Thread 724911212

Are Shirou's self-sacrificing ideals really hypocritical?

yes, that's why he turned into Archer in the first place
also why Heaven's Feels is the best route

>>724911212 (OP)
No, they're just stupid and ignore reality

>>724911856
>No, they're just stupid and ignore reality

Explain

In Fate he never has his ideals challenged and carries them to the end. He'll "save everyone"
In UBW, when facing Archer he admits they're paradoxically selfish, but decides he won't give them up entirely, he'll surpass himself. He'll become better than the Shirou that pursued the ideals and became Archer. He'll "protect what matters (friends and family) and still save who he can."
In HF he comes to a different conclusion entirely. That the most precious people are more important than those ideals, so he discards them entirely. In this case, he'll "protect his important people, the world can go to hell"

>>724911212 (OP)
They might be hypocritical but they were never wrong.

>>724911212 (OP)
I'd say just ambitious, as well as ironically selfish, but not hypocritical nor necessarily bad.

>>724911212 (OP)
his ideals are definitely contradictory, but they fuel the kino that is FSN so they are based as fuck

Did HF really make more sense?

>>724911886
>>724911212 (OP)
>people are in danger and no one can help!
>I need powers to save them
>make a soul contract in order to gain powers
>time to fulfill the contract after death
>kill way more people than the ones you saved in life
>totally ass deal, you can't help everyone
>uhm ackshually reality is not grim and it's your fault you stopped believing just because you're right doesn't mean you're correct

>>724914963
For Shirou? Probably not. He becomes a fucking puppet does he even have magic circuits anymore?
UBW might be his best outcome. Leaves to the Clock Tower, has a gf thing in Rin. Fate also is a decent ending since after whatever the hell he does in life he gets to die and live in Avalon with Saber forever.

>>724914963
it doesn't make sense for the other routes to exist with Zouken not doing anything

>>724915760
>it doesn't make sense for the other routes to exist with Zouken not doing anything

He just slept through it bro

>>724915760
It actually does. Zouken simply waits a bit later since the pieces aren't perfectly aligned for his plan. Having Gilgamesh and Kotomine at the same time made getting the Grail a nearly impossible gamble for him.
As a matter of a fact, it's pretty obvious that both Fate and UBW 3 endings leave a power vacuum that's perfect for him to plan the next holy grail war.
If anything it's weird that he came out so early in the story in Heaven's feel.

>>724916074
Could Caster have killed Zouken?

>>724912421
Shirou at DC would get mogged badly by a angry shonen hero bullshit Wally West calling him a moron who is too scared of sacrifice even himself to be a hero and save everyone.

>>724914963
if Sakura was a virgin it would be worthy to follow

>>724916625
No, she's 100% dogshit

>>724916318
Hassan solo'd her and Kuzuki in HF

It was cool that the first Servant to die in the first route was the only survivor in the last route, killing the one that killed her (and survived) in the first route. Haven’t played many VNs, but the genre seems unparalleled in the flexibility of just how different things can turn out.

>>724916318
Absolutely not, but having the overseer having two powerful servants at his side on top of being a trained church executor himself, wasn't something that Zouken would look past. There is no way he would act under those circumstances. The only reason could be him getting too impatient due to the tremendous pain of keeping his soul and body intact.

>>724914963
No

Illya route FUCKING WHEN
Though Nasu still hasn't delivered the full Tsukihime remake, only the Near Side routes are out still so the promised Sacchin route is nowhere to be seen. Motherfucker takes 10x as long to do anything compared to how he used to work

>>724918194
Nasu would be dead twice over before he completed a Fate remake with Illya route

>>724918194
What we know about Illya's route

>Nasu confirmed that Ilya's bird familiars in UBW anime and UBW Ep. 15 were from the draft

>Nasu: If it's at the land that houses the Holy Grail, then Ilya is indeed that strong. And being able to make a familiar from her hair was in the original draft. The work this time around was especially hard, so I ended up using an "Iri's replacement" approach. By the way, the name of the technique is Elfen Lied [German for Elves' Song, 天使の詩 - Angel's Poem]. The bird's name is Storch Fieseler [German term for a type of plane].

>Takeuchi confirmed that Shirou would have a sex scene with Leysritt and Sella

>At the initial concept stage, the only details we had hammered down about these two maids were their names, their general roles (powerhouse/teacher) and which one would become Illya's Dress of Heaven. We only expanded on these characters when we decided to go ahead with "hollow". Normal homonculi are mostly emotionless like Leysritt, so that illustrates what a unique case Illya is. Leysritt was created as a sample of Illya, and Sella was allowed to live only because she was useful as Illya's tutor. That's about the extent of the specifics we initially had for these characters. When I started writing Sella's part in "hollow", however, she quickly became one of my favourite characters. I like Leysritt too, of course. By the way, I think Sella is the only real tsundere character in "Fate"

>Shirou losing his arm protecting Ilya, the two shopping and her singing, BRING ILLYA BACK, and Nine Lives Revolver were also planned for Illya's route

>Shirou was going to drop his ideal to make amends for Kiritsugu's sins in Illya's route, while the Sakura route focuses on him breaking free of Kiritsugu and becoming his own person. Also, Rin was likely going to become a villain after killing Sakura and going mad in the Illya route to complete the pattern of how each heroine is a villain in some route

>Zouken was the final boss

Archer's life was Illya route

who cares about SHITrou? Seibah deserves a REAL man.

>>724911212 (OP)
It is hypocritical to try and save everyone and refuse to think about how to save yourself. In devaluing your own life/self for the sake of others, your perception of lifes value is twisted and you become kiritsugu 2.0 like archer did. Treating the value of lives purely as a numbers game damages your spirit and that's why you gotta let that town get eaten if it means you get to keep your worm waifu alive even a day longer

>>724920065
>and refuse to think about how to save yourself

How could Shirou have fixed this?

>>724920101
I feel nothing.

>>724911212 (OP)
Are you this illiterate?
In UBW Archer was pissy because his 9000+ work years of slaughter as a Counter Guardian gave him dementia and started thinking that those ideals were completely stupid because he forgot his reason for following them. He was gradually remembering shit as he was going on. He got triggered by Shirou mimicking him which made him start turning into him in his mind.
In Fate and Heaven's Feel Shirou begins to develop very differently so Archer can chill out seeing his life and future wasn't set in stone, and sacrifices himself for Shirou and the others in both routes.

>>724918590
Is there somewhere documenting all the stuff that's been said about Illya's route in interviews/Material books/from other official sources? I remember looking for something like that on Beast's Lair a few years back only to come up empty, then again I'm not a regular there so maybe I missed it.

>>724920221
How about this?

"I'm telling you that's crazy! Look, if you were saved, take care of yourself! I'm sorry for the people who got killed, but it's only by chance that you were saved! Then you should take full advantage of your good fortune. You suffered such a hell, so it'll be a waste if you don't have fun!"

Tohsaka is seriously angry. "——————" Yeah, that makes me happy. I finally realize now, because Tohsaka is that kind of person.

>>724920475
still nothing.
now, pic related? that stirs something in me.

>>724911212 (OP)
Sakura is a disgusting wormslut
Saber is best girl
Deen stay night is kino

>>724911212 (OP)
I don't care about his ideals because the story, characters and setting bend over backwards in strange positions to make Shirou survive instant death situations and let him get off scot free over and over again. Meanwhile epic demigod heroes of legend get defeated by random trained assassins that work as school teachers.

A woman wrote this because drama is seen as the crux of this series while the battles get the "it's okay to not make total sense because it gives me a cool character moment" treatment and I despise it. Don't introduce a battle royale if you can't write fight scenes.

>>724921837
>Don't introduce a battle royale if you can't write fight scenes.

Zero and Strange Fake have you covered

>>724914963
It is the one that ends all the falsehoods in Fuyuki, the others keep all the problems around.
-The real Holy Grail system is torn down, no one else can replicate the ritual and this is good because Angra Manyu had tainted it so no outcome would be good for humanity.
-Sakura is released from the Makiri household and practices, she has been a victim of their vicious practices since the 4th Holy Grail war had started.
-Rin and Ilya fix their own family issues with Rin being noticed by Zelretch himself.
-Shirou doesn't end up becoming Archer which is a positive outcome considering Archer hates his own fate. He gets to live with Sakura, Rin and Rider and eventually gets to meet Bazett and Karen.

Saber is just an ideal. Eventually Archer gets to Avalon to live with her forever, but this "eventually" is too many lives of suffering and constant summoning as a counter guardian.

>>724915537
The puppet body was made by Touko, they are topnotch super realistic constructs that his soul will eventually reshape into the real thing. It really doesn't matter. This body is even better than his previous one and even with a weaker magical flow, it is stated he can eventually get to learn and master Unlimited Blade Works on it.

>>724923029
>Eventually Archer gets to Avalon to live with her forever

This is a retcon. There is no saving Archer, but UBW Shirou could be saved

>>724921924
Zero is 95% yapping
Strange fake is not even out in anime form

>>724923153
It's just the idealistic dreamy outcome. By the time it happens it just doesn't matter really, it exists solely for you the reader. Same as Sieg and Jeanne, they "eventually" meet on the other side of the world but that's not something that happens quick enough. Since that epilogue from Realta Nua, we have got many multiple other alts of Archer meaning that most of his fates are bound to become a counter guardian and work for Gaia for eternity.

>>724923374
read them

>still no taiga route
>still no caster route

>>724918590
>villain

WHOA WHOA WHOA BACK UP!?

since when was saber ever the bad guy?

>>724923580
HF

More selfish and self destructive really

>>724911212 (OP)
Yes. EMIYA is the proof of that. His ideals are not currently hypocritical but they lead to it in the future, where he will be led by his ideals to make a contract to be a counter guardian where he is essentially a hitman, betraying everything he attempted to accomplish. By maintaining his ideals even in the face of this ultimate truth, he is betraying himself.

>>724924354
>, where he will be led by his ideals to make a contract to be a counter guardian where he is essentially a hitman, betraying everything he attempted to accomplish. By maintaining his ideals even in the face of this ultimate truth, he is betraying himself.

What if Archer never became a counter guardian?

>>724924691
>there is a universe where there is no gar
sakura would be unraped

Pure Soul

>>724925083
>deen

That takes me back

>>724925083
did they animate the 2 vn openings or was that a different studio?

How was Archer capable of taking 6 lives off berserker again?

>>724925405
The oldest version of the VN?
No, that was tatsusomething, nobody major I think.
Deen did do the all ages version openings.

>>724924691
then Shirou would have let a lot of people die in his time in Middle East because he alone could not do much
>>724925459
pure GAR badassery

>>724923501
>castor

Nasu actually was working on that at the very start but back off before getting a working draft ;_;

>>724925848
Wish they did one for HA. Or did the adaptation for the anime.
I really love the style and im dying to see more of it

>>724927773
The original 2 openings for FSN on PC were made in-house by TM (and a bit of outside help), in contrast to the PS2 and PSV Realta Nua openings that were animated by Tatsunoko Production and Ufotable respectively. Considering it's only got variants for Fate and UBW, it's likely that it was animated sometimes in 2002-2003 when FSN wasn't going to contain HF.

https://youtu.be/VsYZy1g8jGs?si=9iHfR7PUsV1nTEXz

I love it cause it's the only true instance of Takeuchi personally having a hand in a Fate animation. Not to mention the sleek 90s look that aligns with the period the story for FSN started being written

>>724927859
>takeuchi
That makes so much sense. It perfectly captures his style and the feeling of the vn.
Is there anything else hes animated?

>>724921924
was true assassin finally revealed properly or did he just job to someone and died in a stupid way?