Thread 724489834

What happened to MMOs?

Virtually nothing whatsoever, wouldn't you agree

Infinite market expansion means that games will never be made for their intended audience anymore. It’s so expensive and takes so long to make a game. Fighting game players will never get another fighting game made for them anymore, Monster Hunter fans will never receive another Monster Hunter game catering to them, and MMO’s will never cater to mmo fans.
The big thing about MMO’s specifically is that they’ve been cannibalized by live service games and gachas while being unable to keep up with normalfag expectations for content. The average mmo isn’t competing with just other MMO’s but also shit like Genshin Impact and non-games like TikTok because there’s all this shit that monopolizes people’s time for much cheaper than an mmo and can shovel out slop much faster.
It’s why FFXIV is failing so rapidly and WoW is now a seasonal game.

>>724489834 (OP)
trannies

Every time, the same thing.
game comes out -> people are having fun -> sweatsters get to the endgame as quick as possible -> run out of shit to do -> demand more content -> devs cant possibly develop fast enough -> just make it grindy as shit -> the bulk of the userbase gets bored and quit -> cant afford server costs -> just add MTX for the few whales until it dies

World Persistence turned into Sanitized Theme Parks and no one complained.

>>724490259
>Fighting game players will never get another fighting game made for them anymore
What the fuck are you talking about. Fighting games are only made to for hardcore fighting game players and it's a constant problem that new people can't get into it because they have systems upon systems upon systems upon systems upon systems that expects decades of muscle memory and experience of the basics dating back to SF2, and if you don't have any of these well you are shit out of luck because the only people who play these games are people who have been playing them for decades, and any time developers try to tone down on the mechanics bloat and insane execution barrier to do even the most basic shit, you have any army of fucking retards constantly and incessantly screaming that hurr durr they dumbed down for the causal audence, but at the same time they are crying that their genre dies in 1 fucking week unless your game is called Street Fighter or Tekken. God, fighting game players are the most annoying retarded disgusting player base on the planet and that is saying a lot considering the Sonic fanbase exists.

MMOs were killed by QoL and convenience features.

>>724489834 (OP)
They still exist but now there’s a lot of f2p and gacha games. Why the hell do I need to pay for an mmo subscription and still have to do shitty dailies?

>>724489834 (OP)
Nothing. They were always games for the lowest subhumans society has to offer. Retards, schizos, illterate nitwits, and many more, MMOfags have always been the bottom of the barrel. Trannies just brought along a shovel.

MMOs were never good. Horrible genre played by nerds who didn't know any better, got addicted, and now try to relive those "glory" days

>>724489834 (OP)
They made less money than GAAS.

>>724489834 (OP)
Nothing, unironically. WoW was king, WoW is still king.

got replaced by social media and multiplayer games with better gameplay
the only thing that made MMOs successful was being a chat room + game before it was commonplace

Ruined by bots

>>724490467
Bioware tried to change this with making an MMO that actually has a story.

>>724489834 (OP)
This guy actually has a kid.

>>724492061
But MP went to shit long time ago. Do you really want to play multi with zooms and Agen?

everything became a WoW derivative while every other genre in existence continued to try something new and different

>>724491679
Warcraft actually had normies playing it for a while but in general you're not wrong.

>>724492296
>normies
It's called normalfag and WoW has ALWAYS been a normalfag game, it was the equivalent of Fortnite back in the days.

>>724489834 (OP)
Widespread Internet access and hyper-autistic discord optimization.

Yes, thottbot and other forums/wikis existed back then but the degree of information back then is still minuscule compared to the dissertation length guides and spreadsheets telling you how to play down to every individual server tick.

Not really something that can be fixed unfortunately.

>>724489834 (OP)
Trannies, American retardation, Discord, Brazilians and Sea niggers killed this genre.

>>724491073
fighting games are not played much because they only appeal to browns and whitetrash retards

>>724489834 (OP)
Went from niche little alternate life simulators to trying to appeal to the most broadest range of users possible themeparks with MTX up the ass to boot since it's all about profit these days instead of general networking. Also add in the fact that modern players have too much fear and anxiety to socialize and the game systems have been dumbed down so everyone can be a winner pretty much and play what used to be a social genre solo just as successful on their own as they could with a group and yeah, genre is in a horrible place these days.

Don't you have shit like Rust, ARK or Conan Exiles aka mmo lite?

>>724489834 (OP)
They were originally made by D&D nerds who wanted an immersive 3D persistant online version of their tabletop campaigns where they get to play as dungeon masters to thousands of players world wide

Then WOW came out, got popular, and drew the eye of Sauron, and every MMO since has been an overbudgeted, overinvested, bloated, waste of time WOW clone that didn't understand what makes MMOs good in the first place so you end up with "MMOs" with wierd instancing and phasing mechanics that have smaler player caps than a battlefield 1942 server

If your "MMO" is designed entirely around dungeons/raids with less players than a fucking TF2 2fort server, its not an MMO.

>>724489834 (OP)
1. technology developed. MMO's gimmick of having dozens if not hundreds of people in the same place became an industry standard. meanwhile MMOs keep making their content smaller and smaller scale player-wise (the first M stands for massively btw)
2. normalcattle invaded the internet; an internet stranger is most likely to be a retard who wants to blogpost about his job and family and real life rather than a fellow nerd who just wants to play vidya. this kill socialization
3. overmonetization. box price + sub fee isn't enough to please the suits any more, they have to poison the game on purpose to sell you the antidote, or cut off the best looking aesthetics from in-game sources to put them in the e-shop instead. some even do this using lootboxes.
4. cultist and tribalistic behavior means a promising nascent MMO will likely die because everyone else has already sunk 10+ years of their life into the old one (biggest offenders are blizzdrones and xivvies)
there's more reasons i'm sure but these are the main ones

>boring and janky gameplay
>greedy and lazy devs
>story and lore is shit
its always one of these three things or a combination of them

>>724492585
I don't like first-person-shooters. Give me high-fantasy Rust with tab-target combat. VRising gets close.

>>724490259
I agree about everything except for the fighting game part. Everything else is 100%

Moos are only good when there's a large number of players that aren't familiar with them to draw on. Once the poopsocking machine permeates players approach to them there's no point.

>>724489834 (OP)
A group of people make playing the game their entire life or even career and developers cater to these people instead of the normal player base.

It was fun when it was novel, and the internet was novel, and people being on the internet was novel.
It's done now.

>>724493721
But enough about Fighting- and RTS games.

>>724493490
This. Thankfully as a huge WC3 fan my laptop couldn't play WoW. Its why I've stayed away from MMO and GAAS since.

>>724489834 (OP)
Industry wide brain drain, very few people have the technical skill or desire to make an MMO scale game anymore, which is why every modern MMO does everything it can to get rid of the "Massively" from "Massively Multiplayer"

The original generation of MMOs were made by gaming pioneers pushing technology over 20 years. Ultima Online was always an idea of Lord British to make an online version of D&D, "Multima" they called it, and eventually they did, Everquest was made by guys who already made and managed MUDs for years, And WOW was made by D&D nerds who built their universe over the course of a decade, while spending 5 years optimizing their online netcode for games like Warcraft 3 and Diablo 2.

The current state of the industry is mostly full of people with 'game dev' degrees where they only really learned how to make asset flips in Game Maker Studio, Unity, or Unreal 5, and anyone who could code a game engine from scratch at the same technical level as an MMO from 20 years ago could go into any other tech sector and 10x their income.

>>724493490
op pic would be an improvement

>>724493795
I feel this in my bones.

>>724492209
>This guy actually has a ki-AAACK

>>724492801
>meanwhile MMOs keep making their content smaller and smaller scale player-wise (the first M stands for massively btw)
This is definitely a major point. Like M+ content is exalted by WoW players but it's just instanced 5 mans and (at the most) 25 man content. Most of the major, defining events in MMOs are server wide madness and community-driven memeing like Corrupted Blood or pulling world bosses in capitals. MMOs have been so corrupted and restained that the people playing them shudder at the idea of the community ever doing something that actually inconveniences them. MMOs used to be defined by that limited instance, interconnected world that was trying to be DnD but in real time. Nowadays fucking Guild Wars 1 is less instanced and cut off and that was a game famous for being instance-design focused.

Point 4 is how you guarantee that we'll need an MMO-like that still understands to first M before we ever see the genre actually evolve and leave WoW and FF behind.

>>724493968
>Andrea del Verrocchio

>>724492801
This sums it up pretty well

>>724494349
...is this actual OC from 4chan?

>>724494302
This is why I stick to EVE, until something better comes along EVE is the only game that still does community driven gameplay even if its got a massive boxing/botting problem.

Even the story is community driven with lore events requiring players to solve puzzles and shit.

Instead of WoW my first and for a long time only MMORPG was Ragnarok Online

>>724489834 (OP)
Nothing. Play EVE, OSRS or Albion.

>>724489834 (OP)
Other genres kept innovating, while every MMO just wanted to be WoW

Black Desert Online is still the only MMORPG with a proper open world and mechanics.

>>724494349
This picture sums up pretty much everything now

>>724489834 (OP)
It died because they stopped giving what the players want

Solo is the way to go.
>have to afk for a few hours
>group still standing around when you get back and ready to grind

>>724489834 (OP)
They peaked in 2009

>>724490259
you couldnt be more wrong. wow classic showed us that the mmos have changed and not the players. all the old players came back to play classic wow, while modern retail wow can barely fill a server.

>>724494718
And then got megacucked by crimson desert lol

>>724492209
everyone from original blizzard has been a multimillionaire for decades and women absolutely love money and will do anything for money.

>>724495274
This!
That's why Piratesoftware is such a chad and made it everywhere

>>724489834 (OP)
>MMOs when i started playing
>>wow anon has cool gear where do you get that helmet?
>>dude i thought cleric tanks were shit in dungeons, but you made that look easy!
>>healer mvp. pls add me to friends so we can run more later

>MMOs now
>>o/
>>gg

>>724489834 (OP)
Unironically nothing just look at your pic it was the fat incel genre and still is the fat incel genre, it lives it’s in own little retard world

>>724495469
More like
>MMOs now
>push button, get dungeon
>tank solos the dungeon
>no one talks

>>724495469
>wow anon has cool gear where do you get that helmet?
>dude i thought cleric tanks were shit in dungeons, but you made that look easy!
>healer mvp. pls add me to friends so we can run more later
That's only because you were a kid when you first played WoW and most other players were kids. And even then most of the players were still shitheads

>>724495469
datamining and guides ruined mmos

>>724492202
and nobody liked that

>>724494302
wow mostly declined because blizzard wasnt and still isnt able to admit mistakes. all they always do is always right and correct and the players love it and if you cant see that you get the patronizing "you think you do but you dont" and "dont you have phones" paroles. during cata they should have closed the ghost servers and stopped that phasing and layering bullshit. also ions focus on raids really drove all the normies away and left wow with elitist jerks and absolute retarded casuals that barely can do raidfinder. everything collapsed during cata.

>>724495469
>retarded kid playing video game for the first time and asking retarded questions
>>724495594
This. Imagine still wanting to larp like a kid.

>>724489834 (OP)
MMOs live off of players obsessed with grinding to see number go up. nowadays nearly every online multiplayer game has some form of tedious grind baked into them, whether it be grinding for levels, skins or rank.
the "killer feature" of MMOs isn't exclusive to them anymore.

>>724495760
Wow was never an actual thing it was an industry plant whistleblown in the fucking Snowden leak, with smartphones it became unnecessary

>>724495971
I can actually belive this considering it was shilled by fucking hollywood(jews)

>>724495165
You mean classic players came back for a season then left for other things.

>>724495469
>wow anon has cool gear where do you get that helmet?
go look it up on obligatory designated game wiki
>dude i thought cleric tanks were shit in dungeons, but you made that look easy!
go look up cleric guides on the cleric discord
>healer mvp. pls add me to friends so we can run more later
fuck off retard i already have two dozen "friends" who only remember i exist when their party needs a healer

you're part of the problem.

>>724495594
>That's only because you were a kid wh
NO the same stuff happened in wow classic even though everybody was in their 30s there, the same interactions like back in the day happened. we even had a real life guild meeting just like back then in 2006.

>>724491073
>Fighting games are only made to for hardcore fighting game players
Every single fighting game nowadays comes out with simplified controls, party mechanics to appeal to "wider audiences", are hyper aggressive to make e-sports look more exciting for casuals and homogenize character toolsets to make things more accessible. When a game comes out without any graphics bells and whistles and tries to cater to complaints from the FGC like a lack of defensive gameplay or execution, like with: UNI2, Fatal Fury or the VF5 re-release, it flops.

>>724495594
>>724495903
What's crazy is I never even played WoW.

>>724495165
>wow classic showed us that the mmos have changed and not the players.
Yeah man you totally don't have people throwing autistic fits over not having the BiS gear and all the world buffs for fucking MC so that the bosses will die in 30 seconds instead of a minute, that shit was the norm back in 2005

>>724496278
>NO the same stuff happened in wow classic
Not it didn't, lmao it was more like >>724495903

>>724496119
>for a season then left for other things.
nah it went for the entirety of vanilla to wotlk, roughly 3 years, then again cata classic was when most people left again. naxx classic and t5, t6 in burning crusade as well as the ulduar hard modes were hard stops for casuals though, yeah i admit that.

>>724490259
I bet the next monster Hunter will be another rise style game that's not global focused and is instead designed primarily for Japanese players.

The MMO genre is more popular than ever with over 30 million people playing Final Fantasy XIV: Dawntrail. FFXIV is the fifth most-popular online game in the world. Keep seething, Blizzdrone. We won’t forget how you treated women.

>>724496690
xiv is not an mmo

A whole bunch of shit at the same time
>WoW caught the zeitgeist and pretty much torpedoed any chance of a new MMO being anything REMOTELY original because publishers wanted a piece of that multi-milly user base despite the overwhelming majority of them not actually being typical MMO players
>the proliferation of the internet caused a shitload of online gaming in general, and smart phones and the apps on them caused a renaissance in social media, giving internet dwellers alternate places to socialize
>free to play models surged player counts but tanked revenue streams, subfee games became a risky investment because there were a glut of games with zero buy-in to compete with
>tech advancements in graphics and storage made games look better but become considerably more expensive and complex to create, making publishers scared of taking chances on riskier properties, so safe slop became the norm (this is in all games, not just MMOs, and movies and tv as well)
In short, a game came out that was so fucking insanely popular everyone tried to ape it, and if you didnt do WoW numbers you were considered a failure, but it wasnt popular because of its game style, it was popular because all your friends played, Then it became easier to just hang out online with your friends in other games or just other shit in general, and then the rising cost of game development and the f2p business model made it next to impossible to make something that didnt already have a previously installed user base (ie final fantasy, the new big swinging dick). Also now that so many people cut their MMO teeth on wow, they go to a new game (even non-mmo online tites) expecting WoW style gamneplay, where "endgame" is the actual place you want to be and constantly get drip fed content.

>>724489834 (OP)
OSRS won, simple as.

>>724496394
if you raided back then then yes, it was serious business in 2005 already. but in vanilla and classic leveling was the main content of the game, you would spend most of your time leveling even as a raider and you could have fun while not raiding seriously. i didnt play on a pvp server though, so the other faction was irrelevant.

>>724495469
>>724495594
I started playing ESO this very year and I've had dozens of both types of interactions. Low level players are curious and chatty while veteran content sweats tend to be aloof and prone to hissy fits when things don't go their way.

>>724489834 (OP)
come play ccro with the rest of us on /vg/
guild name is pools closed, ask anyone in town for an invite

>>724491293
This plus discord is the real answer

>>724496690
Blizzcucks figuring out genshin existed last year was really really funny

>>724495903
This pic is so real it fucking hurts
>t. purple parse warrior stuck in guild like the bottom part
>still had a ton of fun anyways because I didn't have a stick up my ass about it and they let me raid as arms so i could grind rank 14 without constant respecs

>>724492202
>lets just make it shitty kotor with story scenes that have the production value of a fan mod made inside of our knockoff world of warcraft

They all tried to be a "WoW killer" and failed.

>>724497459
dont know about eso but in vanilla wow you had to team up for almost everything, even in the starter areas and fights were slow, so you were forced to interact with other people and the game actually gave you the time to interact with them, because everything was super slow. in modern wow everything is a hectic race and unless you do the most highest tier of end game content you dont ever need to team up with anybody, the movement and fights are super fast so even if you wanted to chat or talk to someone, there is no time for that. you really only start to actually hear people again or chat when you go into heroic rading and really high mythic keys. it has become basically a single player game with some multiplayer at the very elite top that you only get to after autistically reading and memorizing every guide and having mastered all the easier modes that you did basically solo without any interaction for hundreds of hours. modern wow is very niche for a very good reason.

>>724495469
top still happens in classic wow. turns out when the game is designed around needing help from others and being unable to do much solo, social interaction happens.
it's not a community issue but a game design issue. all MMOs today are designed to be played entirely solo and with matchmaking for group content. this kills social interaction

Im more hyped for fucking Maplestory Classic than just about any MMO. Its sad an old 2D MMO is generating more hype than anything else released recently. Aion 2 must be flopping internally because the hype for that is not there.

>>724497660
Yeah. Anons always pretend "MMO ruined by minmax sweats hurr wikis duuur" when in reality it takes 0 effort to find mouth breather guild clan whatever. And suddenly they don't want to be among "retards". Back in old day I was a kid and WoW was the first big real MMO. My guilds were "Wife Aggro" tier and I had fun. Kids have same fun too now. Even EVE is full of new players asking questions in official help chat, alliance chat, standinf fleet chat and corp voice chats.

>>724497887
They all tried to be a WOW killer by copying WOTLK, and WOTLK already killed WOW, people only stuck around for the Lich King, which was something other MMOs didn't have

>>724497943
Classic has enough friction that players prefer to play in a group than solo, most MMOs it would take more time to find a group to do stuff with than to actually just go do it, which is why they all fail to build guilds and communities, they're just over engineered gacha games at that point, except instead of gambling for a waifu you're gambling for a stat stick

>>724497459
i've never chatted with another player when I played ESO. I never did high level content but nobody in the open world acknowledges you and leveling dungeons were just 5mn autistic rushes into leaving without a single word.
this is a textbook example of solo MMO, I wonder how you got social interaction

>>724498194
What are your goals for release version job and lvlwise?

>>724498352
did you ever actually try talking to anyone or were you waiting silently for someone to reach out to you like a retarded autist?

>>724498194
Maplestory was one of the slop ones you played when mom couldn't pay ur sub that month.
The faux nostalgia uncs have for it is so fake.

>>724498352
>I wonder how you got social interaction
I remember ESO console version had open voice chat. Played a little. I have seen PVP streams and people did talk in chat too.

>>724498378
Actually get to 3rd job because the farthest I made it to was level 61 originally because my dogshit laptop wasn't good and I had issues with the arrow keys. I want to at least make it to the level 100+ areas. I have the grind autism in me because I was able to play Aion to max level and Trickster online I hit over 100 in its vanilla era.

>This MMORPG sucks because its too much like WoW
>This MMORPG sucks because it's not enough like WoW
there I summed up why normalfags dont like MMORPGs

>>724498548
Which class are you rolling though?

>>724489834 (OP)
trannies and sodomites

>>724498194
>not out until next year
meh

>>724498459
the game never required me to search for other players up to max level except for dungeons which as I said were mute autistic rushes. so no, I never initiated it, and nobody did either, and that's my whole point.
in classic wow you have to speak to others and I have dozens if not hundreds of interactions on the way to 60.

>>724495737
True MMO players are just autismos who want to do repetitive tasks.

>>724498579
>josh strife gayes

>>724498241
I always had more fun playing with people who were objectively shit at the game than I did with people who were sweatlords. People love to minmax the fun out of games, but like...you can find other people who maybe aren't quite as good or care quite as much about being 100%, which will enrich your gaming experience

Now I'm somehow getting nostalgic for covid lockdown pvp grinds...fuck that was awful. I did probably 80-90% of my ranking experience solo or with maybe 1 or 2 other guys. I got pretty damn good at the game but I was wholly miserable the last month and change of the grind to High Warlord.

>>724490467
>just make it grindy as shit
I actually like mindless grindy shit. Most modern MMOs do dailies instead to try and balance the power difference between casuals and tryhards, and that's a deal breaker for me

>>724489834 (OP)
mmorpgs are such a garbage games only redeeming quality those had was socializing. Since Zoomers aren't social and millenials who still playing these have became a mental case faggots this game design died.

>>724498649
Probably Crossbowman again but Im debating on picking up warrior/fighter as that was my original class I just was retarded at the time and didnt go STR when I should have. Warrior is getting crit this time so they might actually be worth going. Fighter/Crusader or Crossbowman/Marksman. It's a tough choice

>>724498958
Grinding with a goal is chill, not sure why people think grinding = bad.

Its when your grinds have no goal and you're just doing daily chores because its optimal/mandatory.

I spent hours farming in old MMOs to save up for better gear, mount, bags, ect, now you just log in to do your dailies and log out, at which point why the fuck am I bothering to log in if its just to do fucking dailies

Dilution in common culture. Early 2000s, you at least had a lot in common with the kinds of people with an internet connection, but thousands of opportunities to find and create enclaves of unique interests. Even early WoW was still moderated from time to time for foul language and harassment, but a hundred times more lax than the absolute nannying situation today. You paid a monthly fee, and got a pretty cool game to hangout in before and after college courses.

Now those places are lame and gay, and filled with low IQ individuals from across the entire globe, and you are better off playing the cheaper or free alternatives of games played among a smaller number of friends instead of wasting your time wading through textbook definition retards and chinese cheaters. You are more likely to meet a relatable person by randomly walking into the shittiest dive bar you can imagine in the poorest part of town you know, than you are with the absolute cretins that shit up the internet now.

but to answer your question, i don't know because I haven't played an mmo since planetside 2 lol

>>724499125
Im definitely going warrior>fighter at this rate. Warriors had a new +50 accuracy passive on the beta demo at maplecon last week so going dexless/very low dex as an unfunded main seems possible. No minimum range on the archers types seems very chill though.

>>724489834 (OP)
More players than ever spread out over more games.

MMOs have had no substantial changes except incorporating live-service features like dailys, Battle Passes, and Premium currencies.
From my experience the draw of MMOs has always been social features, dungeons/raids, and flaunting accomplishments. Social Media, Twitch, Discord, fotm friend games have overtaken the social aspect. League of Legends, Counters Strike, and other E-sports centric games have taken over the competitive scene. All that's really left is raiding, but MMO gameplay is just not good enough to draw people in anymore.

>>724498872
you had to minmax if you wanted to clear naxx and sunwell. the game just wasnt well balanced for these final raids, they are super hard if you dont have the right raid composition. you cant go in there with people who dont have roughly the best gear in the game up to that point and a profound knowing of what they are doing. also raiding with elitist sweats is actually less time consuming and tedious, because the sweaties clear the raid during the first id in 4 hours while the the mid guilds will progress for weeks doing 2 raid days per week each session lasting 4 hours. and the casual guilds will just break apart after a weeks of not being able to progress past a certain boss. the 20st wipe on a boss is usually when guilds disband. so if you want to play comfy and without drama you need to stick to sweaty elitists who analyze every run on the logs and call each other out on even minor mistakes.

The downfall is simple.
>Focus more on instanced content than open world
>Made everything matchmade and automated
>Excess microtransactions even in sub fee games
>Design around rushing to max level endgame content instead of 'the journey'. Even selling players level boosts.
>Not cracking down hard enough on RMT

>>724499915
I forgot one more thing
>Everything is datamined and pasted on wiki sites before patches even launch so everyone can minmax the fun out of it

Only first MMOs like Ultima and EQ were decent

>>724500031
For me it was Tibia, before the BRs took over

>>724499527
They may have reworked accuracy so the ratings might be misguiding people. Not sure, but if 50 accuracy works with the old system then thats like 60dex. But if they reworked the numbers 50 accuracy could be paltry if anything was changed. Im not sure, I do think they are going to be much more viable. Crusader was always a solo class though so they werent that popular but with the HP buffs and the hyper body nerf I could see them being more viable. Crossbowman was buffed across the board though so I think they may be worth going as well. Range was always strong in Maplestory.

>>724499732
Yeah you're not wrong with that assessment about Naxx and like the back half of AQ. And while my shitter guild never made it past loatheb and was eventually broken by attrition, the majority of the time played with them was fun. I think you just gotta match your expectations with the people you choose to play with. Want to clear everything and get in get out without any issues? Roll with the sweats. Want to do your thing and get most of the content down without 20 assholes breathing down your neck about every single micromistake? Roll with the casul scum. For most of classic my guild did just fine. We just started having problems when we were losing geared players to poaching/attrition in the second half of the AQ phase. Our server was dying and there simply wasn't a wellspring of geared, decent players to replace the people we lost. I personally was basically set for gear because I had the r12 and r13 armor sets+Bonereavers Edge, but most people really needed stuff from AQ and even key pieces from BWL.

Also, Naxx 40 was an objectively unfun and poorly optimized raid and I'm tired of pretending it wasn't. Its interesting from a vanilla raiding design perspective since it incorporated every aspect of previous raiding tiers, but i think its inaccessibility is a direct result of those baseline design decisions.

I had bizarre MMO style adventures in EVE last year Winter Nexus event. Basically you have very profitable dungeons spawn in null (alliance owned space) and low sec (pirate space). And the most $$$ come from low sec space which is under control of pirate groups who fight each other for control of those systems. Game gives you teleportation item that randomly drops you into low sec or null sec if you want. It was peak Odyssey. Lost 3 battleships 700mil worth and made ~18bils. Somehow ended up in chinese fleet killing other chinese (FRT) event farmers and I didn't even speak chinese. People spammed anti-china 4chan pasta in global chat and I have seen anti-US 4chan edit once from chinks. I doubt you can this level of kino in any other MMO

>>724492638
The way I see it you make an MMO to have players interacting with a persistent world, except the problem with that is that people gravitate to the good spots to do anything, which then makes the game unplayable because the poop sockers and botters control all the fun stuff, so you start cordoning stuff off so people can actually play the game, but then the world becomes basically a sandbox game with multiplayer elements.

Anyone with half a brain jumped on the live service train because you can give players the same experience of joining a jumble of players and playing a game without having to spend all that money developing and maintaining a persistent world.

>>724500617
A guild being able to go from nothing to Naxx is an accomplishment in Vanilla wow, unless you were poaching AQ40 players to begin with. In actual Vanilla most guilds stayed spinning their wheels at whatever raid tier the founding players were at and people cycled in and out through poaching players and then having their geared players either get poached or just quit in frustration to find a higher tier guild because they would be ready for it long before the whole raid was geared enough and skilled enough.

>>724489834 (OP)
There's something fundamentally wrong with the genre that attracts the most sociopathic and bloodthirsty nerds.

>>724501574
kinda funny how a social genre attracts the most anti-social people

>>724501212
>people gravitate towards the good spots
This is why you don't have good spots, its why open world theme parks eventually become Everquest or WOW, in EQ one guild owns all the end game content because they poopsock, or you have WOW where everything becomes instanced to the point you might as well make a different game entirely.

If you want a good MMO, you need to have content seed itself dynamically across a large shared space that is designed so players do bump elbows, but aren't able to hard camp the best loot.

Its why the holy grail of next gen MMOs is some form of dynamic world system where content reseeds itself dynamically while still having the quality of a themepark MMO.

>>724501689
>The only genre that lets players attack other players in a sandbox setting
>"Wow these games are so anti-social"
What kind of faggot logic is this, its like getting mad that First Person Shooters have players who like shooting guns at each other, or RTS games have players use their units to destroy your Sim City

>>724489834 (OP)
nothing, they're working as intended
but live service games of any genre can only grow so much by their very nature

>>724501972
you're one of those people, aren't you anon?

>>724501972
I'm mostly talking about the big two theme park MMOs.

>>724502181
Oh, thats due to PVE competition.

People have to fight for the limited group/raid slots available in competent dungeon grous that breeds a retarded sense of elitism

>>724494349
Where can I find this forum?

>>724502418
you're posting on it

>>724489834 (OP)
WoW was solely good because it was simply a chat lobby that had a game in it. People even liked to larp and yell madeup slurs for fictional races.
Then people started moderating and banning users for being too edgy.

MMOs died when the moderation teams came down. MMOs can never stick, they just suck. The gameplay is absolutely not fire.
I had way more fun shittalking and talking about /pol/ on Starcraft 2 general lobbies than I ever did playing World of Warcraft.
It's all just a bunch of windowlickers now. All the other people just moved on to Paradox Interactive forums for discussions and shittalking on Discord.

>>724501345
For the most part we were very much a "built from the ground up" guild. Started with about half a raid group's worth of players in MC, by the time BWL dropped we had a solid core of about 25-30 people who were pretty good but not amazing, with the remaining 10 being kinda bad but fun to play with and good people overall. Things only started to become a problem when AQ was on farm and the server was losing players.

Our casul scum shitter guild managed to acquire
>MC, BWL, and AQ on farm status
>7/14 Naxx
>two scarab lords
>5 High Warlords
>1 thunderfury (with another one having been kicked out because he was a sex pest)
>2 hands of rags (crafted by myself)

All without poaching. So you can be kinda bad at the game and play with kinda bad players and still be successful

Every MMO that isn't PvP-first isn't worth playing.

>>724499224
No it's not, it fucking blows ass and is extremely stressful and unfun.

>>724501689
not really. the leaders of the top guilds are all people with high charisma. raid lead is also something that you can only do if you have patience and know how to talk to people. you also cant tolerate ragers and roachers for long because those 2 types of players are guild destroyers. also women are always a problem, eventually they will start drama and men will fight over them.

>>724503374
Like 1 in 3 people in my guild were women and never once did "men fight over them", leading to drama

>>724494718
Well, ultima online particularly Outlands but I'm going to give bdo a try right now on your rec since I'm hiding from my uo guild. I hope the ocean content is as cool as it looks.

>>724503560
>ultima online
Albion

>>724490259
>>724491073
>>724496283
I think I agree on the fighting games
For a simpler reason: They used to be the game that benchmarked the consoles or arcade boards. You picked up Tekken 2, or Virtua Fighter or DOD, or even something like Killer Instinct and it was a genuine show piece.
You wanted to pick up something smooth, fast, high rez, and clear. To contrast to the the games that where jankier in other ways. Even the 2nd rate games where somewhat high in production values.

Then the HD gen came, and yeah.
Also Gatchas. Gatchas has removed an entire market segment, the "great game that is also good coomer bait without modifications".

>>724491679
its true, as an illiterate midwit that wishes to drag down those around me for my own amusement, i flocked to mmorpgs like a fly to shit
now that i am more self away of what i am, i can see it in the others that i played with
if everyone is miserable, no one is happy
and that replicates my own reality creating a sense of comfort and community

>>724503556
ive seen it multiple times. women that get carried because they are gf of someone important in the guild and causing drama when they get called out on shitty performance or simply because their relationship broke up and they dont want to raid with their ex. also raiding while a literal baby is crying in the background and she has to be afk every few minutes or is late to the raid because the baby or toddler no want to sleep. that was so common during classic.

>>724504534
keep wimmin out of MEN'S spaces
thats why everything is so fucked up now
idiot women getting involved in shit that does NOT concern them
look pretty, sit there, and shut the fuck up
stupid whores

>>724504534
I raided with boomers so all of this, was literally never a problem. The women were either already married and raiding with their husband, or they had aged out past the petty middle school behavior. Just hang out with old people they're so much better to be around my man

>>724504636
This mindset is why you get zero bitches btw

>>724492296
all the normies i knew who tried out wow only did it because they were leaning heavily on celebrity advertising. especially Mr. T. none of them even finished the leveling experience because clicking the same 1-5 buttons over and over while doing endless amounts of fetch bear asses quests is simply not fun for the normie brain.
i can only hope they learned to be more distrustful of celebrity endorsements but who am i fucking kidding

>>724505223
>normies
SEA newfaggot alert

>>724499224
This is a good opinion. Modern post-gacha MMO design is total shit.

>>724505180
i've had more sex than you, incel :)
>bro u gotta smooth talk em cuh

>>724506545
why would SEA countries have ads on tv with american celebrities? did SEA countries even have internet connections that could support wow at the time? fucking think before you speak retard

>>724505180
i am not a misogynist per se, but in wow ive learned that female players are usually attached to some male player or want to be attached to some male player. and they lack ambition of their own, so if their bf doesnt kick them in the ass when they slack or fuck up, its big trouble. eventually you will wipe 20 times on a boss and it will be her fault, because she is the weakest member of the raid, but you are mid season and replacements are hard to come by and if you kick her, you lose her bf as well, which means you need to replace 2 people, maybe more if that guy also has male friends that absolutely want to raid with him, often impossible and then the whole guild falls apart.

>>724506772
every millenial world wide knows captain james t kirk and ba barracus. weve all seen a team and rocky. blizz aired these ads all over the world.

>>724506935
>they lack ambition of their own
more like they don't want to play the game for any other reason than to spend time with the guy.
i had to put up with this parasite couple dynamic during TBC, the wife was the healer, we bring her to karazhan. the dude is the main tank. fucking beast of a player. meanwhile she's still using fucking questing greens because she only did the attunement dungeons and absolutely nothing else. never fucking online except on raid nights to fuck our raid nights up.
we wipe for hours on end because she can not fucking heal. one night the other healer reaches his limit, logs off after dropping a message for the GM to talk to the co-healer because he's done being a solo healer. this pisses off the tank who leaves, and with him came all the other competent players who would play regularly with him. next day, there was no guild.
don't join guilds with couples.

>>724506935
Idk I've played wow for almost two decades and never ever seen this situation play out. I've seen the pattern from two or more friends that weren't partners. But there's never been a pattern like you're describing specific to women in my experience

>>724490259
>Monster Hunter fans will never receive another Monster Hunter game catering to them
>tfw

>It’s so expensive and takes so long to make a game.
To be honest it doesn't have to be as expensive as it is for AAA. Big studios are extremely inefficient and bogged down by managerial overload. Studio size of 10-50 is much more efficient, requires less budget and companies that aren't public can make better games because they aren't beholden to stock price and the demands that come with it.

>>724496494
Rise was trash. Wilds was trash in a different way.

>>724508437
lucky you.

>>724506935
>0-parsing (not an exaggeration) woman dps
>can't say anything because she's a full member and i'm still on trial, would just get kicked on the spot for misogyny or stirring up drama
>just ghost the entire guild one raid when i realize she always has a reserved spot and people actually trying to play the game don't
>never even bothered to figure out if she's sleeping with an officer
i genuinely do not know how an entire guild puts up with this charade.

>>724495165
Fucking delusional. If you truly think this you didn't play back in the day. The way people approached classic was entirely different. It was full of metagaming, powergaming, speedrunning faggotry. It birthed a bunch of soulless shit like GDKP, AoE boosting services and was massively affected by bots manipulating resources and the market.

>>724510147
It's really not that complicated: the guild exists because the Guild Master and his cronies weren't enough players to clear the content. The rest of the guild exists so only to make clearing the content possible.

>>724496490
>then again cata classic was when most people left again
most people left before naxx hit on classic the first time

>>724492202
You can't make an MMORPG where players have their individual stories written by the devs. The story needs to be something the player creates for the character as he plays it. That's the only way that works for an MMORPG.

>>724495165
yeah i totally remember collecting every single world buff in the game so i could get a funny pink number on the e-peen website on the real vanilla.
fucking retard.

>>724489834 (OP)

The problem everybody is missing is the endless treadmill, how many times can you grind for the best gear just to have it all become worthless a few months later. That gets old, and eventually you see you are just a hamster running on an endless wheel. The other main issue is the content is drip fed so everybody is doing the same tiny 1% addition to the world at the same time, so it always feels small despite the world being massive. It’s the same few mythic dungeons or raids over and over and a tiny quest zone for that patch.
Then you have the tiny loot pools as they only design one armour set every few months so their is zero interesting gearing decisions, you just play dress up with how you look with transmog with zero interesting gearing decisions or care about stats which makes it so braindead and shallow.
You can equip 500 diff transmogs but always have the exact identical stats, this makes gear really boring, I am supposed to be deciding between setups not just braindead given one gear setup to use each patch.
And lastly, the longer they go the more broken the plot same as any tv show, impossible to keep quality long term.

>>724511043
>why yes I have only played one mmo but I will pretend I'm an authority on the genre!

>>724496090
It was one of the tools they used to learn internet and how to control people using it.

>>724495971
this
at some point in time blizzard began glowing in the dark

>>724495760
>break things on purpose during alpha/beta
>forums are flooded with negative feedback
>nothing gets done, you might get a blue post explaining the dev's reasoning, no further acknowledgement of the topic
>expansion releases
>.1 and .2 patch release, nothing gets done. MAYBE you'll get a minor improvement blaming it on an "unintended bug"
>suddenly a blizzard dev going "we hear you. we see you." during .3's testing
>the final patch, x.3, releases. marginal improvements.
>OMG BLIZZ IS LISTENING FINALLY, WOW IS KING, WOW WON OMG *dislocates jaw from basedfacing*
>the next expansion releases with another feature, cycle repeats
blizzdrones have the collective memory of a goldfish with alzheimers

>>724513173
Their wishy-washy attitude of taking shit away from the players only to re-introduce it a few years later to thunderous applause like tier sets and talent trees really made me realize how subhuman the people still playing worlo are.

>>724492582
>modern players have too much fear and anxiety to socialize
this instantly goes away when the game requires grouping to level. People stop being afraid to group with strangers when everyone is just trying to group for exp because its easy and low pressure and just the default. Its fear of judgement otherwise, but there is no judgement when everyone is just grouping and pressing the same few buttons for easy exp.

>>724513667
you haven't really played wow in a while and it shows
modern wow players are actively antisocial. you could group up with that stranger over there to finish your world quest slightly faster and they'll just decline your group invite in silence and keep soloing mobs. there's a reason blizzard had to get rid of tagging

Is Age of Conan still worth getting into in the year 2025 AD?

>>724513667
Yes and no. It does work in the sense that older games like FFXI worked for almost two decades forcing people to group up, but at the same time it limits the overall appeal and reach of the game and allowed for WoW to flourish with the auto grouping and all it was doing instead for content. It's why we basically will never see the old systems of forced grouping return since it doesn't work with aging and newer players, even more so in today's MMO atmosphere where it's mostly mega servers of sorts where you're not going to be like the olden days and have a reputation really built up that matters for the random party you're thrown into for 20-30 minutes to run down a hallway and do a few tank and spank bosses for exp in a dungeon these days.

>>724489834 (OP)
Facebook, instagram, discord, and twitch ate their lunch
You no longer have to build social media into a video game because computers (and gamers) can do both at the same time now

>>724491679
Thank fucking god I never got into this shit. MH Rise online fags complain to me about this exact same dps shit and to think its worse in mmos

>>724514110
why do people keep pretending chat rooms and forums were never a thing?

>>724514059
>WoW
WoW has never been a grouping game. Its one of the main things it did to ruin the genre. All the mmos that copied it also copied its solo leveling systems and mmos are ruined.
In the example you gave there is no need to group.

>>724514101
the important point is that its not that people fundamentally changed, they adapted to the game environment they were given. If being social is not optimal people will not be social.
If the game doesnt require you to group its not worth grouping, and if it does autogroup you for very short bursts of activities then its not worth being social with people you will never see again.

Forced grouping (so people did not feel awkward asking for groups), downtime (so people got bored), grinding mobs for exp (so people had to stick together in the same group for long periods). These are what made early mmos social. With out these things the game will simply not be social.

By comparison we can look at other team cooporative games like team based fps. These are also not social, even though you play with people and many times will coordinate with random people on your team. There is no reason to have any socialization, particularly in modern non server browser games. But even with server browsers i certainly never socialized by my regular servers. Only a small number of people did that.

The old school mmo formula is simply a requirement for social games.

>>724490436
3pbp

>>724513667
i genuinely believe most players still playing modern mmos see other players just as nothing more than people to show off and compete in leaderboards over how many pixels they've all collected, and not as actual people to play the game let alone talk with. wow, xiv, gw2, doesn't matter
collectathon faggots are a cancer on this genre.

>>724515162
very true
the GO GO GO GO GO CAN'T STOP WON'T STOP mentality prevents any chance to type out a message
and i sure as fuck don't want to be in VC with a mouthbreather who can't use push to talk as their family yelling in the background

MMOs need to go back to being cozy and social instead of just being infinite treadmills.

>>724489834 (OP)
We stopped being highschool/college kids with infinite time to dump on grinds and raid nights.

Albion Online is a good MMO. Full loot PvP fixes so many problems.

>>724489834 (OP)
>What happened to MMOs?
social media happened

>>724489834 (OP)
Discord renders in-game chat meaningless thus killing the community atmosphere.

>>724516186
Expand

>>724489834 (OP)
they banned everyone for having fun

>>724516989
It's like eve but without the autism, the game systems naturally allow players to create their own stories, as the game design naturally encourages players to group up and inevitably run into conflict with others over resources or territories

It also helps that the good gear isn't actually that huge of an advantage in that game. It obviously still gives you better odds but even cheap gear still gives you a fighting chance due to the combat being actually skill based.

>>724517552
Interesting. I never played it. I tried Corepunk but they get it very wrong in that game (still in EA)

>>724489834 (OP)
There's a lot of big MMOs right now. As for why we aren't getting any new ones, it's because MMOs are a huge investment for a game developer and there's no point if you can't steal that audience who already has a sunk-cost in whatever MMO they're playing. I think the Internet and video game subgenres have evolved over the years such that the same audience who might've played an MMO 20 years ago has other things they'd rather do instead today. When I played MMOs, they were full of lots of people playing the game for different reasons. If you want to play them so you can chat with people while playing a light game, you can do that easily with literally any video game right now with Discord or just a second monitor and social media open. If you're on the open end of the spectrum and you're a competitive player who wants to earn shiny rare gear and lord it over everyone, there's a panoply of more skill-rewarding games to choose from, like shooters and MOBAs, where you can collect cosmetics and shit on 8-year olds. MOBAs especially appeal to the audience WoW brought in, since they're both bugman games, and cartoony fantasy. But it's worth noting that not everyone WoW brought in would be interested in these games, but not everyone WoW brought in is interested in games period. WoW got so popular because they paid celebrities to star in commercials promoting the game to normalfags. Blizzard has always just been a bunch of fake nerds making highly polished replicas of better games. Those normalfags who played WoW aren't going to play another MMO, that audience is playing mobile games right now.

I do think there's an audience MMOs don't pander to anymore that's jumping back and forth between games like BG3, DaD and old MMOs trying to find some co-op fantasy game to play with friends, and they might play MMOs again if the bait looks nice enough.

>>724489834 (OP)
Relic of an age that no longer exists

>>724514096
apparently it's in maintenance mode hell and basically somehow buggier than it was in back in the day

>>724498459
Trvthnvke. Everyone on 4chan and Reddit (same thing) always complains nobody talks, but when you ask them if THEY talk to others they just start to stammer and throw out excuses.
If you want to see something happen then you have to do it dipshit. Don't stand around wishing for a different world, start being that change yourself.

>>724515162
>Forced grouping (so people did not feel awkward asking for groups), downtime (so people got bored), grinding mobs for exp (so people had to stick together in the same group for long periods). These are what made early mmos social. With out these things the game will simply not be social.
This and the game worlds in general being inhospitable, hard to get around and death being something you really don't want to have happen to you. It's that sort of design that directs player behavior.

With WoW and Blizzard starting to cater more and more to normies the devs of these games forgot that they're supposed to herd the players like the sheep that they are, not cave in to their demands.

People are just less social than they used to be. MMO players stay in their homes all day and never interact with other people, while back in their hayday, and while nerdy, MMO players went to school clubs, had IRL friendgroups, and shit like that. People just don't have LAN parties until 5am with Mountain Dew and pizza anymore.

>>724516186
>>724517552
Albion's world design is a perfect example of what it means to be soulless. It doesn't feel like a fantasy world. It's a series of tiered zones designed for you to grind materials.

>>724491783
i fuck with minecraft though.
Only with mods though.

>>724489834 (OP)
Went from a genre about a massive open world filled with hundreds of players doing stuff together to 5-20 man hallway boss speedruns with daily login bonuses for collecting 3 bear asses from the 'open world' where you spend more time logging and flying to than actually doing your daily quest

>>724499307
God I hope we get another planetside 2. I wasn't too into it yet I wish I was. That game was fucking fun looking back on my time with it.
The only thing that has even touched that itch again is Helldivers 2 and that's only PVE and even then it's gone to shit now because dev incompetency.

>>724489834 (OP)
>>724523272
If you've followed the development cycle of newer mmos over the last decade or so you'll notice how fast the community around them becomes flooded with narcissists all trying to become the de facto face/personality of the discord/subreddit community before the game is even fucking out yet.

Really, the next big mmo will probably the one that manages to fully incorporate parasocial content creator worship into the core gameplay. Sorta like OnlyFangs only now integrated into the mmo itself.

>>724490436
this