Thread 724591929

As I was playing videogames. Drowning in a depressive lack of faith in them to be interesting or possess any sense of intentionality that isnt "interaction for interactions sake". In desperation I remembered something, somebody had told me on this board that made no sense a while ago. "No, Kingdom Hearts was the Zelda of its generation". I saw a video of Sora having to dowse candles with Blizzara.

So what im basically asking is. Have I been mistaken about Kingdom Hearts 1? i always had the impression its primarily or mostly an action game because thats the reputation the series has with Kingdom Hearts 2 being the most popular and acclaimed of the series. I played KH2 before KH1 actually because of that. Shallow straightforward levels, leading you from "arena" (circular area where enemies are spammed) to arena with combat (typical of this era) where it felt like enemies have little to no stunlock (or poise) and just ignore your attacks (not damage) and no dedicated dash, or meaningful jump, or block, or crowd control seemingly whatsoever.

I wasnt interested and felt the combat while flashy and cool looking, didnt really offer much to me in terms of quick on the fly thinking and decision making. And when I tried KH1 I didnt last long because figuring out how to progress was surprisingly confusing and I was burnt out by Kingdom Hearts at that point.

With a more open mind now, where I try to appreciate games with friction and intentionality. I'm wondering if I gave up on KH1 because I thought it would be more of the same as KH2 with slightly more annoying navigation.

So I want to ask. If Kingdom Hearts 1 more of an Adventure game or Action game?

yes yes no

I'd say it's action adventure rpg

>>724592090
What does this mean?

>>724592101
Okay. But basically what im trying to figure out. Is if its one of those half assed "action adventure" games.

The ones that are more about the aesthetic or manufactured "feeling" of adventure. I define this as post LOTR "adventure". The "adventure" where the "adventurers" dont actually do anything youd have to do on an adventure. But just travel from point to point. Vista to Vista. Lore background area to area. Fighting enemies, and getting into danger. And sometimes coming across a roadblock thats dealt with by convenient chance.

Im talking about real adventure. What the world would have described when conjured. Having to navigate harsh terrain (Braving stormy seas with nothing but a compass)
Having to use available tools to deal with and solve problems (Throw over an anchor to not be swept away) Having to of course traverse in the first place. (Everybodys hands on deck so that the boat can make it through the storm without tipping over) These analogies arent an expectation of what I literally think all adventures must be like.

If you simply abstract my analogies you have:
Exploration/Navigation
Puzzle Solving/Problem Solving
Traversal/Platforming

Any game that strongly focuses on one or more of these facets of adventure without purely being an exploration game (what I call wandering games) or puzzle game or platforming game. Is adventure.

why the fuck this nigga writing essays about videogames?????

Does anybody play or talk about videogames here?

>>724593301
no. where do you think u are

>>724593301
You didn't talk so much as give everyone a bunch of homework.

>>724593404
1600 characters is homework for you????

Do any of you actually even want to think about videogames? Or just treat videogames like shallow base pop culture to gossip about like losers on twitter obsessed with hollywood actors?

lol

>>724593574
I like talking about video games but this topic is some critical analysis over gameplay and story dissonance that goes over most people's heads.

>>724591929 (OP)
>>724592430
Was a simple question about which genre a game is really important enough to you for all this text?

>>724594242
>is some critical analysis over gameplay and story dissonance that goes over most people's heads.
hunh? oh i think i get what you mean.
I just distinguish it as interactive adventure vs aesthetic or presentational adventure.
we live in a world dominated by appearance and representation, so words that used to take on meanings of being in the context of the real world. instead becomes labels to he slapped onto something as a means of representing or invoking a feeling. its not like words have never been used this way in the past, but everything is a symbol now, everything has to be advertised and marketed, and we are increasingly disconnected from any actual actions in the real world with the internet. so while words were always used like labels. the label meaning has dominated the "essence" meaning.

hence more people think about whether and adventure feels loosely like lord of the rings, rather than actual adventures and shit that people like Columbus embarked in, or adventures to the North Pole etc etc.

Adventure becomes distilled to purely traveling from a familar place to an unfamilar place, and the little things inbetween about how somebody actually gets there, and how they brave the harsher conditions and problem solve when things dont go right, get forgotten.

Im not asking for a "survival" game as I dont believe they even account for half of the aspects im talking about beyond consequence. But...yeah

Anyway if your point is just that people cant talk about videogames and how theyre ACTUALLY designed and expressed abstractly then...idk what to say, thats sad and disappointing.

>>724594348
>enough to you for all this text?
When exactly should text be "enough" or not "enough"? If its too much you can just ask for it to be reduced to a more manageable load for a child, or point out what seems tasking or unnecessary about the text. I think thats what somebody who values discussion should do, so that discussion is maintained. Not dissipated through lazy non engagement framed as the fault of the discusser.

>>724594841
>When exactly should text be "enough" or not "enough"?
Depends on context. In this case the subject line alone was more than enough.

>>724595338
Im not sure what you mean by subject like regardless I wouldnt feel the need to elaborate if my question was answered sufficiently. Which it has yet to be...

Kingdom Hearts 1 is the actual good one of the series Kingdom Hearts 2 is for action brainded normies who love their combo juggling spam per Devil May Cry except the bosses and enemies actually fight back on the hardest mode (horrible idea unironically)

It's a set-piece action adventure game. True adventure games aren't usually found in narrative-focused Japanese games. Gotta goto the dungeon crawler RPGs if you want that sense of adventure.

>>724596120
>It's a set-piece action adventure game.
What does this mean? Is this just another way of describing my LOTR adventure "game" analogy? I figure the game youre referincing most when you attach Japanese games to this, is final fantasy, because indeed FF is like the definition of "Just travel from place to place doing nothing really but combat, and some gimmick road blocking things like riding a dolphin to "solve a problem" when its moreso just a convenience showing up that requires no actual thinking from you as a player or adventurer.

If thats really how KH1 is, and you dont really do any problem solving or creative traversal within levels then thats disappointing.

>Gotta goto the dungeon crawler RPGs if you want that sense of adventure.
Thats the thing. Thats already the direction im testing out right now. Kings Field is out of the question for other reasons (among not actually meeting my criteria for the most part) but im trying some others. What do you recommend?

>>724595845
KH2 is still great. It just has a different vibe and less soul.

>>724596809
And also requires less thought to play

It’s an Action RPG. I’d say it’s more RPGy than the sequel ended up being, with the choice at the start between the 3 weapons actually impacting your skill tree to a significant extent while in KH2, it was much less diverse.

>>724596950
Alright. Alright. Ill stop pressing. I think I've seen enough answers certainly emphasizing the action aspect of even the first game over any adventure aspects...sad. But most disappointingly odd and weird that anybody would even call it the OoT of its gen or even like Zelda in any meaningful respect...

>>724597245
>odd and weird that anybody would even call it the OoT of its gen or even like Zelda in any meaningful respect...
yeah some people are just retarded, learn to accept that

bumpan

>>724591929 (OP)
It's an action game. It's heavily battle oriented. Levels are linear and there's very little exploration.

>>724598208
You sure youre talking about KH1 and not 2?

>>724598348
yea

>>724591929 (OP)
It’s an Action RPG that was heavily inspired by Ocarina.

The first game is the purest synthesis of action and RPG elements we ever got. Every other elegant in the series either leans too heavily on the action side of things (KH2 and 3) or leans too much on the RPG side of things (Days and BBS).

>>724598797
>It’s an Action RPG that was heavily inspired by Ocarina.
Didnt Nomura say M64?

>>724596809
>>724596880
>less soul
>less thought to play

>>724599874
what is your point?

So did we ever settle this question? Just got here

>>724591929 (OP)
it's an action rpg

>>724591929 (OP)
I'd call the first game an Adventure RPG while I would call 2 and onward Action RPGs. KH1 platforming really makes it feel different compared to the following games.

>>724601318
>KH1 platforming really makes it feel different compared to the following games.
The Puzzles too and generally actually having to figure out where to go, like Deep Jungle

>>724601671
>The Puzzles
nigga what puzzles?

Autists need their genre labels.

what is the oot of 7th gen

>>724591929 (OP)
It's an action adventure RPG. It has
>good and serviceable combat
>RPG-lite mechanics and character building more in the style of a jrpg
>puzzles and exploration are rewarded and required for the secret ending
Even more so in the Final Mix version that combined the gameplay, puzzles, rpg elements, and exploration for some cancerous minigames

>>724592430
In that case and you're slightly absurd metrics where-in anything that isn't an actual adventure (few games other than SoTC are) is a half-assed adventure game I'd say this is just an action rpg then

>>724602551
This is what im wondering too. 6th gen always gets these talks but never 7th gen. Which to be fair, I understand when Uncharted is basically considered its generations premier "adventure" game when it has all fake adventure elements

>>724596392
Etrian Odyssey series let's you scale dungeons and has you build your party up in meaningful ways as you tackle the dungeons which have difficult opponents that'll smoke you out until you can figure out strategies with your team that can beat them. You can also unlock shortcuts for future visits. The plots are minimal for the games as the core is making your own adventure as you explore and draw out the maps of the dungeons (literally if you play on DS/3DS).

>>724603006
>(few games other than SoTC are)
You might be genuinely and unbelievably retarded, or simply mentally deficient and unable to read if you think "Shine light to point to you where to go" in anyway meets my "Navigating a ship through a storm where there are no landmarks or sense of direction, and you have to orient yourself and read the direction of the wind and trust your compass". Maybe I should have given bad examples of "adventure" games because SOTC barely qualifies as "platforming" or traversal. If you think "Hold and Press up when youre on the fur back of a colossus" is any meaningfully different than Uncharteds "press up to climb" then you're retarded, that stamina bar doesnt mean shit, unless you go as far as to imply that actually the problem with uncharteds climbing is that you dont have to stop ever other second at a safe designated stopping point

>>724602551
What would you describe as the OOT? The closest thing a whole damn adventure that isn't entirely on rails for 7th gen is something like RDR probably
>>724603030
This too, I'd say the original uncharted is definitely one of the most aesthetic and well crafted adventure games of the 7th gen but it's extremely on rails

>>724602925
>Even more so in the Final Mix version that combined the gameplay, puzzles, rpg elements, and exploration for some cancerous minigames
I was planning just to emulate, because I actually own the Final Mix of the entire series on my Playstation, but hate couch gaming.

So ill probably just have to emulate

>>724603274
"navigating a ship through a storm where there are no landmarks or sense of direction" does not exist in videogames

>>724603330
Final Mix is really good, but I'm not a fan of how central the heartless minigames are to 100% the game

>>724603317
>and well crafted adventure games of the 7th gen
Bruh??? Youre joking. I must not have done well enough with my criteria to clarify fake platforming, or fake "puzzles" and whatnot. Well whatever, people already complained that a typed up too much, Id have to type up even more to explain why certain types of "platforming" and "traversal" dont embody anything about adventure. I thought the analogy was enough. You obviously dont just push forward while charting a ship on the sea, its much more complicated than that.

>>724603369
Its an analogy are you retarded?

Explain then what happens in Dark Souls 1, when you have to navigate complex layered levels without any map? twisting and looping back on themselves.
Or fuck I can even give classic Resident Evil as an example. Where you DO need to read a map, but the map doesnt mark anything itself. And so you have to memorize, and mentally map all the places youve been, to return to with matching items, keys, puzzle pieces and etc. Slowly unraveling the mansion like a knot with each memorized room matching the proper item/key.

Or what of Outer Wilds? Navigating a large array of planets in a mini solar system, having to understand which planet to set your course to, in what order, and what to do on that planet, based on bits of information from other planets, that build up your knowledge and understanding of how each planet works and the solar systems rules in general. Mentally mapping in your head what piece of information connects to what planet and how.

>>724599874
prove them wrong without posting a selfie next time

>>724603649
>without any map
>in a mostly linear starting dungeon, and follow up dungeons that mostly lead exactly to where the level design and landmarks show you they lead to
Not really a true adventure. Hell closest thing to what you're describing is something like Outer Wilds

>>724603430
Name one then

I have it on good authority that OP sucks cocks.

>>724603734
>Not really a true adventure.
How I know youre an actual AI bot. AI is incapable of engaging with and actually understanding what somebody is saying because they dont actually exist in the world and have any experience with any of the concepts theyre referring to, so what they do is operate on a preconceived script of what they think something is supposed to mean. Its why they suck at nuance. And always mess up even when you give them a criteria because they dont actually have any logic capacities they just replicate preconceived notions.

Why does this matter here? Because youre a literal retard that proved multiple times that you dont understand the criteria and youre also a bot (i know) because you use an incredibly generic retard, word that people who dont think or even possess any critical thought use, called "linear". Not understanding that every single fucking adventure in the past has been linear by definition because you cant afford to get lost off track when you don't have the supplies to waste.

Also Outer Wilds is linear. There is an intended order of planets youre supposed to navigate, and the entire game exists to serve an end goal/point. The only distinguishing factor is that the linear path has to be FOUND and understood. You dont even understand what "linear" means. This is what I mean. At most you can charitably call outer wilds "open". But not imply its non linear. Other than in a sort of weird abstract sense where you already have all the knowledge before hand and can skip certain things.

>>724591929 (OP)
You fags get so fucking autistic about genre. Who the fuck cares? Nobody back then asked themselves what genre kingdom hearts was or any of these games. They just played them.

>>724591929 (OP)
KH1 is an action RPG with some platforming and puzzle elements, but the puzzles are generally pretty simple. The platforming is fine, but because of the other elements it clearly isn't the focus and is a bit wonky. I wouldn't compare it to OOT at all since there's not really dungeons, just worlds with different themes that usually require going back and forth between certain areas and interacting with specific elements in order to proceed forward. There's not really tools outside of swinging your keyblade and magic. Some elements aren't required you even interact with them at all, like the chests in Hollow Bastion that require gravity to bring down.

KH2 leans towards the action elements more and focuses on combos, drives, limits, etc. with the platforming elements only coming back a bit in Final Mix, otherwise you generally just walk to your destination until you fight a bosses or an enemy gauntlet. This change seems to be because so many people back in the day complained about the less developed platforming and how it feels a bit ass until you get more abilities, but there's still a strong exploration element. Cave of Wonders and the Library of Hollow Bastion are probably the closest the game gets to LoZ feeling.

>>724593574
>OoT
>Do any of you actually even want to think about videogames?
oh, it's the zelda oot spammer

>>724604509
This is a fair and detailed description. So it seems that most of the "puzzle" or "item interaction" elemente are relegated to optional side stuff. Which isnt actually too dissimilar to some or many zelda games but thank you for the honest and indepth answer. Maybe ill give KH a chance idk. I dont have many options right now. I dont even need it to be like zelda. Just have a unique element of enviromental interactivity of its own, that is more than just combat. Whether its platforming, puzzles, or navigation. It doesnt need to be "hard" it just needs to be creative or require some thought.

Because Outer Wilds is not a hard game. All the puzzles are simple and rarely require multiple steps. What they usually require is multiple synthesis' of prior knowledge

Why does the OoT ritualposter spam chatgpt replies to himself?

>>724604509
>platforming and puzzles are too basic
>"ERM LETS JUST REMOVE IT"

10/10 use of resources

>>724605189
That's probably how they saw it back in the day. If you get feedback from a lot of Japanese people saying that it is fun but feels clumsy (and compared to a dedicated 3D platformers, it is), you probably just try to remove the issue altogether rather than try to make it a better version of itself. I'm sure there were also complaints of worlds being confusing to get through, so that's why they turned levels into combat hallways. Though you could see why then they'd want the action combat to be more of a focus, and to try to perfect the general gameplay feedback, which KH2 does do well for the general playerbase.

>>724605149
wtf are you talking about? no remote chatgpt prompt could get you such indepth and honest discussion

>>724605189
Stuff like this only happens when the devs already dont respect or care enough about the adventure aspects to even keep them or improve upon them. Especially when the market has no standards or care and respect for those elements either, so the next generation can get away with the great con of just shallowly embodying fake adventure aspects

>>724595845
>except the bosses and enemies actually fight back on the hardest mode (horrible idea unironically)
by the time you get to something that can fight back you have Reflect which is fully invincible and starts a combo if the enemy melees you during it. works on bosses btw

>>724606247
I quit KH2 at the level where cartoon cars were driving around just bumping into me and I couldnt do anything about it but wait for my small turn to attack.

>>724606387
that's one of maybe 2 enemies in the entire game that rewards blocking. though you can also just jump over them

>>724595692
>Im not sure what you mean by subject

>>724607046
i needed to give context and outline adventure clearly as evidenced by this thread

>>724591929 (OP)
Kingdoms Hearts and Kingdom Hearts II are both ARPGs.
Kingdom Hearts is an RPG first and foremost.
Kingdom Hearts is an Action game first and foremost.

It's an action rpg. Every other game can be considered an adventure game so sure that as well.

>>724608247
>Every other game can be considered an adventure game so sure that as well.
Did you just ignore everything i said about adventure?

>>724608867
Did you just suck a giant cock and guzzle the cum?

>>724608975
why are you making up weird fantasies? whats wrong with you?

stay away from my precious kingdom hearts, essayfag. you have the wrong type of autism required to enjoy such kino.

Adventure games don't exist. Zelda is just shitter than average action RPG. Here, solved it for you.

>>724609237
huh?

>>724591929 (OP)
>Is Kingdom Hearts 1 an Adventure game or Action game?
Rogue-like deck builder.

What does Final Mix actually add in terms of puzzles and platforming? does it add to existing levels? or is it mostly just adding on to more optional shit that you can do like end game stuff?

>>724609349
>Adventure games don't exist.
How does that make sense? My criteria makes sense and I listed atleast 3 games that meet only one of those categories. Two of those games out of 3 also meet the puzzle category, and there is one more game I could mention that also meets almost all 3 categories as well.

Can you actually please not be a retard or a bot and try to engage seriously with this? If im wrong I want to understand why Im wrong and whats so wrong about trying to strongly define adventure games so that there can be a standard we can appeal to. Ive played SO many "adventure" games that have all he disappointing in various ways due to seemingly having no actual idea what they want to be, like Uncharted. It clearly wants to be an action movie cinematic adventure. But beyond mere appearance, as an actual videogame, it doesnt actually do anything interesting with interactivity to be conducive to that. It doesng have good action nor good adventure and its set pieces have a fundamental flaw that basically makes it fall apart completely if youre not a bot that plays games mouth agape: The setpieces can be repeated, and are often trial and error.

If I cant change or infuence videogames. I want to be able to atleast change or influence the amount of bad or disappointing games I have to come across so that my faith in videogames does not crumble at how derivative, and lacking in any actual sense of intentional and thoughtful design there is, when vidoegames clearly have SOOOO much potential in the avenue of adventure. What should be the widest, deepest and most accomodating of multiple modes of interactivity genre in the entire medium.

You've inspired me OP I like your grit. Bump for videogames

>>724609848
what games are adventure games then? Besides OOT-likes. Literally every single other one you can come up with is likely a Tomb Raider like.

>>724610139
>you can come up with is likely a Tomb Raider like.
Tomb Raider likes dont exist or else I would have started looking for those long ago. Tomb Raider is too unique and special. But yes you guessed correctly. The fourth type of game that meets my criteria is indeed classic tomb raider.

>what games are adventure games then?
Look at my criteria. Im asking because Ive played too many "adventure" games and they all fucking suck.

But some ive already mentioned are: Dark Souls 1 and SPECIFICALLY DS1, not any other soulslike. Theyre too easy to navigate to count. I may give Bloodborne a pass depending on how im feeling.
Then theres Resident Evil, and here again there are exceptions. I only really count the original first game and its immediate sequel.
Then theres Outer Wilds.
One game that could arguably count. Id have to think about it though, is Death Stranding. Another game that could count is obviously zelda, very loosely though because youll have to flip a coin on whether its actually featuring a real puzzle or a fake puzzle. And I hopefully dont have to explain how the classic 3D zeldas automatic contexual jumping when you move past a ledge, is fake platforming. Or how Breath of The Wilds "push forward to climb and chug potions or stand on a slope" isnt real traveral either. Same criticism stands for Shadow of The Colossus, and Uncharted, though all different every single one of these games' "platforming" can be reduced to "hold forwars".

>>724610647
3rd person action game, survival horror, puzzle game, traversal aka strand type game. Like outer wilds is first person exploration puzzle detective game, not a fucking adventure game. DS1 is action rpg with survival horror elements. Your criteria is as shit as "hack n slash" genre which somehow encompases fucking diablo and dark souls and devil may cry. It's fucking shit grouping mate.

Hell, you can easily clip uncharted and colossus under cinematic platformer like Limbo and Inside. Which still be more fucking descriptive than adventure.

OP is such a fucking faggot

>>724610905
>Your criteria is as shit as "hack n slash" genre which somehow encompases fucking diablo and dark souls and devil may cry. It's fucking shit grouping mate.
What? Youre retarded. I never ever have grouped these game. And I dont even usually mention these games exactly because of the retarded problem of people coming in with their retarded shallow preconceived notions about videogames because they dont understand them or dissect them. There are people that seriously think that Metroidbrania is a real genre let alone one that Outer Wilds can be grouped under, yet is dissimilar to 90% of them beyond the incredibly superficial aspect of "some things cant be progressed past without knowledge rather than mechanics!" Which nearly every fucking game can be grouped under. What about every fucking game that has a shitty note tell you the code to a door? Or audio recordings that tell you where some item is or whatever? Its just arbitrary.

Me? I dont identify one singular characteristic to center a genre around. Im not even looking to create a genre. I looked at the origin of the word "Adventure" I looked at what type of endeavors it would be applied to, and tried to find some essential factes of those endeavors that seperated it from a simple "journey" or "vaction" or "delivery" or "walk" or any other kind of simple "A to B" intentional travel. I also looked at classic "adventure" books.

And what are the themes? There is always purpose, they are always looking for something. Not simply looking to find something, or come across something, they are looking to accomplish something. So this rules out open world games that I call "wandering contrary to exploration". Because they are designed so that there is no wrong direction, so that everything found and seen is the "purpose" and so there is none.

I wont explain the rest as its pretty explanatory you need a way to get to what youre looking for. And that you need to solve unexpected problems

>>724611360
op you are somehow more pretentious than youtube essayists. Go make a video on why YIIK I.V. is a good game instead of doing useless shit.

>>724610958
he posted without lurking for 2 years

>>724611804
based he isnt an npc thats just fine to slot in

final bump

....

>>724591929 (OP)
It's purely an action RPG
It has virtually no real Zelda-like elements
It's as much like Zelda as DMC or Souls
It's literally more of a platformer than a Zelda-like

>>724614208
Well I dont need it to be a Zelda like per se. Just meet any of my 3 adventure criteria.

Does atleast have interesting levels that require navigation, as in understanding the level layout to progress? Puzzles? as in coming across a problem that must be solved using tools and the enviroment available to you? Platforming as in having to smartly and tightly navigate space fo avoid danger, or cross gaps you normally couldnt in creative/challenging ways?

It doesnt even need to be all of these, just a strong enough focus on one of these in a way that doesnt feel shallow. If its simple, atleast be interesting or creative

.....

>>724592101
This

How does one define an “action adventure” game? It’s perhaps the vaguest label that can be applied to a game.

Personally, I think it probably has to give off a sense of adventure like KH1, but they categorise Uncharted as action adventure games, which are about as unadventurous as you can get.