Thread 723463134

>written in 1999
>accurately predicted the concept of digital misinformation, echo chambers, fake news, digital censorship, and segregated communities each with their own perceptions of what is true
How the FUCK did they do it?

>>723463134 (OP)
Because all of that was happening since the 70s.
Industrial Society & Its Future talks about the same things, and that was written between 1978 and 1995.
It's quite good that a video game includes this kind of content, though. Good way to expose a bunch of young white and asian dudes to important theory.
It's the only actually good MGS narrative, between 1's shallow action movie shit, 3 and 4's retarded melodrama with bland anti-war messaging, and 5's meek anti-hegemony posturing.

>>723463134 (OP)
he watched movies that did all that already and repackaged their message

>>723463352
What movies did have that message?

Hmm it's almost like it was based off shit that's been happening for decades. Fuckin zoomers are so retarded it's unreal.

>>723463134 (OP)
most of that was already in 1984
maybe read books, kojima is not that good of a writer

>>723463558
I must’ve missed the part of 1984 where it used metanarrative to explain how ideas can be passed on, and why the flow of information from the internet from everyday people disrupts that

it's just this dude's philosophy repackaged

>>723463387

If you are talking about misinformation and manipulation if the truth.
NTA but I rememeber this one, it came in 1998 and Im sure there are far better examples.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZjogdKObxrI

>>723464178
>originally published in 1999
Oh, so the same type mgs2 was written? Yea bro really widely known and publicised

>>723464161
>most
you illeterate fucker

>>723464280
You should probably look at the author's other books, anon.

woahohoho I really don't know anybody else who did this, Kojima should win an Oscar!!1!!!!

>>723463387
Ghost in the shell

>>723464394
Successfully in a video-game format that is also fun and innovative in other ways? No I haven't.

>>723463134 (OP)
but still no metal gear...

>>723464281
My point is that MGS2 and 1984 both tackle different subject matters. Sure, they both have similarities when it comes to information control and manipulation of what is considered Truth, but MGS2 is far more focused on how society itself is becoming more segregated and split on Truth, whereas 1984 is focused on how the government can do that.
Sure, MGS2 has the Patriots, but they’re moreso for the audience to reflect on what a government power would attempt to do to control information. The real theming of MGS2 is less about that control, and more on asking the audience to reflect on how these sorts of echo chambers will be able to handle truths WITHOUT an all powerful censoring government.
I’m sure it no doubt took inspiration from 1984 (every piece of postmodern fiction does), but to say it’s almost entirely the same things covered is disingenuous

This thread is pure samefaggotry and Kojima Derangement Syndrome, sad!

>>723464532
MGS is fun but it doesn't have the story that Kojima thinks it's does. Sorry he pales in comparisons to actual directors, fag. Have fun defending whatever garbage the Death Stranding story is.

>>723464532
NTA, but Deus Ex also did that, funnily enough at roughly the same time
Of course it was a vastly different in its messaging to MGS2, but it managed to be quite prophetic with what it was discussing while incorporating it into a video game format. Both have different strengths and weaknesses, and imo MGS2 has aged slightly better, but they’re both great games that tackle politics without it being forced down your throat like modern games
Ross Scott explains it better than I can
https://youtu.be/rxOKEsBx4NU?si=zXmU3hd81TCGpUv1

>>723464365
Expecting a faggot like >>723464280 to a read a book is borderline retarded. If it isn't a Bing-bing wahooin' or a tranime, nothing can be extrapolated. I edit books as a side hustle, and so many many amateur jobs are submitted by faggots that just read manga and watch anime but have never read a book in their lives that took up writing only because they can't draw for shit

>>723464613
>everything I don't like is shills

back to foxnews boomer

>>723464726
>to a read a book

>>723464365
>it was widely known, look at this book
>but that was written at the exact same time
>n-no not THAT book

>>723464532
100% dudesex. I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. It even plays like shit like MGS2

>>723464830
>it even plays like shit like MGS2
MGS2 plays perfectly fine, and the HD version smooths it out even more
Deus Ex is a bit choppy, but GMDX makes it considerably more accessible with plenty of QOL fixes

>>723464820
>a book releaed in 1999 is actually written at the exact same time as something that released in 2001.
Again, she had other books before, and there were another authors too. Chomsky write about this and Baudrillard.

>>723464723
>>723464830
Isn't Deus Ex just a collection of popular government conspiracies from the time? It doesn't tackle the subject in a philosophical way.

The virus infected Colonel AI start repeating codec conversation the real Roy Campbell said in MG2 and MGS1, like it's vomiting the information it was fed to build its personality.
Bravo Kojima.

>>723465032
One of the major themes of the game is control, subdual of media, and so-on. They're not the exact same, but they tackle a bunch of the same subject matter.

>>723463134 (OP)
>>accurately predicted the concept of digital misinformation
I invented concept of "lying"

>>723463558
>>723464178
>>723464726
I swear to god this whole idea that books are actually for Le sophisticated gentlesirs while any other form of media is for the plebeians is the most Reddit shit in the world. I can picture the fedora tipping. They’re just one form of portraying ideas that has its strengths and weakness, just like film, television, artwork, poetry, music, and video games can all do, each with their own sets of strengths and weakness. I don’t know what it is about diehard book fans that make them believe they’re above others

>>723465251
If you read a book, you'd know brevity is the soul of wit. I didn't read your post.

>>723465032
It uses that as its backdrop, for sure. But it does a lot more than just have it there in the background. It tackles concepts within the game a lot more in depth. I dont want to spoil it if you haven’t played it before, but would highly encourage you to play it if it sounds remotely interesting to you

>>723465341
>dude my 800 page book is the superior format
>I won’t read one paragraph
Wew lad

>>723463134 (OP)
Kojima just takes his ideas from books and movies that he watches and read and then he presents the ideas as his own. Gamers think he's a genius.

>>723465579
Everyone takes ideas from previous works. George Orwell didn’t just magically come up with his ideas out of thin air

>>723465251
Being blown away by a videogame's story and underlying philosophy is the most pleb shit possible. Simple as. It is a sign of someone who is uncultured, lacks the attention span to extract the ideas in their purest form, and needs a literal electric toy or a anime funnybook attached to these ideas to access an extremely truncated and hamfisted version of something that already exists elegantly in a book. It's actually infuriating how things have to be attached to a literal toy for some twenty-something retard to tell you about some mostly uninteresting idea.

>>723465673
I like how this describes twitter 100%.

>>723465750
>he needs words written on paper in a soi-like binding like an idiot rather than just talking to someone
Get a load of this plebeian

>>723465506
Never read what is bad. #1 rule of schopenlad

>>723465905
That's what a book is, retard bro. It's an examination of the ideas of the writer basically as a perfected lecture or story.

>>723465251
I think the written word has the highest density of meaningful content than any other form, like getting an exposition dump in audio format is already a lesser form than reading the thing yourself.
The ideal movie or game would be able to lead you to a conclusion about a subject in a more organic and engaging way than the dry process of reading a philosophy book, MGS2 does this to some extent, but it's at the expense of a lot of context and information that could be included in a book format.

>>723465251
books are about the writing by default, it doesn't have anything else to lift it up if it's badly written
movies, games, music or whatever other art form isn't focused solely on the writing and some are more "complete" art forms (as it requires to be artistically interesting not only in writing, but visuals, score etc..)
I love games more than any other art form, I think there's plenty of them that are well written, but they could never reach the writing quality of classic books because it has to work with other parts of the game, for example gameplay which creates limitations for the writer
unless you only "play" VNs, but that's basically a book since there is no interactivity with it except for reading it, which goes against videogaming philosophy

we're all sitting on the shoulders of giants, if you create something you will draw from what inspire you too.

>>723466020
But you lose the context of the tone of the voice, the cadence in which they speak, and body language. That’s a disadvantage of books. Whereas their advantage over spoken conversations is in being able to recall the words by reading back. See how those two forms of communicating ideas each have pros and cons?

>>723466231
>tone of the voice, the cadence in which they speak, and body language
This shouldn't have any significance in intellectual discourse.

723466163
Sure, I pretty much agree with what you’ve said. Although I do think there’s more to conveying ideas that purely the writing. And my point wasn’t to say that books are bad, it’s to say that isn’t the single greatest form of communicating ideas that some people make them out to be.
I think if someone has an idea, or message or whatever that they want to communicate with the world, they should see different mediums like a toolbox, and pick the right tool for the job. What would be the most suitable as a way of communicating that idea? Perhaps it’s a film, or maybe a book. Maybe a musical album best conveys it, or maybe it requires the direct line of interactivity a video game does to best convey its ideas. Hell maybe a forum post is the best way.
But people who think books are the one size fits all approach bother me. It’s as cringy as saying you need a video game to express an idea or else it’s meaningless

>>723466507
Why not? They can convey ideas without saying a single word, and do so in ways the written word can’t possibly convey accurately

>>723466729
Meant to reply to >>723466163

>>723466231
That doesn't matter. You're still tapping the source and on writing, the idea is better articulated, can go into more depth, and can be expressed in a way that simply isn't possible by speech. This is why readers prefer books to audiobooks, even if they're read by the author.

>>723466854
>That doesn't matter
It can, depending on the type of information being conveyed. If a ww2 veteran wants to convey the horrors of war, you will understand his pain through the pain his eyes, the trembling in his voice, the subdued body language. Books can’t replicate that

>>723467220
books can and definitely do, the mind can be more vivid than any movie

>>723465673
pure midwittery

>>723467303
>movie
I’m not talking about fiction, I’m talking about a real ww2 veteran speaking

>>723467220
?
This is your brain on videogames.
>If a ww2 veteran wants to convey the horrors of war, you will understand his pain through the pain his eyes, the trembling in his voice, the subdued body language. Books can’t replicate that
They can. You can write, "The pain in his eyes, the trembling in his voice, and his subdued body language." In fact, when I read it as you wrote it, I conjured up a picture in my mind of said elderly veteran. That's how books work. The narration adds these details to the speech that you reconstruct in your mind. Can you not imagine these details when you read them? Is your imagination so shot from your burnt dopmamine receptors that you cannot reconstruct things from the written word? I know it's not perfectly accurate in your imagination, but the feeling is reproduced. Does it matter if I picture the characters in the Odyssey incorrectly if I understand their struggles and emotions?

>>723463134 (OP)
Metal gear is divinely inspired.
MGS1: You step into the hidden world.
VR Missions: You spar with the labyrinth.
MGS2: You fall into the chaos.
MGS3: You face the ghost of origin.
MGS4: You awaken to the system’s truth.
MGS5: You integrate shadow and self.

>>723467220
>anon can't see the apple

>>723467363
Oh, so we can go to the midwits to describe the future to a tee, then?

>>723467220
For you, bro.

>>723467703
2 is all you need
you don't need to see the exact apple, you only need to grasp it's essence

>>723467467
>I need some other guy to put his thoughts in my head because I can't conceptualize anything
Sad
Lay off the media consumption for a while

>>723467703
A 5 reads other people's works
A 1 makes them

>>723467993
Bro, I'm beyond 1. I picture the apple in 4kHD, and can imagine the waxy feel in my fingers, the skin separating from the flesh when I bite into it, the sound, the taste, etc.

>>723468313
Sorry bro that's a trait of autism

>>723468261
This is a pretty bizarre way to concede the conversation

>>723468372
I don't know my superiority has angered you.

>>723468309
>Says a guy that doesn't read or make works
kek
also, all good writers are ravenous readers lol

>>723468373
Don't get mad at me because of whatever happened to you [anon says in a mournful tone, before shaking his head]

>>723468309
Arguably the 1 on this topic is arguably Shinkawa, Metal Gear was not much before he joined but every piece was there to receive his input, a great director and the technology.

>>723468752
I accept your concession

>>723468752
What is a mournful tone sound like, bro?

>>723468472
t. mad ass 5

>>723463387
3 Days of the Condor.

>>723468993
You don't need to sign your posts on 4chan

>>723468313
>can imagine the waxy feel in my fingers, the skin separating from the flesh when I bite into it, the sound, the taste, etc.
those are part of the essence of the apple, everyone that has ever eaten an apple in their life can imagine those
you don't need to literally see every single spot of the apple in 4K is what I'm saying

>>723468828
I accept your conversation

>>723469039
I didn't say you need to

>>723467467
You completely missed my point
The EXTENT to which you can understand how a person is feeling can’t be fully replicated with merely words. I can describe in words that someone looks horrified, I can’t fully give you the experience of horror in someone’s eyes, you must see that in person to fully experience it

Glad to see that people are realizing that MGS2 is massively overrated by wannabe intellectuals. The ending is just a wikipedia school essay

those things existed before mgs2

>>723463345
You dumb fuck, MGS2 wasn't influence by your schizo book. It was influence by stiff like Simulation and Simulacra.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulacra_and_Simulation

I think Metal Gear Solid 4 sucks!

>>723469004
That movie is so good, thanks for reminding me it exists, but I don't know if it really reaches the same notes something like MGS2 does and this is not a slight on the movie itself, but it's a product from a Era that had more structure, the US vs SU competition was more understandable than the modern post-truth World.

>>723465107
i saw a teenage girl wearing a shirt like this at walmart. i wanted to tell her dad what those faces were, but i was scared he might attack me.

>>723463345
kill yourself misanthropic zogbot

Kojima denies being influenced by Pynchon but it's pretty obvious that he cribs from Gravity's Rainbow, a book in which the military industrial complex operates like an AI and controls information, opinion, and even individual identity.

>>723463134 (OP)
It was probably written in 2000 after the founding of 2ch.

>>723469410
Did you know works that point and have very similar arguments constantly happen without any mutual "influence"?
People keep parroting this Baudrillard book around because of The Matrix but it wasn't that influential either. I had to read it for university in the 90s though.

>people itt saying there’s nothing noteworthy about mgs2 because similar ideas existed before that
That’s how ALL ideas are made dumbdumbs. Every story you’ve heard was inspired by something else, which was inspired by something before that and so on. It’d be like saying an artists work was just a hack job because Grug drew a cave painting of him hunting a mammoth long before he did

>>723469673
possible but also Kojima has referenced weird french literature before

>>723469750
If nothing else it's noteworthy for presenting philosophical ideas through a medium in a time when it was more or less still colloquially considered mindless entertainment for kids.

>>723469673
Baudrillard's influence has nothing to do with the movie The Matrix, you are a massive faggot.

>DUDE, IT'S LIKE, NOTHING IS REAL! IT'S JUST LIKE CHATGPT GENERATED VIDEOS ON TWITTER! MAN, KOJIMA IS A FRICKING GENIUS! IT'S LIKE, PYNCHONIAN BAUDRILLARD-ESQUE SPECTACLE LUDO!
we must start killing these kind of people fr fr

>>723469961
MGS2 isn’t The Matrix. Good job exposing the fact you’ve never played, or that you completely misinterpreted it

>>723469961
the people you made up in your brain? don't harm yourself anon

>>723463134 (OP)
Kojima literally invented the camera. Have some respect and just trust me. People don't understand his true genius yet. It's one of those things. He will get his true recognition as his art matures.

>>723463134 (OP)
The things you listed were the contextual salad dressing in which the real statement was explicitly (EXPLICTLY) told to you,
a statement which you and everyone else in this thread failed to remember.

>>723463387
Strange Days
Dark City
Enemy of the State
The Parallax View

>>723470339
>digital misinformation, echo chambers, fake news, digital censorship, and segregated communities
none of this applies to any of these movies

Kojima practices an ancient and arcane form of divination those of us in the know sometimes call "Reading books and science magazines".

>>723463134 (OP)
All these were expected since early 20th century. You just never thought about it.

>>723469303
I said that, but books don't need to perfectly replicate things. You're missing the point.

>>723470476
Yea back in 1905 people were constantly talking about how the internet would cause more division

>>723470512
grok can you summarize that for me

>>723470621
kek

>>723470414
Can you name some of the books and science magazines

>Although personally, I think cyberspace means the end of our species."

>Yes? Why is that?"

>Because it means the end of innovation," Malcolm said. "This idea that the whole world is wired together is mass death. Every biologist knows that small groups in isolation evolve fastest. Now, for our own species, evolution occurs mostly through our behaviour. We innovate new behaviour to adapt. And everybody on earth knows that innovation only occurs in small groups. Put three people on a committee and they may get something done. Ten people, and it gets harder. Thirty people, and nothing happens. Thirty million, it becomes impossible. That's the effect of mass media - it keeps anything from happening. Mass media swamps diversity. It makes every place the same. Bangkok or Tokyo or London: there's a McDonald's on one corner, a Benetton on another, a Gap across the street. Regional differences vanish. All differences vanish. In a mass-media world, there's less of everything except the top ten books, records, movies, ideas. People worry about losing species diversity in the rain forest. But what about intellectual diversity - our most necessary resource? That's disappearing faster than trees. But we haven't figured that out, so now we're planning to put five billion people together in cyberspace. And it'll freeze the entire species. Everything will stop dead in its tracks. Everyone will think the same thing at the same time. Global uniformity.

-The Lost World, 1995

So crazy they predicted yesterday what kind of weather it'll be today, how the fuck did they do that?

>>723470620
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/dec/29/scientist-archibald-low-ruthlessly-imaginative-1925-predictions-for-the-future-come-true
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/En_L'An_2000
Lovecraft too.
Futurists were optimistic back then.
Less optimistic people got to work, instead.

>>723470893
what he's saying is kind of the exact opposite though

>>723467703
It baffles me that more than 50% of people on twitter are on 5

>>723463134 (OP)
Watch Lain now. And then Take a goooood look at Palantir. Deus ex shit.

>>723469140
yeah I know I said it, you're the one who replied to me saying you're above that
I'm the telling you you don't need it and none of what you described is specific to case 1 on the picture, you're not special lil bro

>>723465107
>95% camo index

>>723463134 (OP)
This man is the reason the writing is so good. After he left it became campy bullshit for the rest of the series.

>>723471623
If you replace electricity by AI that's kinda good prediction, barely one year off

>>723465251
Spoken like a true idiot. One day your brain will fully develop.

>>723472292
What has him been doing since?

>working with smooth jazz playlist in background
>keep thinking of Can't Say Goodbye to Yesterday
>MGS2 thread pops up
luv u bois

>>723472418
Except we don't go fishing, we are all miserable.

>>723472515
>Heh, religion is for true idiots. One day you’ll be like me, an atheist, and you will be enlightened be your own intelligence *tips fedora”

>>723472517
I think he died or retired it’s kind of a mystery where he went after mgs2

Cipher is spamming this thread with misinfo, btw.

>>723463134 (OP)
>guy who has only played MGS2
>"getting strong MGS2 vibes from these hundred year old concepts"

>>723473773
>hundred year old concepts
>internet, virtual reality

>>723469410
That anon didn't say it was, you dumb fuck. He was just pointing out that it wasn't the first time such ideas were discussed prior to the current era.

>>723471273
Personally, I just look at the how the internet had evolved over the couple decades. Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, Tumblr, 4chan and so forth are all just screepcaps of one another's posts, gone are the days where unique corners of the internet weren't just for extremely obscure topics.

>>723463134 (OP)
>digital misinformation, echo chambers, fake news, digital censorship, and segregated communities each with their own perceptions of what is true
:/
>digital misinformation, echo chambers, fake news, digital censorship, and segregated communities each with their own perceptions of what is true, Japan
:O

>>723472793
He's credited on MGS3.

>>723467703
what a midwit. Let me guess, you have an inner monologue too?

>>723463134 (OP)
Predicting those weren't especially difficult.
The big deal was deciding to make a game about that anyway.

Also, by this logic Kojima retroactively predicted COVID to the point it's like he released a bioweapon to help promote his game. But he didn't, right? right?

>>723465182
I don't trust you on that.

>>723479196
>9/11 this
>9/11 that
this guy truly is an ego maniac. This is straight up ego rampage, not ego trip.

>>723470512
You can't help agreeing with everything he says, then stop at how the fuck what they do achieve that.

>>723463134 (OP)
fukushima was a genius, kojima didn't write any of that shit.

>>723479443
What the fuck is wrong with you?
Of all the people who have a right to mention 9/11 it's him because MGS2 needed to have content cut because of it.
Regardless of whether now it doesn't seem that much of a deal, it was obviously touchy at the time. If it was released today I could even imagine Trump saying the game have to be banned because it don't portray Murica in a good way

It's not even like he act like a video game messiah, no fan actually worships him, they just KNOW what to expect from him and it's usually good.
Even trolls probably don't bother, it's more a bunch of haters who rage so much they hope that swearing him will get them games they prefer.

>>723465251
>books are actually for Le sophisticated gentlesirs while any other form of media is for the plebeians
actually yes. all the important works of philosophy, history, and research are stored in books, not videogames or movies. fucking duh.

>>723463387
all these anon responding to this are wrong. no movie did, none of them had theme of controlling the internet or the media, because movies are made by jews and jews dont want you to know

>>723480638
>muh Drumpf!!!!

>>723463134 (OP)
because they are followers of the vile tyrant rapist jesus christ and they planned all of it
hideo kojima is a child raping godtanist
i refuse to say satanist
god is the real satan fuck that rat fuck nigger
fuck "satan" too

>>723463134 (OP)
>written in 1999
>accurately predicts concepts that already were in place for decades
I don't think you understand what does the verb "predicting" mean.

>>723484227
where?

>>723463134 (OP)
People who think Kojima is insightful have zero media literary
>>723463387
Every dystopian sci fi film

>>723484405
Planet Earth.

>>723463134 (OP)
Very easily. All they did was imagine the worst possible future.

You guys do know that just because this was inspired doesn't mean it didn't bring anything new to the table, right?

>>723463134 (OP)
kek Kojimbo predicted covid

Like others have said. Political propaganda and warfare has been happening for decades and only the medium has changed but the overall strategy remains the same. It's well documented at this point that the modern political strategy of not just hiding the truth but making you question what is truth itself was pioneered by Russia back in the late 2000s to early 2010s. Vladislav Surkov, Putin's advisor realized that if you couldn't tell what the truth is then the ruling party remained in power as the status quo will keep getting upheld by people wasting time on trivial things until they get exhausted with trying to make any sort of change.
Pic related are some good starting points to understand how we ended up where we are today. Regardless of what political side you are on it's important to understand that this propaganda is an attack on you as a person.
Oldfags that have been around know how insidious Russian internet presence has been over time. Even back in early 4chan days they have been a problem. The reality is that every country has its own digital propaganda machines and they have adopted Vladislav Surkov's learnings.

>>723463345
>endless war for israel is good actually
lol

>>723463134 (OP)
It already existed. Look at North Korea, the most famous example.

>>723463134 (OP)
I wonder.

Do I need to play the first game to understand this franchise?

>>723475546
That's true for mass media cesspool, but outside of that I see global innovation and collaboration, not this great man theory shit.

>>723467220
Neither can movies or video games since its just an actor/voice actor emulating what he thinks such a person would look like.