Thread 723104317

I don't get the appeal of these games. The combat is slow and unresponsive, the city management is like chewing cardboard, the politics are one-dimensional point accumulation
Where is the fun?

>>723104317 (OP)
Sending thousands of men to their death. And they are the best battle simulators ever made.

>>723104317 (OP)
zoom zoom

>>723104478
See that's what the fans seem to like, they think it's "epic"
>>723104719
I'd rather play AoE one or Starcraft than this slow braindead shit

MARCH UNTIL YOUR FEET BLEED YOU MEN

>>723104932
Yup, zoom zoom

>>723105737
Bet your gay littlechant makes you feel slightly less bad

>>723104317 (OP)
It's from a time where people were still into the whole epic battle aesthetic.
I can explain a part of the puzzle. Brick and mortar stores used to have undue influence over what games become successful. Why did cRPG games like Baldur's Gate and Dragon Age stop appearing suddenly? Clearly, we've realized there was always demand for these. It's because small-minded business owners refused to sell these games. They advertised stuff like CoD because they in their warped sense of the audience thought that would sell better.

Total War is a series from a time where you sold games at malls. Now, that era is over, and you're right to question. What the fuck was the appeal besides the banger ads and banner art?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7RHiyWHuV0

I wish they'd make another napoopan/empire style game, but with the more detailed overworld mechanics and ui philosophy of Rome/ medieval 2

>>723104932
AoE and Starcraft are an arcadey, nonsimulationist garbage

>>723104317 (OP)
you wouldn't get it

>>723106247
Wow that's from 2010? His face looks like AI slop

>>723104317 (OP)
you sound like a complete retard
try the warhammer games

>>723106360
They are fun and engaging on a cognitive level, rather than being for a fatass midwitt jerking off over amillion dudes suffering and dying epically on his behalf

>>723104317 (OP)
Following the drama between volund and CA's shill army. I don't even play the game I just like watching 40kids get mad.

It has a very high level of simulating battles and war in a streamlined format that is easy to pick up rather than reading a manual. Total War was always THAT game when it came to historical battle re-enactments in vidya. It's a shadow of its former self along with it being financially captured by GW's drones who willingly throw money at anything resembling their painted minis.

>>723106329
An Empire game where it spans the entire world from the beginning of the 15th century (rise of Portugal) to the end of 18th century (End of the VOC) would be GOAT status.

>>723106906
That makes sense, from a very young age I preferred science and math over history and linguistics so it makes sense that I'm not a fan

>>723107293
If you were in college during the 2000s, the chances of you bumping into someone who played Total War and was studying about Rome or the Medieval Era were very high.

I'm a zoomer who's into history and I like the older Total War games, Rome 2 and Shogun mainly. It's for reenacting battles, seeing how different units clash. The AI is brain dead but then you have mods like Europa Barbarorum that's probably the most autistic shit ever made in the video game history. Never touched the MP aspect of these games. Maybe I should.

Total War had the best morale system ever devised in a RTT/RTS game. The numbers and the elite expensive units didn't really matter unless you knew how to moral shock and chain rout units correctly like an actual good commander. Them ditching it for a fucking life bar in future titles was fucking insane.

>>723107235
A game with eu4 diplomacy and total war battles would be kino but unfortunately it will never ever happen

>>723107770
Shogun 2 is genuinely a masterpiece of a game.
When it comes to the MP, you're not missing out on much if you never touch it.

>>723104317 (OP)
>>723104932
Aha, an RTS spastic. Figures!

>>723107891
Shogun 2 almost bankrupted CA, hence in future titles they became money-shy.

The fact that the games aren't perfectly responsive is fun. Medieval 2 rotating cav charges is kino.

>>723107473
Sounds like my older brother lol.
I like the art and music. I was pretty hyped up with the music design, voiceovers and quotations in Rome 1 but then I beat the first battle and started managing my settlements and it felt like my brain turned into mush. I pushed out a bunch of troops and got ambushed a few times. Stomped a few settlements. I didn't feel like a leader within an ancient cultural value system I felt like a janitor pushing a mop
AoE1,2 and Starcraft use their campaigns to actually surprise you and occasionally use your imagination about what these people might have been going through

The most satisfying cavalry mechanic ever put into vidya.

>>723107293
The games are called Total War because they simulate war on a full scale. Not just sending troops to their deaths, but also the entire economy behind it. As well as managing a state. The mechanics flow into each other. You manage your faction to generate income so you can move your troops. The game even simulates abstract concepts like morale. Meanwhile, in Age of Empires and the likes, units are automatons willing to charge into their deaths if you command them to.

If you were as analytical as you claim to be, you would have realized this. Frankly, you come across as autistic and a bit unintelligent. No offense.

Is Total War the only game that actually has an ordered retreat gameplay mechanic into its strategy? Like how you you must arrange your troops to retreat in good order and create a rearguard to help the other units leave the map while also doing as much casualties as you can.

>>723108114
I like studying electricity because it shows the behavior of things under a system of complete and total force. Human beings holistically are nothing like electricity and yes total war makes efforts to be more realistic than AoE on this front. There's a huge gap between human minds and the forces which enable reality, like the way DNA instructs he arrangement of proteins according to mathematical patterns. I think that video games should mind that gap and not try to hard to sit in the middle

>>723108294
You do this a lot in Starcraft due to the imbalance of unit function and value

>unit is breaking
>have to full gallop my cav or inspiring unit that's fighting the enemy's equivalent to support them lest their rout into my fucking lines
There's no other game quite like it.

>>723108487
>value
I should have said cost actually

IMPE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tf5qwoCE6eY

One of the few franchises that actually deserve the title of "ludokino".

>>723109901
The gameplay is bad though

>>723110060
I disagree.

>>723108487
yeah youre an autistic schizoid
also, NTW3 IS KINO

https://youtu.be/pVR7vx4RZCg

>>723110241
>that video
There is no way you understand what is happening there
This is not the way war was ever experienced by anyone
A more abstracted game is much more emotionally honest

>>723110241
The realistic experience of war was a chain of minds from top to bottom each with their own type of persuasive character and tactical thought based on the structural relation between one mind and another

Starcraft does a better job at getting across the concepts of hierarchy, persuasion and betrayal in its brilliant campaign.
AoE1 is hit or miss, Land Grab and Holy man put you in uniquely exaggerated tactical situations which force you to think sideways

>>723110443
>>723110572
fuck off with your AI nigger thoughts, nobody cares
came here to share my kinda dream TW game
its basically multiplayer only, like a 10v10 match, maybe focused on the napoleonic era or the american civil war. think something like TW arena. tho, you get to control up to 6 units minimum, and the overarching campaign map is persistently online. the entire war changes based on how well your team does: the more ground you control, the more you get, stuff like supply, ammo, food, and fresh recruits. it wouldn't be the allday slog of ntw3, but it definitely wouldn't have the simplified feel of a vanilla shogun or warhammer either

You look through you screens thinking "yes war it has so many dudes killing each other, just like in all of those big wars"
But to each individual it was a tactically rich kaleidoscope. from the soldier wondering what his friend next to him will, do to the captain trying to keep all his men following the commands he receives from above, to the tactician who knows nothing of what the soldier goes through

>>723111000
>AI nigger
I knew the day would come that midwitts would begin to classify anything they don't like or understand as AI. Maybe learn-2-program so you can actually make your game and stop being a midwitt

>>723111139
you are a midwit. you're shitting out gpt word salads I can recognize the gpt slop, that's what you're doing anonymously on a sunday evening. nobody cares, midwit. go talk with your AI lover alone and by all means invent a big brain giga 200iq rts and do reform the genre please because I'm tired of most rts too!

>>723108294
Yeah I think good RTS games are actually a nice example of this too, usually losing a fight involves sacrificing units so the rest of your army can get away, and that depends on how you decide what's more valuable

>>723111324
You must have a lot of experience with AI to have that impression lol.
I must have impressed you unconsciously since you're going through all this effort to discredit my words. My games are pretty bad right now I have to admit but simplicity is king for a good system. I'm trying to iron out my stupid fucking algorithms without AI because of my massive ego but hopefully I'll have some results in a few months

>>723108294
No because that not how retreating works in total war. If you want to leave the battle with the least casualties possible you need to have all your units route at once and lose because the AI can't kill your units once the battle ends.

>>723111582
if this is your upcoming game
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2878450/Master_of_Command/

then yeah AI is dumb as fuck man!

>>723112057
I was going to make fun but it looks like they made some cool systems to simulate the individual experience integrated with the collective.
I do not like the artstyle at all though but I can't hate when they have something which looks to be mostly complete and comprehensive. The artstyle reminds me of 90s educational games lol.
Best wishes to that developer, doesn't look like my cuppa tea

>>723106619
lol wut. Every RTS game /v/ jizzes itself over is easy as fuck. SC1 was literally made for children.

>>723106906
SSHIP sucks.

>>723112585
It has a satisfying difficulty curve that gradually expands the need for a good army composition and special skill utilization, which continues from vanilla into Brood War. God I do sound like Chat GPT don't I?

>>723107884
For me itd Europa universalis but the battles are realtime. Ultimate general style, so potatoes can handle 10k soldiers on the field easily

Other RTSes tend to just focus on killing, rather than morale. They are more micro oriented, not about formations.

Paradox's campaign map experience is great but the battles are reduced to the most boiled down stats that don't allow you to really do any sense of generalship. Total war reduces the campaign map experience but enhances the battlefield.

In AOE units don't look different based on culture. I think they've started to make it so some cultures lack units, but if I am playing the moors I have the same unit selection as the teutons minus a unit or plus a unit or two. It'll lack the spectacle that two different cultures clashing has.

AOE and similar games are also vastly vastly smaller in scale. Bannerlord will regularly have larger battles than AOE, and that's a first person/third person game. Unless you do the cheat to increase the population limit. In AOE I am commanding maybe a few hundred men if I am lucky with a little map you can cross in a few minutes. In total war it'll take probably 10 minutes to cross the map for heavy infantry, I am commanding ~2000-3000 men versus the same. It's a perfect(ly flawed) balance between arcadey RTSes and the true hardcore grognard kinda shit.

And the production values are higher than Field of Glory 2.

>>723113408
>Field of Glory 2.
I must be autistic because that looks way more fun from the footage

>>723113408
>In AOE units don't look different based on culture.

this, unironically relic did a good job with aoe4

>>723113765
AoE4 is fuck ugly and the campaign introductions are gay history channel excerpts

Because no other game lets me hammer and anvil using infantry and cav-

>Actually cav is shit, just turtle with artillery

Well shit.

>zoomer OP can't comprehend that not everything is built for him and his sickly ilk
Many such cases.

>>723113534
I tried it and I like elements of it but the lack of battle music really just made it feel sterile. It strikes me as a charming bridge for the true grognard non-game player type.

One thing that it does that is cool is when a unit does a temporary retreat/rout your own unit may chase after them. I say may, it feels like always. This makes it so it's not as brain dead to hold a straight line. That's one area that total war really game-ifies the experience and makes people think it was easier than it was. Bannerlord surprisingly enough has shown me how difficult that can be. The whole strategy that Hannibal did and I think the Theban guy did isn't really doable in total war unless you start to lean on the Pharaoh ability to do fighting retreats backward movement.

Still, call it me being a beggar who can't be a chooser but while I sympathize with the WH people mad at the AI bugs I'm incredulous at their faggotry regarding "ABLOO BLOO BLOO THEY WON'T SUPPORT THIS WITH DLC PAST 2026". Nigger it's a 10 year old game at this point - I've waited 20 years for medieval 3 and I didn't get the campaign dlc I wanted for pharaoh. DLC wise they are acting like spoiled brats. Bug-wise they are completely correct to be mad at CA.

>>723114069
I'm 37

>>723104317 (OP)
yeah that's the classic total war formula (unless you overhaul with mods like DEI or master of strategy). but realistically how would you reform total war games?

>>723114182
That only makes it worse for you, OP. It's an attitude. A mindset. The fact you're this stunted at such an age is sad—for you. Worthless thread and this is mostly like a humiliation for you, and an example to rest.

>>723104317 (OP)
It's the only series that properly blends empire management and rts combat.

>>723114195
Supply Line management and the ability to enact mass rape

>>723114250
>mostly like a humiliation for you
Not at all. I can't imagine that those who type like yourself are productive individuals, so your opinion means very little to me.

>>723114376
>mass rape gives your troops +15% morale for the next turn

>>723114376
this and pops and genocide

>>723114195
Frankly I prefer roleplaying and action to dry simulation. I like having things that I can react to in themselves rather than having to deal with a series of generic events ad nauseam. So having a story driven campaign with interwoven tactical dilemmas would be a huge boost.
Crusader King's did a good take on roleplaying with empire management. Maybe this is too much for some but actually being able to control your avatar and explore your kingdom while also managing it would really enrich the experience. This would exponentially increase the scope though.

I had a thought about the chain-of-minds aspect to warfare and empire management.
A "soldier mode" would be mostly a tactical action game (this would be the first one to get scrapped imo, too many games have done this)
"Captain mode" would be a squad based tactics game
"Duke mode" would resemble Stronghold
and "King mode" would resemble crusadar kings.
If you could interweave all of this with adventure gameplay over your avater that could be really sweet. Absurd scope and would be tough to make it fun and rewarding without all of the effort going to waste

>>723114195
I'm not so butthurt on battlemap. The main thing for a historical line is to draw inspiration from the asymmetry of warhammer. Functionally a skaven, dark elf, high elf, human, lizardman spearmen are all something you can swap their model/animation to a human and they would function exactly the same way. There's no unique dissolving like demons or skellies or magic. Yet because of their animations and their design they are radically different: Helves are strong but brittle, skaven are cowardly and numerous, lizardmen are tanky but (in the past I think) would become uncontrollable ragers, delves have murderous prowess. What I hazily remember in R2 is that units did not feel dramatically different. I could have shittier spearmanii hold the line just fine and let me spank the enemy with cavalry. So using a hypothetical medieval 3 Sergeant Spearmen or equivalents?

>French Spearmen
- "Poor bloody infantry": French cavalry do not suffer any morale penalties seeing them waiver/rout. Maybe conversely French spearmen get a morale bonus in proximity to knights a'la Bretonnia?
- Strength in Numbers: Skaven trait
>Danish Spearmen
- "Fury of the Northmen": Stubborn and may become uncontrollable when in battle (lizardmen)
>English Spearmen
- "Left-hand man": Stat bonus when in close proximity to longbowmen (a'la Cathay Yinyang) and a stat weakness when not doing so.
>Italian Spearmen
- "Pavises": When activated, they plant their shield down and become rooted in place with a higher defense to the front and higher weakness to the flank/rear. Yet they cannot unroot unless (A) routing or (B) the enemy has ceased engaging them. Meaning you risk tying them down and allowing someone to flank them.

Unrealistic, but much more flavorful than Shogun 2 or R2 style "Exact same unit with a few stats difference".

>>723115339
Begone Warhammerfag.

>>723115178
To expand on this, the game would essentially be gradually zooming in and out based on what's happening in the story.
You are in command of a country and you have times when you are in your throne room talking with diplomats and other times you are in your farthest city giving speeches to the people.
Certain events may trigger a switch to duke mode such as a declaration of war and the realization that a far settlement is not prepared to feed or arm an army and they lack defenses. "General mode" for sieges or skirmishes would have the same battle system as Duke mode just with isolated armies.
I would really enjoy playing as a small troop of soldiers with a critical mission, or as a spy or a diplomat depending on what was needed.
Essentially this would be 4 or 5 different games, not sure if most people would enjoy the mechanical wiplash of genre hopping like that but I'm sure it could be done

>>723115178
>I had a thought about the chain-of-minds aspect to warfare

Same. Like you can directly control your general's bodyguard, but the rest of the army is managed by your ai captains and lieutenants. For example, you can select 3 or 4 infantry units, draw a line, and order them to hold their position. Theress a slight delay in the command to simulate messengers, trumpets, drums, and so on. The delay is influenced by factors like the weather, the distance between you and your captains, and your general's skill. Also, if you're the attacker, during the loading screen you could choose the best position for battle from up to 3 randomly generated map options.

>>723115339
Campaign map and it's Pharaoh + 3 Kingdoms. Really emphasize the personal being political of 3k. In terms of agency on the campaign map it should be your faction, your dynasty/clan, and your character matter each on respective levels. These impact your diplomacy, your internal politics, your success or failures of the campaign map. For example:

>I was amazed in 3k when I had an intransigent enemy as caocao who loved me until I disagreed with an alliance proposal, then due to his personality he hated my guts and waged an unending war on me eventually until he died. Whereupon his peacenik successor was desperate to sue for peace even if he was not very weak.
Instantly you make assassination a major strategic choice, you make execution of a captured lord more appealing.
>Loyalty be a complex brew involving a multilayer calculus.
As an example, we play as dynasty more than faction. I am the fatimid dynasty. My dynasty is shia, my ruler is Arab. I have a general who is (A) Armenian (B) Christian (C) from such-and-such-clan.
His loyalty is a mixture of those three variables, with a simple personality trait denoting if the character puts more or less stock in a certain modifier so the irreligious care less of B, estranged from his father might result in less caring of C. Policies (internal and external diplomacy) will impact that loyalty.
In turn characters or non-ruling dynasties are able to switch factions due to dynastic intrigue

>>723115389
I'm being realistic - we can save the exact same units with difference of +10 in one stat and -5 in another for mods. A way to mitigate the lack of variety that happens with reality and certain periods is to play up differences in a reasonable thematic gameplay format. Gallic spearmen vs hoplites should behave in a dramatically different format even if they have the exact same fundamental weapon.

>>723104317 (OP)
You either get it or you don't

>>723113408
AoE3 is good with the unit differences too, at least DE has really expanded how many unique units civs have

>>723104317 (OP)
Mount and blade is better. I only played warband though, and in warband you can group select cavalry, archers, melee and command them in battle to charge, defend, or move to another location. It's much more fun than in Total War games to command an army because you are also controlling your own character in first or 3rd person. There's a lot of potential in the Mount and Blade gameplay.