Thread 723064326

How are you supposed to survive as a dev in the current market?

>>723064326 (OP)
Just add big bouncy boobies.
Thats all you gotta do.
Yes, even if you're afraid of them.

>>723064326 (OP)
just make stuff that doesnt suck shit.
idk what the fuck is up with people trying to "game" the system when 99% of indie slop is just straight up dogshit
the standards aren't particularly high, so if you have 2 braincells to rub together, you should be able to make a successful game
the problem is that most devs are really fucking stupid and uncultured because they grew up consuming comic books and cartoons and other childrens entertainment. People who willingly study and expose themselves to the higher arts like painting or literature (or even cinema) don't usually go into game development.

Megabonk has a good gameplay loop though? People don't just randomly play games 20+ hours because it's 'haha funny'.

The fuck is megabong.

>>723065005
The most recent algo-pushed FotM.

Join a company. If indie devs were actually any good they would be working for a known company fixing vidya instead of toiling in obscurity to make "pixelshit nostalgiagame with weirdly modern lighting and story about depression #2394823".

>discord screeencap
>too much texto
don't care

>>723064326 (OP)
>BrotherLaz
of Median XL fame?

>>723064326 (OP)
Just increase your asking price and cut content to resell it as DLC later.

>>723064326 (OP)
Bro if anyone makes a half-decent ARPG (diablo clone) everyone is all over it. None of them are even very good. Bloated dogshit like slormancer and chronicon made a bunch of money.

>>723064326 (OP)
I admit I never buy streamer bait games.

>>723065262
Yes.

>>723064326 (OP)
>to make a popular product you need a strong hook that's immediately obvious and compelling the second someone sees it
NO WAY
HOLY SHIT NOVEL WRITERS FIGURED THIS OUT LITERALLY FUCKING AGES AGO

>>723065086
As much as the guy in OPs pic is a retard, you're even more retarded.
People go indy exactly because you can't fix the industry, you can't fix any company, so they go do their own stuff.

>>723064326 (OP)
>literally narcissism the post
The real problem here is that the games this retard makes suck. If they didn't suck they would be selling.

>>723064326 (OP)
he's not wrong, to be famous on the internet you need to be a meme

>>723064980
That's not what he's talking about, it's about getting your foot in the door.
It's not enough to have a good game, you need to have an advertisable game to pull the blanket away from similar quality games.
otherwise someone will do it to you.

>>723065005
a trash game being pushed by streamers and ecelebs.

>>723064326 (OP)
didn't expect a person who unironically called one of the bosses "Scorpionussy" to be actually smart

>>723065005
a better version of risk of rain 2
he managed to do that by swapping the core gameplay with vampire survivors

>>723066146
He's a millionaire though?

>>723065005
Streamer FOTM. Not so bad if you like VS

>>723064326 (OP)
TL;DR: You need to do marketing and differentiate yourself from your competition and this scares and confuses the average indie dev
its like they forgot they're trying to sell a product to people

>>723064550
t. goblin fucker and breed hog that lays under every dog

any halfway artistic pursuit is always a big gamble as to whether it can actually put food on the table
and even if it can, there's no guarantee that you'll actually enjoy it at the end of the day, life's a bitch like that

Its only trubo retards who like stuff like Megabonk and vampire survivors and balatro and so on. All these meme boring tedious games. The same people who like this sort of trash probably also played trash like mmos and mobile games.

>>723066704
how do you make a good game while also being a jew? this system is fucked

>>723066340
Risk of rain 2 really fell off
Somehow theyre still making new content for it after the disastrous flop of a dlc from the new team

>>723066704
It's like they escaped the soulless AAA grinder to make their dream games or something. Haha bunch of losers

>>723067134
You don't have to be a jew, but you have to put the game out there. The greatest idea will be pointless if it only exists in an empty void where nobody can see it.
It's a shitty game to play, but you can play it without issue. The easiest way is to simply have regular development posts and/or short teasers of the mechanics and look of the game here and there.

>>723066340
>a better version of risk of rain 2
It's not you fucking shill. They plays different.

>>723064326 (OP)
I love to see all the shitter indie devs malding when an unapproved indie game does well

>>723064326 (OP)
yes you need good marketing - social media, streamers
but not "catchy trailers" - that wont do, all the biggests hits like Vampire survivors, Balatro, Peak, the drug game etc - they all dont look good in trailers or short clips, the caught on because of addictive/fun mechanics

>>723067164
And then their dream game is a mix of Symphony of the Night and Lester The Unlikely. And then they wonder why nobody cares. Because they're the indie dev equivalent of a Cover Band.

>>723067459
That's what he just said, dumbass.

>>723067543
Same.
It's similar with drawing. For some reason drawing and indie video games development attracts the biggest pseuds, narcissists and egomaniacs with retarded chuunibyou delusions.

>>723067656
>it's better because it has no gameplay
KYS shill

>>723067134
Theres no way around having to aggressively market your game. Marketing has been more important than the actual product for ages now if you want to actually make money.
You can still make a good game but it needs to be the best it can possible be or appeal to a niche market if it wants to survive through word of mouth alone.
>>723067164
They can make their dream game all they want, but they can't force people to waste their time playing it, let alone pay money for it.

>>723064326 (OP)
Luck

>>723067771
You aren't smart enough to post on this website, which is impressive in and of itself.

>>723066218
>wtf how come my customers can't telepathically know how good my game is!?

>>723064326 (OP)
tl;dr - be lucky, both in landing on an idea that might have a chance of selling, then that idea actually selling.

>>723067837
>You aren't smart enough to post on this website
But I play idle gacha.

>>723067543
>megabonk
>unapproved game
Retard alert.

>>723064326 (OP)
Are you making things to be popular/successful or making things out of a genuine passion? If the former, make some cheap horror streamer/youtuber bait. If the latter, you shouldn't give a fuck whether you're successful or not and should find some way to keep doing what you love whether it be continuing as an indie, joining a company, making the games as a side gig, whatever

>>723065987
This

>>723068009
This

If you make a really good game people will play it
If you can't make a really good game you have to market it well to get people to play it.
it's just that simple.

>>723064326 (OP)
This fag doesn't realize you need to be connected for streamers to shill your product. REPO isn't even fun or innovative its just shilled a ton.

>>723064326 (OP)
He's not entirely wrong. Just look at that climbing game that's all the rage right now. People want many things, but they also want to cackle like hyenas and fuck around with their homies. And the streamers fulfill that niche, since they help those people find cackle-worthy games.

>>723065005
>megabong
DUDE

>>723068087
This. People can see the soul.

>>723064326 (OP)
you can make a living as a game dev by making short games with short development cycles and selling them for cheap on the app store. will you get rich and become a renowned figure? no. will you get enough to get by and continue working as a game dev? as long as your games are at least half good and you learn quick.
a lot of devs have this dream of their passion project becoming popular. but from my perspective, you shouldn't expect other people's visions to align with yours. i respect the dev that makes their dream game more than the dev that just pumps out safe products, but the reality is is that more people want the market proven than some random person's vision of a good game.

tl;dr: either pander to the market to make money OR create the game you want to make for creative satisfaction. going for both will leave you disappointed and bitter without god and luck on your side.

>>723064550
Game?

>>723064326 (OP)
You're not.

>>723068270
nigga i will fucking slap you

>>723068361
your game title is too long

>>723064326 (OP)
By making a good game and not being a annoying faggot who talks to much on the twatter.

>>723068637
being an annoying faggot on twitter actually helps a lot more than making a good game

>>723068087
There are thousands of great soulful games that just don't appeal to many people so they stay underwater for years with no recognition. And even if they get some clout from streamers/tubers they still fail to find commercial success (judero, marrow, dream quest)

>>723065005
newest streamer FOTM slop

>>723064326 (OP)
Devs who think their gameplay is better than their competitors have probably not played enough vidya

>>723068840
By every sense of the word Marrow is not a good video game.

>>723066218
>It's not enough to have a good game, you need to have an advertisable game
If you don't have a good game then you by definition you don't have an avdertisable game, thoughever, because the product IS the "marketing." The retard dev in the OP is coping and making excuses as to why Megabonk is more successful than his own trash game, as well as making up shit like "trailer culture."

What are some instant No-Buy's for you?

>game trailer is footage of a streamer playing it
>the words "spiritual successor" or "from the makers of" in the description
>main character is the opposite of a white man
>"Ubisoft account required"
>depression/abuse is a key story point
>multiplayer-only in a non-FPS genre

>>723069160
>"story-rich"
>specific hyping of a crafting system

>>723069160
>this game is a loveletter-
trash

>>723069160
>well THAT Just happened.

>>723069160
>game looks interesting
>open world survival craft
nope

>>723069160
>>the words "spiritual successor" or "from the makers of" in the description
i feel like turtle rock studios have permanently killed this selling point

>>723069160
>Bubbly WoW graphics
>Marvel vibes
>Sassy woman in trailer
>Too many characters
>"Blah blah blah blah blah" story
>"Hi I'm project lead, I developed Popular Game 20 years ago"

>>723064326 (OP)
>btotherLaz

this motherfucker made the most legendary mod in videogame history
i dont know who he didnt get a job at a major game studio
is he trying to be indie by choice?

>>723068998
chrono trigger would likely flop today if it was a brand new game(imagine it never released in the 90s)
cave story would flop similarly if it was released today.

good game != advertisable game.
Take the best movie as an artform you have ever watched. is it Avatar? is it Avengers endgame?

the market has decided those are the good movies and the artful movie you picked is trash, by your own metrics.

>>723067141
randy pitchford's fetid touch, rotting all that he touches

>>723064326 (OP)
This guy just discovered a concept of marketing, crazy.

There was this obscure manhwa which I read 8 years ago. One of the characters had this really really unique weapon design with bunch of well thought mechanics strapped onto it. Back then I thought you could make a great 2D action game around just manipulating that thing after which I thought someone is probably deving the thing and I just have to wait. Thing is that once you see it any developer worth their salt could craft a masterpiece around the concept, core gameplay loop is solid and allows for boundless player creativity

8 years later there still isn't a fucking game about it. So my point is that there are still hits out there which haven't been made, which could stand tall on their own mechanics

thankfully the pc rhythm game scene is stagnant. rehashes of the same gameplay with different skins leaves a nice lil gap for me to fill for those that want an arcade experience at home.

>>723064326 (OP)
Didn't Slay the Minotaur come out years ago?

>>723064326 (OP)
By making new games that offer new gameplay experiences and are aesthetically beautiful while leaving your social and political baggage at home to focus on good story-telling.

Megabonk also cost pennies, which helps alot.

megabonk needs a command item and better maps and mobs to be better than ror2

>>723069160
Pay attention to my wording because there is some nuance to this and just in case any libshit or feministard who STILL doesnt get it happens to read it I HOPE they might actually listen (but i know they wont).
I do not require to see the panties of cute girls to enjoy a game, I do not NEED upskirt panty shots to consider a game good, in fact, in most games I dont expect it at all, I will never ever complain about the lack of sexy anime ass in team fortress 2 or ikaruga for example.
However, when a game is clearly going out of its way to PREVENT me from seeing cute girls panties, the game is immediately a 0/10, worthless, dogshit, propaganda, no artistic value, disposable, trash. Fucking black voids, fucking deleting the entire undercarriage, fucking long spats, fucking re designing an entire character adapted from an ip just to put her in a fucking burqa, im sick of it all, its always tacky, immersion breaking, lazy, and lets be honest here, its genuinely bigoted, its all rooted in the idea that anything that makes men happy is evil, its misandry, which is bigotry and it needs to be called out as such.

>>723069964
thats a fucking retarded sentence

everything old would flop today, thats just how it is.
you have to judge something by when it was made. Chrono Trigger was amazing for its time.
imagine saying SM64 would flop if it was release today... this is how retarded you sound

>>723070096
>aesthetically beautiful
optional. but even a cube can be beautiful..

>>723069964
Chrono Trigger would only flop in a world where it wasn't released and the market wasn't already completely saturated with uninteresting 16-bit jRPGs, like the indie market has been for a while now. Same thing with Cave Story, and this also includes most early indie games like Braid and Super Meat Boy. How "good" something is is completely relative to when it's released and what the rest of the market at the time looks like.
Or to put it another way, the MODERN EQUIVALENT game of Chrono Trigger would absolutely not flop if it released today.
>Take the best movie as an artform you have ever watched. is it Avatar? is it Avengers endgame?
We're not talking about the "best" though, we're talking about good. Those are both "good" movies in the sense that they're at the very least competent, but they're also not really comparable to indie games. A better comparison would be AAA slop like Horizon Zero Dawn or Ghost of Yotei, which the market has also decided are good despite those games being generic garbage.
But yes, to be clear, with enough marketing money you can almost sell anything. I'm specifically talking about indie games with limited marketing budgets.

Wish I didn't pick up teaching as my profession and went with a regular nine to five. I would easily start game dev on the side.

>>723064326 (OP)
The truth is indie games almost universally fail to improve on the quality or the scope of old shallow releases from professional studios. For instance this game I just tried called Cloudheim which has really bad movement and combat reactivity despite it's appealing aspects like the giant flying turtle island or the physics combat elements. These games usually drown in their own mediocre gameplay, optimization performance problems, and a critical lack of ambitious scope so people have their good will burned out. It's easier to pick up something that's trending with good reviews funny moments on socials than to sift through the trash pile playing games with 500ms input lag jittery animations derivative barebones systems etc. At least you know you'll have 1 good evening with buddies the first time you play shallow shit like REPO Phasmo Peak.

>>723070739
suck off your principal and the superintendent of the board and convince them to let you make a game-making class as an elective

games only sell through advertising. whether its streamer bait, twitter shilling, or getting people so excited they make a /vg/ general around it like gachas.

>>723064326 (OP)
>hey guyz maybe we should try giving customers what they want??
Some fucking crazy ideas going around these days

>>723068998
So if i created a good game, right now, and posted it on steam with no warning, every gamer will magically sense that a good game has appeared and arrive in droves to buy it? don’t be delusional

Artfags don't want to admit it but the reality is that art and business are intertwined. These faggots will whine and cry about how their art, whether it be games or movies or whatever, are an expression of their soul and blah blah blah but that doesn't mean it has value to anyone else but yourself.

You need to SELL your PRODUCT to me. Anyone here in an art program that wants to sell their art, take some business and marketing classes.

The real reason megabonk was successful: autistic grassy fields. It's the same reason mario and sonic is successful.
if megabonk took place in a factory or a sewer it would not be successful. Fact. The best videogames simulate going outside (because we don't go outside), but without all the skin cancer and bugs and homeless people.

>>723070864
Mmmh.. you might be onto something.

>>723070739
Whats the issue, I'm doing teachers college next year

>>723071016
"If I had asked people what they wanted they would have asked me to stop breaking their horses legs" - Angry Snoyd

>>723064326 (OP)
It's always, and I mean literally always throughout history, been difficult to live off of creativity.

>>723070874
This.

>>723071016
>you don't get it, people love being forced to use a car to get anywhere!

>>723069160
My tastes are so specific I buy like 1 game a year, I don't have a "no buy" criteria.
Even the stuff I pirate from GOG to demo are so uncommon that I can't afford to throw something out because of a petty dislike.
But I definitely won't ever buy anything that requires a second launcher like Ubishit

>>723071016
This is not applicable to the issues the game industry is facing. There is no new invention we are all unknowingly waiting for that will make everything we currently have obselete, not happening, and even if it does happen it is entirely irrelivant to blackrock forcing publishers to mass hire jeets and women who literally dont know what fun is.

>>723070023
Yeah but the dev put out The Bleakest Keep recently

>>723071341
Is this message from him?

>>723071115
for american 1-12 school, you have to show up long before the kids start, stay the entire school day, then stay long after the kids leave or work from home to make lesson plans and grade everything. you don't get to just up and leave in the middle of the day or come in when the kids do.

>>723070401
>optional.
No it's not. Gamers are tired of forced ugliness.

>>723070963
No, of course you'd have to do a little bit of "marketing", in the sense that you'd have to inform people it exists, but what I'm saying is that 80% of the "marketing" of any product is simply the quality of the product itself. This is especially true on Steam where the algorithm does most of the work for you; I think you'd be surprised by how useless pretty much all indie game "marketing" actually is, outside of just posting a good trailer.
Though technically speaking a "good" game isn't actually enough, you need a game which is at the very least great. That's how the market works, I just assumed the OP also didn't understand that.

>>723071443
I'm glad I teach uni, at least the entrance exams filter out the worst of the people you have to deal with. My condolences.

>>723071115
It's eating up your entire week and time. You are often too exhausted to do anything else after school and it's often not worth the salary. Currently I don't find as much time as I wish to take care of my newborn, let alone my cats or other hobbies. If you have a creative hobby or one where you need to get to a different place you may not find enough time while also preparing school. I worked a 9to5 before and it was a walk in the park compared to teaching.
Mind that I'm in Germany and it might be different in other countries. Expectations here are also beyond all reason.

>>723064326 (OP)
>indie devs think your game needs to be good
>what it really needs to be is streamerbait
Holy shit he's a genius.

Only problem is that megabonk is actually pretty solid in its genre, unlike slay the minotaur which is a thoroughly mediocre game in every sense.

>>723064326 (OP)
Have they tried making good games instead of baking on novelty

>>723066704
leftists think they are entitled to other people's money, that why they get confused when their games don't make them instantly rich
that's also why triple A devs get so upset when people proudly say they aren't buying their wokeslope

>>723071434
I dunno, the timeline doesn't really make sense since Slay the Minotaur came out over a year ago but he's talking like it's still in development and contemporary with Megabonk which came out like a month ago

Have they tried making good games?

>>723068840
false

>>723071976
That's not important your game needs more memes.

>>723071976
google BrotherLaz, he made the best D2 mod of all time, its actually better than the base game

>>723071976
of course here is your nth roguevania!

>>723064326 (OP)
Whats trailer culture? And I checked his games on steam and while they got good reviews, it doesn't look like they sold well. I recognized their new game because I saw someone spamming it here few weeks ago . Maybe that was the dev himself trying to go viral.

If you make a good game then it doesn't matter.

Megabonk is such a shitty name, it reminds me of Solana memecoins

the only way to get your shitty indie game to sell is to bait popular streamera to stream it to their retarded fanbase

>>723067626
Balatro looked great in the trailer, good artstyle

Peak is friendslop, so all they neede is show it in the trailer

Idk why vampire surv is popular

>>723072205
VS was made by a former slot machine dev IIRC. He just knew the magic formula

>>723064980
It's mindless brainrot skinner box trash. These games exist basically solely as "podcast games" for NPCs to consoom in the background

>>723064326 (OP)
onlyfans

>>723064326 (OP)
Just a make a game without woke shit. Just put badass hetero men and sexy women and the game will be a success. It's not that hard.

>>723071762
>>723071443
well im Canadian and we have strong teachers unions (too strong desu) so the pay is really good. I just don't want to teach too many jeets

>>723071016
people were being realistic when they said that, what we really want is free instant teleportation

>>723072405
>I don't want to teach jeets
Let me rephrase it to "I don't want to teach". Because you can't decide who's in and who's not. A strong union won't make the time the job takes away. Salary in Germany is also okay, if it wasn't for all the extra work. But you can have the same money as a academic person in different fields with regular working hours and your weekends off.

>>723072095
Taking what someone already made and modifying it a bit isn't the same as making your own game though.
This dude wrote an entire paragraph as he came to the high IQ revelation that a game having everything but one small part of it being shit won't sell in an oversaturated market. Somehow he modded a smash hit and never pieced together any of that until this very moment.

I do like the shade thrown at megabonk not because it's a one man project from someone far more talented and experienced than him, no it became popular because it has the epic maymays in it.

>>723072405
>I just don't want to teach too many jeets
This is one issue I'm having in uni teaching as well, it's totally different than it was 10 years ago even, and it takes away one of the big perks of uni teaching (being able to sleep with your students).

I do wonder what the government's plan is now that they have turned the immigration taps off, I fear a big contraction in the education sector because our birth rates collapsed. But this is straying a bit too far from vidya, but it's a symptom of a broader problem plaguing them as well (our society is dying)

>>723071938
>leftists
stopped reading there
go outside

>>723072986
>devs aren't massively leftists
>actually leftism doesn't exists

>>723073102
yes anon, [politically opposed side] is indeed bad
good goy

>>723068840
People love dream quest you tard and it literally landed the guy a job despite being knocked up in probably 2 months

>>723071339
AI is definitely that new technology.
The ability for new content to be generated on the fly. The ability to upgrade a game from AA to AAA through the use of AI will definitely make new waves.

>>723073689
Yeah, waves of shit (good thing we're already used to shit after decades of mediocrity)

Just make a good game lol

>>723064326 (OP)
Indieslop will never be good for this reason, it's not the lack of resources or talent, they're just making games for streamers and hoping they go viral

>>723070704
>the MODERN EQUIVALENT game of Chrono Trigger would absolutely not flop if it released today.
I don't know, I'd push back on this statement. Even if we assume games inspired by it like I am Setsuna, Lost Sphear, or Sea of Stars never released so we never experienced that kind of gameplay style to begin with then Chrono Trigger if released to modern standards would likely do okay but not as well as it did on the SNES in relative terms.

Realistically it would be done in the style of something like Octopath Traveler, Harvestella, Triangle Strategy, etc. because Squeenix withholds the big budgets for games like FF or DQ, not a smaller game like that. I cannot reasonably believe Squeenix would go for a full 3D remake-esque looking version of it or even something akin to Xenoblade. Marketing would also be very low because of it. Combat would likely be compared to things like Tales of games or Trails games, maybe bring in the Mana games too, and then compared to standard ARPGs like FFXV, FFXVI, and then maybe games with ATB like FFVII or FFIV and FFV. I'd imagine it would still be well received because it would be an interesting concept if not done before, but it would also feel more restrictive because of how limiting the move pool is compared to other games in the genre.

The best it would excel at would be the time travel aspect and the map variety but would lose points because of how small the maps would be perceived and how quickly you go through each time period that you don't get time to appreciate them. I'd imagine they'd also praise the Lavos fight since it would be a fairly unique concept only compared to something like BotW's Ganon.

Cave Story would be you releasing the 3DS version. I don't know a better way to put it. It would be you releasing the 3DS version with no one ever having played the original. People would find it impressive for a one-man project but I don't know if it would ever pick up traction due to the different culture we have.

>>723073782
As a single dev I can offload work I'm not familiar with to an AI. I can't create art and art assets but can program them, then AI could easily fill in that gap without me having to pay an artist a salary. The reverse could also be stated with the an artist trying to program a game. You could scale that up to 100 person team and they all have knowledge on how to use AI and get the small AA team to compete with 1000+ AAA teams.

>>723067164
Yeah and if lots of people share your dream the chance is it's gonna be a success. Maybe not explosive right away, but slowly and surely like Mountainblade, Factorio or KSP.

>>723064326 (OP)
>underwater ARPG
Game?

>Muh AI
Ohhh I just can't fucking wait for that bubble to burst. Dot.com will look bitchmade by comparison

>>723074295
That really shitty game that Gamestop created and it flopped like hell becuase it was shit. No I dont remember the name of it.

>>723074221
saar

>>723074334
You can shit and piss and kick and scream all you want. But, even if the AI market crashes it will still be dominant once that recovers and the AI studio that doesn't shut down will be the next Google/Amazon/etc

>>723074221
all it takes is one person to slip up and say you/r team is using ai on the game for it to get firebombed by the anti-ai crowd and it won't sell anything

>>723074221
AI art is completely soulless. Pay up some random faggot from fiver a hundred bucks, or use free stuff and be done with it. But AI stuff is just soulless.

>>723074295
Another Crab's Treasure I believe

>>723069160
>mother influence

>>723064326 (OP)
>blah blah blah blah blah
>anyway here’s metroidvania with souls influence #7391 and a roguelike deckbuilder with faux-anime aesthetics
>WTF WHY DID MY GAME FLOP??? I QUIT MY FUCKING DAY JOB AND INVESTED EVERYTHING INTO THIS, WHY DID I ONLY SELL 7 COPIES??? CAPITALISM DID THIS…

>>723064326 (OP)
He sounds like someone who is mad that no one wants to buy his snowflake game he spend way too much time on.

All good, genre defining games were already made. No reason to make new slop
>Inb4 2 cakes argument
Well, one cake is clearly fucking SHIT

>>723074395
When we can't PROOMPT on investor money anymore it's gonna find its niche and be too expensive to just shit out all this shit for fun.

Even normies are gonna hate anything that even smells a little like AI in the future.

can anyone get piratesoftware's opinion on this? also ja rule. wheres ja?

>>723074295
Don't get too attached to that idea. BrotherLaz has been itinerating the setting and gameplay endlessly and I think the underwater thing has been already ditched.
At this point I've lost any hope on him releasing an ARPG that is not a Vampire Survivors clone.

>>723071016
>ruined city planning nationwide

>>723064326 (OP)
A lot, lot, LOT of game devs thinks making a game in a vacuum for years is the key to making a good game. But if you make a game, but never have people playtest it, you're not making a game for other people to play. You're just making a game only for (You) to play. Megabonk had an idea, then let people play it. Then people had ideas and feedback, of which the dev implemented on it, which then feeds into the media loop. Your game gets better, more people know about your game and repeat.

>>723064830
The make it doesn't suck part is the hard part for most devs. Because it actually means that you have to let other people start playtesting your game and that's when you'll start finding out where your game lacks and where other parts of your game that people find enjoyable. But that also means you have to swallow your pride sometimes and listen to other people's feedback whether you want to or not or if it actually made sense or not

>>723074395
>and the AI studio
What studio? If the AI becomes good enough that anyone can prompt everything instantly, theres not going to be any studios, or entertainment industries for that matter.
If you make an AI image why the fuck would I ever pay you money for that? I'll just ask you what prompt you used and generate my own AI image.

>>723074635
If you want to make money and not worry about income put 10% of your assets/wealth into whichever company that shrugs off the bubble. There will be a bubble and many companies will collapse. But, whomever survives it will guarantee to be the next monopoly.

>>723064326 (OP)
Kinda true but not really
That sort of advice is for crafting viral lightning in a bottle games and while that can happen, you're much more likely to fail than not.
What indie devs usually fail at in their presentation and pitch is to sell a very clear, very specific fantasy that targets a niche. No, "ARPG lootgrind porn but underwater" is not a niche. Neither is "very hard roguelite but with deep and rewarding gameplay." Nobody cares about this. They might say they do, but they really don't.
You need to sell a fantasy. Lobotomy Corporation is a fucking awful, messy game, but it sold a very clear fantasy that no other game seems to have ever tried to do : you manage a facility of weird monsters you have to learn about and deal with. That's immediately understandable and it taps into a fantasy a solid niche has, because they've grown up with SCP so the concept is immediately exciting to them - they're already filling in the blanks for you, you don't have to explain shit. Same for Stardew Valley : you manage a farm. Been done before for sure, but the niche was starving before the game came out, so it came at the perfect time. Perfectly understandable and appealing concept, people are excited. Stardew Valley could have been a roguelite deckbuilder and as long as it fulfilled its fantasy just as well as it currently does, it would have done well.
Just stop focusing on gameplay elements and mechanical experience. You might care about this, but this isn't what gets people initially excited about the concept of the game. Focus on an idea that sounds cool, and then realizing that idea.

>>723064326 (OP)
honestly I can see why megabonk would make people bitter

>>723064326 (OP)
“Gameplay loop”
AAAAAND DROPPED

>>723074760
>A lot, lot, LOT of game devs thinks making a game in a vacuum for years is the key to making a good game.
I mean you can. You just have to be good at what you're doing. The vast majority of designers and devs aren't. They just don't want to hear it, so they'd rather complain after inevitable failure.

>>723067626
Man Factorio had the most insanely great trailer ever, the gradual revelation of autism + scale to danny elfman music

>>723069160
Pixelshit.

If your game is using old ass shit it's an instant nignore

>>723066218
Megabonk is popular because it's VS in 3D. There's nothing more to it than that, and he's delusional if he thinks the meme names attracted anyone.

Best game I played in the past 20 years peaked at 600 players on steam. The mass market is legitimately retarded and cares more for dull RNG mechanics instead of gameplay that requires skill or thought.

>>723074946
what game peaked at 600?

>>723074918
Playtesting or testing your product on your friends is generally a wise thing to do because its very easy to get blind to your own product and have no idea if it really is good or not.

You can see this in tabletop rpgs a lot. Systems like Cyberpsychosis in Cyberpunk and Masquerade & Beast in Vampire are obviously results of playtesting and the game makers buddies instantly turning the gameplay sessions into slaughter powerfantasies where they turn into supervillains murdering every NPC they see.

>>723069160
Nothing hits me like survival crafting.
Pic related was the exact frame where No Light Fire lost all my interest. They learned NOTHING.

>>723069160
>"souls-like"
Silksong made me realize that I'm not enjoying "souls-like" garbage anymore, is just bashing youre hare on the wall over and over and you are not having fun.

Why do they never make games for iOS and Android ? It's not that expensive and you can get a decent amount of players that way, even mobile games made by pros still look like flash games so competing isn't an issue.
Also why do these faggots forget about marketing, you can make advertisement for your game, the goal isn't to get people to talk about it forever, it's that they talk about it once so someone who might be interested decides to buy it.
For example there are 20 different PSX emulators on Android, the only one I've heard of is ePSXe, so that's the one I buy. Not because it's talked about endlessly but because some day, someone recommended it to me.

Same holds for games btw, my latest purchase was Rise of the Ronin, which gets absolutely no following on social media, because some time before release there were youtube ads about it. So this guy's advice, "make a game that will advertise itself, instead of paying for advertisement", seems to me like it's complete bs.

>>723071841
Pretty solid and mediocre mean the same thing

>>723074713
>muh 15 minute city
Would you please just move to China you fucking retard

>>723075120
>Why do they never make games for iOS and Android
Too prideful. Despite the fact that small studios do just that to keep afloat lol

>>723075098
>Playtesting or testing your product on your friends is generally a wise thing to do because its very easy to get blind to your own product and have no idea if it really is good or not.
Thing is, devs like the OP are convinced their game is great and are afraid of feedback telling them otherwise.

Pretty sure that also happens in large companies. You do playtesting, but it's all set up to deliver the result you want.

>>723075120
>Why do they never make games for iOS and Android ?
They want to make games to become some celebrated artist. They want to be the guy from Minecraft, the guy from Stardew Valley, that guy from Metal Gear Solid.

>>723075197
Yeah and that results in them failing spectacularly. Hence why sensible industry professionals do recommend test screenings and hunt for that brutal honest feedback before they give full greenlight to expensive projects.

Veers a bit to /ic/ or /co/ territory but Making Comics how-to book also has a section on writing and creating comics where they recommend showing them to your friends and asking for honest brutal feedback.

>>723064326 (OP)
>think what you need is a good gameplay loop
>this is wrong
and in simply two sentences, this developer has openly announced that their game will be dogshit and fail

>>723064326 (OP)
Just make a knockoff of a popular game that hasn't had a good knockoff in a while with cute characters and do a kickstarter and don't be completely incompetent, or maybe even be completely incompetent, and you'll make a shitload of money
>A hat in time/Mario 64
>Undertale/Earthbound
>Mighty#9/Megaman
>Mindwave/Warioware
>Yooka Laylee/Banjo Kazooie
>Bug Fables/Paper Mario
This is a tried and tested formula

>>723071938
This

The SJWs who make games think that if they work hard everyone has to buy their game. Yes, they are this stupid

>>723069160
>roguelite
>"it's a modern take on... "
>Name or style is an Elon Musk-tier meme

>>723075351
>showing them to your friends and asking for honest brutal feedback
Those people are afraid of feedback. Likely because they never succeeded at anything and have learned that feedback will always be bad.

>>723071938
>leftists think they are entitled to other people's money, that why they get confused when their games don't make them instantly rich
They think hard work always end in a reward. Communism.

>>723072289
>>723072205
He just ripped of a free mobile game called Magic Survival lmao

>>723075356
"Gameplay loop" is a term that only applies to randomised slop to begin with.

>>723075560
retard

>>723075120
>Why do they never make games for iOS and Android ?
Take a look at play store recommends and you'll see.
In a way, competition on mobile market is even more fierce than that outside, if only because of more centralized methods of distribution, and it is not kind to money-forward type games. Only two types of games prevail in that sphere, MTX infested shovelware that gets forgotten as quickly as it appears, and freeware autistic passion projects.

>>723069997
Do you recall anything else about it? I'm not gonna make the game sadly, but it does sound like an interesting read

>>723069160
"spiritual successors" and "loveletter" games are good if the devs themselves never claim them as such. If they do, it becomes clear they try to ride on the wave of the original rather than genuinely trying to make something that those who enjoyed the og games would want to play.

>>723075725
It's much more easy to sustain yourself as a solo dev on mobile.
I'm a solo dev on mobile and I make decent money. It's ridiculously easy.

>>723075120
Gaming on your phone sucks ass. Don't change my mind. Sudoku is not gaming btw.

>brotherlaz
the fuck is he doing nowadays after ghosting every single project he took part in?

>>723066218
But there have been a ton of indie games that never had any connection like fucking Minecraft, hollow knight, balatro, and hades are a few games that are indie and then got so popular . If you make a good game you will get picked up by random streamers or just word of mouth gamers

>>723075889
a video game is a game you play on an electronic device. seppuku and farmville are as much video games as elden ring because its one single vague, overarching definition to literally everyone. going into the weeds about genre and gimmicks and whatever doesn't work into the definition.

>>723075547
>Those people are afraid of feedback. Likely because they never succeeded at anything and have learned that feedback will always be bad.
This happens to a lot of successful people as well. A book revealing the inner dealings of Nokia was released a few years back and it detailed how Nokia's leadership was completely in denial about Apple's iphones. They thought Nokia was the top of the world and are immune to failure and fired anyone who said otherwise.

>>723075725
I miss the old mobile games like zenonia 1

>>723071246
Car is fun and if crashed into a horse it would kill horse, therefore car is better

>>723076035
>This happens to a lot of successful people as well.
I know enough successful people. They're mostly successful because
1. They know the right people and simply bought their way to success. Or were born rich.
2. They got lucky.
3. They're downright criminals.

Mostly it's a combination of two points. Having access to money to make more money is always part of it.

>>723070272
Spats are based though.
That said I do agree with you. I wouldn't even mind if it was done like in Lollipop Chainsaw where the character herself is actively blocking you from peeking. It makes more sense at least than everything from the waist down vanishing into a black void.

>>723076035
HOW DO THESE WORTHLESS HOLES EVEN GET THE JOBS? WE NEED TO KILL JEWS NOW

>>723070281
Retarded nigger subhuman. Let me spell it out for you then.
You, when you are sayinf "just make a good game lol" are operating on an outdated system of beliefs that doesn't work now (questionable if it ever did but whatever). Anon is telling you that games that were following your outdated system of beliefs would not succeed.
But you, being the brown genetic excrement monkey without a brain that you are, sinply reinforced his point whilst acting like a retard.
Please, kill yourself immediately. You have no intelligence of any kind, nothing you say has any meaning, you're nothing but a useless eater. Stop being a drain on Earth's resources.

>Megabonk
>Repo
>Lethal company
>Peak
>phasmophobia
>palworld

These games came out of nowhere with no marketing and sold crazy numbers. Maybe being a meme is important for your game to sell.

>>723071025
The funny thing is that the old masters ran their studios like a business and their signature was more like ”this piece of art lives up to my standards and was made by my studio”. A lot of the work into a piece was done by apprentices and finishing touches or complex work was done by the master.

>>723076032
No. This was cooked up by feminists to force women into the industry since they were """underrepresented"" since normie middle-aged Karens play around with phone slop on the bus.

If they are equally gamers who equally play games the terms are totally meaningless and we need something else.

>>723064326 (OP)
kill other indie devs and consume their flesh. it'll boost your survival chances by like 100x

>>723076323
4 out of the 6 games you mentioned are co-op slop. Steam only pushes games based on their revenue (making a million dollars in an hour type deal), and co-op slop does that the best, so it gets pushed by steam the most.

>>723076384
megabonk is the only one without multiplayer

>>723076384
there's more games like Mouthwashing, dont look up, i'm not human and more I cant think of right now that succeeded because of memes and not because their gameplay did anything new or unique.

>>723069160
Survival anything

>>723071016
What is a car if not a faster horse? People were right.

>>723065262
Also known in Skyrim modding scene as EnaiSiaion

>>723076367
>we NEED something else
you just don't want to be grouped up with women, I get it. your hobby isn't Your hobby anymore and you need to just get over it. stick to the dark shitty corner of it that you like while the rest of it goes on without you and leaves you behind.

>>723076475
Just one counter-example. Yep, I'm fully convinced now.

>>723076479
You might as well just play the lottery then. How many other games like Mouthwashing or No I'm not Human never got anywhere and sit at barely 100 reviews? You don't know? Exactly.

>>723064326 (OP)
that's true if your goal is just to make money.
I know a lot of people don't see any value in making good things "just because" but that is literally the only thing worth doing in your life. making things for others to enjoy or hate is an act of leaving your mark in this world (actually building something is unnecessary, as long as you take part in something you think is good)

also if you choose INDIE VIDEO GAME DEVELOPMENT as your path to riches (or even rent money lol) you are beyond retarded

>>723064326 (OP)
Make a game that can be run on phones. Consumers own phones, Switches, the shitty small Xbox that devs keep whining about, laptops and budget PCs from a decade ago.
Make it fun
If it's multiplayer give it an endless maze treadmill, or "gameplay loop" as the kids say
Design a character purely for porn, that character will carry your game singlehandedly

>>723076559
Believe me I am. I play my actual good games and enjoy watching it all go to crashing down.

Because women never actually played vidya. The purple-haired are there only for the money and status, but are actually useless and will scurry away again soon enough.

I thought indie devs got into indie devving because they wanted to make games that THEY themselves wanted to play
Why do I hear so many complaints from them about what type and what gameplay loop they should do?

>>723076815
>Design a character purely for porn, that character will carry your game singlehandedly

I cant think of any games that became insanely popular that does this.

So for a game to be successful you need to make it streamer bait core? then with the money you did you can decide to retire and find a comfy job or invest that money in a real game that will totally fail because it will not be streamer core?

>>723076559
A match 3 karen and traditional gaming are pretty much two different universe with zero overlap. It's completely artificial to pretend they are really engaging with the same hobby.

>>723075403
Cool story Mr Reddit spacer.

>>723076694
>for others to enjoy or hate
Except nowadays you don't even get this. If you don't want to or can't play the satanic algorithms of twitter, youtube, reddit and so on your game will literally get NOTHING. No views, no downloads, no plays.

Neither Steam nor itch.io have good support structures for visibility of indie games and they instead show you the same 5 games on rotation. If you want to get your game to be seen, you literally MUST be either an annoying shill without any self-awareness (bruteforce) or have shit tons of money to buy up the biggest youtubers and streamers to play your game. Literally no other way to get anywhere.

No, word of mouth does not exist anymore.

>>723076292
Yeah, stuff like juliet blocking herself is funny, that is a self aware comedy game though so it fits the tone, i also think ashley calling leon a pervert funny and a very charming detail. Those are two cases where they actually makes sense with the tone and characters involved, in my opinion those examples cannot be compared to the plauge of black voids and un rendered undercarriages.
>spats are based
You know what context i mean. May from pokemon always had spats on, her spats existed before feministards invaded the industry, also it makes sense with her outfit, these are good use of spats. But when spats are blatantly being used to cover up panties, then the game is worthless, some examples include, sonic racing crossworlds, granblue fantasy relink, everybodys golf hotshots, and those are just off the top of my head.

>>723069160
Cards
I've even accidentally dodged games that aren't actually card games, they just presented items in a card like fashion during a brief 2 second trailer of their inventory

>>723064326 (OP)
This man is confusing marketing and quality needs as superseding each other when both are vital and self evident to your product's success.

>>723076931
picture books, young adult novellas, straight up smut, adult sized novels, stephen king slop or game of thrones slop are all books. anyone of any age can say their hobby is reading no matter what kind of book they read.
mobileslop, cozy farm sims, sweaty cod, perverted hentai novelgames, bullet hells, and "olympic level competitive" gaming are all games of different levels. anyone of any age can like video games and be considered a gamer if they play any of them for longer than is "normal" or "healthy" no matter what type of game it is.

Im gonna make a list of games where it's only a few devs making an indie game that blew up and became massively popular out of nowhere

Among Us
Vampire survivor
Balatro
Lethal company
Phasmophobia
Mouthwashing
Ultrakill
Signalis
Buckshot roulette
Schedule 1
webfishing
Peak
Megabonk
Lethal company
REPO
Animal well
Miside

Now are these games popular because of their quality or memes?

>>723076915
30 minutes walking sim with zero fail states besides the 2 minute chase at the end
It's dead right now but when Ch1 was out /v/ would makes 500 post threads about wanting to fuck this gay raccoon

>>723076323
Palword had trailers at vga or summer game thin but you’re right about the others. Good games will get played by people and shared around

>>723064326 (OP)
Game devs will do anything but make a good game.

>>723077479
I’m still waiting on the second part of the game

>>723068178
WEED

>>723077440
Simplicity (at first glance) that allows for a large amount of creativity that works within the world presented, usually. Mouthwash is walking sim with 2deep4u lore.

>>723076915
Nier Automata comes to mind.
And maybe not for porn, but once upon a time a single good design alone could do wonders to the popularity of franchise. Not anymore though. Maybe because of the complete oversaturation of the anime girl market, maybe because most modern designs just don't have the same energy and kind of suck to be honest.

>>723064326 (OP)
90% of indies fail because their character design fucking sucks. If you can't design an attractive or appealing character, you will lose.
>Stardew Valley
>Hades
>Cave Story
>Shovel Knight
>Celeste (tranny)
>Hollow Knight
>Silksong
>Hat in Time
>Minecraft
>Cuphead
>Undertale (tranny)
>Deltarune (tranny)

All of these indies won because they had good character design on top of being well received games. If you make something generic or ugly, it will not sell. Just look at how well Nintendo's characters have survived given how much appeal they have. Games like
>Penny's big breakaway
>Rollin Rascal
>Yooka Laylee
> Any indie with Generic anime art or Western cartoon art game
Have no appeal and even come off as ugly.

He's not wrong.
The general consumer-base is majority complete fucking retards that have no taste or thought about a game's quality
It's all """vibes""" and being part of the social media craze around whatever happens to be the popular "IN" game at the time.

"gamers" in general have fucking dogshit taste.
Look at the state of the industry in what sells millions and is praised

>>723077836
>Minecraft
>character design
they're just blocks but I guess I get what you mean.

Justt play AA games and ignore indiefags.

>>723076891
It's obvious the cancerous types who have occupied the entire AAA industry have lived in the bubble long enough they think people actually want their shit and if they go indie their friends in the media will continue to help them and the modern audience will buy it.

It's unfair if they won't.

>>723064326 (OP)
I think that's a very weak excuse, there's a new dynamic to marketing which is getting influencers to play your game to where it doesn't need to have those tiktok moments engineered, it just needs to be engaging enough that an influencer will play it of their own volition and then the media manager for that influencer will pick those moments out of a 3-10 hour stream or whatever.

>>723064326 (OP)
By not expecting miracles
You can be successful without catering to the vapid retards on tiktok but you need to put the work in and accept that you are trading potential profits for artistic integrity
Trying to have both will inevitably cause your project to turn into either vapourware or a dumpster fire

>>723077836
>Western cartoon art game
Binding of Isaac did pretty well for itself

>>723064326 (OP)
>people gravitate towards fresh and unique games instead of a reharshes of something they've already played
Wow I never would've figured that out without the discord intellectual.

Indie games are just stealing ideas from older games and I will not play them
>MUH HOLLOW KNIGHT
rip off of castlevaina and super metroid
>MUH UNDERTALE
Legitimate copyright of earthbound
>PALWORLD
pokemon

Indies are scams.

>>723078181
It's funny how of all things this tankie faggot nepo baby's downfall is the "oh no, muh puppers"

Well no shit that's like saying if you put purple lipstick and sad makeup on a woman she will catch people's eye and look interesting. We still won't buy her 10 hour experience if her story or the song and dance she has isn't interesting yk?

>>723068997
Yeah, it's great
>>723073363
It sold like ass still, even if it's true. Not like ass ass, but, like, really fucking poor sales. Not even considering it's general influence

>>723064326 (OP)
>Megadonk
Mhm.

I a time where some guy became a millionaire by makign a spin-off game of his actual game about digging holes in your backyard, I don't think he has a point. video games are the 2020s version of making music in the 80s. One hit and you're set for life.

>>723077836
>If you can't design an attractive or appealing character, you will lose.
>Megadonk
>MEGADONK
10/10 design right there, it worked for Capcom.

>>723074760
my solution to playtesting as an antisocial freak is to just make tiny games and iterate per release based on user feedback
it's lazy and inefficient but much to my preference

>>723077890
>Look at the state of the industry in what sells millions and is praised
You don't need to look far. Just look at this thread praising utter shit like Megabonk or Repo.

>>723077440
A bunch of these are memes
Amogus, Mouthwashing, Cuckshot Roulette, Animal Well, Miside all become popular because of memes.
95% of them became popular because of ecelebs.

>>723077440
Only Balatro is any good or unique.
The rest are all Streamer slop, can't comment on mouthwashing. Haven't played or seen that one played

>balatro
>good

>>723078680
>>723078758
balatro more like balastroturfed lol got 'em

>>723077072
>You know what context i mean
Sure, I just really love spats
>no verification required
Double based

>it’s a meme market

No guys… you literally need to make a good game that doesn’t pander to any “ism” people.

>>723066340
I fucking hate Vampire Survivors and the genre that it spawned. I thought that ARPGs were the most soulless vidya experiences possible, where the aim of the game is to not have to play the game, but then along came the fucking Survivor-like genre where you don't even have a game to invalidate in the first place! It's just a fucking slot machine with a very shallow level of meta build-crafting as the core gameplay mechanic! It is literally designed to turn your brain into slush via dopamine spikes without you having to meaningfully engage with it or earn those rewards in any real way.
This isn't the way it's supposed to be. I'm not saying that videogames are some kind of karmic stairway or valid tool for profound spiritual revelation, but like with literally anything else in life, if you get the reward without having to put the effort in, there's no growth, there's no meaning to it.
I used to see that comic about the girl being put into the pleasure cube and think that it wasn't that bad, but this genre becoming popular has caused me to revise my opinion. Rewards without struggle are bad for the soul, and that isn't even getting into how it has ultimately lowered the quality of the industry because it demonstrably proves that video games don't need to be well-thought out, have interesting gameplay, narrative, or any artistic vision at all to be successful. A dev who might have created something worthwhile might spend less effort and churn out garbage because what is the fucking point in investing into the industry when the audience is full of drooling fucking mongoloids who don't care about any kind of integrity so long as they can clap and giggle at the flashing lights and noises.

I don't know. Maybe this is just a reflection of the human condition. I'm not sure what I even want out of this. I suppose I just hoped we could be better.

>>723078930
Good games get talked about
Things that are talked about get memes

>>723064550
>Just add big bouncy boobies
Unironically yes. If I see a modern game with tits or a hot MC I will automatically get interested in it. Sadly thanks to trannies this is becomming more and more rare

>>723065262
>>723065690
What is he doing these days?

>>723077440
Signalis is a kind of interesting story
I wasn't aware that it was massively popular, though

>>723076301
Kek

Also true. This industry is a window into how shit our world is

>>723079190
Trying to be a sucessful indie dev.

>>723076624
>Just one counter-example. Yep, I'm fully convinced now.
What do you mean "counter-example"? It's part of the list you're responding to.
>You might as well just play the lottery then.
Sure, if playing the lottery was a skill like making a successful indie game is.
>How many other games like Mouthwashing or No I'm not Human never got anywhere and sit at barely 100 reviews? You don't know?
Zero, that's why they aren't like those games.
A game that gets 100 reviews is very successful btw (depending on the budget).

>>723064326 (OP)
This mindset is the entire reason we are in this trashfire in the first place. Where it is more important to game the system and make DOLLARS than it is to make a game you are passionate about and think will be a GOOD FUCKING GAME.

>>723079238
Last time I talked to him was during late median 08 early median xl alpha phase. Wish him best of luck I guess.

>>723078549
>Amogus, Mouthwashing, Cuckshot Roulette, Animal Well, Miside all become popular because of memes.
Saying that something became popular because it was a "meme" is like saying that something is popular because it's popular. They became memes because they were popular, that's literally what a meme is.
>95% of them became popular because of ecelebs.
That's how all games become successful, anon. Through word of mouth. Critics, streamers, journalists and youtubers are just people with bigger mouths.

>>723075032
Concord.

>>723079190
>What is he doing these days?
Being retarded, by the looks of things.

>>723079275
That and the lack of ambition. Every single indie games are still flash tier level even now that they have access to tools that old indie devs dreamed they had access to.

>>723079121
Anon... Hate to break it to you, but you're fighting a dead cause. The mongrel retards have already taken over. This thread is already full of people going "BUH IT SOLD A LOT AND MAKE MY LIZARD BRAIN FEEL GOOD SO ITS GOOD!!".
There's no saving this industry unless you genocide like 1/3 of the Earth's population.

>>723070739
>if only I had a more demanding job, I would be doing so much more in my freetime
ok

>>723071016
>people wanted faster transportation
>I gave them faster transportation
Wow, retard. You sure are smart for knowing that one quote without understanding it.

>>723079242
>Zero, that's why they aren't like those games.
>it's a bad game when it has 100 reviews or less but the moment my favourite e-celeb makes a video on it and it spikes in playercount, then it's suddenly a good game

Simply put, the indie vidya industry overwhelmingly favors gamers over developers, and that's a good thing.

The fact that this developer is worried about his game flopping and jealous of Megabonk already signals that he is fucked. Even if he didn't admit any of this publicly and just thought it to himself, he'd still be sealing his doom. If you're making a game hoping to get some big bucks and a lot of fame, you are in the wrong line of business.

If you make a game you want to play and feel passionate about, and you just want to be the change you want to see in the world, that's how you actually make a mark, no matter how small, on indie vidya. There's no scenario where you lose there. And that's what a lot of indie developers already are. And guess what. Of the very successful indie games, the majority of those are precisely from those devs. But again, even if you fail, you at least made a mark, you at least put out something you wanted in the world. You at least got a small cult fanbase that occasionally passionately brings your game up. You marked lives.

The indie industry is no place for success chasers. There are too many passionate autistic devs around. Your fame hungry ways WILL be ignored.

>>723075159
nah

>>723080032
>it's a bad game when it's unreleased but the moment it releases and it spikes playercount then it's suddenly a good game

>>723078518
You sound like a hater bitch

>>723074334
>muh dot.com
People always post this as if they don't know that the internet didn't die because of that - on the internet.

>>723064326 (OP)
yap yap yap 3 paragraphs to say marketing is what sells products

Man there's a lot of people itt that don't get the appeal of cheap simple games. You don't need some epic 200 hour adventure for every fucking game. Five or ten bucks for an arcade style game is fine. The real difference is that the arcade style games we get today don't charge you another dollar to play again.

>>723080138
>moves the goalpost to unreleased games
I suppose I should've known you're a low IQ retard.

>>723073805
I would rather complain on twitter and blame steam.

>>723080075
trvth nvke

>>723079896
Screaming into the void is the only thing that will bring me any catharsis.

>>723080226
Gacha is pretty much the new arcades.

>>723080075
>If you make a game you want to play and feel passionate about, and you just want to be the change you want to see in the world, that's how you actually make a mark, no matter how small, on indie vidya. There's no scenario where you lose there. And that's what a lot of indie developers already are. And guess what. Of the very successful indie games, the majority of those are precisely from those devs. But again, even if you fail, you at least made a mark, you at least put out something you wanted in the world. You at least got a small cult fanbase that occasionally passionately brings your game up. You marked lives.
Ok and how does that put food on my table?

>>723080453
Make a game good enough thats it puts food on your table? Are you retarded or something?

>>723080075
based

>>723072290
If that's what the current audience wants, then make that.
>But it's not what I waaaant
You're not owed success and money for daring to chase your dreams. If you want to make a living off of making videogames, then make videogames people want to buy. Or don't but then don't whine when it doesn't sell.
These discussions always seem to start from the assumption that the devs are entitled to success no matter what they make, and they just need to game the system enough to fool people into giving them the success they're owed.
Basically these:
>>723066704
>>723071938

>>723080279
The best way of identifying whether someone is a low IQ retard or not is checking if they understand hypotheticals, like you just demonstrated you don't. How would you feel if you hadn't eaten breakfast today, anon?

>>723080332
>arcade means that you spend a lot of money all the time right?
Maybe if you're dumb.

>>723080453
Ignore >>723080501, he's a retard

The point is: YOU'RE IN THE WRONG FUCKING INDUSTRY, BUDDY

Again, the indie vidya industry is filled to the brim with autismos that are not profiting from their games, that are doing them out of passion and to channel their creativity into the void, and you think you're just gonna get in here, skip the line over all of them, and make good comfortable money out of it? Why? Because you said so? The chances of that happening literally round out to 0%. You're wasting your time.

>>723065005
A million brits

>>723064326 (OP)
I feel like most indie devs don't even like games. Replaying some old mario shit from the times, when your dick was working doesn't mean you like games. How can you create something you don't even like? Do you think Gordon Ramsey dislike food? Do you think Hugh Hefner disliked girls? Why do you think it works different for games?

>>723070963
I mean...

Sleeper hits are a thing...

>>723074763
It's so funny that AI jeets never have an answer to this. This is literally the silver bullet. You say this and they always shut the fuck up.

>>723080453
What does that matter or have to do with anything?

>>723080453
If you an indie dev with no prior known games and experience and you betting on this game to bring you food, instead of working normal job, while making this game in a free time, then you are a fucking retard.

>>723069160
>"remastered for modern audiences"
Aka
"We fucked it up beyond recognition"

>>723075351
This shit was fucking poetic.

>>723080603
I think you're focusing on the wrong part of "arcade."
Arcades were bleeps and bloops and difficulty to buy another try and getting your name on the high scores list.
Gacha's focus on waifus, flashy combat, and flashy lootbox pulling is similar to the sensory noise of arcades. The financial model is not the same and it lacks the social aspect of something equivalent to the high scores list (though this may or may not include cockgobbling about your waifu with other cockgobblers on gobblercord).

If you want to make something for other people, presentation is the only thing that matters

>>723064326 (OP)
>guys guys get this, advertising your product is important
None of these wretched autists deserve a dime holy fuck
>>723064980
>People don't just randomly play games 20+ hours because it's 'haha funny'.
Are you joking? The fuck do you think all that friendslop voip shit was about? deep gameplay??

>>723080453
>Ok and how does that put food on my table?
Why should it? Do I get paid for playing your game? Making it is your passion, right? Playing games is mine. What puts food on my table is my job, not my passion. Get a job.

>>723070739
Tbh I quit teaching two years ago and after recovering from burnout every other job feels like a walk in the park. I hate that I’m turning 30 next year and only just now starting on gamedev properly (though have skills in art, 3D, writing, etc) but I’m thankful I got out before teaching could turn me into a jaded cunt like most of my coworkers.

I’m not super concerned about sales I just want to make games that speak to me like a lot of my influences (Evangelion, FLCL, etc) because frankly I’d have offed myself like a decade ago had I not gotten into a lot of the media I consider special to me nowadays.
I know those aren’t video games but I feel gaming is one of the best mediums to tell a story in due to how immersed the player can become. Time will tell how this all goes I guess.

At least OP isn't the usual faggot and decided to take a screenshot from literally who outside of X

>>723064326 (OP)
>NOOOOOOOOOOO I SUPPOSED TO MAKE ORIGINAL PRODUCT INSTEAD OF COPY PASTED SLOP ARGHHHHHHHH SAVE ME

>>723080906
Looming over him...

>>723069160
korean mmo/wow graphics

>>723081075
This literal who made MedianXL and some Skyrim mods.

>>723080730
>removes the second stick from the twin stick shooter
>zoomers think it's an improvement
>zoomers also call it bullet hell for some reason
>they also call survival games simulators now somehow

>>723064830
I feel like too many indies are trying to make "unique experiences" that end up being the modern equivalent of a weekend rental that you play once and never touch again

Like if you aren't trying to make a game worth coming back to don't be surprised when no one wants to come back to it

>>723064830
>just make stuff that doesnt suck shit.
Your game can be the greatest thing in the world, but if it has a terrible aesthetic and no visual hook, people will not care.

Concord is unironically the best example that can be brought up here. There was nothing on a technical or quality level wrong with the gameplay, not even the cult of personality Youtubers were dogging it for its gameplay. It got zero interest because it looked like shit visually, none of the characters were appealing and were called the discount Guardians of the Galaxy.

>>723075351
>>723080906
This is the polar opposite of the guy in the OP and why these dudes are based despite the fact they make /v/ seethe
>Make a game they want to make and feel passionate about (MAGA BAD!)
>Find their extremely niche audience
>Likely did not profit out of it
>Love what they're doing and keep at it anyway
>Literally made free content updates for their flop game just to improve it for the few people that actually like it
>Still have more content updates in the pipeline
>Already working on the next game they're passionate about
You have to understand, the reason why the indie vidya industry is so relentlessly hostile to faggots like the one screenshotted in OP is not just because of the few indie devs that manage to break through and make a big hit like the Balatro guy or the Megabonk guy. It's also the hundreds of passionate indie devs that make flops but are providing fun to a very specific subset of people, and are doing it because that's what drives them, not success. The indie vidya industry is filled to the brim with people like these. And that's why success chasers are gonna fail and seethe. Gamers are spoiled for choice.

>>723079121
This reminded me of a certain blogpost.
>we glimpse pleasure as we do movements of consciousness: fleetingly, in the creation and destruction of forms.
>if pleasure couldn’t be faked we wouldn’t have an entertainment industry.
>the idea that pleasure is static and knowable and can be doled out in fixed proportions is why we have the sad and mangled little tribe known as videogame players - people driven nuts by a boredom and unhappiness they can’t even articulate, since by rights it shouldn’t even exist.
>art as sentimental education; art as an education in pleasure, this thing we don’t quite recognize or know what to do with.

I understand your desire for videogames to be something more than just movements on the screen, but you can't completely discard the idea of them as a simple pastime. As a kid, I often enjoyed that desktop destroyer thing and the little joke apps like a button that would run away from your cursor. And who doesn't love Space Cadet pinball or Solitaire. Sometimes all people need is to see a little guy walk back and forth and occasionally fight a rat or a skeleton.
And I wouldn't say that popularity of this particular type of game has changed much in the overall gaming sphere. It's not like people weren't playing Angry Birds or Jetpack Joyride for years before. Not to mention the idle games as a genre.
But still there are devs who try to go for more sophisticated approach, with variable success. I think the bigger problem here is that those projects that try to take themselves more seriously are usually just not that good for one reason or another, which is a different subject to tackle.

>>723081215
Sounds like you've got the formula for an even better, more successful game! Better get on it before someone else does

>>723081338
Clinging to a dead rotting piece of shit is nothing short of pathetic
These are brainwashed drones unable to face reality not passionate artists

>>723081423
Nah, you can seethe all you want, but they're clearly not doing it for success or because they delusionally think the game is gonna start making a lot of money. They are doing it out of passion for the few people that the game resonated with. That's what the indie industry is actually all about. If that's not what you're doing, you're chaff and you're wasting your time.

>>723080453
It won't
But neither will mindlessly chasing trends unless you are extremely lucky
You think every faggot that copied Vampire Survivors is successful? Most never reach 100 concurrent players and are drowned in the sea of garbage. The ones you are aware of are the vast minority of exceptions to that rule.

>>723076019
>If you make a good game you will get picked up by random streamers or just word of mouth gamers
Holy fuck what a retarded take. Quality is barely a factor in being discovered. There have been a plethora of fucking dogshit games that become massively popular/successful for no reason other than memes or popular people playing them. There are very, very, fucking -very- few good games that release and explode in popularity for their quality.

>>723064326 (OP)
>waaaah a game I didn't make succeeded while mine tanked, this is SO unfair
Lemme guess, he's either working on an Earthbound-inspired RPG or a roguelike. Bonus points if both

>>723081497
haha

>>723081174
Still don't know and don't care. Don't defend OP baiting for replies.

>>723081415
It was already made in the year 1982, it's called Robotron 2084. Play that instead of Vampire Survivors

>>723081338
Ok, now this is an actual truth nuke

>>723081571
All you're saying is that in your opinion the type of indie games tend to become popular aren't good, which is completely irrelevant and shows you don't actually understand the discussion.

>>723069160
trailer starts with anything but someone getting killed or giant tits

>>723081735
>It was already made in the year 1982, it's called Robotron 2084. Play that instead of Vampire Survivors
So why didn't you spend a couple of weeks making a clone of Robotron 2084 and release it on Steam? You could have been a multi-millionaire, anon.

>>723075351
That pic is hilarious. My taxes were used to make that shit.

>>723081497
>didnt make money off it and arent moving to new projects
>company somehow afloat
>meaning they are just dicking around on blackrock money spreading the message™
>this is le based 2025

>>723081338
You forgot
>receive government funding

>>723081384
It's not even that complicated. It's the fundamental difference between joy and satisfaction. So many people are trapped in an addiction to the former trying to fill the hole in themselves, mistaking it for the shape of the latter. You can pour infinite amounts of vapid and cursory pleasures into that void and still find no relief from the hunger, because you are trying to fill a sieve with water.
I want more people to be aware of this disparity of cognition, but the vidya industry seems to be wholeheartedly opposed to the notion. The rise of mobile games, or gacha, of shallow roguelites and ARPGs and button mashing 'party games' are all the same thing - You claim that the Survivors genre hasn't warped the industry, but I think it's just the latest symptom.

>>723067134
shill it on /v/

>>723064326 (OP)
This person is just describing marketing. A good gameplay loop is what keeps people playing and they will remember how much fun the game was.

>>723082110
>meaning they are just dicking around
Yes, you fucking retard. THAT IS MY WHOLE POINT.
90%+ of indie devs on Steam DON'T MAKE MONEY from their games. They're doing it out of passion.
This is a good thing for gamers. It's a bad thing for developers that want to make money from developing. And it's a neutral-to-bad thing for developers that are more interested in simply being passionate and being the change they want to see in the world.

If the indie vidya industry on steam was mainly or exclusively populated by devs that were only trying to make money with their indie games, no one trudging through them would find anything worth a damn to them.

>>723071339
lmao, i love you redditors, god forbid the day you people are able to learn

>>723082420
>omega pozzed troon pandering is good for gamers
>even though the game is shit
>and the graphics are shit
>and the new content isnt worth anything either
(you)

>>723081735
>Duuhhhhh [very successful game] doesn't count because it's a casualized version of an ancient genre
News flash idiot, no one cares. People enjoyed vamp survivors and it made a lot of money, with little to no advertising aside from word of mouth.

>>723082420
And yes, by the way, to answer the other sentence in your greentext shitpost, it is based to make a game either knowing or suspecting that you won't profit out of it, but you just want to do it because it speaks to you. This is true of masterpieces like Cave Story, and it's equally true of games you're not interested in like Dustborn.

>>723082535
You're too low IQ to understand my point.

>>723076915
There aren't any. Games are played and they must be fun. Everything else is extra. It's not the main thing that makes a game good. If you strip down a game, it's just mechanics in a loop. Porn isn't a game and a good game doesn't need porn. The porn is just extra. Porn will only make a game porn, it won't make it good.

>>723082670
>unrealengine walking simulator that flashes "trans rights" every 2 meters is passion and good for gamers

>>723081308
in "make stuff that doesn't suck shit", i am including the aesthetics

>>723082757
Indie developers making games because they want to channel their creativity into the world and be the change they want to see is based.

Indie developers making games because they want to make big bucks/make a comfortable living and be famous is cringe.

The former already exist in mass on Steam, and they overwhelm the latter. They make the industry hostile to the latter. This is based as fuck.

Most indie games are inferior copies of classic games anyway.

>>723081727
>newfag doesn't know things
To be expected. Would be nice if you lurked a bit, though.

>>723076915
I can think of an entire genre

>>723083025
>reddit spacing

>>723064326 (OP)
>How are you supposed to survive as a dev in the current market?
The guy who made Astlibra worked a wagie job during the 15 years it took to make his magnum opus. This is the realistic path to being an indie dev. Just make games as a hobby, because there's no guarantee it'll succeed or even get noticed.

>>723081308
>there was nothing on a technical or quality level wrong with its gameplay
I just dont think thats true. Concord was a round based character shooter where if you won a round with a character you couldnt play them again for that match. Punishing players for doing well isnt foreign to multiplayer games, (blue shell, v trigger) but that was a particularly terrible one that was very direct and unavoidable. The underlying game WAS bad.

>>723083175
>No argument

I accept

Your concession

Newfaggot

>>723083025
This. There is no point making an indy game with the cancerous AAA American west-coast mentality and people.

>>723083154
Fuck idle games in general

>>723077836
>Western cartoon art game
Pizza Tower and Antonblast did pretty well

>>723083309
I have had the same reply to your shit ass opinion the entire time
Games made for money are a good thing, because they actually deliver stuff people want
This gay ass passion angle doesnt work, because as we see with dustborn whats delivered is putrid dogshit

>>723082570
Cave Story was made by someone who is passionate video games
Dustborn was made by people who are passionate about government funded propaganda

>>723083306
>>723081308
Concord's gameplay loop and ability system was built for the likited rules of the competitive mode, but the casual mode suffered from altered game rules with the same mechanics. In addition the assets of the maps all were noted as homogeneous and gave players poor distinction not just from location on the map to other locations but even from map to map.

>>723083154
If the whole point of a game is to jack off or push progressive poltics and the mechanics & loop are secondary, then the game won't be good. Games are games. The game needs to be good. Adding either of the above doesn't make it good.

>>723069160
>Inspired by
Fuck off. Why would I play your game when I can play the game you ripped off instead?

>>723083306
>>723083679
At the very worst it was a competent 7/10. It had gameplay decisions that could have been reversed had it not sank in record time. The real damage was very much caused by the average character looking like the worst California Bluesky user design stereotypes imaginable.

>>723083774
we ripped it off but changed the things we didn't like and couldn't bully the devs to change in their game

>>723071938
Trvkenvke

>>723083556
>This gay ass passion angle doesnt work, because as we see with dustborn whats delivered is putrid dogshit
Not every game made by a passionate dev is gonna be something you like, because we are all different people. What some guy that likes sucking cock and posting on tumblr and resetera is passionate about is unlikely to be what either of us are passionate about.

But what that dev shares in common with other indie devs that make games that might interest you (Or at least interest me. I'll name some examples here so that I'm not speaking vaguely. Here's some great indie games I enjoyed that released this year: Blue Prince, The Siege and the Sandfox, The Drifter, The Warrior) is that they are simply putting out what they want to play into the world. This is a good thing. This kind of passion is what makes indie games worth playing.

Your retarded thinking that "Game made for money are a good thing" is evidently false when you look at the endless gachaslop, remakeslop, open world slop and shit like Battlefield 6. All of which are successful in general. Meanwhile, something like Expedition 33 did happen to end up being successful, but it was clearly made out of passion and could have very well not be. Whether a game ends up piercing through the zeitgeist and making a large enough impact to be a big success is irrelevant to whether that game is actually good or not.

>>723064326 (OP)
Make your game appealing at a glance. I can assure 99% of the slop in the Steam Store is skimmed over within ~1 second simply by not being a style that's appealing to the person you're trying to sell the game to.
Good style invites people to look at it a bit more. Also known as, STOP USING UGLY CHARACTERS/ART.

>>723064326 (OP)
Why do indie developers want to sell?

If they have spent so much time learning higher math why don't they just join some construction company to design render crap or lidar scanning software? Or better yet, why don't they just go in a trade and earn hard money?

Why do they expect they should follow the market, develop in a window, crunch etc? They're not ubisoft selling slop to the masses, they're nobodies, might as well do work of love instead.

>>723084098
Love doesn't pay bills.

>>723084014
Every game ever made thats not f2p was made for money
>its fine that its the worst thing ever made at least they were trolling from the start
retard

>>723064326 (OP)
This is why games suck now. Even this indie dev is giving up on a good gameplay loops over fluff graphics and theming.

>>723084225
>Every game ever made thats not f2p was made for money
Retard
>its fine that its the worst thing ever made at least they were trolling from the start
Who the fuck are you quoting? Holy shit.

Of course "being good" isn't enough.
The game needs to look interesting to attract interest.

Every chef understands this, if your food looks like garbage, insisting that it tastes good won't help.

Game devs need to understand that making things appealing is part of their job

>>723084382
This

Age old mantra of the kitchen. "People taste with their eyes."

>>723064326 (OP)
What if you played bottom left and then 3 months later the OP talks about this exact game?

>>723069160
When the main girl in your team is a brown girl, like the recent trails games.

>>723067626
Vampire Survivors is perfect clip bait. It's nothing but easily-interpreted flash.
>wow, ten million axe
>wow, so much XP
>wow, damage numbers everywhere
You look at it and you immediately know it's the vidya equivalent of a pokie and that's enough to hook millions.

>>723069160
>Diagonally Isometric
>City Builder
>Deck Builder
>Western Visual Novel
>Walk and Talk segments
>Any tranny characters
>Knack
>Devs take away mechanics from an earlier version
>Free to Play slop
I just found this looking for pics

>>723084382
475 KB
>Of course "being good" isn't enough.
>The game needs to look interesting to attract interest.
If a game doesn't look interesting enough then it isn't "good."

>>723084870
I forgot one
>Roguelike added to any of these

>>723069160
>the gearbox logo shows up before you even get to the main menu
>crafting/survival
>procedurally generated anything
>anything modern bioware/activision/ea

>>723069160
>Roguelike mentioned and emphasized.
>Random card based stats.
>Isometric view with hex tiles.
I dont know why indies are flooded with these uninspired tabletop RPG inspired mechanics.

>>723081984
>retard
No I'm saying you're wrong because evidence doesn't back up your claim and you can't handle that you got called out for being a retard so now you're hiding behind fallacies. Concession accepted, know your place and fucking kneel you shitstain.

>>723080938
>it lacks the social aspect of something equivalent to the high scores list
I don't think you have ever played a gacha, or even paid 5 seconds of attention to threads about gacha.

>>723084148
Tell that to the oldest profession in the world.

>>723069160
I can handle non white man characters if they are a little girl or some kind of non human creature.

>>723064550
>bigg titty biiiitch
>stay away!
Kek

>>723064326 (OP)
I love watching these sheltered retards realize that quality and success aren't intrinsically tied to each other. Yeah, buddy. Life isn't always fair. You should have learned that in elementary school.

>>723064326 (OP)
why are indie devs such crabs
it's not uncommon to see some literally who seethe and rage at one of their peers finding success

>>723086107
Now that you mention it, I do remember a high scores list in Genshin's endgame.
That's about the only gacha I've played since I specifically don't care about gooner games nor do I have the money it takes to enjoy collecting PNGs. I certainly don't engage in the gacha threads; you know, ignoring what you don't care about? Imagine.
So yes, I will rescind that point of my argument.

>>723084073
>Make your game appealing at a glance.
Appealing to who though? I bet there's stuff we both would have liked equally but you bought it and I didn't. Because the presentation appealed to you and not me. And no one has a fix for that. My point being indies chasing trends and marketing is just another app store lottery. Most of the time your game will fail to reach critical mass for no reason other than the people who might have helped promote it were otherwise occupied. If megabonk had been passed over as yet another shitty vampire survivors in 3D we'd be having another discussion about how trend chasing meme bullshit will just make you go broke.

Do you every think about how there were less than 400 n64 games and less than 2000 ps games and now we get 25,000 games released a year, every year.

>>723086232
That ain't love, that's lust.

>>723064326 (OP)
What if I don't want to make a popular a d successful game? What if I just want to make a game for myself to autisticly play like some form of bizarre masturbation

>>723085905
>No I'm saying you're wrong because evidence doesn't back up your claim and you can't handle that you got called out for being a retard
Nope, I wasn't the anon you initially responded and yet surprisingly that's not the biggest indicator that you're a retard here. Your entire argument is literally that there's no evidence that quality leads to success, based entirely on the fact that you have a personal disagreement, which is entirely subjective, as to what the word "quality" means in the context of video games. But of course we're not talking about YOUR opinion in this context, we're talking about the opinion of the general market that buys and plays video games. That's what this entire thread is about and your inability to divorce your personal feelings from what's actually being discussed is what makes you such a mental retard.
>so now you're hiding behind fallacies.
You couldn't name any "fallacies" in my post and you won't even be able to mention any even if you respond to me again, because like I said, you are genuinely not intelligent enough to engage in this discussion, anon.

>>723079121
The problem with your thought pattern is this: Vampire Survivors is a basic game, yes (gameplay wise) but it does something that the vast majority of current games don't do - you get hundreds of hours of actually compelling content, unlocks, new features, challenges, etc, etc all baked in. Couple that with the low price and you can't understand why the game was a success and is actually way more of an actual video game than 99% of all of the other shit coming out these days?

>>723086657
>25,000 games released a year, every year
and not a single one good

>>723086560
Game devs are logical people, you have to to convince computers to do things, it's how it works. But marketing is not logical, it frustrates them. And sycophantic praise is inversely proportional to work put out. If you attempt something and it's not that hard for you and you fail, you don't care much, you can applaud the guy that succeeded even if you think it was just dumb luck. If you worked really damn hard and you think yours is better but the other guy is now a billionaire because all the streamers clout chasing HAD to play it... well that'll chafe even the most altruistic person.

>>723086735
then just fucking do it? nobody stops you, there are plenty of people who are just hobbyist gamedevs, and even people who are not even working on a specific projects but just fucking around with mechanics/graphics/shaders/whatever for fun

>>723086797
>Nope, I wasn't the anon you initially responded
Stopped reading there. It doesn't matter if you are or aren't the anon I responded to. You posted in defense of the argument so you open yourself to rebuttal. What I stated is a fact. Concession accepted. Shut the fuck up, learn your place.

>>723076489
A faster carriage, you dipshit.

>>723086870
I've recently got into a game called Card Survival: Tropical Island that one is pretty okay if you got the right autism.

>>723077175
Fair, and i wouldn't argue against an individual for staying that they like to play games, video or otherwise. It isn't helpful for demographic research, marketing or social grouping to lump them all together, and you wouldn't expect a book club to be reading The Cat in the Hat.

>>723086657
The only time an indie dev could make a game and hope to make millions out of it was the early 80s.
And at the time making a game required extensive computer knowledge, so it's not like anyone could do it.

>>723064830
>redditfrog
didnt read your post

>>723081308
Anon, a game is cohesive whole made up of a combination of different elements. It cannot possibly be the "greatest in thing in the world" if some one aspect of it is so unbelievably dogshit it brings the entire thing down to unplayable status.

>>723086937
It does matter because you made a claim that I couldn't handle being "called out for being a retard", despite the fact that you didn't call me out for anything. I was just pointing that out as yet another indicator that you're simply too low IQ to have this discussion; the fact that the original anon you responded to was right and you were wrong is incidental.
But you're at least correct that I opened myself up to rebuttal, a rebuttal which you've so far been unable to provide because (even in your own words) you weren't even able to read the posts you're supposedly rebutting.

>>723079121
dopamine and instant gratification are king anon, the moment a game gives the slightest push back or friction people scream that it's lacking "quality of life", "accessibility" or is "wasting" the player's time, people just want a hit of that dopamine and that's it

this also reminds me of the roguelite side of things, games like spelunky or necromancer demand true mastery by the player, whereas nowadays the big titles are games like rogue legacy or hades with permanent progression bullshit, so it's more like the game's a long grind instead, I remember watching the latest state of play, being kind of excited for saros since it looked good and then immediately losing all interest with the "always come back stronger" line

you cannot ever have a game that meaningfully builds on mechanics and truly tests the player anymore, all you get is a deluge of complaints from journos, steam forums, reddit and even faggots from here

>>723087528
>It does matter because you made a claim that I couldn't handle
That's a you problem. Retards get mad when you call them retarded but that doesn't change the fact that they are what they are. Your spergout is par for the course. Take this as a moment to learn from your mistake and try being less retarded next time. You're welcome.

>>723064326 (OP)
>huffing copium for making garbage
yeah i feel real bad for you son, try make a decent game next time alright? I dont buy trash

>>723087528
I understand saying this (especially here of all places) is antithetical to the purpose of an internet forum, but it is never worthwhile to interact with retards, Anon. Save your energy and your time for those who are deserving. That guy you are talking to has a 0% chance of become self-aware enough to realize his mistakes before this top reaches post limit. Hell, I'd wager he has a damn near 0% chance of it happening in his life.

>>723087697
You are dunning-kruger incarnate

>>723087697
>That's a you problem.
Well I guess it would have been if you had actually originally responded to me, but like I already told you twice now, you didn't. But even the idea that more than one person could be responding to you seems to be too much for your sub-Saharan African brain to handle, let alone concepts like subjectivity or hypotheticals. How would you feel if you hadn't eaten breakfast today, anon?

>>723064326 (OP)
He’s right, but this isn’t same groundbreaking revelation. It’s just how you market in the current year.
Your product still needs substance.

>>723087913
I guess you're right. He might be a complete retard but at the end of the day so am I for interacting with him seriously. Thanks, anon.

>>723088019
Lash out all you want. I'm just going to accept your concession because you're proving me correct.
>>723088035
>retard doubles down on something irrelevant
Odd that you're having such a difficult time understanding something so simple anon. Thanks for making this easy though. Concession accepted.

>>723088183
feeling hungry anon?

>>723088135
It's an unfortunate trap that not too many people learn to overcome. Rest assured that you aren't as bad as him by the simple virtue of having done 0.5 seconds of self-reflection on your interactions with him - an unreachable goal for his ilk. Best of luck with future posts, I hope you do not grab the attention of bottom of the barrel mouthbreathers like him again.

>>723087517
>It cannot possibly be the "greatest in thing in the world" if some one aspect of it is so unbelievably dogshit it brings the entire thing down to unplayable status.
Yes it can. If the gameplay is an 11/10 but the aesthetic is fucking horrendous, by all virtues it is a game suffering from failure thanks to its own visual crisis.

>>723088073
How does he plan to deal with the 2 hour refund window though ?

>>723083025
>The latter already exist in mass on Steam, and they overwhelm the former. They make the industry hostile to the former. This is not based as fuck.
FTFY

>>723071016
The indie dev scene has been going on for like 20 years now. Where's the Henry Ford among them?

>>723079163
this
if they don't give a fuck about troons and leftists that means they care about video games only and the game is good
there is not a single bad game with pretty women

>>723083556
>Games made for money are a good thing, because they actually deliver stuff people want
lolno, they deliver slop for pigs

>>723074221
Fantastic. Can we see the game?

>>723081384
>ew those vile heckin' videogame playerinos
Slop. Faggot never bothers to mention retards that spent their entire lives in front of their tv's watching and not participating in anything that goes on screen.

>>723081338
You forgot the 600 million in funding and a jew that hates white people for the lead character designer. He's now a lead designer at blizzard by the way.

>>723081338
b-b-b-but woke bad

>>723071976
Most consumers do not want good games. That's why games became so casualized after the mid-2000s. As such, being a good game does not sell the game.

>>723064326 (OP)
>marketing is the primary reason why things sell
No shit? We have known that since the dawn of mankind.

>>723090770
Aesthetics isn't marketing, it just plays into it.

>>723064326 (OP)
this guy is a retard. by his logic genre fiction simply wouldn't exist.

Seems like cope to me

>>723064830
>>723074760
If the world really worked on "just make good things" then the concept of hidden gems wouldn't exist. Something being excellent by itself is not a standout virtue in our society.

By getting a proper job and making video games as a hobby in your spare time.

>>723069160
It won't stop me from buying anything, but I fucking hate that stupid "you can pet the dog" shit.

>>723064326 (OP)
>Game needs marketing
most indies ARE not game developers, and that's fine.

>i care more about being rich than making art that i want to make

subhumans like this are the reason modern gaming is total dogshit and its so fucking hard to actually find games that are actually good.

Fuck you. If you just want money, go to business school and start sucking billionaire cock.

>>723091880
games aren't art dumbass, and never have been
they are a product to be sold
your ESL ass has been spamming this shit for hours now

>>723081338
>FACT
>completely omits that the entire game was government funded

classic leftist deceitful disingenuous manipulative bullshit. you people are actually such fucking despicable trash its incredible.

>>723081308
The gameplay looked generic as hell, like a bad overwatch clone. It was done to hell and back by like 2017.

>>723092192
now explain to me why art cannot be a product that is sold, you utter fucking mongoloid. Is the guy down the street from me who sells his paintings at a garage sale not making art because he's selling it?

>>723091880
holy based. i was about to type out something similar. its grim how the whole indie scene is just a bunch of normies farming for money, validation and fame.

>>723082420
>90%+ of indie devs on Steam DON'T MAKE MONEY from their games
but they did make money? government grants literally paid the employee payroll

>>723092268
NTA but not true

>>723092603
Based art funders
/vpol/ seething

>>723092603
>1.39M is not enough to fund a game with Dustborne's scope
lol

>>723092603
>acktually we only got over a million USD from the government!!!
>also we had publishers!

>meanwhile the anon glazing the game is claiming its completely indie and self published out of passion

lmao

>>723064326 (OP)
Laz is still alive that's cool
MXL did things that no other ARPG has really even tried to do since and that's really a shame

>>723092603
/v/ being utterly impotent against this is a good thing

>>723074760
Blindly listening to feedback isnt good either. You must have an intuitive understanding of what’s constructive and what’s not when listening to other people’s opinions which is an innate ability that most people lack.

>>723092603
>it was only a few million dollars chud
lol

>>723068265
true

He already fucked up by going into it wanting to make a game that sells.
Make the game you want and just be authentic.

>>723067164
So did 8 million other dev-niggers.

>>723083556
>Games made for money are a good thing, because they actually deliver stuff people want
This just in, Blizzard is the best company in the world for making billions!

>>723070272
based

>>723064830
A game with amazing gameplay and amazing story can sell like absolute shit if it’s not marketed properly.

The brutal reality of any artistic medium is that you have to have the head of both a businessman AND an artist if you want to achieve great success. Most people are only good at one of these things, if either at all.

>>723065086
I want to add to >>723065987 but "companies" deliberately avoid hiring people that WANT to make games and hired woman and tranny that actively HATE game and/or part of their social circle. That is why most ((Western)) gaming companies are full of hundreds of HRs, Managers, CM, and "social media" people while outsoucing their actual coding to India.

>>723081308
>>723088918
Anon you're retarded. The visuals are part of the game. Videogames are not simply an assortment of hitboxes and numbers.

Secondly, Megabonk looks like this and is currently the #6 game on Steam.

>>723093196
cherry picking looser

>>723064326 (OP)
*they already have an arpg” yah and if ypi made a good one then Id play your’s too you whingy little faggot.

>>723092603
>but it's not enough to find a game with Dustborne's scope
how is that possible? Do they need to 50 artists to create an ugly character with vitiligo?

megabonk literally came out of nowhere and did well and it is not cause of the fucking memes
the gameplay is fun and people like survivors-type games

>want to make a game
>ideal/dream game would require at least a middle market budget to fully realise
>try to make a simpler game, but keep getting bored mid development because it’s not the kind of game I want to make

I don’t know how indie devs make games on peanuts without being thoroughly underwhelmed by the scope of their games. I’m genuinely wondering if it would just be better for me to save up a bunch of cash and hire a studio rather than go the indie route.

>>723064326 (OP)
Make a weird anime game on Github, hope Manlybadasshero plays it, then pivot to what you really want after getting an audience.

>>723093896
>*they already have an arpg” yah and if ypi made a good one then Id play your’s too
Maybe (You) would, but the millions that play Path of Exile and only Path of Exile because their parasocial youtuber friends also only play Path of Exile wouldn't, and thus the game would fail financially no matter how better it might be. We are literally seeing exactly that happening with Last Epoch.

>>723092603
>1.4 million dollary doos in grant money
>not enough for dustborn
HahahahaahahahahahHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH

>>723091610
Hidden gems do not exist. Everything you think is a "hidden gem" is just something you might personally enjoy but is in fact terrible. If something is good, it succeeds. Always.

>>723093781
Yeah, Megabonk looks quirky and entertaining. People were sold on getting to play as Gigachad and Calcium and then they looked into it further and found Risk of Rain meets Vampire Survivors.

You're only proving the point further that aesthetics come first above all.

>>723094334
>>723093924
They're just scamming the system at this point. Just like Goodbye Volcano High and how they stolen millions of dollars from Canadian tax money

>>723094303
is last epoch really a better arpg? haven't seen any discussion about it anywhere

>goblins
Boring enemies. Why us it always goblins?

>>723064326 (OP)
It has never been more over for serious, story driven vidya

>>723094409
There are good games that sold terribly. God Hand is perhaps the most famous example. It completely bombed both critically and commercially, but is looked back on as one of the all time great action games.

>>723094706
The fact that God Hand is looked back on as one of the all time great action games means that it is not a hidden gem. You're just giving yet more evidence that good games always succeed.

>>723094831
lol u mad

>>723094831
It did NOT succeed initially though and didn’t get a critical reappraisal until almost a decade after the fact. It probably would have fell into obscurity or become lost media if it wasn’t for the small cult following of people who DID play it drawing attention to it.

>>723064326 (OP)
>>723094692
there used to be flash games that 90% of the developed world played because they were so quick to pull you in, so ubiquitous, and fun that they demanded you play them. Indie games that have low price points on a massive marketplace are doing the same thing. None of this is new.

>>723095038
So what if it didn't have immediate success? It had eventual success, because as said, good games always succeed. Only bad games fail, fall into obscurity, and become lost media.

>>723087626
Recent roguelites still offer a decent challenge and older ones like Spelunky also had permanent progression systems

>>723064326 (OP)
>intentionally bad design to make players feel smart
this man is going places

>>723095205
The thing about those flash games though is that they were often small, humble games you could finish in around 10 minutes. Indie games by contrast are trying to compete with console games, and as a result are expected to have hours of content and thus be a bit more ambitious in general. The result of that is that games become more demanding to make. You could pump out most flash games in a few weeks or months if dev time. Not so with most indie games.

>>723086527
I like seeing people who deserve to be shaken from their hubris learn better, but I don't see the joy in someone being told "how good your product is doesn't matter", that's a bit of a sad anti-moral. Were they arrogant or something?

>>723095580
Binding of Isaac is a humongous success and its a flash game.

>>723087853
Do you buy period?

>>723086527
Quality IS intrinsically tied to success. The actual problem is that a lot of sheltered people don't actually know how to produce quality. They think they do only to get a harsh wake up call that, no, what you made isn't actually good.

>>723092192
Videogames are art, how is this even debatable in 2025? Literally any excuse to strip that recognition away falls flat because it is a creative expression from someone's imagination made into media. Interactivity does not stop it from being art.

>>723095801
Is good your product is DOES matter, but it’s not going to get anywhere if no one is aware the product exists.

As much as wannabe artists bemoan the business side of art, the truth is you do have to court the business side to some extent to be a successful artists.

I feel like alot of indie devs don’t ask “what sets my game apart from other games, who is my audience, and how can I push that?”. More indie games would succeed if they did this.

>>723092603
Money laundering confirmed. The gameplay in Dustborn was minimal and extremely scripted.

>>723095580
if you really dig into the most popular indie games they're just extended versions of flash or arcade games. Plenty of flash games also offered tons of hours of playtime and weren't just things like "spank the monkey". An average playtime of the Phil Fish classic, Fez, is like 6 hours. Papers, Please is like 5 to 7. People seriously overestimate how much playtime you need for a market success and look at things that have been in development for like 10 years and have MASSIVE followings e.g. stardew valley.

You're not them. I don't really see what /v/ hates in all these indie devs in that they're "arrogant" so much as they want to be ConcernedApe or Wube in a year but that shit is simply never going to be realistic. They had good concepts, a steady update and release schedule, and most importantly had solid communities which essentially marketed for them. It's still possible but there are so many "good enough" devs that have saturated the market, you need to get REALLY lucky.

>>723096107
Because of platforms like Steam, people become aware of the product just by it being published and made publicly available. Stuff like Steam completely abstracts away the business side. Good games are absolutely guaranteed to be found.

He's right. You want to make money you gotta play the game. Doesn't matter how good your game is without the right marketing.

>>723081338
>Love what they're doing and keep at it anyway
>Literally made free content updates for their flop game just to improve it for the few people that actually like it
>Still have more content updates in the pipeline
>Already working on the next game they're passionate about

None of these things happened, frogposter is a lying tranny.

>>723096354
The quality of the game IS the marketing. Marketing isn't going to sell a bad game (anyone you manage to con will just refund it), whereas for a good game it's completely redundant because people will naturally find it on its own if it's good.

>>723066704
bro this is the most retarded thing to say right after megabonk came out, clearly the move is to just ripoff all the latest flavor of the month garbage but just make sure you do it flashier than everyone else

>>723096574
>just make sure you do it flashier than everyone else
Megabonk is Vampire Survivors with platforming gimmick. They did innovate enough to be different from the rest.

>>723066704
Megabonk was not marketed. It succeeded because it was good.

Marketing is fundamentally useless. If the game is bad, marketing just exposes how bad it is. If the game is good, people will demand it anyways making marketing redundant.

>>723064326 (OP)
>transition
>start only fans
>find an indian bf who is a software dev too
>make videogames together
it's that easy

>>723096532
Plenty of quality games go under the radar, while many shitty games sell millions. Just look at the gacha slop phenomenon

>>723064326 (OP)
>>723064830
>just make stuff that doesnt suck shit.
This.
I have literally never seen a good game on Steam fail. Sometimes, shit games can succeed. But I've never, ever seen a good game fail.

>>723069997
>my idea will surely be successful and popular
why are you even assuming that, that's what they all think bud

>>723069160
>game is full price

>>723096765
>Plenty of quality games go under the radar
Can you name even one?

Good quality games always succeed. This is empirical fact.

>>723096354
Same applies to any product. A good PC is better than a Mac, but Apple does marketing better than Microsoft, so some are convinced Apple is better.

>>723096865
Rise of Legends.

>>723096456
Money was stolen from you and your family to give to the disgusting creatures that made this, never ever forget that. I started stealing from my local library and recycling center, dont feel a twinge of guilt, i want to start branching out my portfolio to other, more expensive government assets. Post ideas. Take back from government, destroy government infrastructure if you can, make sure they have less.

>>723096918
How is selling over a million copies considered going under the radar?

>>723064326 (OP)
He's completely right. It's retarded, annoying and sucks, but it's true.
The literal only thing that matters is how many people's attention you can grab within only two or three seconds. For them to actually judge anything else you've already crossed the largest hurdle.

>>723096868
It's not marketing, it's better aesthetics, which is part of the product, not the marketing. People care about aesthetics, which is why phones now all have internal antennas despite it being less efficient and reliable than an external antenna. A good PC may be better in some technical areas inside the case, but Macs has better aesthetics in its outer casing, making it a better product in the eyes of some customers. It's not the marketing.

>>723096808
>>723096865
but you're just going to say the game is shit because it didn't succeed, but also it didn't succeed because its shit... hmm

>>723083556
There was nothing passionate about Dustborn, you were lied to un marketing.

>>723097283
>but you're just going to say the game is shit because it didn't succeed
No. Success doesn't make a game good. Everyone's seen shit games succeed.
But I have literally never seen a genuinely good game fail. Literally never.
If you have an example, show me.

>>723096294
>Good games are absolutely guaranteed to be found.
Good games have the TOOLS to be found, but the influx of ao many games year after year make me believe oversaturation adds difficulty for the cream to rise to the top.

>>723069160
Roguelike
Survival craft
MMO
Cards (no judgement though, just don't like em)
AAA

>>723097475
good games die all the fucking time because they didn't get discovered in time and the dev had to jump ship to get a real job. You're being disingenuous but what can I expect, it's /v/

>>723097567
All it does is increase the bar for what's considered "good." As a consumer you should be happy because it means games are getting better every year.

>>723097714
>good games die all the fucking time
Then surely you can give me even one example?
>You're being disingenuous
How is asking for an example of something allegedly happening "all the fucking time" being disingenuous?

>>723097714
>good games die all the fucking time because they didn't get discovered in time and the dev had to jump ship to get a real job.
By your own definition they didn't die because they got discovered eventually. Good games always succeed even if it takes a little time.

>>723097240
I picked an example to make myself understood.
In terms of cars it's the same with say Tesla now, their cars aren't that great but they're considered a luxury brand, so they're seen as more valuable than something like Mercedes despite not being that great.
The PC is better because it can run more software btw, games, study-related and work-related.

>>723097475
what do you mean fail or succeed? like the devs made enough to live right above the poverty line or they made enough to have more money than the average american or what?

also it's hard to even say because I don't know the number of devs employed vs the budget vs their profit

anyway I've seen plenty of games with very positive reviews but below 3k reviews

>>723097994
Tesla just proves the point even more because Tesla literally does zero marketing. All the products sell on their own.

>>723097743
To a degree I agree but I also caution on the generalization. Indie games are by and large cheaper but people still have limited funds for games and limited time to play them. If 10 amazing indie games come out this year and 20 next year, I doubt the revenue of game #9 year 2 will have the audiance or concurrent players that #9y1 did.
In general having a larger number of games on the list makes it harder for the not top tier games to thrive unless they specifically appeal to a genre or advance it well enough.

>>723098153
Yeah, game #9 year 2 had less sales because it was a worse game due to the bar for being good rising.

>>723098057
3k reviews is decent success for a game
if it wasnt profitable thats a management problem, nothing to do with game quality

>>723097893
>>723097901
Earthbound did so poorly in the US that they didn't bother with translations for M3 .

>>723098080
Musk is a celebrity, his twitter posts serve as marketing.

>>723098306
Yet Earthbound is by no means obscure or a hidden gem. Everyone knows what Earthbound is. It succeeded.

>>723064326 (OP)
>the gang makes a video game
the post