dozens of respawns, dozens of players and minimal wind-up time between lives. Even in games battle-royale games and competitive 5v5 games, engagements are quick, brutal, and matches are found instantaneously, and solo modes are (often) not preferred compared to team modes. The solution I hereby posit: an instantaneous, drop-in, drop-out game mode. Multiple if not infinite respawns. Dozens of players. Outcomes of direct engagements are cut by about half the time of a typical RTS. In other words, an RTS version of battlefield - dump dozens of players at set points on an enormous map, let them build bases incredibly quickly, but also be wiped quickly by other players. Let this happen a few dozen times over the course of a map. Let players adopt different roles with varying degrees of pressure, that can be played for varying degrees of pressure - players desiring a high-performance, brutal role can play the frontlines. Players that want a relaxed experience of course can jump in on the backlines, playing either economy or artillery. For the hardcore people, 1v1 modes can be included also, but yeah. How to pull it off I'm not specifically sure - maybe commander style units can be spawned in on friendly control points, or beacons set by friendly players. Maybe a vast AI war is already waging, and spawning in lets you control an already battling group of AI units.

Thanks for reading my blog.

>>720093605 (OP)
>Multiplayer is where the money is.
that's right, and if you're a businessman in a suit trying to make big bux off video games, fuck off and kill yourself instead

>>720116604
Oh, and also more bells and whistles for good player performance. Action games now have multiple layers of this beyond simply seeing blood when a player is hit. Hitmarkers are ubiquitous for a reason, and RTS needs an equivalent (see the number pop ups in wargame), but also killfeeds, bonuses for sniping commands units, audio and visual feedback for performance (eg, double kill, monster kill etc). Unlock trees for unit variants, skins etc. There's already such a richly detailed template for this, that it's shocking that no RTS games have tried any of this already - I imagine every developer has been far too bogged down in sniffing SC2's farts since it's the only successful RTS, yet there's a wealth of successful games from other genre that have had hardly any common, standard design features incorporated.

just make a fun game
its that simple

>>720093605 (OP)
>Multiplayer is where the money is. See eSports
Every new RTS that goes "muh esports muh streamers muh sponsorships" fucking fails and dies
The MONEY is in the PLAYERBASE
The PLAYERBASE comes from a combination of
>FUN GAMEPLAY
>VARIETY of GAME MODES
>MAP EDITOR
>BOTH SINGLE AND MULTIPLAYER
and the piece de resistance
>EMPHASIS ON *CASUAL*, NOT COMPETITIVE MULTIPLAYER
Every single successful "esport", with the semiexception of league of legends, grew from grassroots.
>a game was released
>it had fun, deep gameplay
>it grew a casual playerbase
>some players really autistically loved it and wanted to be better and better
>these players organised their own tournaments
>casual players become aware of competitive scene, and become the audience
>growth happened organically
Age of Empires 2 literally brought itself back from the dead, purely on the strength of its fun + deep gameplay, its casual playerbase, and its grassroots player-led tournament scene
Meanwhile Age of Empires 4, which is a perfectly good game, isn't the more popular competitive game - because it put emphasis on muh tournaments blah blah
For competitive play, you need a casual audience
For a casual audience, the game needs to be fun to play, in lots of different ways
Cheat mode is to permit UGC maps with a robust map editor + co-op campaigns + team PVP games
>why is brood war more popular than SC2 despite SC2 being released 3 times and heavily blizz sponsored

>>720117590
>>EMPHASIS ON *CASUAL*, NOT COMPETITIVE MULTIPLAYER
I don't think this is a quality distinction for common knowledge. Which is SupCom?

RTS is saved

>>720114224
>The best way to popularize any basically fine rts is to have great modding support and an easy to use custom map designer.
And you're wrong too, partially.

>>720117861
FAF is purely competitive ranked matchmaking.

>>720118038
Party vs. party is the fundamental gamemode in RTS, just like it is in FPS.

>>720118038
>>720118404
Also, 1v1 is how you balance every other archetype. You can't do it in reverse, at least not easily.

Casual is a laziness problem. Nothing is more exciting and objectively fun than real players.

>>720117998
>Look at last devlog
>"We're making it so all production from all factories spawns in frontline factories lmao"
>"Also we'll have an arbitrary connection system so you can't abuse proxy bases, eliminating entire proxy base play in the process"
They're retards.

>>720116604
So, a sandbox MMORTS?

A great developer can make an RTS player pick up an FPS and love it beyond all his favorites.
A bad developer can make a universal lover of WW2 hate and cast aside his WW2 game.

If you understand this, you understand why RTS genre is dead today and why getting another to do a campaign-focused RTS or a multiplayer-focused RTS will change nothing about its condition.

>>720118715
>Nothing is more exciting and objectively fun than real players.
how come women rather fuck a stick of plastic than you then?

>>720117998
Did it have no air units?