Thread 723152289

castlevania fags be like "yooo this level design fire"

same igaboomers complaining about hollow knight saying its not as good as "the classics" btw

>>723152289 (OP)
>castlevania fags be like "yooo this level de
Stopped reading there. Not reading your post as long as you're writing like a meme obsessed retard.

>>723152367
does the after image thing have some sort of gameplay component or is it just for lookin cool

>>723152289 (OP)
>>723152367
never played these trash games but holy fuck that red shadow behind him looks so fucking annoying

>>723152289 (OP)
Just look at that verticality

>>723152476
It was designed with that silhouette because initially GBA had poor lighting (no backlight).

>>723152289 (OP)
these are unironically better graphics than hollow knights vector / flash based graphics. There is more character and soul in each and everyone of these pixels.

>>723152289 (OP)
Not even Castlevania fans like Harmony of Dissonance you retard

>>723152627
>one of
Don't sugarcoat it, HoD is the worst of the lot by quite a wide margin.

>>723152289 (OP)
>>723152367
>>723152484
And there's a reason why Harmony of Dissonance is universally considered the absolute worst entry.
>>723152627
Nothing wrong with handheld igavanias. Aria and Portrait are better games than Symphony in many respects. In fact nearly all of them are varying degrees of good, it's just Harmony that's truly shit.

>>723152758
Nah, that's CotM.

>>723152947
Filtered.

Harmony of Dissonance level design is ass, and the only reason it's tolerable is because the movement is fast. Compared to Circle of the Moon, which has better level design, but the movement is ass because of the double-tap run.

>>723153013
By what? I've beaten all of them.

>>723152289 (OP)
>>723152367
Nigga wtf...

>>723152683
>>723152808
I like it more than circle of the moon and both of the PS2 entries. So speak for yourself, fags.

Perhaps you don't need 100% constant stimulation?

>>723152947
Not even close. HoD has unforgivably terrible level design and trivial bosses, to say nothing of the eyesore visuals and the awful sound quality of the audio. There is nothing in CotM that even comes close to being as bad as HoD.

>>723153013
>constantly double tapping to run.
>have to spend an hour grinding for every card in the game because rng drops.
>extremely over powered cards like summon take away all challenge.
>almost so dark it was impossible to see on the original gba screen
>no interesting background elements and level design is just a big empty room with floating platforms copied and pasted ad naseum.
HoD has some problems, but at least it's not unbearable like CotM.

>>723153591
>constantly double tapping to run.
Bitch tier complaint
>have to spend an hour grinding for every card in the game because rng drops.
You don't need any of them
>extremely over powered cards like summon take away all challenge.
And HoD is more trivial without any of the special abilities so that argument goes nowhere. Also every igavania has OP weapons and abilities, CotM is fairly restrained by comparison.
>almost so dark it was impossible to see on the original gba screen
And it's visually far superior to HoD's eyesore color palette as a result.
>no interesting background elements and level design is just a big empty room with floating platforms copied and pasted ad naseum.
Nigger do not try to argue level design when arguing in favor of HoD, you and I both know the webms in the thread don't even begin to scrap the tip of the shit iceburg that is HoD's level design problems. CotM may have slightly uninspired levels in some areas but it's an architectural masterpiece compared to fucking HoD.

>>723153467
CotM arguably looks worse than HoD. Upgrades enemies in starting areas to more difficult versions as the game goes on. There are like three powerups that are just "you can shove boxes of a different color".
Anyway, I remember dropping Circle the first time I tried to play it, came back to it many years later, completed it still and wasn't impressed. "Awake" - is the best thing about this game.

less is more unless your brain has been fried
you can't get stimulated by anything except fast edits in movies and a busy screen in hollow kike

>>723153591
>>constantly double tapping to run.
L->R works, R->L works. Step your game up, old hands.
>>have to spend an hour grinding for every card in the game because rng drops.
No you don't. Find a combo that works for you and beat the game, ludite.
>>extremely over powered cards like summon take away all challenge.
YOU JUST COMPLAINED ABOUT FARMING THEM YOU INBRED COCKSUCKER. SHUT THE FUCK UP.
>>almost so dark it was impossible to see on the original gba screen
This is a complaint about the original GBA. The backlit SP was amazing and you are complaining about deprecated technology.
>>no interesting background elements and level design is just a big empty room with floating platforms copied and pasted ad naseum.
Welcome to fucking Castlevania, boomboom.
>HoD has some problems, but at least it's not unbearable like CotM.
HoD was nothing but problems and pixel vomit. Your thumbs are weak and your genes will not be missed.

>>723152289 (OP)
If you want to play linear games without exploration or backtracking, simply don't play metroidvanias. I don't see where the bad level design is, plus returning to that area is very easy and eventually fast.

>>723152289 (OP)
Order of Ecclesia is the only good one anyway.

>>723152289 (OP)
Literally no one defends Harmony of Dissonance's level design.

>>723153939
>>723154134
Invalid responses.
>Welcome to fucking Castlevania, boomboom
Besides the n64 and ps2 ones I have beaten all of them, including the MSX Vampire Killer. CotM has nothing going for it level design wise.

>>723152289 (OP)
>>723152367
>recolor
Soulless.

>>723154378
>besides the PS2 ones
You haven't seen truly awful Castlemania level design until you played those.

>>723153986
>CotM arguably looks worse than HoD
No, it doesn't. That's not debateable, sorry.
>Upgrades enemies in starting areas to more difficult versions as the game goes on.
This happens in every igavania to certain degrees and at least the CotM ones offer some challenge.
>There are like three powerups that are just "you can shove boxes of a different color".
This is a legitimate grievance, however HoD also falls back on things like keys as progression blockers. Frankly I can't think of any ability that HoD has over CotM, at least CotM has walljump.
>Anyway, I remember dropping Circle the first time I tried to play it, came back to it many years later, completed it still and wasn't impressed. "Awake" - is the best thing about this game.
Okay? I took years to finish HoD despite it being the easiest of the lot because it's just that awful. Subjective shit doesn't really go anyway. You say Awake is the best thing about the game, but at least CotM has a soundtrack where any given track can make your ears bleed.

>>723154569
i frikkin kneel

>>723152808
Neither Aria nor PoR are better than Symphony in any aspect. SOTN has better music, more enemies, more weapons, more armor, more accessories, more drops, weapons can be combined, there are more interesting spells, the story is more interesting, and the map is better structured. In PoR you just need Charlotte's ice spell and the Vampire Killer and the game is over. In Aria, just use the Valkyrie Soul or the Red Minotaur Soul and the game is over. At least in SOTN there is an inverted castle and swords you can combine.

>>723154378
>Invalid responses.
>CotM has nothing going for it level design wise.
>Fails to justify how HoD has superior level design in any way, shape or form, despite the webms in this thread and the layered castle itself being damning enough evidence alone
Concession accepted. Good day, sir.

>>723154324
I defend the level design of HoD. The game is based on the idea that there is a real castle and its spiritual version. Only people with low IQ get confused.

>>723154956
>No, you don't understand, it's bland and repetitive on purpose
Confusion was never the problem and you know it.

>>723153225
i've caught aids strains that were better than the PS2 games, it's not a big compliment

>>723152289 (OP)
>>723152367
The GBA games always give me a strange memory. I remember both beating and selling to gamestop multiple GBA castlevania games, what i dont remember is ever buying them. I have memories of playing games, but i dont have memories of ever buying them, its weird.

>>723154702
Those two webms are noteworthy enough to kick start a whole thread with many responses. CotM's rooms are either perfectly square or gigantic with a bunch of floating platforms. There is nothing noteworthy or memorable about a single room.
HoD:
Swinging platforms over buzz saws.
Giant meat grinder that destroys knight room.
Metal ball race gauntlet.
Ghost/storm hallway in the sky area.
Collecting furniture for your room.
Being chased by the giant armor at the entrance.
The areas are generally memorable with unique themes:
Lava castle, crystal caves, indoor grave yard, skeleton pit, seizure room, dragon sewers, and sky church.
CotM has the sewers.

>>723154538
>That's not debateable, sorry.
I don't give a fuck about your shitty tastes, but bright color palette aside HoD sprites and animation are still bettr than CotM's (though both games don't look good).
>This happens in every igavania to certain degrees and at least the CotM ones offer some challenge
No it doesn't. If by "certain degree" you mean the inverted castle and such, than it's not the same. This shit only happens in Circle of the moon and does so multiple times. I don't want this kind of challenge in Igavanias anyway, that's what hard mode is for. Ecclesia can get away with this because it's made of mostly linear separate levels.
>at least CotM has a soundtrack where any given track can make your ears bleed
Your obvious mistyping aside: the compositons themselves are fine, but the "instrumentation" is terrible, I don't think anyone wants to argue about this.

>>723152947
lol no

>>723155053
I don't see anything repetitive in HoD. In both castles, there are different enemies, different bosses, with different drops, with shops that sell different items, more than 30 spells can be performed, there are different whips, and there are different challenges in the clock towers.

>>723152289 (OP)
I like HoD but it's memed as one of the worst ones for a reason.

>>723155382
>Look at all these novelty gimmicks that justify an entire game's worth of the most slapdash level design in the entire series and among the worst in the entire genre as well as the shitstain that is the layered castle.
Nah m8, not good enough. And yes, they're noteworthy enough to demonstrate how shit the game is, that isn't a good thing.
>The areas are generally memorable with unique themes:
So memorable that I literally couldn't remember any of them until you listed them, so congrats?
>CotM has the sewers.
CotM has levels and bosses that require more than zero effort to clear and the themes are fine for what they are. No amount of visual distinction in HoD holds up to scrutiny when the visuals themselves are horrendous to begin with.

Portraits of Ruin will forever be the best DS Castlevania and you DS losers will Order of Occlesia boner will never convince me otherwise

>>723154534
It baffles me that those garbage piles have defenders.

>>723155494
I'm not going to argue with you about the game's visuals, sorry.
>I don't want this kind of challenge in Igavanias anyway
Why do you think anyone would care about your opinion with a statement like this?
>Your obvious mistyping aside: the compositons themselves are fine, but the "instrumentation" is terrible, I don't think anyone wants to argue about this.
At the end of the day HoD's soundtrack sounds terrible no matter how you slice it.

>>723155992
I like how you spend that much time typing nothing out defending CotM's level design. All the responses are just: 'nu-uh. ' Nice concession.

>>723155862
The layered castle is nothing but bland repetition. The inverted castle in SotN kind of gets away with it because you blast through it at the end of the game in one sitting and at least being upsidedown gives it some distinction in design, the layered castle fails on every front.

What is level design? Does it mean you have to fill the screen with enemies? Is it a big hallway with nice background? I honestly don't get it.

>>723152289 (OP)
>posts one of if not the worst game in the entire franchise
さすが

CoTM fans not beating the allegations.

>>723152947
there actually are retards that are as retarded as this nigger, out in the world

>>723156260
CotM is functional to explore and inoffensive and offers solid challenge. Even the corridor levels make the most of it with enemy placement. HoD doesn't have any thought put into its levels or enemy placement at all and even with its superior movement options is somehow far more tedious to explore. Please note that I'm not saying that CotM is the best of the bunch by any means, but good lord it isn't as terrible as HoD. Feel free to come up with a counterargument that doesn't hinge on level gimmicks, by the way.

>>723153031
i love how zoomers get filtered by double tap running, really says a lot about them

>>723156525
>fails to address any criticm and resorts to ad hominem
Argument over, HoD is superior.

>>723156458
>The unironic HoDfan when out of arguments

>>723152289 (OP)
There is a better hack than this. This one makes shit look too dark and ugly.

>>723156612
Give me a good reason running shouldn't just be the default movement in the game

The more recent castlevanias have been using the exact same tactics that I've been complaining about, there's a lot of running around, you level up your strength, you have to get items in order to advance forwards but these games get unreal praise, why is that? It would be because they use design choices that complement all of the shitty boringness, leveling up feels good because all those sparkly sounds and colors it feels good to hit enemies, the hit sparks and sound effects are all really exciting, moving around is fast and jumping on stuff is fun, you get a lot of power-ups the change how the game is played a little bit at a time, you get a lot of small rewards frequently, it's just very fast-paced it feels very conducive to mindlessly running around.

But are you getting anything out of it any more than you are when playing Simon's quest with like a walkthrough? Do you feel like you're legitimately beating a hard boss or enemy by grinding for a while and getting the best sword and then whaling on him until he falls? Are you getting any sense of genuine satisfaction from having to run back and forth through places you've already been in order to get something that allows you to advance forward more easily?

I mean it's kind of like comparing a snack food to high-class dessert, you can just chomp away mindlessly it snacks because that's how they're made they're addictive by nature they just make you reach for more even if you don't really want more what a high-class dessert takes them slowing down it demands that you take a moment to really enjoy how complex and satisfying it is. In the end you'll always think more highly of the high-class dessert because it gave you a feeling of true satisfaction, it's not designed to go on forever it was designed to finish off a meal, maybe it was so good you wanted more but what you had was delicious and you're glad you had it, or you can just be a fucking pig and eat it all

lmao you have no idea how mentally dominated you are

>>723156560
To be completely fair, I like both games are neither or even close to my top 10 Castlevania games, I just think CotM's problems outweigh HoD's. I will happily agree the bosses are better in CotM, but strictly on a level design argument, I think HoD does a better job despite some rooms like in Op's pic feeling empty.

hollow knight pads the shit out of its design just to extend playtime too
both are bad choices

>>723152289 (OP)
You're right to complain about it, it's one of the weaknesses of having everything connected in one giant map. First off, you have to make the areas connect somehow, so you'll notice several major arteries that are basically glorified hallways or long vertical shafts with little to no challenge from neither enemies nor level design (lack of environmental hazards and fun platforming gimmicks). Second of all, I'd say even less experienced players can get a feel for how the map is going to shape out when they know everything's connected.

Compare that to, say, disconnected maps, each of which can be their own map and who knows where it ends up, or may even have the freedom to allow for multiple exits and secret rooms can be more easily hidden that can be sussed out from looking at suspicious gaps on a connected map. Also, less backtracking, which would address a major complaint among players.

>>723156850
I like both games and neither are*
I need some coffee.

>>723156635
Aria is better than both lol

I forgot how bad Harmony of Dissonance was.
But nobody thinks Igavania levels are good. Those aren't even the worst, it's when they just devolve into endless flat hallways with one dude every 14 feet.

>>723156962
Yeah, it's almost like they listened to feedback and learned from their mistakes.

>>723156850
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, CotM merely has some uninspired levels but they demand enough effective navigation to remain interesting, whereas I don't think HoD's level design issues are excusable.

>>723156793
if you actually played the game, then you would know why

>>723156962
No one said otherwise.

>>723156962
Hey guys did you know SOTN is better than Portrait of Ruin.
Yeah no shit, you silly goobus.

>>723154693
Mindbroken. PoR mogs SotN in terms of optional items and abilties and just optional content in general. AoS's soul system encapsulates every good idea from SotN but does it right. SotN is the choice of non-gamer journalists who have no point of reference for judging games so they default to judging graphics and sound. This is the average SotNtard.

>>723157403
>SOTN is better than Portrait of Ruin
wrong
>no shit
confidently wrong
debatable

>>723157505
>PoR mogs SotN in terms of optional items and abilties and just optional content in general
The only optional ability I remember is the griffin wing and the only area I could even think of as technically optional is maybe taking just one of the two paths to the Legion-reuse boss in the circus level. Otherwise it's all pretty mandatory for the true ending outside of the odd crappy piece of level pickup gear or enemy drops which every game has.

I played it pretty recently, if you're going to defend PoR it's on the basis of Charlotte being the only Castlevania summon that doesn't absolutely fucking suck. Dracula being a duo boss was also kinda fun, classic dick Dracula move.

I'm glad people are wising up to "metroidvania" design flaws, it was bound to happen sooner or later. I think the sub-genre still has a lot of potential but its reputation for padding and being derivative of other titles is dragging that down, even after Silksong's release. Here's the prescription.

1) "Metroidvania" is a dumb fucking term, no genre, or even a sub-genre, should be that beholden to two game series that people may not even like and turn away from similar games as a consequence. They should be called "adventure games", plain and simple.

2) Whether the overall game map is connected (overworld) or disconnected (hub with separate areas), NO roadblocks anywhere, ever. It solves the problem of a player going deep into an area only to find they needed some item or ability first and wasting their time. That doesn't mean the game's difficulty needs to be even throughout, some areas can still be much harder than others. If the player is having too much trouble, this gives them the freedom to go to other areas first. It gives stubborn players and speedrunners the opportunity to keep trying. By roadblocks, I refer to any area or room made inaccessible by the narrative, items, or abilities which may have little to no utility.

3) Finding, not grinding. Grinding for stat boosts, money for buying upgrades, or earning points for skill trees is padding, that's all there is to it. Let the player instead take on fun challenges and sequences with one small room at the end that contains a collectible item that provides a permanent stat boost instead to the player's power, defense, speed, health, or allows them to use a new ability to access new areas through faster alternative routes, which is not a roadblock.

PoR > OoE > DoS
Aria > HoD > CoTM

>>723157808
I disagree with the second one, traversal based progression is the one staple of the genre that's consistently fun and I don't consider roundabout level routing to be a flaw at all. Especially when it's narratively implemented, you know returning to the starting area and unlocking a door to find out it was all a secret evil experiment or something.

>>723156190
>Why do you think anyone would care about your opinion with a statement like this?
Because anyone with a modicum of taste and game sense understands that turning Igavania into an action dungeon crawler, where a shitty randomly spawned bat can (and will) two touch you, is a good idea. That's what the optional hard modes are for.

>>723158094
*is NOT a good idea

>>723157808
>"Metroidvania" is a dumb fucking term, no genre, or even a sub-genre, should be that beholden to two game series that people may not even like and turn away from similar games as a consequence. They should be called "adventure games", plain and simple

The video game genre "Adventure" is named after an Atari 2600 game titled Adventure, you fucking ignoramus

>>723158250
That's so fucking pedantic. The word adventure existed thousands of years before that game came about. Adventure games is a nice fit for a genre that otherwise has ungainly words attached to it like "souls-like", "search action" (more used by Japan), etc.

>>723158531
Since you were ignorant of the origin, I bet you're ignorant of the actual connotation of the genre too.

Adventure games are not called that because they are "games where you go on a journey" as the standard definition of the word adventure may imply, they are games that use a specific framework for problem solving involving collecting and utilizing items.
This is the common thread between Text, Point and Click, and Action Adventure games.

>>723155382
That sky area has sega 32x tier music that you'll hear for half the game because you'll get stuck in that shit zone for 5 years due to the lack of coherent progression.

>>723158773
You're assuming I don't know what Atari is, man. I've been using this site for twenty years, of course I know about Adventure on the 2600. I'm sure a lot of people do because even the terrible Ready Player One movie featured it. Point-and-click adventure games are distinguished by "point and click", so there's that issue solved.

>>723152367
>>723152289 (OP)
fucking TAA...

>>723157128
i did, and do, aria is at least better than hod, but that's a deeply sunk into the ground bar to easily roll over, cotm blows it out of the water and it isn't even close

>>723159138
Yes, and Platformer Action Adventures are distinguished by "Metroidvania"

>>723157808
>Metroidvania" is a dumb fucking term
that's because it was used to make fun of sotn for being a metroid-like, even though simon's quest had already done the same thing (badly copying metroid's homework) some 10 years prior
the real term is metroid-likes, and anyone who is a non-nigger will use that instead of the mouthbreathing gluedrinking windowlicking leaded paint chip-eating retarded nigger term "metroidv*nia"

>>723152289 (OP)
does look a bit repetitive. perhaps some furniture...

>>723155157
You probably borrowed(stole) from your friends you nigger. Return my copy of battle network 3 at once.

>>723154693
Largely agree with this and especially with regard to Aria in particular, most common criticisms of SOTN apply to Aria more than it
Portrait may have a case for best unlockable side modes overall, but even then I was still quite disappointed when I first tried its Richter mode after having read a few times how much (supposedly) better it was than SOTN's

>>723159241
You CotM fags shoud've been kept in check and bullied relentlessly like all of those "dark souls 2 good" and "doom 3 is the best in the series" freaks.

>>723158094
>>723158157
CotM being more challenging than average is not the same as being unfair, I don't respect your opinion if you think it's too hard, you just suck, sorry.

>>723159434
Kek.

>>723160180
The only thing that was too difficult in it is the optional endgame gauntlet and I don't think I've beaten it. But I still prefer my Igavanias to be nice and easy farmfests.

>>723159929
nah, cotm is objectively the best in the entire franchise, its you aria fags who needed to be bullied for your shit and objectively wrong retarded opinions

>>723159434
salt in the wound

>>723156631
>This game is shit.
>No it isn't.
>Yes it is.
>Heh...couldn't even address any criticism...gottem.
A tale as old as time, but it still gets me.