Thread 723710715

RTwP was killed by BG3 and its never coming back.

Fallout 1 is the only good crpg with turn-based combat.
And combat is by far the worst part of that game.

>>723710715 (OP)
good

>>723710715 (OP)
Good riddance

>>723710715 (OP)
has there ever been a decent rtwp combat system?

>>723710846
That doesn't make RTwP better. The only game to have semi-fun RTwP is DA:O.

>>723710990
Dragon Age: Origins

tranny thread. straight men love their games real time like real women

>>723710715 (OP)
Good. Worst fucking battle system ever. Pathfinder WOTR was only playable because of turn based mode. RTwP was always really just some western meme shit anyway. There is a reason good game devs (AKA non-western) avoid it like the plague.

>>723711039
everyone just automates the shitty MMORPG combat so they can click on containers with fewer distractions

>>723710715 (OP)
wrath of the righteous is still unplayable even with turn based

>>723710990
KOTOR

>>723711105
cope
final fantasy lost

>>723710715 (OP)
>RTwP was killed by BG3 and its never coming back.
And we're all worse off for it.

>>723710715 (OP)
RTWP was killed by lazy CRPG devs who failed to innovate and improve RTWP combat beyond what it was in BG1.

>>723710715 (OP)
Good.

>>723710715 (OP)
>copy pasted encounters everywhere because every fight lasts 10 seconds
>press spacebar every 3 seconds, or wait for the combat to play itself i guess
does anyone actually ever liked rtwp? it was the go to in the early 2000s because we just didn't know better.

>>723710715 (OP)
Thank God, rtwp is a worthless combat system that only exists to justify throwing waves of shitty mobs at you.

Party based combat was always meant for Turn Based.

>>723711289
Name 5 good rtwp implementations.

>>723710715 (OP)
Never liked that shit

It was always complete garbage designed to fool Diablo players into playing CRPGs an extra thirty minutes before dropping them.

>>723710715 (OP)
Good. RTwP was always a frankenstein system. Just make it turn based with proper encounter design.

>>723711378
Both of them are leftists lmao

>>723710715 (OP)
RTwP's main benefit is that when you are fighting wolf encounter #4042 when you're level 16 you can just let the game play itself. Otherwise you're constantly pausing and unpausing to give orders making it pseudo turn based.

Also we gotta admit that it is just too exploitable. Every IE CRPG can be beaten by using a ranged weapon and just hitting and running, solo. You don't even need a party. Maybe a scroll for some summons or something for story encounters.

>>723711105
turn based is comfy as fuck, if i wanted action id play starcraft or a shooter

>>723710715 (OP)
turn based has always been the true CRPG system
https://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=21

>RTwP
>ATB
Which one do you hate the most?

>>723710990
>>723711039
Yeah. DAO including their version of Gambit conditionals helps with how RTWP can tends to become a bit of a clusterfuck if you aren't hypervigilant. That said I kind of enjoy how in the Pathfinder games and PoE2 you can use turn based for tricky fights and then just plow through trash enemies on RTWP.

>>723711386
RTWP was great in the late 90s and early 00s as a transition to move off of hexes and grids. Which was kinda the default assumption of how TB worked prior to that.

>>723711573
RtwP, ATB is just regular turn based combat with a timer for your turns.

So how hard are they going to break the game with this change? Deadfire's turn based was a disaster.

>give every character a command
>both party and enemy actions are executed simultaneously
RPGs should have stuck to this formula with party-based games.

>>723710715 (OP)
BG3-style turn based combat is only good when it's like 5 enemies max. Anything more and it becomes painfully slow and god forbid you summon zombies or skeletons.

>>723711514
>Every IE CRPG can be beaten by using a ranged weapon and just hitting and running, solo.
The more entertaining version of this is a backstabber with boots of speed. Where I appreciate RTWP speeding things up.

>>723711514
>when you are fighting wolf encounter #4042 when you're level 16 you can just let the game play itself.
in regular turn based you're gonna be one shotting those encouonters anyways.
the only thing rtwp is good at is simulating large fights, baldur's gate 3 for example is terrible whenever there's more than a handful of enemies.

>>723710990
Planescape Torment

>>723711514
RtwP is a bandaid for bad gameplay mechanics. Instead of making you fight a gazillion trash wolves, make fewer encounters with wolves that are better designed.

The actual differentiator is party control. If you're only controlling one character, make it real time. If you're controlling multiple characters make it turn based. That's all there is to it.

>>723711702
And PoE1 has enormous amount of trash filler fights that are already slow as fuck in rtwp mode.

>>723711413
Baldur's Gate
Baldur's Gate 2
Icewind Dale
Icewind Dale 2
Planescape Torment
I only had to list the D&D Infinity Engine games to satisfy your criteria
Arcanum too, but the pause in that is just switching to turn based

>>723711780
>The actual differentiator is party control. If you're only controlling one character, make it real time.
underrail has only one character and it's turn based, still my favorite dungeon crawler to date.

>>723711702
Meh. You just need a "fast forward through enemy turns button." WotR has this by default, and there are mods to implement FF in BG3.

>>723710715 (OP)
>demanding replays
Nigga nobody even played that turd once.

>>723711750
Baldur's Gate 3's huge battles are all very well designed, the actual problem is that the game doesn't have a skip animation button so you have to wait for the enemy to think about every turn. If you could step through them the game would be literally perfect, rtwp totally unnecessary

I am a firm RTWP hater but Pillars had one of the least annoying implementations of it.

>>723711854
Ohhhhh yes, because the tavern fight is so fast even with that option

RTwP is basically hybridising the RPG/RTS genres and it's incredibly based

I remember calling rtwp a slop combat system ~5 years ago and a bunch of crpg bros got mad and shat their pants over that comment
Now everyone agrees because bg3 happened and didn't debase itself with that shit
What a joke

>>723711750
>the only thing rtwp is good at is simulating large fights, baldur's gate 3 for example is terrible whenever there's more than a handful of enemies.
I disagree entirely. I hate large clusterfuck RTWP fights. Especially when I'm expected to use friendly fire AOEs while a bunch of assholes are wandering about. I'd much rather go through things efficiently in TB.

>>723710715 (OP)
I liked PoE so I'm glad I can replay it and have a different experience.

>>723710715 (OP)
Good. RTwP always had terrible iterations where they try to have their cake and eat it too by having PnP RPG logic with turns and priority run behind it (Shartfinder is the most egregious example). RTwP should strive to have the best of both world (the snapiness of RT and strategy of Turn Based), the only games that I know had that were Dragon Age (animation cancelling, stuff happens when you do the damn action) and 7.62.

>muh BG3
Sawyer already had a metldown when OS2 came out and sold 10x the amount of Deadfire

>>723711992
everyone's known rtwp sucked balls for a while, they even backported turn based into poe2 and wotr.
larian has just made sure we're never gonna see rtwp again as a primary game mode in crpgs.

>>723711750
>baldur's gate 3 for example is terrible whenever there's more than a handful of enemies.
Yeah. I still remember doing the fight when you first get to Gortesh and can just ignore the act 3 quest to fuck him up there and then, and waiting for the dozens of enemies to take their turns was infuriating. Fun encounter to figure out but jesus it's a slog to actually execute.

Damn, didn't know Pause was so unpopular.
Guess I'm just too used to it, like tank controls or something. Turnbased is fun too, but it kind of takes me out of the game. And after playing x-coms I don't feel any tension anymore. Feels weird man

>>723711854
WotR has one of the worst fights of all time that illustrates that issue - the fucking tavern defense in act 1 which takes FUCKING FOREVER on turn based while being complete cancer on rtwp mode due to sheer amount of shit happening at once.

>>723711685
I don't dislike this system but where it fails is that you can't implement an action economy. If turns play out simultaneously all characters will only ever get one action. If everyone gets individual turns you can implement methods to increase actions delay enemy actions which I personally think are too much fun to not have.

>>723711990
RTwP takes the worst parts of RPGs and RTS genres and it's incredibly cringe

>>723712108
But it shows the strength of the toggle system. For the stretches where you're just cleaning up mooks you flick it to real time and then when real shit starts going down you switch to turn based. Being able to do so on the fly makes those games feel way better than ones locked to one or the other, ocassional jankiness as the game tries to figure out turn orders and remaining actions and shit when toggling aside.

>>723712104
I can deal with it just fine and some of my favorite games are RTWP. But if a Dev was polling me about how to implement their new TTRPG based combat system I'd say turn based every time.

I like both but I greatly enjoyed how in BG has variable casting speed while every spell takes the same amount of time to cast in TB or how I can recognize that enemy wizard is about to cast a fireball so you can react and move out of the way.

I wish more crpg's would use the diablo 1 "realtime" grid based action system. It's basically just a crpg with a tick rate instead of an end turn button.

>>723712269
That's not an strength, the entire game is designed around RTWP and TB just makes things last longer. On the other hand the encounters itself fucking suck, WotR just has bad combat in general

>>723710990
Dark Envoy

>>723712108
Sure. Kingmaker also has the Viscount Smoulderburn fight which is torture in TB (only nat 20s hit him). But narratively all those trash waves aren't really necessary, nor is it actually "good" gameplay as your just attack clicking your whole part in different directions. If "expediates shitty combat scenarios" is the major plus, I'm not convinced.

>>723710715 (OP)
GOOD, RTwP is dogshit

>>723712476
What, you don't enjoy buffstacking to the moon and wading into a horde over overstatted demons to autoattack until they die over and over and over again?

>>723710990
They Are Billions.

>>723711925
That fight is way, way, way more than five enemies. And it's all trash.

>>723710715 (OP)
Makes sense.
Good examples of RTwP are over a decade old as this point.
It can be great system but it needs talented people to properly implement it, something that doesn't exist anymore in the industry
TB is easier to make and way easier to play.

>>723712626
I do nigga, if you don't think thats the sickest shit get out of my face

>>723711702
The solution is pretty easy. For fights with hordes of trash mobs, you just allow all the trash mobs to take their turns simultaneously to speed things up.

Also, turn based games should have fast forward buttons like AOW4.

>>723712452
They kind of all are like that still. Turns are way faster, movement isn't tied to grid and animations transition smoother. iirc Neverwinter Nights early levels each turn was ~2 seconds with characters standing around, waiting.

>>723712104
For me RTwP takes me out. Always feels like I'm telling someone else to do something while in turnbased at least when I click attack they attack. Like in Jagged Alliance 2 or XCOM you get the tactile association of click the button, the gun shoots, noise plays, it hits or doesn't.

>>723711378
Kek

>>723710715 (OP)
Turn-troons have nightmares about RTwP, because it confuses their little pea brains, don't they? lmao

>>723711925
Man it was a fucking miracle when I found out you can just go fast enough that you can skip that fight entirely.

>>723712571
Making every encounter a puzzle or challenging isn't good design either. You ideally want a mix of encounter types, including some that demonstrate how far you've come in a clear and visceral manner by taking old encounters and letting you wreck them. In TB its far less impactful and cathartic because it slows everything down to the same mechanics you used before.
Additionally, turn based puzzles lack the organic pace that a RTwP puzzle can achieve by having the action continue while you figure things out. Time limits are for more arbitrary if they break the TB rules with a real timer, and have a different mindset with a turn limit.

>>723710846
>Fallout 1 is the only good crpg with turn-based combat
This.

>>723710715 (OP)
RTwP was killed by the mod for Kingmaker, BG3 was the victory parade

>>723712104
I don't hate RTwP, but it is very hard to implement it so that the screen doesn't just become a fucking clusterfuck of shit happening. I feel BG1 did a good job, but BG2 got too overwhelming. BG2 eventually filtered me.

>>723712921
Sawyerbros...

ok but wat about mmo combats?
pichalfrel

>>723712876
>visceral
>impactful
>cathartic
>organic
Your argument has descended into subjective mush.

>>723711348
It was a losing proposition since the Infinity Engine games were based on D&D which is turn based, so there were always going to be a gap between the system and the playing experience. Dragon Age had a chance of reviving RTWP and improving it, but they abandoned it in favor of "press a button, something awesome happens".

Turnbased > RTwP > RT

I fucking love me so turnbased CRPGs. Currently going through Rogue Trader.

>>723710715 (OP)
It was announced in march. Zero news after that. Probably a scam for the Avowed spotlight, since they use same universe.

>>723712963
He said outright they only did RTwP for PoE because of backer nostalgia and he wouldn't have picked it himself

>>723711464
>Diablo players
RTS players*

>>723710846
>I now remember starting a fight in a city with 10+ junkies around, in Fallout 2

>>723712104
The complaining about RTwP started about 15 years ago, when low-IQ browns in the Third World gained Internet access. Before that, everyone seemed to like it.

These days niggers complain about every game being too hard and confusing. They can't even beat Silk song. kek

>>723713194
LMAO faggot has lost control over his own projects

>>723710990
Aliens Dark Descent.

>>723713194
>All the bad decisions I made in my games were fan choices. Personally, I totally would have made the same choices as all these wildly more popular games that mogged mine down the line

>>723713235
"everyone" being retarded Diablo chimpanzees maybe

>>723711573
They're the exact same when you think about it.

>>723713087
This whole thread is opinion, whats your point?
Also, an organic time limit isn't subjective. My point was that you can implement an event that relies on real world time as a way to increase tension in an encounter while trying to discern the solution. Doing so in a TB system clashes mechanically, as you either need an artificial timer or implement a real world timer into a non time based structure.

>>723711780
>make fewer encounters with wolves that are better designed.
That's BG2. Most encounters are different and require different tactics.

>>723713235
RtWP always sucked, it was just novel at the time after stuff like blobbers and turn based rpgs but in the end proven itself to be a stupid implementation of DnD gameplay.

>>723710715 (OP)
I like turn based but only because it's easier
rtwp is for real gamers

>>723713291
Also he puts DT in the game

>>723711143
Go back to playing VNs and JRPGs (VNs with grinding), you fucking weeb.

>>723713395
Stop false flagging, rtwptard.

>>723710990
baldur's gate
baldur's gate 2
neverwinter nights
neverwinter nights 2
pillars of eternity
pillars of eternity 2
pathfinder
pathfinder 2

>>723713291
Distaste for romance in RPGs is a much bigger weird Sawyer hangup that continues to negatively impact Obsidian RPG sales.

>>723711780
Fighting 1 wolf in Baldur's Gate is dangerous. Its also a natural consequence of exploitation, and doesn't need to be a set piece encounter.

>>723713463
He's right about not including them, fuck romance niggers

>>723713414
Devil Trigger?

>>723713358
My point is your argument amounts to "I prefer RTWP because it feels better to me." Ok? Cool preference bro.

>>723710715 (OP)
Good. RTWP has always been complete shit, and anyone pretending it's for intelligent genius oldfags is a retard seeing as it was dumb novelty that only started around 2000. It combines the worst of turn based with the worst of real time. It makes single player games feel more like an MMO.

>>723713414
I always liked DT.
Armor really should have a threshold before any attacks even make a dent, just being reduction is ridiculous and not how they really work irl

>>723713543
damage threshold
all sawyer games must have DT

>>723713463
That's because he likes cuck shit unironically.
>If I were to make romances in a game that were done in a way that I find appealing, would an audience enjoy that, or would they really actually even hate it more than romances not being in the game?
> I don't like the idea that you can 'win' everything or get everyone on your side.

>>723713381
It would have made sense if CRPGs evolved into actual strategy games. Like imagine a game where you start as a lone wolf and pause just to use spells, but by the end your are a feudal lord and command an entire army.

>>723713463
And then they added romance in PoE2 and it was complete shit.

>>723713610
>no devil trigger in Sawyer's games
that's why all of his games are shit

>>723713532
From a marketing and financial standpoint excluding them is 100% a mistake.

>>723710990
The main problem with RTWP isn't the system itself it is that combat isn't lethal enough to actually justify it. Why even bother pausing when nobody does any damage? The only RTWP game where the combat is lethal enough to actually justify it is Icewind Dale.

>>723713590
Yeah I always liked it too

Most new games with some kind of armor system like Souls and Bethesda Fallout effectively have DT where bigger single attacks penetrate heavy defense better than multiple small hits so it's been assimilated into standard design

>>723710990
Just Dragon Age 1 really. Even kotor shits itself as far as how the allies use their time. Turn-based is much more fun imo.

>>723713440
here's a fine example. a fight utterly trivialized by turn-based whereas real-time will cost you 2-3 party members before you even know whats going on. turn-based takes out any challenge by giving you all the time in the world to plan your strategy and even inspect/read the mob's strength and weaknesses

>>723713574
>seeing as it was dumb novelty that only started around 2000.
And created the best RPGs of all time and the best strategy games there are.
Meanwhile TB is so simple it's by gacha games because it knows even little kids can play it

>>723713749
>by giving you all the time in the world to plan your strategy and even inspect/read the mob's strength and weaknesses
Are you by any chance retarded? What's P stands for in rtwP?

>>723710715 (OP)
Wasn't killed by BG3. It was killed by Original Sin 1. It's why Pillars of Eternity 2 had turn-based support from the start. Original Sin series made even Owlcat add turn-based to Kingmaker, and during development, to WotR. Rogue Trader, of course, is developed only for turn-based. This was before BG3.

>>723713848
>Original Sin series made even Owlcat add turn-based to Kingmaker
No, that was because of a popular TB mod

Do any RTwP people seriously think their arguments work or is it like people arguing for the coin flip in soma threads and just being annoying is the point

>>723713235
trvthnvke

success of bg3 proved that turn based is for masses (so for low iqs), rtwp is too complicated for them
>WAAAHH WAHHHH I can't think about so many characters at once!!

>>723713703
Are you not familiar with difficulty sliders?

>>723713636
What you're describing is custom WC3 adventure maps, I remember playing one just like that lmao.

>>723713749
And pause let's you do the same, fucking reatard. Anyone playing on high difficulty have pause after every round setting activated any way.

>>723710715 (OP)
Good. I don't like RTwP, I tolerated it when I wanted to rush through trivial fights in Owlcat games but that's about it.

>>723710715 (OP)
Real-time with pause is renowned as a retard filter. That said, why does Obsidian now suddenly want simpletons and the physically disabled to play their 10 y/o game? Turn-based mode didn't improve sales for Deadfire either.

>>723713897
No, they didn't add the mode just because of a mod. The same reason they supported turn-based from the start with WotR: Original Sin games proved a large deman for turn-based CRPGs.

turn based sucks because if you have equal sides then whoever starts first wins and there is no thinking required

rtwp is for gigachads

>>723713614
Being cucked mentally is his real limitation. A proud cuck would include cucking in every corner of his games.

>>723714029
>Real-time with pause is renowned as a retard filter.
You mean games where you can win every encounter just by having your party autoattack the enemy to death?

>>723713703
For me it's the other way around, in turn based your party has to survive getting hit with a fireball because you can't really do anything about it, in real time you can recognize that the enemy is about to cast a fireball and move out of the way so damage can be scaled accordingly.

>>723713749
Didn't read but playful Darkness is my favorite fight in the game. I always do it RTwP, because it's fun like that.

>>723713703
I have to pause to make sure my three mages throw all their magic missiles at the same time.

>>723714090
We're not talking about bg3 now, timmy.

>>723713749
Are RTWP defenders too retarded to use pause? Explains a lot. RTWP sucks because it allows developers to have tedious filler combat throughout the game, with most combat devolving to you just easily autoattacking everything to death. Turn-based exposes weak encounter design.

>>723713570
No, you are just choosing to not engage the points, evidenced by your inability to comprehend the argument for organic time based puzzles.
When you enter into a TB battle it slows the pace of the game. This slowed pace inherently causes you to engage with a situation differently than you would in a real time environment. Ambushes, for example, in a turn based environment are either
>no to little different than any other encounter
Or
>mechanically distinct to put you at a disadvantage through numbers
At best you are using the environment to do the heavy lifting, but plenty of turn based battles use cover, the lack thereof, elevation and traps, not just an ambush. The challenge is one of preparation, not response.
An ambush in RTwP is entirely different. Its about your response to the situation. Your party are in arbitrary positions which may or may be conducive to combat. You don't need mechanical disadvantages, as you will take some amount of time to come to terms with the situation and decide on a course of action. You can mitigate this with pausing, but you still must spend time as a resource to recover. You need to think and act to ongoing developments as you understand your circumstances. You are pressured not just to plan, but to act.

>>723714218
if you just autoattack in rtwp then you die
also rtwp means you will always lose hp
in turn based you just start turn and kill everyone before they move
turn based = easy mode

>>723713463
you really want to romance these characters?

>>723713749
Just pause, retard
>b-but it caught me off-guard!
It's going to catch you off-guard in TB too

>>723714317
There is no RTWP game where you "just die" from auto attacking, lol. Maybe build your characters better, nigger?

>>723714354
And it will mean nothing, since the pace stops for you.

>>723713140
RTWP was made for AD&D 2nd Ed and combat in that game was basically RTWP. The combat round in that system was

1. The DM has the players describe what their characters will do. Declaration.

2. A D6 is rolled for each side, player characters and foes. Initiative.

3. Combat is played out, usually starting with those outside of melee before those actually in melee. Combat.

RTWP made perfect sense for AD&D 2nd ed for multiple reasons, but especially how RTWP shines when it's mostly auto attack with some spells casted now and then. The kind of combat that modern TT is trying to move away by giving martials more actions and complexity.

>>723714317
>if you just autoattack in rtwp then you die
Hello

>>723714398
>just read guides to know what's good before playing man

>>723714349
I'd fuck cultist girl. It can hardly be less cursed than the only romance being matchmaking for your Ace teammate in OW1.

>>723710990
FTL

>>723710715 (OP)
>i thought i hated crpgs so never play them
>start trying out some
>turns put i actually hated fantasy crpgs not rpgs in general

>>723713235
>They can't even beat Silk song. kek
Has the turn-based brigade demanded a turn-based mode for Hollow Knight: Silksong yet? I mean, that real-time combat sure is super fast and confusing..

Get gud, boomers. kek

>>723713373
>place traps with thief
>skull traps with mage
>if late game = horrid wilting
insane variety, you're right

>>723714439
If you're a white man, you don't need to read guides. AD&D is super simple, so just briefly browsing the manual that comes with BG1 and 2 solves it. 3.5e and PF1e are super similar and can also be solved easily. Owlcat games don't even obfuscate information, so character building is very simple.

RTWP sucks.

>>723713913
Not everyone is making the same arguments.

>>723710715 (OP)
you know, i really enjoyed Dawn of War 2/Company of Heroes combat, cant we have a CRPG with that kind of combat?

Good.

RTWP is great.

>>723713970
Well WC3 was a RTS with heavy RPG elements.

>>723710715 (OP)
Good. Any good RTwP game was good in spite of it not because of it.

Yakuza Infinite Wealth and Like a Dragon were unironically gems as far as turn-based games go. I mean that from their mechanics even, not the overall package. The dynamic world being usable in combat like cones and signs as well as the idle movmenet that actually messes with how you do positional attacks. Pure fucking kino and I wouldn't doubt if none of it was original somehow I wouldn't care that shit was SOLID.

>>723714510
the GOAT

>>723714659
those are top-down action games desu

>>723714029
Every single decision Obsidian has ever made is based on copying a more successful company.

>>723714428
It's a completely different design philosophy; Larian tried to make a game that would play as much as dnd session as possible whereas Bioware back in the day tried to translate the dnd systems into a game they wanted to make - "a tabletop rpg has to be turn based due to logistics but these logistics do not constrain a video game" etc.

>>723714712
They're literally the most basic barebones RPG ever, Anon.

good, RTWP deserves to die out, along with MOBAs and battle royale

Don't roguelikes already do it best where it may as well be considered real time because every movement causes everyone else to move at the same time? In other words it plays exactly as fast as you want it to play.

It's better than the others because:
1. You don't have to fuck around with manually pausing
2. You don't have to wait around for slow turn-based slowness

>>723710990
Aarklash Legacy

>>723710715 (OP)
GOOD

jokes on them, I just avoid rpgs altogether

>>723714824
I think you need to die out instead

>>723714278
>Your party are in arbitrary positions which may or may be conducive to combat.
Also true in almost all turn based systems. You aren't exploring in TB, and besides RTWP usually pause on ambush as well. I'm failing to see how "no surprise round" is so much better and super "organic." Honestly it seems like your entire argument is predicated on not pausing at all in RTWP. So lol. If you want an action game, play an action game. Those are great too.

>>723711464
>muh diablo
When was the first rtwp crpg released in your opinion?

>>723710715 (OP)
My issue with RTwP is that I find I only ever really focus on my main character. TB allows me to play all my characters and get to know their strengths better than just zerg rushing and pausing constantly trying to understand what is happening

>>723710846
this website is so fucking shit
It's just a bunch of retards who don't play games spouting obviously wrong contrarian opinions that they think will make them fit in and look cool or 'elite'.

KILL YOURSELF

>>723714807
Dont care it was fun as fuck combat wise. Sure the job system could have been better and status effects worth a shit but I really REALLY liked the positional/AoE attacks, idle movements, and using shit in the environment naturally in combat. Yakuza has never been known for depth of combat but it was a very pleasing surprise compared to the usual beat 'em up. That being said Y2 is still my fav by far

>>723713463
Would devs that are averse to romance in their RPGs be more comfortable with it if the romancable characters were a separate bunch of characters from your actual core cast and party members

>>723714623
the only actual good argument for RTwP is realism in small unit tactics sims like 7.62mm, because it has the infinite command depth of turnbased to simulate how much shit a real person can do in a combat situation that you couldn't possibly ever map to a gamepad to play out in RT, but without the extreme abstractions of TB.

But the millennial RTwP retards on 4chan are too stupid to even notice that and just make brainstem pseudo-arguments

>>723714349
Well Tim Cain is literally an homosexual.

>>723714905
you're outdated, an old model, nobody wants you anymore

>>723714519
>turn-based mode for Hollow Knight: Silksong
It probably won't be long until we see the first turn-based platformer and Metroidvania.

>>723714964
>I'm a brainlet
Yea that's the problem with RTwP, it requires some extra braincells that the average player doesn't have.

>>723714939
Darklands is the first I know of but that was just an experimental phase in games (and it sucks, but I don't hold that against an experiment). The RTwP that 4chan is defending is BG1-2.

>>723713639
Because it was managed by a cuckold autist who hates his own playerbase and doesn't understand the appeal of romance

It's super fucking simple, too. Almost nobody fucks it up. Make both characters hot. Add some tension. Bam. You're done. As far as subplots go its the easiest to execute.

>>723715043
>dude just spam space bar every 5 seconds its so fun

RTWPkeks meltie itt

>>723713703
Icewind dale was brutal fun but i doubt the other RTWPs were a cakewalk unless you were looking up guides or save scummed. For a BG example, casting aoes into nothing only works if you know the enemy is near.

>>723715003
You're a seething little sperg who thinks the industry needs to change according to your own whims

>>723710990
Only the ones where you control one character or the ones where the party can be automated decently. Like Neverwinter nights, Kotor, Dragon age etc.
Once you need to micromanage your entire party, it just becomes a mess. If I wanted to play an RTS, I'd just play broodwar.

>>723715176
>your own
No, the majority's. You lost, sorry.

>>723713232
>killing the slavers in the den

>>723715104
If that's all there is to it then why are you having trouble following along with what's happening? It's obvious that you lack the brainpower to process what's going on.

>>723712104
it's just better for you to control your party rather than counting on shitty ai, and macros don't help much

>>723714530
Does that kill the giant red dragon you can fight early on?

RTWP always was just an attempt by RPG's to be Diablo

>>723714825
Nah. There are tactics games built around simultaneous turns, but that's more or less the worst of both worlds for what a long RPG is after. Both Slow and opaque decision making. Not to mention a party makes it significantly more complicated.

>>723714712
Kys fujo.

>>723715246
No one dislikes rtwp because "it's hard". People dislike it because turn based allows you to have more strategy than just using the door as a chokepoint.

>For some reason, combatants take their turns one at a time.
>It now takes five minutes to kill a pack of wolves instead of fifteen seconds.
Turn-based gameplay is incredibly cringe and completely kills immersion.

>>723715321
There is literally nothing wrong with being a fujo.

>>723714317
Buff --> Auto Attack works against literally every single enemy in BG2
Put Carsomyr in a paladin's hand (the game helpfully provides you with a paladin companion who's top tier) buff them up and just have them auto-attack, even spellcasters can't do shit because holy avenger

>>723714218
RTwP seems like its trying to overcome the "filler" parts of tactics turn based.
But the issue is, tactics turn based should not have filler to begin with.
Its a map/encounter design problem, not necessarily a combat system problem.

And I'm replaying KOTOR 2 right now, its still really fun but so annoying when a companion decides to run through mines or go aggro the next group of enemies by themself.

Ideally it would be turn based, with tight encounters that have no filler.

>>723713229
Comparing RTWP cRPGs to RTS is amazingly stupid.

>>723715351
That's just poorly implemented turn-based combat.
There are plenty of ways to speed up trivial encounters.

>>723714825
Roguelikes don't really work like that, it's more that you just don't see anything that happens between your turns. Like if you're fighting some speedy enemies that takes 5 turns for every one you do, you just see like "speedy gonzales attacks you and hits, speedy gonzales attacks you and misses, speedy gonzales attacks you and hits, speedy gonzales attacks you and hits, speedy gonzales attacks you and hits." in the message stack

This has the benefit that you don't have to watch anything you can't do anything about and compresses all that meaningless time.

>>723715347
This is all cope, just because you're too dense to be aware of the strategy doesn't mean it isn't there. If the only way you can process what's happening is by having every action laid out in 5+ second intervals then that's too bad.

>>723715351
Why is it necessary to kill meaningless packs of wolves over and over again in your game?

Niggas really brought up Kotor and FUCKING Arcanum as examples of well implemented rtwp, oh my days

>>723714741
how are Dawn of War 2 and Company of Heroes action games?

>>723714978
It appealed to fans of Diablo and RTS, which were way popular back in the day. If RTWP evolved it should have gone in that direction, either by having more ARPG elements, or turning into full blown real time tactics.

>>723715351
that's why good Turn Based games don't have you fight endless packs of wolves that have 0 chance of winning

Turn Based if done properly only has you fight a pack of wolves at lv 1 when it's an existential threat and you're having to get creative to survive, then helpfully has the wolves not bother you when you're level 10 and returning home from slaying a dragon

seriously, RTwP fans have some weird obsession with somehow WANTING trash encounters in their games

>>723710990
Final Fantasy 7R and 12

>>723710715 (OP)
It's been dead long before that, leftism killed it and Crpgs in general.

>>723710715 (OP)
oh thank god
I turned the game to story because of that shit rtwp

>>723715026
Kinda pointless since exploration would still be in real time, unless you went really crazy with the idea.

>>723711204
it was semi turn based
real time with turns

>>723715671
Why put a picture of a gay TB defender though

>muh turd based combat
>>723715528
>>723715528
why are you communicating like a black? what color is your skin?

>>723715520
bro, rtwp makes the game easier since only you get to pause the game
hell one of the most common things rtwp players do is abuse the pause and time-based turn system to kite enemies endlessly since there's no risk of fucking it up given you know the enemy will only be able to attack once every 5 seconds

it's like RTS kiting but baby mode because you're never just a single bad input away from fucking it up, you can pause at any moment to eat the bad input and undo it

>>723715671
RTwP enjoyers get haircuts more often? Pretty cool.

>>723715458
You have an very extremely low IQ.

>>723715662
Yes, all the games specifically called "RTWP" work that way.

Every RTwP game is the exact same shit.
>Four wolves? Right-click, Auto-attack them to death
>Four Dire Fire Giants? Bear's Strength, Owl's Wisdom, Fox's Cunning, Bless, Barkskin, Obsidian Flesh, Greater Spell Ward, Burning Weapon, Haste, Greater Invisibility, Web, Right-Click, auto-attack them to death.
Map out which autistic partywide multiclass routes gives your designated auto-attacker (also autistically multiclassed) the most damage per round.
There is no strategy to any of them outside of character planning. A person with 1500 hours is going to have the exact same difficulty with Hard Mode as someone using a GameFAQs character build their first playthrough.

I just finished WotR a month ago, so don't even pretend like that isn't literally all the entire genre is.

>>723715457
>tactics turn based should not have filler to begin with.
This is a complete impossibility in an immersive open world rpg. Either you make huge areas lifeless, you shrink the size of the explorable game world, or you make every area have a predictable bandit ambush or whatever. But even then, the game will always have people squeezing out xp early and being overpowered for some encounters.

This problem exists in turn-based games as well, one of the most popular mods is usually going to be something that speeds up combat. Novices need things to go slowly, experts don't.

>>723715562
the problem is that RPGs fundamentally need to have a huge amount of command depth, as in you need to be able to do lots and lots of shit at any given time control-wise. In a pausable or TB game you can go into a big spellbook menu or inventory and pick from dozens of things with multiple options each without the game becoming a test of how fast you can navigate menus. There's only so much command depth you can fit into RT controls.

Everyone hates most of the attempts to rationalize pausing to keep a game "mostly RT", like games having some kind of limited amount of time you can stay paused.

>>723713373
Casting the same handful of buffs and using breach isn't variety.

>>723715895
Are you playing solo Kensai mage?

>>723715909
>open world
yeah that also has no place in RPGs

>>723715909
BG2 doesn't have filler fights.

>>723710990
7.62, because it's a modern day setting, gun based combat works really well for RTwP, peopple have this weird hang up on the kind of system like it's a political party, I think the best system depends on the setting and the game feel the developers want to provide.

>>723715561
They prioritize micro, movement, abilities. The control scheme isn't as direct, tactile as TPS action game, but still essentially the same. You just need juggle multiple "characters" at the same time.

rtwp is pure popamole 90% of the time and the only saving grace is saving time in storyfag games where you don't want to play the combat parts
good turn based > good rtwp > bad rtwp >>> bad turn based

>>723715917
>the problem is that RPGs fundamentally need to have a huge amount of command depth
No you don't. Vampire The Masquerade Bloodliness is open of the best RPGs ever made and that uses basic FPS controls. Having hundreds of spells don't necessarily make the roleplaying any better.

>>723715728
The pausing allow devs to create way more complex scenarios with way more things going on simultaneously, something that would be pretty much unmanageable without pausing or lots of automation. Comparing it to RTS is pretty disingenuous when we're talking about turn-based games in the same breath, if you want to talk about simplistic and primitive gameplay then look no further than turn-based.

>>723715981
>everything needs to be a linear tactics game
Some of us like exploration and immersion bro.

>>723715996
It absolutely does if you do stuff in the right order. I did most side content first on my last run and was unstoppable for most of the main story.

>>723716140
your example is a bad action game with zero depth in combat

>>723715895
and the worst part is that neither D&D nor Pathfinder were ever designed for real time combat
they are turn-based systems through and throughout, RTwP is a bastardization of the tabletop that completely robs you of the tense moments

>>723716140
>Vampire The Masquerade Bloodliness is open of the best RPGs ever made
looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

>>723715919
>implying I didn't beat the entire Beholder cult by just giving Viconia the mirror cloak
>implying I need buffs to kill a dragon with magic missiles before he can even move

TAC0 is the best defense mechanic ever created

These threads always devolve into RTwP-fags pretending they never paused and always played the game real time. You, like everyone else who played RTwP games, paused frequently to queue up commands.

>>723710715 (OP)
>RTwP was killed
Thats a good thing. Only Sawyer wants to break standards because he's a contrarian.

>>723716236
'e a big lad 'e is

bg3 is kino

>>723713703
There are some absolutely braindead opinions in this thread, but this one takes the cake.

>>723716201
t. never played it

>>723712104
RTwP stresses me out, it gets chaotic fast.

>>723716236
>TAC0
Thac0

>>723715176
only one seething here is you lmao, nobody likes your outdated and proven bad mechanics

>>723716164
They Are Billions is a RTS and it has a pause button.

>>723716351
just pause nigga

>>723716164
>The pausing allow devs to create way more complex scenarios
there's not a single RTwP rpg out there that comes even close to the complexity of an RTS campaign

I'm talking about RTS games because effectively that's what RTwP tries to be, but it fails at one of the most critical aspects: RTwP does not force you to commit to your actions

and that's what makes it such a braindead system devoid of complexity, you literally can't fuck up unless you're too lazy to press the pause button

and ironically it's something both RTS and Turn-Based games have in commit: they force you to commit to the action you've taken, in different ways obviously, but in an RTS trying to undo a bad action has a cost to it in terms of time spent and actions taken, while a Turn Based game, after you've taken an action and realize it's about to go bad for you, does not let you undo your input

>>723716185
>if you do stuff in the right order
There is no right order.

>we'll make a real REAL TIME ACTION mode so you can jump right in the ACTION yourself
>but you have to pause constantly because our retarded system doesn't actually work in real time
Good fucking riddance.

>>723716351
Depends on the game. Old school titles did, but KOTOR and Dragon Age: Origins slowed the encounters and timers down a lot and I felt those were completely manageable.

>>723716434
idk man rts campaigns are pretty braindead...
they rarely go beyond "build a huge army and march around killing everything else on the map"

>>723716395
Sure but these games are also marketed as multiplayer games. A whole party of people pausing and unpausing on their own gets really annoying fast.

>>723716250
The point of pausing is that the game is too complex to be played without pausing unless you are a professional gook-clicker.

>>723716390
They Are Billions is RTwP dumbass, you can place build orders and set up unit movent paths / patrols while the game is paused

>>723710715 (OP)
pillars of eternity had every opportunity to be a good game but it's just so fucking boring

>>723715996
Within 15 minutes of starting BG2 you fight: multiple packs of goblins with no dialogue or drops, a pack of clay golems that you purposefully fail a puzzle for just for exp, a lone demon that exists exclusively to drop a +1 sword, and some duergar with generic "argh, get them" dialogue.
All of these encounters are designed to be soloed by Imoen, since they're the only character you're guaranteed to have at that point that isn't a mage with 6 int.

>>723716375
I like TAC0 better, because it reminds me of tacos, my favorite food.

>>723716328
Damn, Laezel's VA is such a smokeshow

>>723716351
>RTwP stresses me out, it gets chaotic fast
Further proof this discussion centers entirely around skill issues.

>>723716529
no one plays them in multiplayer doebeit

>>723716434
>complexity
>RTS campaign
Bruh.

>play tabletop RPGs
>turn based works out perfectly
>play CRPG based off of said tabletop games
>turn based is somehow bad

>>723716658
DMs know when and how to cheat to make things fun in a way the computer can't

>>723716536
If you have to tack on a pause system because otherwise your game design is literally unplayable then hasn't something gone wrong? Just make it a turn based game at that rate.

>>723716539
That's the point. It's both a classic RTS and a RTWP game.

>>723710990
kotor was great.

>>723716564
So the tutorial?

>>723716647
>>723716497
play on higher difficulty

>>723716658
Most people don't have an issue with turn based games existing even if they aren't fans of those games. You guys have an unresolved persecution/inferiority complex.

>>723716434
Some missions on hard in WC3 and SC2 were pretty challenging and required a plan or cheese on top of executions, I'll give you that. But overall other anons are right, it's mostly, don't die at first, build and right click another side of a map.

>>723716802
i do. on the highest difficulty all the ones ive played still boil down to that kind of gameplay. its really fun but i wouldnt call it 'complex'. the ones that stray the most from that age of empires kind of formula are, ironically, the ones with rpg mechanics like warcraft 3 or spellforce 3

rtwp lets devs get lazy and just throw trash encounters at you that you can just fullspeed through and pretend it's content
turn based exposes these type of encounters for what they are so it forces the devs to handcraft encounters or at least ensure that every encounter has some form of challenge to it

>>723716948
copium 1000%

>>723716948
That's a failure on the devs, not the system though

>>723716434
>RTwP does not force you to commit to your actions
It has a pause button not an undo button, pausing allow you time to think about your actions before unpausing again. This allows devs to create a lot more complex gameplay since the player can play a lot more optimally. Not everyone wants to play games where the goal is to become a 200apm Korean sperg in order to do well. RTwP is the best of both worlds.

>>723716936
I mean even if warcraft 3 has rpg like mechanics it's not letting you just pause micro everything
you want to have your hero unit cast a spell you're going to have to properly micro it without fucking up

>>723716561
The gods alone make the game for me. I love them.

>>723716720
13 Sentinels had a system that was like a mix of real time and turn based commands that worked quite well. It's very hard to control six units with unique abilities that also require specific positioning. But if you do pure turn based then the experience becomes completely inorganic, less of a war simulation and more like playing Chess or Risk.

>>723717045
I loved all the god interactions in those games, especially deadfire. They're well written and fuck Woedica.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bqVB1MCN2c

>>723717036
nnooooOOooOOOOooo you must do niggas in a row with TURNS

>>723715565
What you're saying makes no sense in terms of RP. If there are wolves in the forest, there are wolves in the forest, why should it matter what level you are?

>>723717036
no the pause button is an undo button in every RTwP rpg out there, you can use the pause to cancel actions in every single major RPG that uses the system since it still works on internal turns rather than actual real time

RTwP is the worst of both worlds

In terms of complexity, compare BG2 encounters to BG3 encounters, it's night and day how much the latter actually have going on and how much options the player has and needs in them
BG2 also has effectively 0 tactical movement and placement either

>>723717027
it's a failure of the system too because in rtwp you can just gloss through every combat in 10 seconds by literally auto attacking, which then leads to devs adding filler combat.

>>723716948
I haven't played a single turn-based game without copious amounts of trash encounters where all you do is brainlessly mash attack until all the enemies are dead, the only difference is that these encounters take way longer in a turn-based game.

>>723716794
Ignoring that it isn't a tutorial, the second you get out of it you start having literal random encounters, including repeatable unnamed bandit ambushes.
BG2 has filler fights. You'd probably know this if you had played it.

I wake up from my nightmares to find that the Xenoblade games are in fact turn-based. All is right with the world and I can continue the Xeno franchise. Each games continues to try and find a good turn-based formula and like before they all sucked ass, lmao.

>>723710715 (OP)

Good. I fucking hate it in Wrath of the Righteous.

>>723717264
play age of decadence senpai

>>723717225
for me in Baldur's Gate it's the JPG backgrounds that are completely unreadable in terms of gameplay information and you can't tell whether it will take 3, 4, 5, or more characters to physically block a doorway before you try it

>>723717042
Go play League of Legends, but you have to manually control all five champions at the same time.

>>723717265
every rtwp crpg has filler combat, whether it's planescape torment, neverwinter night or bg2. even aaa games like god of war have tons of filler combat.
bg3 is one of the few games where each encounter is unique, it's quite rare in video games in general.

>>723717196
because that's how tabletop rpg's have always worked
no GM is having you fight wolves at lv 10 in D&D
if you have an encounter with wolves at that level it would just be boring dicerolls you know you can't fail, so even if you encounter wolves, what's most likely to happen is the barbarian growls menacingly at the wolves which then slink away with a funny description

tabletop encounters take a long time to go through, so generally speaking, you want each one to be memorable

>>723717229
No, because easy combats are made to be easy and quick
The fact that TB drags every single encounter is the failure, devs putting shitty encounters because they can't think is on them

>>723717225
If you queue up an attack and change that attack before the unit can fire then there is nothing wrong with that, it's all happening within a span of in-game time, logically speaking the unit in question can change its mind before committing to something.

>>723717264
BG3 is the big recent turn based game and it doesn't really do random trash encounters
it has easier encounters sure, but they're all still hand-crafted

there's no endless enemy spam like fucking Neverwinter Nights fucking 2, holy shit Obsidian those orc caves went on about 3 hours longer than they should have

>>723717225
Zoomers are a cancer

>>723717468
>i want easy combat
just lower the difficulty anon, having combat be easy is a game design failure because combat is there to provide a challenge.

>>723717225
It's almost as if BG3 was made 25 years after BG2, by a game developer who had perfected their own combat system, while taking lessons from every single CRPG and turn based game made ever since. Meanwhile, Bioware was at the EA mines making Anthem.

>>723717475
and logically speaking, you changing your mind mid-action should let the enemy punish you for that because starting an action is an action in itself

Modern game devs are such cowards, only copies what the popular video games are doing, have some guts to stick to your guns

>people saying kotor
They nerfed it to walk over difficulty and that's how it "worked".

>>723717265
The ambushes are super rare.

>>723710715 (OP)
>DrPizzaTechnica

>>723717602
even if we compare games from back then
compare x-com to baldur's gate
it's night and day how much more complex encounters are in the former

>>723712876
>In TB its far less impactful and cathartic because it slows everything down to the same mechanics you used before.
>Additionally, turn based puzzles lack the organic pace that a RTwP puzzle can achieve
This is some of the dumbest shit I've ever read on this website.

My main issue with RTWP is one of two things.
>games with this combat tend to be so easy that they're borderline auto battlers
or
>the level of micromanagement required when it does get difficult makes it borderline a turn based game anyways

>>723716621
I have only ever played the BG series with friends.

>>723716580
istik

>>723710715 (OP)
FF XII had the best RTwP combat system ever made, in the form of the gambit system. This system could've been expanded on, no doubt, as it was pretty bare bones, but the core structure is there to build on.

Why are RTwPussies so sensitive?

Dragon Age Origins is a master class

Cyberpunk 2077 is also RTWP but no one seems to notice and half the reasons to use it got nerfed in PL.

>ask for a good RTWP game from friends
>someone tells me FTL
it's kind of weird, it doesn't feel like something i'd call traditional "real time with pause"
but then you think about it and real time with pause is just a paused game without a big ass UI in your face
something about that just feels retarded
diablo 2 is RTWP if i just hit pause every now and then, in fact, every game is

>>723717749
Before the reboot I only knew about X-COM from people /here/ talking about how it was a cult classic known for being impossibly hard.

>>723717905
hey retard, Dragon Age Origins had better MMORPG autobattler mechanics. You didn't play it because you don't belong in these threads.

>>723713784
>And created the best RPGs of all time and the best strategy games there are.
BG1 is the only decent Infinity Engine game, unless you count Planescape which is 100% held up by writing and has shit gameplay.

>>723714349
>#OpeningNig

>>723717951
CP is also pretty notorious for it's combat being by far the worst part though
especially with how much a pushover Smasher was due to the mechanics not letting him actually be the proper threat he's meant to be in the tabletop (thank fuck at least the Anime did him justice)

>>723717973
The difference between RTwP and a regular game with pause is that for RTwP the gameplay is built around the pause, meaning you can do shit while the game is paused. Like managing your automations, setting up targets, queuing abilitues, placing build orders etc. When you pause in D2 you can't do shit, it's just a pause from gameplay entirely.

>>723717973
It would be interesting to see action games that let you do more actions while in pause mode. I think Transistor is like that, but I haven't played it.

>>723710990
I always liked RTwP in the bootleg Czech UFO series

>>723718007
I played that game and FFXII does RTwP better. If you don't accept it as such and deem it an "auto-battler" then so be it. Dragon Age was superior with the character creator and overall RPG elements, but that's not what I addressed you mongoloid.

>>723717973
honestly even in FTL the RTwP baggage is what eventually made the game wear out its welcome. Either you commit to playing it in RT with a lot of spastic and repetitive clicking or you get bogged down in repetitive optimized play

>>723713459
Nah. They're good despite being rtwp.
Real time with pause is in no way inherently bad. But what is inherently bad is the attempt to take a turnbased system and then trying to translate it into a real time with pause system. A lot is lost in translation.

>>723718261
Transistor's pause mode effectively makes it go to turn-based and it has a bunch of limitations on it that keep things interesting
And the final boss actively uses turn-based mode against you

>>723716328
>>723717896
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDyFDxGI4ZE

>>723711776
LOL
Or should I say LMAO

>>723711776
planescape torment's combat was so bad it made me drop the game half way through.
fuck rtwp and fuck copy pasted encounters.

>>723718295
You choose yourself how much to pause, devs should have to account for you taking the fun out of the game because of your OCD or whatever. That's on you.

>>723714278
>You can mitigate this with pausing,
No, you can completely eliminate it with pausing. No amount of mental gymnastics will change this. You have the ability to pause the game. Period.

>>723714107
>in turn based your party has to survive getting hit with a fireball because you can't really do anything about it
You can do plenty about it before the enemy gets to cast that fireball. Effects hit harder because you were given all the time in the world to prepare. If you still can't take it then that's on you.

>>723718352
I'd do her even with the fucked up nose

>>723716140
Did you just use VtMB as an example of good combat?

>>723714278
In the context of what you're describing, there is functionally no difference between the game pausing itself when you get ambushed or you pausing the game manually when you get ambushed.

>>723714278
an ambush in Turn Based is both about preparation and response
Turn based games almost never have preparations go entirely as planned, you get a bad diceroll here or there and suddenly the shot that was meant to take out a dangerous enemy misses and now you've having to on the fly adapt to a situation different from what you expected

or you could have messed up your preparations, but not in a way you're running into a guaranteed loss, just means things get hairy

if anything tactical turn based games offer far more options for responding to an ambush than RTWP since they tend to have a focus on positioning and environmental use

>>723715347
Inching towards a group of enemies then nuking them with a fireball and shooting a bunch of webs towards them while telling your party not to move and then using arrows to finish them off is VERY high IQ.

>>723715775
I'm a research scientist. What do you do for a living?

>>723718908
He is also a research scientist. Source: I wrote it

>>723718636
person who kept the entire party grouped up going into a chokepoint through the main gate of castle Brimstone the home of the legendary wizard Burninator the Flamest gets nuked with a fireball

"there was nothing I could do"

>>723717951
DA:O was tolerable because it had - unique as far as I know - companion AI scripting system.
>if there are archers use skill X on them
>unless your hp is below 50%, then use skill Y
>...
That kind of automation partially solves the tedium issue rtwp has where you micro manage six dolls every single encounter. Naturally it was never used again because fun is bad.

>>723719051
speaking of "never used again because fun is bad"
Origins had these mega nuke spell combos you had to carefully set up with multiple casters

And then dragon age never used that again

>>723719051
I want to have fun not fucking code in my spare time.

>>723715996
You can literally get ambushed randomly in the city, and every dungeon quest in the first 2 chapters has about 3 dozen mob fights.

>>723719051
if the issue about rtwp had been tidium pillars of eternity would've been a rolling success.
combat that plays itself is even worse than combat where you have to pause every 3 seconds. why have combat at all if it plays itself?

>>723719097
The sequel was made for you.

>>723719149
>pillars of eternity
>rolling success

>>723719097
You can just go the retard rtwp way and micromanage them though?

>>723716497
Play the first C&C game. It absolutely did not have that design.

>>723719223
roaring success*
happy?

>>723719325
i dont think anyone who posts here is happy
look at the shit they post

>>723719096
That too. I thought they'd expand on it greatly because it felt kind of incomplete in origins... and then push a button and something happens happened.

>>723717225
>BG2 also has effectively 0 tactical movement and placement either
Not entirely true. I have to babysit the dogshit AI to stop it from running into my spells. That's high IQ tactical play.

>>723719051
It was used and expanded in DA2. But no one played that game.

>>723717996
it's a masterpiece, I don't say this lightly, it's gaming's The Last Supper, you should play it someday

>>723710990
Unironically Pillars 2 has the best rtwp because it's not tied to dnd.

>>723720007
pathfinder's rtwp isn't tied to dnd either and it's still shit.

>>723720161
Pathfinder is literally D&D 3.5 with mild changes

turn based - reddit
rtwp - 4chan

i wish i could just get over it but rtwp just filters me

turn-cringe can have only a few enemies because otherwise the fight will take an hour
only rtwp lets you have epic fights

RTWP sucks ass for anything other than trash fights. Having your entire party instantly exploded unless you constantly mash pause to babysit the retarded AI isnt fun.

>>723710715 (OP)
Is this a troll thread? I can play roguelikes because they're engaging but I may as well be counting sheep when it comes to sequential turn-based games.

I dont know why pillarsfags are assmad about turnbased combat when its the action rpg shit that spelled the demise of the genre. Obsidian made Avowed instead of pillars 3 because they wanted their own skyrim and chased money instead of sticking to what they are good at.

>>723721520
>I can play roguelikes because they're engaging
You're dumb and your opinions don't matter.

>>723715785
kotor calculates things in rounds even though you move in real time because it's using a jank d20 system.

>>723721675
>implying avowed is anything like skyrim
This is definitely a troll thread.

>>723721675
>sticking to what they are good at.
remind me again what it is that obsidian is supposedly good at?

>>723721810
i know its not skyrim, but its pretty obvious obsidian got told from the people upstairs at microsoft to make something out of the pillars IP similar skyrim and Avowed was the result of that. just like how outerworlds is not fallout but its clearly trying to fill a similar niche.

>>723714462
she's lesbian

>>723720161
PF1 is literally D&D, what the fuck are you talking about?

>>723721758
Yes that's how they all work god damnit

>>723720161
fucking retard

>>723722114
It failed miserably at it, so much so they had to distance themselves from Skyrim just before it released.

>>723721520
Yes it's a troll ragebait thread, but you are also a retard

>>723719051
>The apex of RtwP is FFXII

grim

The thing is, BG3 has zero generic filler combat encounters, every combat feels handplaced and designed with intent.
All rtwp RPGs is filled with generic and even RNG encounters that serve no purpose, specially owlcat stuff almost feels like a Diablo clone.

>>723720161
Anonymous this is like saying wow private servers aren't tied to blizzard

>>723722774
someone post the BG3 vs WotR combat paint jpg

>>723710715 (OP)
>RTwP was killed
hallelujah

>>723722774
>owlcat stuff almost feels like a Diablo clone
I wish. It feels like an autobattler mobile game.

>>723722774
I wouldn't say zero. The final stretch of act 3 definitely got padded out with several redundant encounters.

>>723723129
>i play autobattler mobile games
well the first step is admitting you have a problem.

>>723710715 (OP)
>RTwP was killed
>['Great News[
Good.
Shame we didn't get Pathfinder TB centric game from Owlcat

>>723723238
Who are you quoting?

>>723722774
maybe play an owlcat game first before shitposting? would give you at least some credibility, fucking retard.

>>723710715 (OP)
>Pillars of Eternity
>CRPG classic

Is this supposed to be funny?

>>723723301
He's right.

>>723723283
it's called paraphrasing anon, can't know what a mobile autobattler feels like without playing it.

>>723710715 (OP)
RTwP was a mistake. It was interesting at the time it came out, but nowadays it's irrelevant.

The best RTwP games are the ones with AI programming like
>DAO
>FF12
Sadly for some reason it's lost technology for RTwP devs

>>723723301
He is correct.

>>723722774
I feel like most of the combat design in bg3's combat is iteration from the innovations they made with Divinity OS2. Particularly the physics, interactivity of environments and the set piece encounters
The most impressive part of bg3's combat system is how they adapted 5e to not be so shit and did justice to most of the spells.

>>723723518
No, I think it's called a strawman.

>>723723457
>>723723573
>kingmaker
he is wrong

>>723713232
>mfw one of the bouncers misfire and it hits a hooker so the combat rounds triple as hookers and their pimps are now in it and stab the bouncers, the bouncers attack one of the gang members that had a misfireon them, the gang members attack me because I killed their boss, I'm moving like 10 squares as my only action in a turn because I was using unarmed and the crackheads spend their turns randomly fleeing from the whole thing with flailing arms like they were Kermit the Frog
One area in New Reno took me honest to God 30 minutes because of that shit

>>723723683
nope

BG3 turn-based combat is made for bottom of the barrell idiots, of course it is the most popular, not making games for retards in this day and age is just like leaving money on the street.

the only time rwtp feels tolerable is when the game has an intricate system allowing you to customize the AI's actions e.g. dragon age ff12. most rtwp games have barebones AI control leading to you either leaving the AI on and having to pause very other second to fix the AI's mistakes or turning the AI off and pausing the game every microsecond to micromanage every little thing.

>>723723301
>>723723683
He's correct and right.

Seriously am I the only one who thinks turn based combat is far too slow?

At least in BG3 combat was pretty sparse but Pillars has many trash mobs. Ain't nobody got time for that.

>>723722135
There's no romances in the game so it's hypothetical anyway.

>>723723683
Wotr and kingmaker are literally the same exact shit combat-wise lol
Didn't buy that one though because they fucked everyone over with dogshit buggy km release, and I was right in doing so. Never playing their games on launch ever agian.

>>723723863
>Easy shit for kids
>vs
>Get fucked, nerd

>>723723916
No, that's a popular opinion and why it appeals to smoothbrains.

>>723724037
That's the funniest part, the right one isn't hard. Who cares about the enemy having 75 AC when your prebuffed character will have 90? It's just lazy.

>>723714973
You don't have to care, but you should realize that you have only ever played one game and shouldn't make comparisons because of that.

>>723711631
So what's the point of trash enemy encounters? If they make you want to skip them why not remove them all together?

>>723723863
thx, always cheers me up

POE adding AI for companions was unironically a bigger game-changer than adding a turn-based mode. When POE came out you basically DID play in turn-based considering how many times you had to mash the spacebar to issue another round of "per combat actions"
meanwhile when the AI was introduced it allowed the player to automate all those obnoxious MMORPG-style actions every class had access to. The ranger who had to "Mark" an enemy 3 times a battle for an extra d6 damage? AUTOMATED. The warrior who could "trip" 3 times a battle? AUTOMATED. POE became a much smoother game when all of Sawyer's annoying WoW abilities were became AUTOMATED.

True, the Party AI couldn't perform meme tactics like the Minutemen party build where you had 6 bards all firing off muskets, changing to the offhand musket and firing again. And they were all singing, like rappers. That tactic was pretty funny but annoyingly time-consuming to perform.

>>723724201
To throw more loot at you and to brain hack you into thinking you're getting more stuff to do.

>>723710846
arcanum, son

>>723718216
>CP is also pretty notorious for it's combat being by far the worst part though
No it isn't.

I really hate when they adapt TB combat system in RTwP and player is the only one who can use its system at more or less full power. Like how in Pathfinder you can at any moment of time activate move that let you escape from close combat without getting hit. But enemy can't do that. Or Hexes, bombs, fast spells n shiet. It would be impossible for player to react if enemies had access for such options in RTwP. But in tabletop they have all tools.

>>723710990
No, they're all boring.

owlcats took a step in the right direction with their Pathfinders, but then they fell back into that step-by-step mold.

>>723723568
>AI programming
Is this when you make conditional statements and the PCs follow them? Also what is DAO?

>>723723916
The solution is so ridiculously simple it is insane how only a few developers remember to include it

>hit key
>animation fastforwarded/skipped just the results of the turn

>>723724201
The games in question were designed as RTWP first and turn based was retrofitted. For those games they just exist as a thing to find on the map to fill it out. Like a bit of gold in a log or whatever. Since the time invested in a trash combat in RTWP is low its not a big cost to sprinkle them all over. On the other hand they don't add a great deal either.

>>723724680
Yes. Dragon Age,

>complaining RTWP are auto battlers
>when the strongest strategies in BG3 are still basically just prebuff + auto attack (Phalar Aluve Shriek, Haste Pots on ground, Mass Healing Word with auto bless Ring etc. + Swords Bard multihit, dual Hand Crossbows etc.)

>>723717973
You can't give commands in Diablo 2 while being paused, you dingus.

>>723724908
That's just a problem with tabletop combat in general. The only thing keeping those systems in check is the DM not allowing the players to get away with that shit.

>>723710715 (OP)
Why do zoomers and normalfags hate RTWP?

>>723723301
He's right tho
I'd argue that it is not a bad thing and just a different kind of flavour, but still, it absolutely is legit critique

>Why do zoomers and normalfags hate RTWP?
RTWP is normalfagtrash. It was made in response to popularity of RTS when they were normalfagcore.

>>723724908
Who cares about "strongest strategies?" The game doesn't throw enemies with overinflated stats at you at every corner, just do what feels fun.
Also the actual strongest strategy is hat of fire accuity - scorching ray - upcast hold person/monster.

>>723725331
I dislike older rtwp games because it's just turn based combat but they turned it into busywork. The real time part also doesn't mean shit if I have to pause every 5 seconds to micromanage my guys so they don't act like mongoloids. More modern rtwp are fine though, mostly because you can customize your party members AI more thoroughly and just pause and issue orders if you need to change tactics.

>>723724985
me screeching loudly to myself is a command

This is what turn based fags think is fun

>>723725959
Kino.

>>723710990
DA:O as other have said, genuinely fantastic combat

>>723723737
You just gave me flashbacks to my long, drawn out casino shootout.

>>723724105
>That's the funniest part, the right one isn't hard.
lol
It's way harder than the left. I've got 500 hours in dos2 and pathfinder

>>723724201
Trash mobs do make you feel powerful.

>I have become death

>>723711378
It was at this moment that Soiyer knew he could never surpass the man.

>>723724343
Reminds me of the buff bot in Pathfinder.

>>723710715 (OP)
Is it a button like it's in km wotr or?

>>723724908
the strongest strategy is stealth sniper

>>723726552
killing powerful bosses and solving challenging encounters make you feel powerful

>>723713087
Good game design is 90% psychology my autistic friend.

Did they release PoE TB patch yet?

>>723710715 (OP)
>a shit game is getting a shit system popularized by an even shittier game
[Grim News]

>>723710715 (OP)
>a great game is getting a great system popularized by an even greatest game
[Great news]

>>723710715 (OP)
Good fucking riddance.

Games that have their encounter numbers based around turn based are fine, throwing it onto the pillars game that has tons of chaff means people will just go RTWP to roll over it anyway

>>723724343
Maybe it's big deal for mental midgets who play on lower difficulties mashing left click on enemies like it was a hack and slash arpg. The people who actually like crpgs and play on higher difficulties don't consider this a chore. They like issuing commands and having full control of the battle and companions.

>>723727202
>that has tons of chaff means people will just go RTWP to roll over it anyway
PoE barely had any combat encounters.

>>723725472
>ugh just do what feel FUN chud let people have heckin FUN the game is not supposed to be challenging or rewarding its supposed to be FUN
RPGs were killed by 5e, Critical Role and BG3 and its never coming back.

>TB players think that TB is superior because that means you don't have to fight as much
huh?

>>723727401
They don't want to actually play the game, they want to have gay sex with bears and have wholesome dialogues about validating their genders with goblins, they treat rpgs as group therapy sessions

>>723725959
can i get some more pixels on that
also doesn't BG3 have a "multiple things can move and act at once" thing
or was that for co-op players only

>>723727401
nice strawman, it means the fights are more interesting and complex, you have shit for brains so you want to feel "le powerful" be trashing weak mobs

>>723727401
>I like gameplay that's why I want it to be over as fast as possible with autobattler and weak enemies that don't make me think
huh?

>>723727501
Back to /pol/ gay sex obsessed anon

Poor RTwPkek...can't get (You)s.

>>723727601
You mean like >>723725959 ?

>gets a turn based mode
>likely means that dexterity becomes a dump stat
>will most likely break several classes like monk too since now they can't make several attacks per round
>will supercharge ciphers and gunners further

>>723727601
>the fights are more interesting and complex
always funny when the larian tourist tries that line

>>723714172
Retard.

>TB
>boss encounter feels dramatic, each movement is meaningful, each dice roll is intense
>RT
>encounter is already decided by your build an prebuffs
>few seconds in the outcome is already decided, you may have to pause once to save a character that got an unlucky roll

>>723714976

I doubt it since in Sawyer's case it's because he's a homosexual and straight romances disgust him but he can't justify only having gay ones.

There's literally no advantage in TB except it's easier and slower.
RTwP is just TB where things happen at once, that's why zoomzooms hate it

>>723727863
Looks fun, something you won't see in RTwP autism

>>723727914
>each movement is meaningful, each dice roll is intense

TB
>entire game is just cheesing and barely playing the game
RTwP
>you actually play the game and can enjoy it without cheesing everything

>>723727792
>likely means that dexterity becomes a dump stat
Why? It's not true in PoE2. Initiative is important.

>>723727972
>lmfao bruh he just let me place half a dozen explosive barrels around him while he watched so intense and dramatic frfr nocap

rtwpkeks really are mad that their shitty game mode is dead forever LOL

>>723710715 (OP)
RTWP was a mistake from the very start and the only reason it lasted this long was because it was a mistake attached to some otherwise good games. not only is TB better for a video game, it's a better representation of tabletop combat in the first place. RTWP really has no reason to exist

>>723728110
>lmfao bruh he just let me place half a dozen explosive barrels around him
YES

rtwpkek is so desperate

>larian tourists have to pretend pillars 1 is a good game now
absolute kek

>play a dungeon and dragons game
>the entire thing that was built around dungeon crawling and fighting lots of monsters
>TB fans that hate fighting and playing the game will say that TB is the true vision of this
????

>>723711378
>single handedly brought back turn-based RPGs
Fuck Swen.

>>723728270
But it is a good game tho. Better than owlslop

>>723713532
I literally have zero problem with no romances, but the lack of romance needs to make sense.
RPGs where you play therapist, friend and bodyguard to your companions, where you hear their stories and help them with their shit, where you develop a bond and may even have an actual approval rating suddenly drawing an arbitrary like at me boning them is the stupidest shit ever.
Sawyer thinks romances are wish fulfillment and irrealist in nature because it's unlocking sex and love with a few dialogue and gameplay clicks. Fine. But don't reduce friendships like that and pretend that's deep writing
Put a layer of distance between the player and everyone else in a way that makes sense instead of just erecting a barrier that suddenly decides that a penis touching a vagina is too much

>>723728297
>play a dungeon and dragons game
Yes, I want to play dungeon and dragons (turn based game) not some RTwP slop pretending to be one.

>>723728169
Indeed.
Good games and talent and creativity in the industry is dead.

>>723714781
Actually Larian certainly tried to translate D&D 5E rules to Divinity Original Sin 3 and had to tone down all the barrelmancy because of fans complaining during early access.

>>723728379
if its the second RPG you ever played like its the case for larianzooms it must be

>>723728379
>Better than owlslop
its not a high bar. Liquid shit is better than owlslop.

>>723728297
dungeons and dragons is turn based already, what are you talking about

>>723710976
>>723710976
>>723710976
>>723710976

>>723727389
>just do what feel FUN
Yeah, that's what I said. Don't know what the rest of your spergout is about.

>>723728441
>turn based game
Lol no
> I want to play dungeon and dragons
Then do so, in the tabletop
I want a good game, so no TB

Hi /crpgg/

>>723728391
>Sawyer thinks romances are wish fulfillment and irrealist in nature because it's unlocking sex and love with a few dialogue and gameplay clicks. Fine. But don't reduce friendships like that and pretend that's deep writing
Hell a proper romance arc can span the entire game before it even hints at anything sex related happening at all, maybe until the epilogue. Aerie in BG2 goes through a fuck huge depression arc, realizes she loves adventuring, and only then falls for you.

>>723728525
>Lol no
brainlet

>>723711702
it's really not such a big issue when a game offers you c.c skills, which bg3 does abundantly. particularly with illithid powers.

>>723727389
What a disgusting picture
Out of all the nerd properties looted and explored by companies to sell to normalfags and promote homosexuality and degeneracy none have suffered like DnD
And it was so quick too. I warned those cucks at /tg/ but they didn't listen.

>>723711514
The actual system's potential strength is making the players account for the fact that multiple enemies and units can move together at the same time. And you need dynamic prediction of how to maneuver, especially if you need complex movement/pathing to achieve certain goals.

Unfortunately for games, of enemy AIs are often rudimentary Leeory Jenkins types that just rushes you instead of doing any complex or sneaky maneuvers.
You know something is wrong, when fucking FPS games have enemies with far more tactics.

>"turn-based is just better and more strategic!"
>look inside
>actual complaints are "it's too confusing, I have to actually pay attention to what every enemy is doing, I have to pick between six different characters to best counter it instead of just being handed whichever nigga is next in turn order"

>>723728578
Stop signing your posts

>>723710715 (OP)
Fun fact: the console version had turn based and people where kind of pissed the pc didnt get the patch. Took them long enough.
>but muh turn based and real cringe
Its so people can play it on steamdecks etc

>>723728652
The fun of TTRPGs anon is that you can make your own worlds! You don’t need gay tieflings in yours so you don’t have to get mad that someone has it in theirs.

>>723716035
This sounds about right. RtwP sounds like it would be nice in a game squad based tactics plus it doesn't have the HP inflation.

>>723728549
Yeah, obviously it maybe not enough dialogue to compare to building an actual relationship, but who gives a fuck, it's a simulation, a game. Nobody cares that yo don't need to spend 4000 hours learning how to swing a sword to become a master.
That's why his complaints about romance fall flat, he's putting a threshold to it that he doesn't for literally anything else in a game

>>723728731
zoomers need turn based so they can take their ADHD breaks in between turns to watch tiktok and dilate

>>723713532
>fuck romance niggers
No romance = no buy.
>>723728391
>the lack of romance needs to make sense.
It makes no sense most of the time tho. Sawyer is gay and his "wish fulfillment and irrealist in nature" is a bullshit. He's just embraced to write romances. They're part of our world. The same world where you can be mocked for being virgin or being single by normal people of both gender. It would function same in fantasy world. Or even worse.
>female companions are making fun of your MC because he has no gf

>>723728853
>You don’t need gay tieflings in yours so you don’t have to get mad that someone has it in theirs.
I can because that's what the company is promoting and supporting.
The whole "just don't care about all the pozzed garbage because you can make your own" is just marginally less nonsensical than "just play old games".

>>723727312
What a weird fucking thing to lie about. Combat is virtually the only content in that shitty game.

>>723724908
>but what about some tryhard meta shit that I looked up
The issue with RTWP is that it sucks, even if you play like an actual human being.

>>723729068
>What a weird fucking thing to lie about
It's not a lie.

>>723728391
>RPGs where you play therapist, friend and bodyguard to your companions
Just reading this disgusts me. What kind of emasculated onions juice sipping faggot do you have to be to enjoy this shit?

>>723729240
every CRPG has that

>>723729208
Yes it is. Do you think we haven't played that piece of shit? You wade knee-deep in corpses through it.

>>723729240
That's basically every RPG
Are you twelve?

>>723714090
That's a feature of poorly balanced game. Especially if the enemy AI is barebone as fuck (especially if their only action is moving towards the player)

>>723729394
>Yes it is.
No. The game isn't typical dungeon crawler. Only in White March you have a lot combat encounters. Fact

>>723728391
>Sawyer thinks romances are wish fulfillment

This is the most retarded hangup of all. ALL RPGS ARE WISH FULFILLMENT. That is their point. In fact most games of any genre are wish fulfillment. No one plays games to be unfulfilled, unsatisfied and miserable.

>>723710715 (OP)
rtwp sucks, thoughbeit
Imagine combining the worst traits of both turn based and real-time games.

>>723729487

You're lying and retarded. POE has almost constant combat. Fact.

>>723728391
>Fine.
No, it is not "fine". That's the most unrealistic shit in any rpg game. I can believe in magic. I can believe in dragons. I can believe in women warriors. But girls not falling for a hero - that's where I draw the line. This shit is unbelievable, it's so far on "believe" spectrum, it fucks up suspension of disbelief.

>>723715457
>And I'm replaying KOTOR 2 right now, its still really fun but so annoying when a companion decides to run through mines or go aggro the next group of enemies by themself.

Your issue is that game doesn't have RTS controls. the mine/aggro problem is also seen in BG3 thanks to the party chain system. Way too often you roll to detect a trap only for your party to immediately trigger the trap

>>723729570
Some normalfags fear romances because they self-insert so hard they think it's cheating on their gf or wife.

>>723729570
>>723729712
That's my point, anons.

>>723729656
>POE has almost constant combat
Wrong. Math is on my side.

>>723717225
That's more of a problem with game balance/design. In a system with actual commitment, your character's can't change the action during the round/time-frame and the game wouldn't allow any animation canceling cheese.

RTwPkeks lost again.

>>723710715 (OP)
I thought it was unanimously agreed that RTwP sucks?

>>723730435
Only by the gays.